Liverpool 0:0 Manchester United

ROFLUTION · Oct 3, 2017

Withstand their gegenpress for 60 minutes, then kill their weak defence with physique and Martial in the last 30.

Kostur · Oct 3, 2017

Adebesi said:
I think there was an element of this under SAF as well but not to the same extent you see with Mourinho. For SAF it was more a case of acknowledging when an opponent deserved that kind of respect - when you were facing off against a particularly good team. But this kind of pragmatism is right at the centre of what I guess Van Gaal would call Mourinho's football philosophy, he will adapt for anyone, not just the teams he doesnt feel confident going toe-to-toe with.

That's my impression anyway.

To be fair sacrificing one of your players to man-mark Bale at Spurs (Jones), Alonso at Madrid (Welbeck iirc), Pirlo (Park) and I think Ronaldo by Jones again is as pragmatic and adaptive to the opponents as it can be. We've done that before and, being pragmatic person myself, it's the right approach imo.

I 100% expect Fellaini to start and use him and Lukaku as two target men to avoid Liverpool's pressing, we won't go all out attack either.

Dembeza · Oct 3, 2017

Adebesi said:
I think there was an element of this under SAF as well but not to the same extent you see with Mourinho. For SAF it was more a case of acknowledging when an opponent deserved that kind of respect - when you were facing off against a particularly good team. But this kind of pragmatism is right at the centre of what I guess Van Gaal would call Mourinho's football philosophy, he will adapt for anyone, not just the teams he doesnt feel confident going toe-to-toe with.

That's my impression anyway.

Yes the Mourinho part I understand, that's his philosophy, always has and always will be.

My question is directed to the fans, it seems like we are buying into the way Mourinho approaches a game, we are pragmatic as well. Every big game we worry first about how we will stop the opponents, was it always the case or is it something we are adopting because Jose is our manager now?

Scarlet Spider · Oct 3, 2017

I long for the days when we would go into these games with the opposition worrying about having to adapt their games to deal with us!

Kostur · Oct 3, 2017

Scarlet Spider said:
I long for the days when we would go into these games with the opposition worrying about having to adapt their games to deal with us!

Away to Anfield? Like 10 years ago or so?

BluesJr · Oct 3, 2017

Any chance Pogba will be back for this? Could the whole November thing be a Jose bluff or will he really be out until then? Had absolutely nothing concrete from anyone which makes me slightly suspicious.

Adebesi · Oct 3, 2017

Dembeza said:
Yes the Mourinho part I understand, that's his philosophy, always has and always will be.

My question is directed to the fans, it seems like we are buying into the way Mourinho approaches a game, we are pragmatic as well. Every big game we worry first about how we will stop the opponents, was it always the case or is it something we are adopting because Jose is our manager now?

I think fans take a lead from the manager to a certain extent. Fans opine on what they think we should do, but often in the context of what they expect their manager to do, or at least to consider doing. So I would again refer back to the SAF comparison. I think under him, fans wouldnt think about adapting to the lowlier teams in the PL as it wasnt something they had seen SAF do, it wasnt part of their mindset. If we played Madrid or Barca or even Chelsea or Arsenal we might propose the man marking thing, or a change of shape, because we knew it was something SAF might do. We were all second guessing him as much as saying what we thought should happen. And now there is a lot more of it because we see our manager adapts in just about every game, we know that is what he is likely to do so people suggest what form it should take.

I guess if we had a manager like Guardiola who was less likely to adapt the strategy for specific opposition people would be less inclined to suggest such changes and speculation would be centred on things like squad selection instead.

Dembeza · Oct 3, 2017

Adebesi said:
I think fans take a lead from the manager to a certain extent. Fans opine on what they think we should do, but often in the context of what they expect their manager to do, or at least to consider doing. So I would again refer back to the SAF comparison. I think under him, fans wouldnt think about adapting to the lowlier teams in the PL as it wasnt something they had seen SAF do, it wasnt part of their mindset. If we played Madrid or Barca or even Chelsea or Arsenal we might propose the man marking thing, or a change of shape, because we knew it was something SAF might do. We were all second guessing him as much as saying what we thought should happen. And now there is a lot more of it because we see our manager adapts in just about every game, we know that is what he is likely to do so people suggest what form it should take.

I guess if we had a manager like Guardiola who was less likely to adapt the strategy for specific opposition people would be less inclined to suggest such changes and speculation would be centred on things like squad selection instead.

Great post, that explains it quite well. Thank you

11101 · Oct 3, 2017

First time in a while I think they're so poor and we're so good that their game raising won't matter.

whatwha · Oct 3, 2017

Hope Rashford and Martial both start.

Trizy · Oct 3, 2017

Just give the ball to Martial. He'll make light work of their defenders.

sglowrider · Oct 3, 2017

12OunceEpilogue said:
Agreed, I like that analysis very much and I could see Martial doing a similar job to Rashford in that formation.

I'm struck by how Van Gaal's 5-3-2 put us all to sleep because the front players were incapable of breaking quickly. This has been solved by Jose's personnel and I very much look forward to seeing it in action (if Lukaku doesn't get beasted by Bobby Mart and miss the game ).

But LVG gave me good health in terms of extra sleep. I slept through 50% of the matches by HT.
Even watching matches at OT, I was numbed by the sideways passing.

Rob · Oct 3, 2017

Haven't dreaded a game like this for a while. We've looked very ordinary since the Arsenal game and you on the other hand are in brilliant form. Can't decide how I'd like to set up either.

It could be:

-----------Firmino---------
Mane----Coutinho---.Salah
---Henderson-Wijnaldum--

...which looks good on paper, but leaves our abysmal defence quite exposed.
or:

Coutinho---Firmino---Mane
Wijnaldum--Henderson--Can

..which I'd probably go with, and then bring on Salah as an impact sub when the inevitable high tempo game has made an impact on your players. Either way, you are big favorites imo. You can go on about how this is "Liverpools cup final" and all, but it's rather important to you as well. Not just to keep up with City, but also for you fans, as you already have 8 pages of pre match chat 11 days before it kicks off

12OunceEpilogue · Oct 3, 2017

Rob said:
Haven't dreaded a game like this for a while. We've looked very ordinary since the Arsenal game and you on the other hand are in brilliant form. Can't decide how I'd like to set up either.

It could be:

-----------Firmino---------
Mane----Coutinho---.Salah
---Henderson-Wijnaldum--

...which looks good on paper, but leaves our abysmal defence quite exposed.
or:

Coutinho---Firmino---Mane
Wijnaldum--Henderson--Can

..which I'd probably go with, and then bring on Salah as an impact sub when the inevitable high tempo game has made an impact on your players. Either way, you are big favorites imo. You can go on about how this is "Liverpools cup final" and all, but it's rather important to you as well. Not just to keep up with City, but also for you fans, as you already have 8 pages of pre match chat 11 days before it kicks off

It's definitely a big game for both sides and for both fan bases. I'll take the favourites tag but it doesn't sit well with me on a trip to Anfield, which joking aside is always a daunting prospect for United fans.

On the point about your exposed back four I don't know how you'd go about addressing it without Keita. I think Can can be very good at times but I'm not keen on Wijnaldum and Henderson.

Rob · Oct 3, 2017

12OunceEpilogue said:
It's definitely a big game for both sides and for both fan bases. I'll take the favourites tag but it doesn't sit well with me on a trip to Anfield, which joking aside is always a daunting prospect for United fans.

On the point about your exposed back four I don't know how you'd go about addressing it without Keita. I think Can can be very good at times but I'm not keen on Wijnaldum and Henderson.

Neither do I. Our players simply aren't good enough defensively. Based on this season, it's not just our back five that needs an overhaul. I'd be tempted to play Milner in this game as a pure dm, only to protect the defence.

Can't wait for Keita to arrive and surely some decent defenders at some point if/when Klopp realizes they're actually more needed than bloody Oxlade-Chamberlain.

P-Nut · Oct 3, 2017

Hope Mourinho goes full on counter attack in a 4321 formation.

DDG
Valencia Bailly Jones/Smalling Darmian
Herrera Matic Fellaini
Rashford Martial
Lukaku

That front 3 would tear Liverpools defence a new one on the counter.

hubbuh · Oct 3, 2017

It feels harsh dropping Young after his little renaissance at left back but I don't know how confident I'd be if he had to deal with Salah all game. Blind feels the safer, albeit more conservative option (he scored that lovely goal against them a couple of seasons ago though tbf).

We all know Mourinho's tendencies towards pragmatism against top opposition but this current Liverpool team is there to be got at. It goes without saying though that they'll see this as their chance to turn their season around, the gameraising bastids. That said we've got the class to tactically outplay them and the strength to bully them. I'm saying 1 nil to us.

Shiva87 · Oct 3, 2017

Great discussion @Adebesi and @Dembeza

Just to add to that, in addition to the manager, Mourinho has built a squad with players having specific qualities to take advantages of each opponent differently. A lot of the first XI selection then comes down to the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents and which players are best suited to that.

For e.g. with a team like Liverpool and their high press, its very likely that he will (1) play Fellaini to get balls straight from GK/ CB to the last third, (2) start 3 in midfield to give Matic some support to deal with their counter-attacks (most of which start in the middle third of the pitch from the space where the CMs operate), and (3) not play Smalling given his weakness in passing the ball out from the back.

However, against a team like Chelsea - who don't press as high but also counterattack at lot, he will probably play 2 in midfield and not play Fellaini (which is a clear tactic to by-pass the defence).

ants7 · Oct 3, 2017

Was over-optimistic and went for 3-1 win for us. But I'd be very happy to take all three points with 90+5" own goal.

They probably will start with the "heavy metal football" from the start with Mane/Salah running their butts off. However, they can't keep this up for 90 minutes. As long as our defense will stay focused, we'll be fine and surely have our own chances against their crap defense. I'd actually keep Martial on the bench for this one to be a super-sub around the hour mark.

Can't remember when I was that optimistic (although bit nervy still) about this fixture.

DomesticTadpole · Oct 3, 2017

Scarlet Spider said:
I long for the days when we would go into these games with the opposition worrying about having to adapt their games to deal with us!

You mean the games they played us off the park and we snatched 1-0 wins. We could have easily lost those games. If that was making them worry about us it was a very risky game to play.

Dembeza · Oct 3, 2017

Anirudh said:
Just to add to that, in addition to the manager, Mourinho has built a squad with players having specific qualities to take advantages of each opponent differently. A lot of the first XI selection then comes down to the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents and which players are best suited to that.

It's very interesting when it's put like that, because compared to other teams our team looks very diverse. We have players that suit possession football, counter attack, crossing... any philosophy you can think of. The only team that comes close to us is Chelsea and it's not a suprise since Jose was their manager.

I also feel that it's one of the reason why it's difficult to see our game plan especially for fans of our rivals. They look at our team and they can't tell which philosophy our team fits. When you look at city and liverpool you can tell how they are going to set up, so it's easier to say they are more of a threat or they have better players, because all of them fit into that system.

Looking at our team the whole team is rock solid, there's no weakness because every player fits into a particular system we want to adopt because Jose isn't limited to one philosophy like other managers.

I don't remember who said this, but the person said that you never know which Jose team is going to show up, imagine being an opposition manager having to prepare to play United, where do you even start? If you are lucky to figure out how we will play then we can simply change during half time and play differently and catch you off guard. That in itself is our main strength and the reason why Jose is very successful and will never be found out.

Dembeza · Oct 3, 2017

Dembeza said:
It's very interesting when it's put like that, because compared to other teams our team looks very diverse. We have players that suit possession football, counter attack, crossing... any philosophy you can think of. The only team that comes close to us is Chelsea and it's not a suprise since Jose was their manager.

I also feel that it's one of the reason why it's difficult to see our game plan especially for fans of our rivals. They look at our team and they can't tell which philosophy our team fits. When you look at city and liverpool you can tell how they are going to set up, so it's easier to say they are more of a threat or they have better players, because all of them fit into that system.

Looking at our team the whole team is rock solid, there's no weakness because every player fits into a particular system we want to adopt because Jose isn't limited to one philosophy like other managers.

I don't remember who said this, but the person said that you never know which Jose team is going to show up, imagine being an opposition manager having to prepare to play United, where do you even start? If you are lucky to figure out how we will play then we can simply change during half time and play differently and catch you off guard. That in itself is our main strength and the reason why Jose is very successful and will never be found out.

For interest sake, how can Liverpool neutralise us? How can United be stopped?

MThomas · Oct 3, 2017

Never will be found out :lol:

Christ.

Look, the problem isn't finding out how to stop anyone, the problem is achieving it

Treble · Oct 3, 2017

Dembeza said:
For interest sake, how can Liverpool neutralise us? How can United be stopped?

By scoring as many goals as United or more?

How did Stoke stop United? As bad as Liverpool look now, they are way more potent in attack than Stoke. If they score first, they may be happy to press us only in their half and counter with some of the paciest forwards in the league. Jose won't underestimate them, all the more because Pogba will probably miss the game.

sammsky1 · Oct 3, 2017

It’s a great question. Given our confidence and form, I’m not sure how an opposing manager should set up to beat us.

Away from home, Mourinho could park the bus with 2 banks of 4 or a back 6 with 2 holding midfielders (a la Chelsea last season) and yet still be very potent on the counter attack. I’d be very tempted to play both Rashford and Martial as right and left wing and Fellaini at 10 purely for that purpose.

One way might be for Liverpool to go against their high press and simply concede possession in our half and tempt us to over commit.

The tactical nuances of this match are fascinating.

sammsky1 · Oct 3, 2017

Treble said:
By scoring as many goals as United or more?

How did Stoke stop United? As bad as Liverpool look now, they are way more potent in attack than Stoke. If they score first, they may be happy to press us only in their half and counter with some of the paciest forwards in the league. Jose won't underestimate them, all the more because Pogba will probably miss the game.

All the more reason to start Rashford and Martial as defensive wingers. Lingard can also feature for that role.

Kapardin · Oct 3, 2017

For those who say we can't start Young at LB as he's not good defensively, he started during that 0-0 at Anfield last season and against Chelsea at OT, when he had defensive duties as well. And in both games his defensive work was quite good.

Quite unfortunate that Sturridge had a stinker, I am sure Klopp will start Firmino against us, and whenever he plays, he links up well with Mane and Salah and is key to them scoring as well. Sturridge would not be a great threat in comparison.

Play a midfield of Matic, Herrera and Pogba. I'd prefer the team to be a bit more defensive than the gung-ho approach we take at home. Ideally, something similar to that Chelsea game at OT, where we played a definite, defensive game but were also efficient in attack. The perfect balance.

Treble · Oct 3, 2017

Kapardin said:
For those who say we can't start Young at LB as he's not good defensively, he started during that 0-0 at Anfield last season and against Chelsea at OT, when he had defensive duties as well. And in both games his defensive work was quite good.

Quite unfortunate that Sturridge had a stinker, I am sure Klopp will start Firmino against us, and whenever he plays, he links up well with Mane and Salah and is key to them scoring as well. Sturridge would not be a great threat in comparison.

Play a midfield of Matic, Herrera and Pogba. I'd prefer the team to be a bit more defensive than the gung-ho approach we take at home. Ideally, something similar to that Chelsea game at OT, where we played a definite, defensive game but were also efficient in attack. The perfect balance.

Spot on, IMO. Sturridge is a good finisher but he doesn't offer the same threat as Firmino who has a much better understanding with the other forwards and works harder to boot.

You think Pogba will be ready?

mav_9me · Oct 3, 2017

Scarlet Spider said:
I long for the days when we would go into these games with the opposition worrying about having to adapt their games to deal with us!

Fergie always played on the counter at Anfield. Don't you remember the smash and grabs with O Shea and Tevez?

saintquin · Oct 3, 2017

Hope you stuff them. If not at least win without them thinking they're unlucky!

Kapardin · Oct 3, 2017

Treble said:
Spot on, IMO. Sturridge is a good finisher but he doesn't offer the same threat as Firmino who has a much better understanding with the other forwards and works harder to boot.

You think Pogba will be ready?

Nah, I meant Fellaini. Subconsciously typed Pogba, guess I am anxious for his recovery. :lol:

GM K · Oct 3, 2017

Kostur said:
To be fair sacrificing one of your players to man-mark Bale at Spurs (Jones), Alonso at Madrid (Welbeck iirc), Pirlo (Park) and I think Ronaldo by Jones again is as pragmatic and adaptive to the opponents as it can be. We've done that before and, being pragmatic person myself, it's the right approach imo.

I 100% expect Fellaini to start and use him and Lukaku as two target men to avoid Liverpool's pressing, we won't go all out attack either.

Good points.

Just wondering (and I know Jose won't do it), if we were to go all out against Liverpool - no holds barred; a real slugfest, which team will come out better? Man to man, our first eleven looks more dangerous or am I wrong?

GM K · Oct 3, 2017

Firminho + Salah + Mane + Coutinho + Sturridge VS Lukaku + Rashford + Martial + Miki + Mata

Which front-line is more deadly?

Irrational. · Oct 3, 2017

Why is this game so far away?

I hope there are no more international breaks until after Christmas.

Klopper76 · Oct 3, 2017

You're all overstating our pressing ability. The stats show that we've dropped off in terms of pressing the opposition this season (likely a result of the extra European games).

GM K said:
Firminho + Salah + Mane + Coutinho + Sturridge VS Lukaku + Rashford + Martial + Miki + Mata

Which front-line is more deadly?

A while ago I would've argued ours is, but yours is far more clinical at the moment.

buck3y3nut · Oct 3, 2017

Klopper76 said:
A while ago I would've argued ours is, but yours is far more clinical at the moment.

Completely agree! Lukaku will have a field day against Lovren and Moreno unfortunately. And I do not think Sturridge will be part of our front.

Hugh Jass · Oct 3, 2017

They are at home and will be fired up for it. We will sit back and try to get one against the run of play.

Adisa · Oct 3, 2017

Klopper76 said:
You're all overstating our pressing ability. The stats show that we've dropped off in terms of pressing the opposition this season (likely a result of the extra European games).

A while ago I would've argued ours is, but yours is far more clinical at the moment.

Your pressing that is below par will be in top form. I can guarantee it.

Klopper76 · Oct 3, 2017

buck3y3nut said:
Completely agree! Lukaku will have a field day against Lovren and Moreno unfortunately. And I do not think Sturridge will be part of our front.

What worries me is if Moreno bombs forward and leaves space in behind. When Lovren gets pulled into that wide area to cover, he struggles more than he normally does.

We need to get the first goal in this. If United score first I struggle to see us getting anything.

Ban · Oct 3, 2017

Imagine if we score in the first 5 minutes. That would be a blast. I expect them to come at us all guns blazing as to prove it's all god and there's no crisis. We need to soak that pressure and drive the game to our lane, make them play in our rhythm. First goal whoever scores is the key. If they score they'll be more confident and just continue to come to us, if we do I expect us to close the shop and hit them on the counter.

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