The 'spine' has nothing to do with 'middle' and only refers to the strength and experience running through a side. In top form most knowledgeable fans and pundits would regard Costa, Courtois, Kante, Matic, Azpilicueta and Hazard as top class players. That group (Kante aside) is what will possibly give the team their 2nd title in 3 seasons.
2016/2017 Title race
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The 'spine' has nothing to do with 'middle' and only refers to the strength and experience running through a side. In top form most knowledgeable fans and pundits would regard Costa, Courtois, Kante, Matic, Azpilicueta and Hazard as top class players. That group (Kante aside) is what will possibly give the team their 2nd title in 3 seasons.
The title is Chelsea's to lose, and fair play to Conte he's really got it together after the early setback at Arsenal. We could have a big say in it still though.
After United play Liverpool in mid-January we have a lot of winnable games. The most difficult, on paper, would appear to be City (A) in late February. That game might be rescheduled though, as United could get to the League Cup final. That gives United a fairly comfortable run of fixtures until mid-April when we host Chelsea.
Conceivably United could going to the spring with serious momentum, enough to upset the teams above us and throw the cat among the pigeons. I recognise that would also mean we would have some massive games in April and May. We are not as far out of it as many would have us think though.
After United play Liverpool in mid-January we have a lot of winnable games. The most difficult, on paper, would appear to be City (A) in late February. That game might be rescheduled though, as United could get to the League Cup final. That gives United a fairly comfortable run of fixtures until mid-April when we host Chelsea.
Conceivably United could going to the spring with serious momentum, enough to upset the teams above us and throw the cat among the pigeons. I recognise that would also mean we would have some massive games in April and May. We are not as far out of it as many would have us think though.
You make a good point, the players' implosion last season seems to have made a lot of people forget that this exact same squad won the league in 2014/15 and that Mourinho deserves a lot of credit for setting up the groundwork for this current run. He won the league with these players, yet people only focus on his supposed meltdown last season, and this has been discussed to death, but really Jose can't be blamed when it was the toxic attitude of his prima donna players that led to the decline (as evidenced by their immediate resumption of 'normality' this season).
Now, when people laud Conte and assail Mourinho because the latter has 'spent lots of money on players', I hope they realise that Conte has the luxury of having the likes of Fabregas, Willian and Terry as bench players. He has options at his disposal. Mourinho left the club having built 80-90% of the foundations, including winning the title and giving them real experience of how to handle the run-in. Conte is benefiting tremendously from inheriting Mourinho's work.
But of course, the media narrative will say that Mourinho NEVER cares about the foundations of the club, and always thinks short-term, etc etc. I am looking forward to these hacks being proven wrong when he builds an even stronger foundation for UTD.
Jose, dear Jose, cannot be blamed when almost all of those same players are now storming the Premier League? He created the toxic attitude. There's a reason he doesn't stay beyond three years. His methods of motivation cannot work long term.
What an utterly bizarre post. Wow.
I'd probably try and cling onto this wishful thinking as well if I were a scouser. Can't be nice seeing Jose of all people turning Utd around.
I think longevity is dead as far as football management is concerned. Wenger is the last of a dying breed.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if three years from now, three or four clubs making up the current top six have new managers.
So the same players (as you put it) shoulder no blame?
Whilst the manager is / was ultimately responsible you have completely overlooked that the players jacked it in, much like some did under Moyes.
The clubs that Mourinho has been in charge of barely keep managers for a 1 yet alone 3 seasons, and the club where he did a fantastic job (Inter) we will never know what he could have gone on to continue to achieve there as he left to go to Madrid.
Unlike Klopp (in his final season with Dortmund), Mourinho wasn't given the chance to turn Chelsea around. In fact Dortmund were 17th in December in Klopps last season, in a league that hasn't got the depth of the Premier League, managing the 2nd best team in the division - for any major team, in another league he would have been given the chop (rightly or wrongly). Klopp was given time and pulled them back to 7th, over 20 points behind where they had finished the previous season.
So, perhaps his methods of motivation / tactics are questionable.
This.
It wouldn't surprise me either. Even though it certainly is possible, perhaps not as many as three or four, but rather one or two.
I also agree with the general notion that longevity for football management is a thing of the past. It's just the way the sport has become. Certainly for the bigger clubs expecting near-immediate results, in all of Europe, not just the Premier League.
People keep saying "we dont just need chelsea to fail we need everyone else to fail too." No we dont. We are close enough to all the other top 4 teams. The furthest one away is 5 points away and we play them next.
If we beat Liverpool next, we are as much in the race as they are.
If we beat Liverpool next, we are as much in the race as they are.
Yes. Though unlikely as it is, if we do overtake Chelsea at all this season then it's because we're on a ridiculous run of form, the sort of run that would see us overtake everyone else as well as Chelsea.
One game at a time. The favourites change every few months.
I have read so many Man City/Liverpool/Chelsea have the league sewn up already this season and we're only in January.
There are many twists and turns to come yet.
I have read so many Man City/Liverpool/Chelsea have the league sewn up already this season and we're only in January.
There are many twists and turns to come yet.
Excellent post sir, this sums it up perfectly.
We need only worry about the gap between us and the top of the league.
We need not worry about the number of teams in between us and the top of the league.
In the title math, it's the points that matter, not the number of teams. If we finish 1 point behind the leaders in May, but in 5th position on GD, it will really be a freak occurrence and I don't really think anyone would begrudge that. In the first place, it is not likely to ever happen!
This is basically the common refrain of everyone and anyone who hates Mourinho and hates UTD.
It is not even a logical point to make.
Please remember that football players are highly-paid professionals, they are paid to do a job. Would it be acceptable if your office colleagues decided one day that they would not put in any more effort at work, because they disliked their boss? In that scenario, who do you think deserves to be sacked? The boss? Or the subordinates?
Chelsea is a toxic club that has been plagued by player power for years. Mourinho is not the first manager to be axed due to player power, and he won't be the last. In the past, the likes of Terry and Drogba could essentially get the manager fired by speaking directly to Roman and the board. These days, it is Costa and Hazard. While they are good players, they also acted in a manner that can only be described as unprofessional and dishonourable. A true professional does his best at his job no matter the circumstances, and whether he likes his manager or not.
I do not understand how people can use Chelsea's current league position to justify the (incorrect) assertion that Jose is a poor manager, or that Chelsea's implosion last season was either solely or mainly his fault.
If I were in charge of a group of people who "downed tools" at work and simply refused to do the jobs for which they were hired, I would sack the whole lot of them, no questions asked, and no matter what their excuse was.
You get to question your manager's methods after you have done your job and by raising feedback properly through the correct channels. Not simply refusing to do your job. It's not acceptable.
Keep telling yourself that.
And while the Scousers constantly harp on Jose's poor half-season at Chelsea (the ONLY poor season in his entire career), they conveniently ignore the fact that Klopp also presided over a massive meltdown at Dortmund that, as another learned poster has mentioned in this thread, had them as low as 17th at one point.
Double standards?
Yep. And they totally ignore the fact that Mourinho could've stayed at Inter for as long as he wanted. He built an empire there the players and the whole club adored him. First manager in Italy to win the treble too which is some achievement when you think of the great managers who have managed in Italy over the years. People like to downplay his time at Inter for some reason...
Klopp's final season was no disaster. They were in a terrible position in December because they were decimated by injuries, not to mention having to sell their best players to Bayern every year. When their injured players returned they leapt up the table and reached a domestic cup final. Hardly a failure. And the Dortmund board were desperate for him to extend his contract.
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By all accounts he struggled at Madrid, though I do think he is a great manager. 1 title win and a Copa, he looked a broken man leaving there. Granted he faced the best team of probably all time and pushed Pep to the verge of a mental asylum but all in all I'd say he scored a c grade at Real. The rest of his record is phenomenal particularly winning the CL with both Porto and Inter.
1 title win and one Copa, another Copa final, 3 CL semis in a row when the best they achieved prior to his arrival in 7 years was round 1/16. The spine of the team he left won the CL the year after, players signed by him like Ozil, Di Maria fetched a handsome profit for them. Yet Mourinho is the one leaving teams in the shit.
And also worth bearing in mind that the title is their 2nd in 10 years. None of his successors so far has managed to achieve the same feat, against a weaker Barcelona. He's not without faults, but the way Mourinho is treated by a big section of the press and football fans can only be described as driven by bias.
Im judging him as one of the best, just like I'd give Pep at Bayern a c grade for not winning the CL. He done about par for the course but he did come out of the whole experience rattled and slightly humbled. Indeed a great manager but I'm genuinely calling it as I see it. He went there to knock Barca off their perch and for the most part got beat. I would say the whole experience for him was a struggle. I also never said he left the team in shit, that was Rafa's missus.
No they weren't. Klopp left because his cycle there was over and everyone knew it. Outside of england, when a cycle ends its the manager that changes not the players
Pep inherited a Bayern Munich that just won the treble, in a league where he had financial monopoly and picked off the best player from their closest competitor. Mourinho came in a Madrid dressing room still steeped in player power from the likes of Raul, Guti, also perennial underachievers in the CL that lost to the mighty Lyon 3 times in 7 years in 1/16 KO round. If he gets a C for not winning the CL and more domestic titles against the best team in living memory for most people then Pep's time at Bayern must be a D or worse.
I think he did fall just short and should have beaten Bayern in 11/12 in order to win against Chelsea, but giving him a C and say that a failed experience undermines what was a profound achievement from him in making Madrid into an European elite again after years of failure.
How can Pep winning a 1.5 horse race 3 times in a row with 3 CL semi's be worse than Jose winning a 2 horse race once and getting absolutely pummeled by his rival 5-2 in terms of matches won be more successful. Your reaching if you think Madrid were struggling. Pellegrini scored almost 100 points with that team, which Jose then strengthened.
I think Jose himself bar the humbled bit would have went their expecting more and would see it as I do. He went in the confident Jose way, did ok but not near as well as he himself would have expected, taking eye gate etc... into consideration I think Pep and Jose wore themselves out somewhat and neither are quite the same because of it. Thats not to say they are bad or failures but that they are different to they were before. He went there the over confident special one and left a completely different man, falling out with Ramos, Casillas and even saying Ronaldo "thought he knew everything". He called out Pepe as practically finished too after he defended his comment about Casillas. He also stated his final season at Real was "the worst of my career". The Barca v Real rivalry hit Jose hard and regardless of how you sugarcoat it, he won 2 trophies of 9 available to him in the same period Barca won 4 2 x league titles, a CL and a Copa.
You can't give Jose credit for another mans title or does Pep get Lucho's and Tito's credit too because its still his core.
I'm not disputing Jose is one of the best but his Madrid time by his own admission was a struggle, and his results not as good as HE himself would have expected.
There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to begin.
Have you ever played or coached world class athletes? While you may think they are robots they're not. They are subject to everything else that you and are and that includes a toxic work environment.
Yes Chelsea is such a toxic club that right after the toxic element (Jose) they played better and this season they are now 5 points up with a game in hand.
There's a reason why Jose lasted more than 3 years anywhere and it's due to his behavior and treatment of others.
Hazard was injured for most of last year, but in your deluded manner of thinking his injuries had nothing to do with his lack of form.
You only have to look at Jose's behavior earlier this season to see he's a narcisstic sociopath. He never takes any responsibility for losses or poor decisions, and I mean never. I challenge you to find any quote for Jose where he says he is to blame for a loss or a draw.
They still finished 7th and missed out on qualification to the CL. How can that not be a disaster?
He started really well at Mainz but towards the end he relegated them and couldn't get them back up so he quit. Oh and they were promoted without him 2 seasons later.
Perhaps he is mentally weak and can't motivate teams when things don't go his way...
See any manager looks shit if you dig deep enough.
Genuine response when did Fergie ever blame himself directly after a game?
No clue but probably never. Don't see what thats to do with Jose?
Jose brought in Willian, Pedro, Costa, and Matic from the current first team. The rest were assembled by Conte, Hiddink, even Benitez. So to give Jose all the credit for this 'infrastructure' is stretching it a bit.
The majority of players he recruited in his second spell were dross, made little impact and/or moved on quickly: Falcao, Begovic, Remy, Coudrado, Schwarzte, Schurrle, Zouma, Kennedy, Eto'o, Rahman, Etso, Salah, Van Ginkel and a bunch of other players I've never heard of. Also, Jose was in charge when De Bruyne and Lukaku left the club, both disastrous decisions with hindsight.
Genuine response when did Fergie ever blame himself directly after a game?
Sorry responded to wrong post, have asked the question to AllezLesDiables.
If Chelsea win tonight, it's over just after 20 games. Incredible. But if they lose, the first 5 teams will be within 8 pts with 18 games to play. Even United will have an outside chance to win the title.
He also recruited Fabregas and was responsible for making the decision to recall Courtois and make him the #1 and sell Cech. That was a gutsy decision, as Cech had been a legend for them.
Those are all key players who have been instrumental for them and are still instrumental.
Who has Conte recruited apart from Kante and their mediocre left wing back?
Jose built the core of the their side and turned them into champions. Conte inherited Jose's foundations and is reaping the fruits of his labour. Yet, everyone seems to think Jose is a short term manager who never does any foundation-building work - very wrong.
He is doing the same with us at the moment and I expect to see Bailly and Mhkitaryan become truly world class. And as for Pogba and Zlatan, well, they are already world class.
Sorry, an 8 point lead in January doesn't mean the season is "over". We had an 8 point lead in APRIL a few seasons ago and still lost the title. April. Not January. Nothing is decided regardless of the Spurs/Chelsea result though of course a draw would be very nice for us.
How quickly people forget.
'Season over', 'title sewn up'. We traditionally only got into our stride after christmas, everything about this team at the moment suggests they are on the same trajectory as that. We were twelve points behind newcastle in January. You should all know what happened next.
'Season over', 'title sewn up'. We traditionally only got into our stride after christmas, everything about this team at the moment suggests they are on the same trajectory as that. We were twelve points behind newcastle in January. You should all know what happened next.
Great post. It's all part of the delusion that mangers like Pep and LVG ''lay foundations'' and bad old Jose leaves clubs in ruin, which is anything but the truth. The truth is that Chelsea and Madrid make their own mess half of the time. They're two famously circus like clubs.
I think it's unfair to judge him on some of those players, as he wouldn't have recruited them, I'm sure there is an interview somewhere (when he was still at Chelsea) when he made reference to the fact he didn't know some of the signings but respected the views of the people that bought them in.
De Bruyne, yes, that was a mistake, but all managers make them, Fergie and Stam springs to mind. Lukaku, would he get in above Costa? I would suspect he would still be playing 2nd fiddle.
Fergie and Pogba also springs to mind. In fact, that decision could have cost SAF another Champions League. Instead he fielded Cleverly and whoever else vs Madrid. Although we did still amazingly play well over the two legs.
That Newcastle team bottled it though. Chelsea's team has plenty of players that have won leagues and cups before. Apart from that United/Newcastle season most of the other title comebacks have been when teams had games in hand.
If we won the league this season it would easily be the most remarkable title we've ever won and would require winning almost every remaining game.