I agree. The league is too far this season I think.
2016/2017 Title race
- Thread starter Adisa
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I agree. The league is too far this season I think.
It's obviously early days, but a Chelsea win tonight will go a long way..
It is not that they bottled it, it is that every team, every season, has a bad patch, we have had ours, Chelsea's is yet to come. Even the arse invincibles went through a patch of 5 games with 1 win and 4 draws. The reason fergie's teams won so often was that when it got to the sharp end of the season, they were in there stride and playing their best. That puts pressure on everyone else, we frequently started quite slowly with fergie, this year with the new players was the same.
I am not saying we will win the league, all I am saying is that after all this time, I am amazed people still think this league can be over at christmas.
Have you forgotten the draw against Swansea followed by back to back losses, that caused us to change system in the first place?
Dystopian reading here, United will go and win 25 in a row while all other contenders falter without hope. 
That said, a Tottenham win tonight would spice up the race for sure, but I know Conte enough to suspect he has been sticking naysaying punditry all within the Chelsea dressing room to keep attention very high.
That said, a Tottenham win tonight would spice up the race for sure, but I know Conte enough to suspect he has been sticking naysaying punditry all within the Chelsea dressing room to keep attention very high.That
Don't point that out!!
That never happened. You WILL have your blip. According to the optimists on here!!
Nah, Contes doing a magnificent job and you're in a position now to manage the rest of the season well. The consecutive win record won't dazzle a guy like Conte. If he thinks a draw tonight is sufficient he won't be caught out in going all out for the win.
The points lead you guys have means draws against your rivals will see you home as long as you continue to smash the dross.
I don't think Pool, City Spurs or Arsenal ate capable of hauling you in and I think the stupid points we dropped has left us too far back.
Don't point that out!!
That never happened. You WILL have your blip. According to the optimists on here!!
Nah, Contes doing a magnificent job and you're in a position now to manage the rest of the season well. The consecutive win record won't dazzle a guy like Conte. If he thinks a draw tonight is sufficient he won't be caught out in going all out for the win.
The points lead you guys have means draws against your rivals will see you home as long as you continue to smash the dross.
I don't think Pool, City Spurs or Arsenal ate capable of hauling you in and I think the stupid points we dropped has left us too far back.
The record thing is actually more of a hinderance than anything good for us at the moment. Obviously that kind of thing is nice to have on the books, but its putting extra pressure on the players at a point where I'm sure the club just wants to put our heads down and keep getting points where we can. If we can get another win tonight to extend the lead on Liverpool, then I won't be sad if the next game is a draw.
Agreed.
I don't understand this idea that everyone above us must falter for us to have a chance. Its as if people don't realise the teams above us must play us and each other. Points will be dropped e.g. City lost to Arsenal, Liverpool beat City, Spurs beat Chelsea.
Of course, if you wanted to be anyone right now it'd be Chelsea. Chelsea can afford to have the odd loss like last night's. They are not that far ahead of the other teams though, including ourselves. Chelsea have to play Liverpool and Arsenal in the next four weeks. That's two games where they could draw or lose. The gap to the top might be significantly smaller once winter ends.
Souness was right to say Man Utd's in the race. If United keep winning, including against Liverpool in 10 days time, and Liverpool beat Chelsea at Anfield on 31 January, we'll be 7 points off top spot come February. We threw away an 8 point lead in April 2012. Why does nobody think we, or one of the sides above us, could make up a smaller gap over the space of 3 months?
Those anointing Chelsea as champions before the frost melts need to hold their horses. Yes, if Chelsea keep their heads they will win it. There's 18 games to be played still though. That's a lot of time for Chelsea to have a hiccup. Also, once you get to late March, early April and May, its not just about how good your team is. Its about how well they deal with pressure. How good they are at breaking down teams desperately fighting to avoid relegation. We still don't know if this Chelsea team has it mentally. It collapsed woefully last season after winning the title, it didn't respond to the challenge last night. Who knows which team will prove to have the guts to take squeaky bum time come late spring?
Fabregas has only recently just come back into the fold. Pedro and Willian have been in and out of the team too. Matic was dropped recently as well.
The simple truth of the matter is that he inherited and didn't build most of the infrastructure you speak of. Jose inherited those and repeaed the fruits of his other's labour, just as he did at Inter and Real before: if you had to build a side from all of his signings in his second spell they would struggle big time.
Courtois was performing virtual miracles at Atletico, hardly the risky decision you are making it out to be. If they didn't put first team football on the table for him he may well have walked.
Much as you want to underscore his input, Conte promoted Moses, Alonso, re-signed Luiz and went to a back three. If Jose was the grand master you were making him out to be he would have kept Lukaku and De Bryune and not signed duds like Coudrado and others.
A few questions.
Didn't Jose buy Costa, Fabregas, Matic & Willian - all of which played a huge part in his team winning the league?
Lukaku is a good player, but he isn't better than Costa and wouldn't be playing for Chelsea now, so other than having him as a squad player / super sub how can that be a mistake? Also RE Lukaku for all the hype he has received his still finds himself at a mid table Premier League team and I couldn't see him being the star striker at any of the current top 6.
De Bruyne was clearly a mistake, all managers make them, we sold Stam too early and although I can't be bothered to list other endless examples you can point to Hart being booted out of City as a huge error of judgement.
Last Mourinho has bought some players who have been duds, which manager hasn't. Fergie bought Milner, Djembe, Bellion and Kleberson in one summer, none of which were anywhere near good enough.
I had a dream last night that Spurs last game at WHL v United was a title decider. Winner takes the league.
I once had a dream that Ireland successfully invaded America so it is what it is
I once had a dream that Ireland successfully invaded America so it is what it is
To be fair, in a way Ireland has invaded America successfully.
We don't have Fergie this time and we have Europa league with plenty of other competition games though.
We may not have Fergie but we have Mourinho. No current manager in the league has more experience in title run-ins than Mourinho. Moreover, no current manager in the league has won more titles (even in England alone) than Mourinho.
Perhaps it also warrants mention that player for player we have arguably the best team and squad depth in the entire league.
10 points is nothing. We can close the gap.
Best run of wins (EPL only)
Chelsea (13 games)
Arsenal (6 games)
Man City (6 games)
Spurs (5 games)
United (6 games)
Few things to note, Chelsea's winning streak when put into this context looks even more remarkable and yet it is crazy to think they're only 10 points ahead of United. Just goes to show how long a season is and even one big run of results doesn't necessarily put you in an invincible position.. it really is a marathon. That said, Chelsea have built up a good cushion and can afford the odd drop in form and don't have to put a good run of results in the same way because the others always seem to go on a small run and then drop points eventually.
Liverpool haven't had a long run of winning results but what they do well is respond very well to a bad result aka a draw and then get back to winning ways again. Klopp has built some good spirit and resilience in that squad, they're not as reliant on long runs to keep momentum going.. they can press the reset button and approach the next game after a set back with a good mindset.
Arsenal, usually start with a good run and then tail off.. and then end with a good run of results to nick top 4. This year will be harder than ever for them though.
City after that initial run have really struggled to put a run of results together and really need to get their act together. That brilliant start has disguised just how bad they have been results wise recently.. they're going through a very bad moment.
United's run doesn't look as special as we thought when put into context, but if we beat Liverpool it goes to a 7 match streak.. and 2 big scalps, and it would reinforce the notion that maybe we are a second placed team in the making. That Liverpool game is massive, as it really does tell us how good this United side is. What I will say is that our run of wins hasn't really been that convincing, many of those games were closely fought.. we had vulnerable moments in alot of those games.
Chelsea (13 games)
- Hull (a), Leicester (h), United (h), Southamton (a), Everton (h), Boro (a), Spurs (h), City (a), WBA (h), Sunderland (a), Palace (a), Bournemouth (h), Stoke (h)
- Leicester (h), Chelsea (a), Hull (h), Swansea (a)
- Boro (a), Everton (a), Stoke (H), City (H)
Arsenal (6 games)
- Watford (a), Saints (H), Hull (a), Chelsea (H), Burnley (a), Swansea (H)
Man City (6 games)
- Sunderland (H), Stoke (A), West Ham (H), United (A), Bournemouth (H), Swansea (A)
Spurs (5 games)
- Hull (H), Burnley (H), Saints (A), Watford (A), Chelsea (H)
United (6 games)
- Spurs (H), Palace (A), WBA (A), Sunderland (H), Boro (H), West Ham (A)
Few things to note, Chelsea's winning streak when put into this context looks even more remarkable and yet it is crazy to think they're only 10 points ahead of United. Just goes to show how long a season is and even one big run of results doesn't necessarily put you in an invincible position.. it really is a marathon. That said, Chelsea have built up a good cushion and can afford the odd drop in form and don't have to put a good run of results in the same way because the others always seem to go on a small run and then drop points eventually.
Liverpool haven't had a long run of winning results but what they do well is respond very well to a bad result aka a draw and then get back to winning ways again. Klopp has built some good spirit and resilience in that squad, they're not as reliant on long runs to keep momentum going.. they can press the reset button and approach the next game after a set back with a good mindset.
Arsenal, usually start with a good run and then tail off.. and then end with a good run of results to nick top 4. This year will be harder than ever for them though.
City after that initial run have really struggled to put a run of results together and really need to get their act together. That brilliant start has disguised just how bad they have been results wise recently.. they're going through a very bad moment.
United's run doesn't look as special as we thought when put into context, but if we beat Liverpool it goes to a 7 match streak.. and 2 big scalps, and it would reinforce the notion that maybe we are a second placed team in the making. That Liverpool game is massive, as it really does tell us how good this United side is. What I will say is that our run of wins hasn't really been that convincing, many of those games were closely fought.. we had vulnerable moments in alot of those games.
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The Tottenham game you put in amongst our second winning run was an EFL Cup game.
Thanks mate, changed it - if you could spoler your quote to avoid confusion - would be grateful
I think some United fans need to get this into their heads. Fergie has gone and things are completely different.
That is a great lost but it's about points accumalated and not winning streaks.
Iam not having a go Iam just saying.
I agree, I was just trying to look for patterns and also wanted to see how good United's recent run is and try to put it into context. All it confirms is that our recent form good as it is, means nothing if we were to lose against Liverpool and it isn't anything to write home about just yet. Our recent run has led to quite a few posters saying we are shoe-in for second place now, but our run is unremarkable at this moment in time.
A great lost ? I meant post obviously.
United are on blob at the minute but I haven't seen United play to be honest.
I think when you start playing in Europe again will be interesting. I mentioned this last week with someone and they posted your results since you havent played in Europe.
Their may be a correllation . I hope there is .
Andy Dunn, who I'm sure you know is never a United lover, is refusing to rule out United winning the title.
You basically need to go on an unbeaten run like Chelsea to stay in the title race.
You mean winning run. We haven't lost since we played Chelsea. The problem for us have been draws, like the last minute ones against Arsenal and Everton. The lads are in the groove now though. I'm not thinking we'll be drawing against Burnley and Stoke in the second half of the season.
Its not particularly likely that United will win the title, its not totally ridiculous though. We threw away an 8 point lead in April 2012. Making up 10 points between now and mid-May does not seem so unthinkable by comparison.
What has Fergie being gone got to do with us having a chance, a slim chance, of winning the title?
Mourinho has got us playing again, and now we've stopped shipping last minute equalisers he's got us winning again too. Where will that get us this season? God knows.
If we lose to you lot on 15 January 2017 all of this optimism may look silly. If we win though...
...all I'm saying is don't count us out yet. 10 points to make up over the best part of four months is not that much.
We know he's gone but I think he would be the only capable of pulling a rabbit out of the hat in clawing back Chelsea's lead was the point.
You will need to get that down before the end of January as history tells us that otherwise it's not going to happen, and in fact ideally you should be leading the table but at the very worst in 2nd, because over the past 17 years no team outside the Top 2 has won the league after 23 weeks and even then the team in 2nd has only won it twice, the other 15 times being won by the team leading at that stage.
Pinched from another site :
Premier league table - Week 23
00 - 25 games played. Leaders: Man Utd. 2nd: Leeds. Difference: 6 pts. Champions: Man Utd
01 - 24 games played. Leaders: Man Utd. 2nd: Sunderland. Difference: 13 pts. Champions: Man Utd
02 - 25/24(Ars) games played. Leaders: Man Utd. 2nd: Arsenal. Difference: 1 pts. Champions: Arsenal
03 - 23 games played. Leaders: Arsenal. 2nd: Man Utd. Difference: 5 pts. Champions: Man Utd
04 - 24 games played. Leaders: Arsenal. 2nd: Man Utd. Difference: 2 pts. Champions: Arsenal
05 - 23 games played. Leaders: Chelsea. 2nd: Arsenal. Difference: 10 pts. Champions: Chelsea
06 - 23 games played. Leaders: Chelsea. 2nd: Man Utd. Difference: 14 pts. Champions: Chelsea
07 - 23 games played. Leaders: Man Utd. 2nd: Chelsea. Difference: 6 pts. Champions: Man Utd
08 - 23 games played. Leaders: Man Utd. 2nd: Arsenal. Difference: 0 pts. Champions: Man Utd
09 - 22(Man Utd)/23 games played. Leaders: Man Utd. 2nd: Chelsea. Difference: 2 pts. Champions: Man Utd
10 - 25 games played. Leaders: Chelsea. 2nd: Man Utd. Difference: 2 pts. Champions: Chelsea
11 - 24 games played. Leaders: Man Utd. 2nd: Arsenal. Difference: 5 pts. Champions: Man Utd
12 - 24 games played. Leaders: Man C. 2nd: Man Utd. Difference: 2 pts. Champions: Man C
13 - 23 games played. Leaders: Man Utd. 2nd: Man C. Difference: 5 pts. Champions: Man Utd
14 - 23 games played. Leaders: Man C. 2nd: Arsenal. Difference: 1 pts. Champions: Man C
15 - 23 games played. Leaders: Chelsea. 2nd: Man C. Difference: 5 pts. Champions: Chelsea
16 - 24 games played. Leaders: Leicester. 2nd: Man C. Difference: 3 pts. Champions: Leicester
Source: https://www.premierleague.com/tables?co=1&se=8&mw=1-23&ha=-1
@Rafateria. Very interesting. I'm a bit shocked. Would have thought there was a couple of late bolters through the years but obviously not!
I for one don't think we'll win, or even challenge for, the title this season. Jose took too long to find his best 11 and in that time we dropped too many points. I'd bite your hand off for even a 4th place finish right now.
2 consecutive and 3 out of 4 seasons out of the champions league is completely unacceptable given what the club has blown on transfers and paying off managers.
We've a job in our hands to finish above 2 very good clubs given how strong the teams above us are as well as superior goal difference and points tallies.
That might not sit well with some of the overly optimistic (deluded?) fans on here. But that's the reality.
I'll probably be countered with "but we have Jose" by one of the aforementioned super fans. Unfortunately those clubs above us aren't managed by Rodgers, Redknapp, AVB etc anymore.
I for one don't think we'll win, or even challenge for, the title this season. Jose took too long to find his best 11 and in that time we dropped too many points. I'd bite your hand off for even a 4th place finish right now.
2 consecutive and 3 out of 4 seasons out of the champions league is completely unacceptable given what the club has blown on transfers and paying off managers.
We've a job in our hands to finish above 2 very good clubs given how strong the teams above us are as well as superior goal difference and points tallies.
That might not sit well with some of the overly optimistic (deluded?) fans on here. But that's the reality.
I'll probably be countered with "but we have Jose" by one of the aforementioned super fans. Unfortunately those clubs above us aren't managed by Rodgers, Redknapp, AVB etc anymore.
Are we going to get 1-2 players during January will also have a lot of effect once Europe starts again. Our ability to rotate in the midfield is limited at the moment. If Jose brings one or two backups then I am not that worried.
What has that got to do with our title hopes?
We are on a great run of form at the minute, but i think we're just too many points behind the leaders to mount a challenge. I'd love to be wrong. We'd have to go on a chelsea-esque win streak to challenge, and while we're on 6 at the moment, i can't see us getting to 13 (purely by the law of averages)
I'd seriously be happy with top 4 - just get us back in that champions league, that's what i miss. Get a couple of players in over the summer, and next season.. we go again & aim higher.
I'd seriously be happy with top 4 - just get us back in that champions league, that's what i miss. Get a couple of players in over the summer, and next season.. we go again & aim higher.
Absolutely nothing. I think a lot of rival fans are going to get a big wakeup call over the next few seasons regarding us. We may not have SAF anymore, but we don't have LVG or Moyes in charge either. We have one of the top three managers on the planet who will only add more quality than what he has now, which is still quite a lot. Like it or not, we will probably win the title within the next two-three seasons.
Don't forget to mention that we don't have the old Ed Woodward. We now have the Ari Gold or the Charlie Runkle of the footballing world in charge.. and we cannot fail now
I was flabbergasted too, I didn't imagine anything like that. Even taking out the big leads (found in 3 seasons) that still leaves 14 seasons where even small leads of 0-6 pts were only overcome twice in those fourteen seasons.
I thought if we could hang onto the coattails of the front runners this month and next (as I think we, as in Liverpool, have the hardest schedule during this time) then our easy (easier) final 2 months, along with the EL / CL commitments of some teams, would give us a very good shot at the title since we could do well in the head-to-heads without the added pressure of Euro football (that goes for Chelsea too of course). That idea has been blown out of the window - if we don't beat United, and probably Chelsea too on the 31st January, history dictates that our title hopes are gone. Of course records are there to be broken but it would surely be very much an outside bet.
You've a shout definitely. Match Chelseas results til you play them and then beat them (which I think you will) and it's a 2 point lead for them come start of February.
For the record I think you'll draw with Utd and Chelsea will draw with arsenal.
You've been annoyingly consistent all season. With coutinho and matip back and well rested you're in an enviable position. Any new signings linked? A similar player to Mane could be the signing that makes all the difference.
I think this season is the one for Liverpool. Next season with champs league might stretch resources that bit too much, even allowing for inevitable new signings.
For the record I think you'll draw with Utd and Chelsea will draw with arsenal.
You've been annoyingly consistent all season. With coutinho and matip back and well rested you're in an enviable position. Any new signings linked? A similar player to Mane could be the signing that makes all the difference.
I think this season is the one for Liverpool. Next season with champs league might stretch resources that bit too much, even allowing for inevitable new signings.
I think the problem is that when people see, say, a 10-point gap, they only think of it as a gap having to be narrowed...as opposed to one that then has to be maintained if you narrow that gap.
It's more than possible that United could find themselves close to Chelsea if the league leaders hit some poor form and we maintain our good form...but, statistically it's incredibly likely we'll have a blip again at some point (even if it's just dropping a few points), which then allows Chelsea to extend that gap. Again, if you look at it from another perspective, with 18 games remaining it's not that United have to break down the gap...but more the case that in the span of 18 games they have to do 10 points better off than a Chelsea side who have only dropped 11 all season.
Statistically, that's incredibly unlikely. Ridiculously unlikely, actually. The interesting thing about your 23rd game stat is that while the vast majority of the title winners did go onto win the title...many of them actually lost their leads between that period, or came close to doing so.
City were top in 2012, but soon found themselves eight points behind with six games to go. But, again, form reversed and they then hit form while we struggled...and they regained that lead. City were top after 23 games in 2014...but fell behind to Liverpool. Again, form reserved, and they went back to top again.
Obviously it's quite tenuous because such statistics are there to be quashed and broken, and no doubt some team will do so in spectacular fashion some season, but if you take United from having 21 points after 14 games...to have a realistic chance of winning the title we'd probably have to get about 60-65 in the 24 after that. We've done great in that respect since the 14th game, but it's likely we'll have a small blip at some point (perhaps a tiny one), which would all but kill any lingering title hopes.
Yes as you say, closing a gap is all very well but then being able to outlast the previous leaders, who have obviously been playing very well all season up to that point, is something else again, as you pointed out ... with the 23 match leaders losing the lead but eventually still finishing on top the vast majority of the time.
I'd say that also has a lot to do with scheduling. The chasing team have an easy run which sees them dissipate the lead, even eradicate it altogether, only to then hit a tough schedule themselves and without maximum points they enable the previous leader to go top again .. and stay there.
This applies to Top 4 just as much.
This is exactly right. We have picked up wins at the expense of West Ham, Middlesborough, Sunderland, West Brom, Palace & Tottenham. Of those Spurs were the only team above us and we were at home.
Definitely no new arrival in time for United, but if our players stay fit we'll still have a very strong side and even though Mane can be a match winner he's not been in great form of late, even though our record would suggest otherwise. His form has been patchy but he has the valuable knack of popping up with an assist or goal regardless.
A front line of Coutinho (scoring and assisting in a 5-0 training match game today) - Firmino - Lallana with Wijnaldum in behind and Origi + Sturridge to come off the bench should mean the attack is the least of our worries and hopefully the goals continue to flow. If Matip, Milner and Henderson are all back then we would not be far off full strength for United + Chelsea even without Mane. N.B. Sturridge played in the training match today easing fears of any absence due to the ankle injury he received.
There could be a fast goal scoring winger signed this window if all the rumours come to fruition - I doubt anything more than that. Note that Gomez played 45 mins for the U23's yesterday and Klopp has virtually confirmed he'l start in the FAC on Sunday. If he does well and progresses as expected, to regain his previous form, then that's more cover all the way across the back four.
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