He bid and valued Herrerra at £22m and wasn't interested in making him a club record signing at £34m, what's so hard to accept with that? I'm by no means a Moyes fan but I think that's a fair stance to take rather than pay £12m (an extra 54%) over what he believed he was worth.
İlkay Gündoğan Transfer Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
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He bid and valued Herrerra at £22m and wasn't interested in making him a club record signing at £34m, what's so hard to accept with that? I'm by no means a Moyes fan but I think that's a fair stance to take rather than pay £12m (an extra 54%) over what he believed he was worth.
Do you think it's Moyes sitting at the negotiating table, arguing about the finer points of transfers?
It's Woodward and his team that conduct our transfer business. The "major goof up" on the Herrera and Fellaini deals is solely on Woodward. In the Herrera case it was due to Woodward's lack of knowledge about the finer points of Spanish tax law, and the Fellaini deal was due to the Herrera deal falling through. In Coentrao's case, it isn't anyone's fault since it was Real's failure to buy their preferred targets that soured the deal. In fact, even the Fabregas deal is attributable to him, given that he's literally the man responsible for closing the deals on all of our transfer targets. If Barcelona/Fabregas's agent gave us clear signals that he was an unattainable target, then it's Woodward's job to relay that the Moyes.
Moyes only identified the targets, it's Woodward's job to actually get them to the club, financially.
Well then we seriously need to question his judgement. In which world is Fellaini worth more than Herrera? Not only is Herrera infinitely better than Fellaini, but also a couple of years younger. Apart from that it was known to everyone that he had a release clause and how Athletic Bilbao deals with release clauses.
Buying Fellaini was an act of desperation. He knew we needed a midfielder and we ended up on the last day needing one. He trusted Fellaini so it made sense to him.
You are again making a lot of assumptions and absolving Moyes of almost all the blame. Woodward did not know this, Woodward did that. Poor ol' Woodie getting the stick for his manager's incompetence.
Coentrao was a last minute effort from us because Moyes kept drooling over Baines throughout the summer. And from what I have read we could not get the paperwork completed in time for the loan move. What could Woodie do? Force Perez to hand over Coentrao to us without the formal work. It was all down to Moyes not wanting to go for anyone apart from Baines.
Herrera was a massive feck up by the club. Woodward may not know Spanish laws but Moyes was equally dumb to not know Bilbao will not let go of a Basque player below the release clause with so little time left in the window. Woodward is not from this background so could actually be given the benefit of doubt. Moyes claims to be a "student" of the game. How on earth could he be this stupid?
How do you know that the Fellaini deal was pushed through because we did not get Herrera. From all that we have heard, Moyes wanted Fellaini all through the summer along with Baines. But we could not finalize the deal.
And your last point is nothing but a shot in the dark about how transfers work. The guy I quoted said he works in journalism in London and all the senior journos say that the manager identifies the target, the club then try and get the player within a specific budget and then the final decision is on the manager to approve that budget. You are claiming that Moyes has no say on the financial side of things when the other guy claims to know that the manager has the final say. I based my post on what he had said. If you have something to back your statement up, I will gladly agree with you.
You're having a go at me for assumptions and you're coming up with literally just assumptions in return. Here's a fact. David Gill was responsible for transfer negotiations under SAF. Ed Woodward took his job, and the responsibilities that go with it. Therefore he is now responsible for transfer negotiations.
- that is the definition of Woodward's job. Transfer paperwork.
- again, literally Woodward's job, transfer paperwork and the financial side of transfers.
- Solely going off what we know about how club transfers worked under Fergie, in that it was Gill and his staff responsible for negotiating most the the monetary side of things.
Quotes:
"This summer's market is proving an awkward baptism for the manager, whose business is being handled by a novice in dealing with transfers, Ed Woodward, the executive vice-chairman who replaced the experienced David Gill"
"David Moyes had the funds and ambition to bolster his squad, but the word within the football industry was that Woodward was learning the hard way that buying players was a wholly different ball game to selling shirt space and sponsorship deals to companies across the globe. "
"Woodward insisted that United were one of the most powerful clubs in the world and that there was no limit to Moyes’s budget, but he lacked the contacts book and credibility of his predecessor David Gill to come up with the goods."
From Woodward himself:
"With Fabregas that was an approach specific to the selling club. They have an ownership structure that means there has to be debate before a player is sold.
"It was disappointing that we didn't sign more players, but I always knew it was going to be a tough window.
No no, I'm not ruing the fact that Fergie isnt here. All I was saying is that a player of the type that Barkley is, would be nailed on for interest from Fergie, at the very least. My point is that he likes players of that kind (attitude-wise) and British in nationality.
Herrera was priced at £30m, not £34m. If we wanted to pay no more than £22m we shouldn't have even picked up the phone.
If Moyes gave Woodward half a day to complete the paperwork, then how is it Woodward's fault? The work was not the problem, the lack of time to get it done was. Which brings us to Moyes holding out for Baines when he should have identified other targets much earlier instead of the last friggin day.
Of course it is part of Woodward's responsibility, but given that he was completely new to this side of things, you can understand his naivety. But Moyes being so thick as to not know about Bilbao do their transfers was not forgivable. He has been a manager for over 10 years and does not know one thing which half the caf would know is bizarre. Their policy of only signing Basque players meant that they could not have found a replacement for Herrera in 2 days. Thus they were hardly going to budge from their stance. Woodward made that pretty clear when he said that the Bilbao president was a friend and he tried to get it done. But since their asking price was too much, they could not go through with this transfer. If Moyes had tried for it earlier maybe, just maybe, we might have got Bilbao to lower their asking price. But Moyes was on a merry chase of Fabregas half the summer and the other half was for trying to get both Baines and Fellaini for less than what we eventually paid for Fellaini.
No one is actually denying that Woodward has to take some blame for it. But ultimately it is the manager who has to make quick decisions on whether we should target other players. Moyes obviously gave Woodward the go ahead to keep trying for Fabregas. Woodward did his best to screw it up more than it already was by offering peanuts for a player of his worth. Not to mention that it was beyond stupid to try and go for Fabregas immediately after Barca had sold his replacement in Thiago.
From what we have read, Moyes dithered on the Thiago deal as he had not scouted him enough. I agree that it may not be completely true but the club is hardly going to come forth and admit that. We had him lined up and then just never went in for him seriously. Whichever way you look at it, it simply does not reflect well on Moyes.
What's all this old ground got to do with gundogan?
Stay on topic
Stay on topic
On Gundogan, I've always wanted him but am beginning to have a few doubts as to whether or not he'd be a good buy at this point. If he's fit, then I can't think of a better signing for our midfield in world football, he'd be the perfect player for it. His injuries are beginning to seem more serious then just one bad run of luck, and people wonder if he'll ever play again. In our situation we'll need to take a risk on someone as we don't have the Champions league, and it could turn out to be a master stroke if he gets fit and we get him for as little as 20m. If we get him and another then I'd be okay with it. I'd be a lot more hesitant if it was just him though.
You can't have it both ways. He did basically that exact thing with Fellaini as what you're saying about Fellaini, and everyone who knows anything about football knows that Herrera is just simply better by a long shot. Sure I can understand not wanting to pay 32m or whatever it was (ranges between 30 and 35m depending on who you ask really) for Herrera, as that is about 5-10m too high for him, but by no means is Fellaini ever worth 27.5m. He's a 15m player after last season at the very most. That's the thing. Why did he go after Fellaini, when we all knew what kind of player he was like, especially Moyes, and at that price, when he could have bought a player like Herrera that we are sorely lacking for only a tiny bit more? It's also very obvious that Herrera is more suited to a top club then Fellaini, especially an attacking team like United.
With regards to Gundogan, I think he's worth the risk if, and only if, we sign another top class midfielder before him.
Yep totally man!
Get 3 top class CM's in & i'd sign Gundogan for a reduced "potential cripple" fee & have him on the "rub & tug" treatment regime for a sustained period also...
Unless he get's back to action soon, there is no chance we will sign him IMO.
After what happened with Hargreaves the club won't want to take the risk.
After what happened with Hargreaves the club won't want to take the risk.
Has there been any official line from Dortmund recently?
His future is to be decided this month apparently.
http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1...borussia-dortmund-future-become-clear?cc=5901
http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1...borussia-dortmund-future-become-clear?cc=5901
Ilkay Gundogan’s future is set to be decided this month, Borussia Dortmund CEO Aki Watzke has told Der Westen.
Gundogan has not played a minute of first-team football since August 2013, leading to suggestions his career could be in jeopardy.
GettyImagesGundogan has been linked with several European clubs.
On Monday, the German football weekly kicker ran a story on the midfielder, who has been out of action since suffering a back injury last summer.
In January 2014, it appeared that the 23-year might return to first-team action, however bronchitis disrupted his winter training camp.
An inflamed nerve then prolonged his absence, leading to uncertainty about whether Gundogan would be back in time for the 2014 World Cup.
Germany coach Joachim Loew told kicker: "The most important thing now is that Ilkay becomes pain free and can return to team training in Dortmund.
"You shouldn’t rush it. Ilkay is still young, he can play a lot of international tournaments. When he gets healthy, the future is his."
Gundogan is continuing with his rehabilitation, although could face surgery which would delay his return -- and the potential setback has led to rumours in Germany that his career could be coming to an end.
However, Thomas Hennecke, the author of the kicker piece, tweeted on Monday: "He will return. Certainly. Everyone I talked to said speculations about an early career end are stark nonsense."
Gundogan is currently under contract at Dortmund until 2015, and he has beenlinked with several European top clubs including Manchester United, Real Madrid and Barcelona.
With Dortmund wanting to avoid losing another star name on a free transfer, like Bayern Munich-bound Robert Lewandowski, Watzke has told Der Westen that a decision about Gundogan’s future is imminent.
“I am under the impression that everyone involved now knows that a decision has to be made this month. Let’s see what this decision will be,” Watzke said, but did not gave away if he has hope that the midfielder will prolong his stay in Dortmund.
“If I had [an idea], I would not tell you,” he added.
Ruhr Nachrichten are reporting that Dortmund could be willing to let him go for as little as £15 million. You'd have to be wary of his injuries at that price, but I'd probably take the risk.
I'd take him in a hearbeat for that price. In an ideal world, you would negotiate a short term contract based on appearances, but that would be unlikely to happen considering he is still young. Worth such a risk though since this is his first major injury and he's brilliant.
I'm unsure dithering Dave will go for it anyway.
Where do they write that? I can't find it on their page.
Absolutely. If he doesn't extend we'd be mad to not try for him at that price. But it's David"Dithering Dave"Moyes we're talking about. Probably will spend a fortune on worse players and he'll end up at Liverpool
Got it from this article.
Manchester United told they can sign German midfield target for £15m or less
Gundogan has long been my first choice for who I'd love us to sign but being out for an entire season with an injury that may not be curable is a big risk even at a discounted price. It must be very serious if he's missing out on the world cup because of it.
Such ashame. I think he should stay with Dortmund for two more years though. Just try and stay fit.
Hard to comment really as I don't know the extent of the injuries and the severity, but it's definitely a concern
I think he's worth the gamble. There's the risk of him being another Hargreaves or we could conversely have a RVN situation.
Considering his quality I'd be happy with us taking a punt on him.
Considering his quality I'd be happy with us taking a punt on him.
I want to know what it feels like to Pip Barcelona for a player, we owe them one after the thiago nonsense from last summer. Just do it.
Just remembered how brilliant he was on FIFA 14 linking up with Kagawa, Mata, Reus, Kroos and Rooney.
We should sign him.
We should sign him.
They just guess that his asking price probably would've been around €25-30m when Watzke said that he does not want a second Lewandowski scenario and they add that his injury will only have lowered that number.
this is probably the article they are 'quoting' from:
http://www.ruhrnachrichten.de/sport...uf-Guendogan-nimmt-kein-Ende;art11635,2327591
as you can see the article not once mentions the number 15m (or 18.2m). Just another case of British quality journalism. The German source just sums up the situation, they don't claim any inside knowledge.
This was exactly my team too at one point, and I signed Mata before he came to us too. The Kroos -> Reus ball left cross-field was a personal favourite of mine.
Would be such an odd transfer at this point. Has anyone been bought with a potentially career ending injury before?
Well, at least it would possibly help explain why Barcelona's doctor saw him in the first place. To weigh up whether he was worth the wager, even at a cut rate transfer price. Then Barcelona's ban which put them possibly out of the running and Dortmund et al are looking to profit from damaged goods? Very odd transfer possibility
Well, at least it would possibly help explain why Barcelona's doctor saw him in the first place. To weigh up whether he was worth the wager, even at a cut rate transfer price. Then Barcelona's ban which put them possibly out of the running and Dortmund et al are looking to profit from damaged goods? Very odd transfer possibility
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Hargreaves to United....
Owen played from the start though, right?
Yeah, did we actually know about the tendonitis with Hargo? I know we bought him after spending most of the year out with a broken leg, can't remember if we spotted the complications in the medical or not.
It's a tough one to gauge, given that centre mid is the key area to strengthen this summer. He's perfect, but we need one or two to come in straight away and be reliable there. If it was as "cheap" as £15m then you'd think he'd be worth it as an additional longer term project, but then I'm not sure why Dortmund would sell him for that price unless they were pretty sure he was perma-crocked. Really hope he gets back to his best though, whoever he's playing for (*unless it's another english club).
It's a tough one to gauge, given that centre mid is the key area to strengthen this summer. He's perfect, but we need one or two to come in straight away and be reliable there. If it was as "cheap" as £15m then you'd think he'd be worth it as an additional longer term project, but then I'm not sure why Dortmund would sell him for that price unless they were pretty sure he was perma-crocked. Really hope he gets back to his best though, whoever he's playing for (*unless it's another english club).
Yeah he did. He was out for pretty much the entire season whilst recovering, the year before he came to us. Arrives at United and plays in August. Little did we know the leg would be no problem to his career, rather the tendonitis which the medics totally missed out. A herniated disc may or may not be permanently damaging, we should obviously hope not for Ilkay's sake.
Klopp confirmed that he wont play another match this season, which also means, that he is going to miss the world cup.
Can't help but feel he's done at this level.
According to a reliable reporter of a local newspaper he is set to extend his contract in the next weeks. Best solution for him.
Is there a source for that somewhere?
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