Amorim's Rebuild

[Woziak]

Can’t just throw the kids in just for the sake of it. They have to be ready or else they’ll flop and lose the confidence.

Look at Obi, nervous and trying to control the ball in some situations but failing to do so. Gotta ease them into it.

I’m not suggesting that we start them, but we should be filling the bench in any first team match.

 

[giorno]

Xabi is playing 442 against Bayern tonight and has played 4231 or 433 quite a lot this season, Guardiola, Flick and Arteta set up 433 and then go to 325 when they are dominating the ball so really poor examples,

They aren't. The structure doesn't make that much of a difference, it's the personnel that matters here. Tactically the main difference defending in a 541, 442 or 433 is how many forwards you ask to stay up

the Madrid derby last night, two much better coaches than ours decided to play 442 against each other,

yeah, Madrid is one of the few top sides that doesn't use a back 3 and doesn't play 3 CBs. Liverpool, PSG and Bayern are the same this season. Atletico switches quite a bit

so not many really use 5 defenders with 3 CB’s and 2 Defensive Midfielders with 2 inverted narrow 10’s, especially in front of 75,000 fans at home!

That's the thing - playing 5 defenders and 2 defensive minded midfielders. That's a personnel issue, not a structural/tactical one

 

[Woziak]

They aren't. The structure doesn't make that much of a difference, it's the personnel that matters here. Tactically the main difference defending in a 541, 442 or 433 is how many forwards you ask to stay up

yeah, Madrid is one of the few top sides that doesn't use a back 3 and doesn't play 3 CBs. Liverpool, PSG and Bayern are the same this season. Atletico switches quite a bit

That's the thing - playing 5 defenders and 2 defensive minded midfielders. That's a personnel issue, not a structural/tactical one

He never played this way with sporting, I just don’t understand why he continues to play this way, he would have been better keeping Rashford until Summer as he’s still the club’s best finisher and used him as a lazy 9, even that version of Rashford is better than Höjlund, he should have tried Ganaucho as left or right wing back that switched with Dorgu just to give us more threat and pace, I’ve never seen a United team/Squad with such a lack of attacking pace and threat.

He’s taken only 18 with him against Real Sociedad, So only 7 on the bench tomorrow rather than the 9 and probably no pace!

Imagine looking at a bench with Casemiro, Lindelof, Eriksen?

Antony and Rashford should only have been allowed to leave with suitable replacements?

 

[giorno]

The decision on Rashford clearly came from above, otherwise sure, I don't disagree he's making you worse than you could be with his choices

Though the squad is poorly built in general

 

[Top_Bins]

He never played this way with sporting, I just don’t understand why he continues to play this way, he would have been better keeping Rashford until Summer as he’s still the club’s best finisher and used him as a lazy 9, even that version of Rashford is better than Höjlund, he should have tried Ganaucho as left or right wing back that switched with Dorgu just to give us more threat and pace, I’ve never seen a United team/Squad with such a lack of attacking pace and threat.

He’s taken only 18 with him against Real Sociedad, So only 7 on the bench tomorrow rather than the 9 and probably no pace!

Imagine looking at a bench with Casemiro, Lindelof, Eriksen?

Antony and Rashford should only have been allowed to leave with suitable replacements?

The same Rashford who didn't want to train properly?
He burned his bridges when Amorim would have given him a chance.

 

[Zumbi]

Sorry, I may not be a great student of tactics but I think you are completely wrong. Playing 5 notional CBs (when you list 4) is different to formation. Stones regularly plays in midfield. Pep rarely uses 3 CBs in a classic 3 at the back, his set up is much more fluid than Amorim's with one CB effectively playing as a DM. You are also wrong to somehow claim Liverpool, Barca etc play '3 at the back in possession'. Players pushing forward to overload midfield and wings is completely different to 3 at the back. Leverkusen are a rarity that does play more 3 at the back (which can become a 5). So if Amorim's system is some enigma, why is the manager himself saying it will take a long time and require lots of time on the training field? Why are teams finding it so easy to score agaist us even when we field 5 defenders and 2 DM?s. So we are back to blaming players again, as we did with Ole, Rangnick, ETH and now Amorim. Even though its now a different squad?

Go and read a bit more on tactics and then come back with a sensible post.

Replacing the likes of Martial and Cavani with the likes of Hojlund and Zirkzee hasn’t magically fixed the squad issue, has it?

Our transfer and contract management has been appalling for years, and so we still have massive squad issues despite replacing much of the squad.

It’s tempting to say read up a bit more on our transfer failings and then come back with a sensible post…

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Antony and Rashford should only have been allowed to leave with suitable replacements?

why? what are we playing for, to come 12th? He is moving players and keeping the players he wants to work with while the results dont matter

 

[Camilo]

why? what are we playing for, to come 12th? He is moving players and keeping the players he wants to work with while the results dont matter

The results always matter. You think people are happy paying for shite football?

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

Okay, but there are also reports that Amorim was Berrada's choice and he powered that one through, so if that doesn't work out, perhaps largely because we don't have the squad for his style, then that's a big mistake. It was reported that it was a big part of the friction that lead to the sacking. And as far as I know, Ashworth had more of a background in making these kind of decisions than Berrada. Do we really want a CEO making these kind of decisions again? His main expertise appears to be in sponsorships and commerce whilst Ashworth's is in building sustainable structures and cultures and long term footballing strategy. Ashworth was the more qualified of the two to lead on the hiring of the new manager and he was ultimately overridden. If all of that was with the blessing of the owner, then that's even worse because it means we have an owner who isn't listening to the people with the most expertise.

If you read my post you'd see the part where Ratcliffe was unhappy with Ashworth because he wasn't making decisions or demonstrating any expertise in the things you're saying. He was simply outsourcing this to other groups which leads Ratliffe to the obvious conclusion of why would I pay you millions of pounds when I could do the exact same thing?

What's the difference between Ashworth outsourcing our decision making progress and Ratcliffe doing it? Ratcliffe was correct that there's no point in paying Ashworth millions of ponds a year to effectively be a middle manager.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

The results always matter. You think people are happy paying for shite football?

We could improve results short term by hiring sean dysche in all probability. Is that the right choice? Or should we take some short term pain for longer term gain, ie. slightly worse results but amorim working with players he wants to work with next season

 

[Bright_Eyes]

If you read my post you'd see the part where Ratcliffe was unhappy with Ashworth because he wasn't making decisions or demonstrating any expertise in the things you're saying. He was simply outsourcing this to other groups which leads Ratliffe to the obvious conclusion of why would I pay you millions of pounds when I could do the exact same thing?

What's the difference between Ashworth outsourcing our decision making progress and Ratcliffe doing it? Ratcliffe was correct that there's no point in paying Ashworth millions of ponds a year to effectively be a middle manager.

In that case, Ratcliffe did not do enough research on who he was hiring, and to wait so long to get him through the door only to sack him because of his modus operandi that should have been known in advance is a big mistake that has potentially set us back.

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

In that case, Ratcliffe did not do enough research on who he was hiring, and to wait so long to get him through the door only to sack him because of his modus operandi that should have been known in advance is a big mistake that has potentially set us back.

I agree that he should have learned much more about what Ashworth could and couldn't do as well as how he planned to make decisions. These would all be fairly basic questions that should have been rigorously interrogated before putting Ashworth or anyone in charge.

 

[macheda14]

Antony and Rashford should only have been allowed to leave with suitable replacements?

Rashford who has been poor for almost two seasons, said he wanted to leave, stopped training well and every United fan had come to realise might need moving on (Even before his great season under Ten Hag).

And Antony who we 100% need to sell as he has shown nothing to prove he is PL level.

Both now performing to a decent enough level that we may actually get some money for them. Yes they should have been kept and used as squad players and had their values continue to diminish.

It’s like some fans have the memory of goldfish sometimes.

 

[Camilo]

We could improve results short term by hiring sean dysche in all probability. Is that the right choice? Or should we take some short term pain for longer term gain, ie. slightly worse results but amorim working with players he wants to work with next season

If Sean Dyche could improve us then wtf is Amorim doing? This isn't rocket science.

 

[Woziak]

Rashford who has been poor for almost two seasons, said he wanted to leave, stopped training well and every United fan had come to realise might need moving on (Even before his great season under Ten Hag).

And Antony who we 100% need to sell as he has shown nothing to prove he is PL level.

Both now performing to a decent enough level that we may actually get some money for them. Yes they should have been kept and used as squad players and had their values continue to diminish.

It’s like some fans have the memory of goldfish sometimes.

No read what I said, we should have had replacements on loan before we let two attacking players leave and lo and behold Amad gets injured the very next week, incompetence at its highest level.

I would say that Rashford is actually looking like a player again, so hypothetical question, if Emery became coach at United and wanted to keep him then what?

PS for the record I looked at our goals and assists yesterday and bar Bruno who has 24 in 40 and Amad who had 16 in 36 games played, the rest are seriously shocking!

Zirkzee 7 Goal involvements in 40 matches, Hojlund 8 in 35 and Garnacho 14 in 41 and he’s missed more big chances than anyone in the PL.

Rashford combined stats for United and Villa 13 from 30 but only 1849 minutes played, he’s basically played 20 full matches and scores or assists 1 in 2.3 games, only Bruno and Amad offers more as a goal threat, he’ll finish with 15 goals this season and probably play the equivalent to 30 matches, then next year when he rips it up because he’s not exhausted we’ll be saying we gave him away for £40m, that’s not my point he should go but we should have replaced him, at the very least we should have asked for Ramsey or Bailey as a loan in exchange to share the workload.

Our current two strikers need 5/6 games to create or score a goal and ever since Ruben arrived it’s more like 12 games!

That’s shocking on a whole new level and yet our board did nothing about it in January !

 

[red_de_pologne]

If Sean Dyche could improve us then wtf is Amorim doing? This isn't rocket science.

Problem is Dyche moves us 3-4 spots up in the league with no perspective of further improvement, ambition is to build a system capable of moving us to the top. This isn't rocket science.


I'm really curious what we do next, assuming the results over next 15 games don't improve.


If we sell Garnacho, Antony and Rashford we won't really have any wingers left at the club, I would imagine it means INEOS have a manager with similar style to Amorim lined up if he can't perform next season.

 

[Woziak]

Problem is Dyche moves us 3-4 spots up in the league with no perspective of further improvement, ambition is to build a system capable of moving us to the top. This isn't rocket science.


I'm really curious what we do next, assuming the results over next 15 games don't improve.


If we sell Garnacho, Antony and Rashford we won't really have any wingers left at the club, I would imagine it means INEOS have a manager with similar style to Amorim lined up if he can't perform next season.

They will go get an experienced Coach like Allegri , Valverde or Xavi and we probably will repeat the cycle, decent for a year then back to being shite!

I’m not convinced we will sell any of them bar antony if we get a new coach next season. Amorim change of demeanour and now talking up the Europa League means the hierarchy have had very strong words with him and he’ll sink or swim based on how his team performs in the next 13 to 18 games this season?

 

[Camilo]

Problem is Dyche moves us 3-4 spots up in the league with no perspective of further improvement, ambition is to build a system capable of moving us to the top. This isn't rocket science.


I'm really curious what we do next, assuming the results over next 15 games don't improve.


If we sell Garnacho, Antony and Rashford we won't really have any wingers left at the club, I would imagine it means INEOS have a manager with similar style to Amorim lined up if he can't perform next season.

I don't understand how that makes any sense. Take the players at your disposal and get the most out of them possible. Coaches have very little else to do. Amorim isn't working on something else in the background, he's not preparing something special. This is it.


Anyway, I guess if he's given the summer we'll see, but he's got to be able to utilise regular 10s and wide attackers in any rebuild, else we end up with a bizarre unbalanced squad for the next manager. And so far he's failed completely.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I don't understand how that makes any sense. Take the players at your disposal and get the most out of them possible. Coaches have very little else to do. Amorim isn't working on something else in the background, he's not preparing something special. This is it.


Anyway, I guess if he's given the summer we'll see, but he's got to be able to utilise regular 10s and wide attackers in any rebuild, else we end up with a bizarre unbalanced squad for the next manager. And so far he's failed completely.

I agree. I think it's possible we are missing a few pieces, mostly energy. But the level he has this decent group of players playing at is absolutely startling.

 

[The-Mezzala]

I will never forgive Ten Hag for this mess of a squad he left behind. This could take years to rebuild. Feel for the manager. Not sure Sir Alex could get much more out of these players. The line up we had under Ole was on another level to this. Gone backwards fast

 

[AndySmith1990]

The attack needs a complete rebuild. Sell Antony, Rashford, Gernacho, Hojlund and Zirkzee in the summer and start from scratch.

 

[Redstain]

The attack needs a complete rebuild. Sell Antony, Rashford, Gernacho, Hojlund and Zirkzee in the summer and start from scratch.

I wouldn't trust Amorim to rebuild the attack. Say what you want about Garnacho he's not clinical and is very wasteful but he's a threat absolutely nullified in the managers use of him.

Amorim's philosophy around attacking intent is incredibly narrow and one dimensional. All it fosters is wide areas running up and down the pitch with the 10's inverting inside. All predictable and pedantic. There's no nuance or special effects to his approach.

 

[Ezkay]

I wouldn't trust Amorim to rebuild the attack. Say what you want about Garnacho he's not clinical and is very wasteful but he's a threat absolutely nullified in the managers use of him.

Amorim's philosophy around attacking intent is incredibly narrow and one dimensional. All it fosters is wide areas running up and down the pitch with the 10's inverting inside. All predictable and pedantic. There's no nuance or special effects to his approach.

 

[The-Mezzala]

The attack needs a complete rebuild. Sell Antony, Rashford, Gernacho, Hojlund and Zirkzee in the summer and start from scratch.

What ever money is available should go on the attack. If we could get Cunha and a proper number 9 would be a big boost

 

[DWelbz19]

I wouldn't trust Amorim to rebuild the attack. Say what you want about Garnacho he's not clinical and is very wasteful but he's a threat absolutely nullified in the managers use of him.

Amorim's philosophy around attacking intent is incredibly narrow and one dimensional. All it fosters is wide areas running up and down the pitch with the 10's inverting inside. All predictable and pedantic. There's no nuance or special effects to his approach.

Agreed. He has basically already purged the club of any wingers.

 

[gulli_G]

I wouldn't trust Amorim to rebuild the attack. Say what you want about Garnacho he's not clinical and is very wasteful but he's a threat absolutely nullified in the managers use of him.

Amorim's philosophy around attacking intent is incredibly narrow and one dimensional. All it fosters is wide areas running up and down the pitch with the 10's inverting inside. All predictable and pedantic. There's no nuance or special effects to his approach.

Garnacho is Rashford v2 without the attitude, I just don't see it Gernacho. Players like him and Rashford had years to practice finishing and this is what we get?

You want to criticise a manager who has just been here 3 months for Gernacho's failure to make the right pass or shot.?

 

[red_de_pologne]

I wouldn't trust Amorim to rebuild the attack. Say what you want about Garnacho he's not clinical and is very wasteful but he's a threat absolutely nullified in the managers use of him.

Amorim's philosophy around attacking intent is incredibly narrow and one dimensional. All it fosters is wide areas running up and down the pitch with the 10's inverting inside. All predictable and pedantic. There's no nuance or special effects to his approach.

Let’s ignore the fact he’s had multiple clear goalscoring opportunities again

 

[Bojan11]

Garnacho is Rashford v2 without the attitude, I just don't see it Gernacho. Players like him and Rashford had years to practice finishing and this is what we get?

You want to criticise a manager who has just been here 3 months for Gernacho's failure to make the right pass or shot.?

Years?

Garnacho is 20. Yes, he makes the wrong decisions, but we as a club have tried to turn him into a superstar when in reality he should be a bench player who comes on for an experienced player. Sadly, the experienced wingers we had like Rashford, Sancho and Antony have all disappeared in the past year.

 

[Redstain]

Garnacho is Rashford v2 without the attitude, I just don't see it Gernacho. Players like him and Rashford had years to practice finishing and this is what we get?

You want to criticise a manager who has just been here 3 months for Gernacho's failure to make the right pass or shot.?

Please read what was typed critically and not emotionally. I said Amorim's attacking Intent is the issue, he has wide players running up and down and the 10's going inside but there's no penetration, no overloads, no movement where the opposition are opened up. Amorim said as much in quotes when he stated not needing to coach attacking players in certain phases of play and it shows in this team.

I would absolutely take Garnacho running around like a headless chicken like he did under ETH compared to a manager who's pragmatism doesn't actually achieve anything. At best it produces threat so there's an element of danger for the opposition team. Additionally, Dalot / Maz playing wide to accommodate his system but the team is still poor defensively. Against Fulham where the circumstances are chasing the game for a goal and the manager is bringing a defender on because he doesn't have any managerial ability outside of his preferential system.

You don't need time to comprehend competence. There is no chance United will be successful under Amorim. You can bookmark this post in 24 months time when a new manager is in. There's no pride in this either I hope to be proven wrong and that it becomes a success but can't see it with Ruben. He's way above his level.

 

[RuudTom83]

The rebuild is +1 player.

So far very little improvement can be seen which is to be expected as per the stat above.

 

[Redstain]

Agreed. He has basically already purged the club of any wingers.

Exactly, Rashford, Anthony, Garnacho likely out and you can throw Mainoo in too. Not saying these players are world beaters but you have to assess the risk Vs reward . The reward is not even worth the risk, essentially asking for a couple of wingbacks who will run in vertical lines for 90 mins. The same wingbacks who when the opposition counter press have no option to pass into midfield when playing out from the back and will just hoof the ball upfield when there's no options because of a dinosaur double pivot.

As stated it's one dimensional garbage.

 

[Rasmus_9]

I wouldn't trust Amorim to rebuild the attack. Say what you want about Garnacho he's not clinical and is very wasteful but he's a threat absolutely nullified in the managers use of him.

Amorim's philosophy around attacking intent is incredibly narrow and one dimensional. All it fosters is wide areas running up and down the pitch with the 10's inverting inside. All predictable and pedantic. There's no nuance or special effects to his approach.

Watch some of Sporting’s games in the champions league then you’ll see that Amorims approach is not one dimensional. It looks one dimensional when the midfield and attack are as poor as the current crop we have

 

[bgoodall]

Dalot needs to go more than any other player. I have no idea what he brings to this team other than someone who is mediocre and starts every week. A wingback that can’t cross, shoot, or defend.

 

[Foolsgold21]

As much as Dalot should be the first out the door - we really need a striker, midfielder and probably a keeper more than a wing back!

 

[Hammondo]

He never played this way with sporting, I just don’t understand why he continues to play this way, he would have been better keeping Rashford until Summer as he’s still the club’s best finisher and used him as a lazy 9, even that version of Rashford is better than Höjlund, he should have tried Ganaucho as left or right wing back that switched with Dorgu just to give us more threat and pace, I’ve never seen a United team/Squad with such a lack of attacking pace and threat.

He’s taken only 18 with him against Real Sociedad, So only 7 on the bench tomorrow rather than the 9 and probably no pace!

Imagine looking at a bench with Casemiro, Lindelof, Eriksen?

Antony and Rashford should only have been allowed to leave with suitable replacements?

In what way do you mean he didn't play this way with sporting?

 

[gulli_G]

Please read what was typed critically and not emotionally. I said Amorim's attacking Intent is the issue, he has wide players running up and down and the 10's going inside but there's no penetration, no overloads, no movement where the opposition are opened up. Amorim said as much in quotes when he stated not needing to coach attacking players in certain phases of play and it shows in this team.

I would absolutely take Garnacho running around like a headless chicken like he did under ETH compared to a manager who's pragmatism doesn't actually achieve anything. At best it produces threat so there's an element of danger for the opposition team. Additionally, Dalot / Maz playing wide to accommodate his system but the team is still poor defensively. Against Fulham where the circumstances are chasing the game for a goal and the manager is bringing a defender on because he doesn't have any managerial ability outside of his preferential system.

You don't need time to comprehend competence. There is no chance United will be successful under Amorim. You can bookmark this post in 24 months time when a new manager is in. There's no pride in this either I hope to be proven wrong and that it becomes a success but can't see it with Ruben. He's way above his level.

Bookmarked, I disagree, I think given time and some players, Ruben will be successful. And he has done so at shoe string with Sporting, so he doesn't need to spend millions to get the correct profiles in.

I also believe he has exposed our players real level, they can only play counter attack football, when they are tasked to go front door or think they are clueless,lack intelligence and technically exposed bar a few. There is a bit of Ten Haag revisionism going on here, Garnacho wasn't pulling up trees under ETH, he just suited counter attacking and was as frustrating as Rashford. Garnacho has had over 100 games and not developed much, with majority being under ETH.

 

[FrankDrebin]

So, what type of midfielder will work in this set up for Ruben?

Fans have spoken at length about centre backs, wingbacks and strikers but what are we expecting from the centre of the pitch?

 

[Woziak]

In what way do you mean he didn't play this way with sporting?

He played a high line with his wing backs being very high, especially the left footed right side. The 4 man second line midfield was a high line and sometimes his left sided wing back was slighter deeper as the system used the right wing back to join the loin centre forward.

We’ve seen glimpses of his sporting system, away at Liverpool was the best example, his teams are just far more dominant and don’t have 40% of the ball like we have in the last two games?

They force the opposition into submission by outnumbering them, wining second balls, being very physical and playing all over the pitch with high intensity, it’s clear this squad can’t do that for him for more than maybe 20-25 minutes per game?

 

[MaMa given red]

So, what type of midfielder will work in this set up for Ruben?

Fans have spoken at length about centre backs, wingbacks and strikers but what are we expecting from the centre of the pitch?

It needs to be an all rounder, which is why I don't think we really have anybody really capable of doing what Amorim wants a two man midfield to do. Somebody like Lamine Camara or Angelo Stiller would be ideal but I think both of them probably have better options than us if they are available this summer.

 

[chris123]

It needs to be an all rounder, which is why I don't think we really have anybody really capable of doing what Amorim wants a two man midfield to do. Somebody like Lamine Camara or Angelo Stiller would be ideal but I think both of them probably have better options than us if they are available this summer.

I think Ugarte can work fine in the system but the problem with playing him in the Hjulmand role, is that you then need the guy next to him to be more athletic to play a box to box role, have a physical presence and also have passing range. Basically Paul Pogba in his absolute prime, but there are basically no midfielders out there with that sort of profile.