Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

[romufc]

Who carries on like it's only the manager to blame? That's quite a generalisation.

Not only do I want Ten Hag replaced, I've said multiple times I'm sick of lazy ass Rashford, Martial should've been sold years ago, Maguire was never good enough, McTominay is painfully bang average and should've been sold years, ago, and AWB is a shite full back.

Our failures are obviously caused by numerous factors. Manager, players, previous CEOs, and owners.

The only ones who act like any of them are good enough are the weird knee jerkers who change their opinion whenever we win/lose

I mean I am not sure how many posts you have seen on here but plenty are saying that its on the manager only and the structure is just an excuse.

Things like its not the owners or structure who selects the team and choses formation, is incorrect.

I respect posts like this where they actually hold others other than just the manager accountable. How many more years will we see Maguire, Scott, Lindelof, AWB, Rashford before we realise they need to go.

The problem is, if we dont replace those, they always find a way into the playing 11 as they are the backups, so when we need to rotate or injuries occur, they have to play. If we just replaced Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Rashy, Martial, with more hungry, technical players, do you not think it would be beneficial to the club as a whole?

 

[Sarni]

I had to laugh. But I know this was a @Sarni special and I'm not convinced he's being serious.

 

[Rolaholic]

Very true, he beat all of those teams once. Just once though. But that's enough for some hope.

Ole and LVG weep over the revelation that a win or 2 against the big boys is enough to stay on the job nowadays

 

[Smores]

I mean I am not sure how many posts you have seen on here but plenty are saying that its on the manager only and the structure is just an excuse.

Things like its not the owners or structure who selects the team and choses formation, is incorrect.

I respect posts like this where they actually hold others other than just the manager accountable. How many more years will we see Maguire, Scott, Lindelof, AWB, Rashford before we realise they need to go.

The problem is, if we dont replace those, they always find a way into the playing 11 as they are the backups, so when we need to rotate or injuries occur, they have to play. If we just replaced Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Rashy, Martial, with more hungry, technical players, do you not think it would be beneficial to the club as a whole?

Whilst they should go at some stage, the idea that we can only finish 8th with the likes of them is rubbish. How many times have that group finished top 4 if not higher?

Lack of a LB, having to play Evans, inconsistency in lineups are all very valid contributors to our failings but when the excuse extends to well he had to play players who have frequently got top 4 previously it wears thin. His failure to adjust is more relevant there.

 

[MadDogg]

No, I think you don't get my point, I never said none of those managers should be sacked, they deserved to be sacked.

The way we operate, Ten Hag, his successor and so on will suffer the same fate.

Look back from LVG, Jose, they didnt get backed. Your response will say "they got £x million" so they got backed. However; that is not backing, spending useless money isnt backing. Jose wanted Martial and Shaw out, got Alexis half way through for fun.

Ole wanted Rice, Haaland, Jude, Grealish, Sancho, yes he got Sancho but he also got Diallo, Donny, Cavani, Ighalo instead.

Ten Hag wanted McTominay, Maguire gone and wanted a FDJ type player, got Casemiro, Weghorst, Sabitzer and Evans on loan.

Whilst he got Antony and others, you cant expect any manager to mix and match.

Look at the times they got those players as well, end of the window, so the manager has no pre season to integrate them.

No manager gets 100% what he wants. Sometimes the club disagrees with what they want, sometimes the manager wants players that don't want to come (or don't want to leave), sometimes the manager wants players that are just too expensive. Ferguson missed out on plenty of players, Guardiola missed out on plenty, Klopp missed out on plenty, etc. It's the managers job to do the best they possibly can with what they have.

We can't spend unlimited money, so the reason ETH had to make do with the likes of Weghorst, Sabitzer, Amrabat, etc on loan is because he wanted other players that ended up taking all the transfer funds. He seemed to be incredibly fixated on FDJ, a player that didn't want to come (he's also said that he wanted both an FDJ and a Casemiro, not an either/or). Reports are he wanted Kane, a player that Spurs would never have sold to us. A manager having unrealistic expectations doesn't mean he wasn't backed.

The managers have been working under a poor structure. There's certainly no denying that. However that doesn't mean the managers shouldn't be held responsible for the things that they can control. That structure is also being ripped up and replaced, so I'm not sure why you constantly repeat that if we sack ETH we'll be in the same position again in two years. We definitely might be, but only if we get a manager that isn't good enough. If we get the right manager we won't be.

If you agree that the four previous managers deserved to be sacked, then there is no relevance to bringing them up and saying that sacking them didn't work so therefore we shouldn't sack the current one. What happened with those four is completely irrelevant. We've replaced plenty of players as well, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't replace current players if they aren't good enough either. It's exactly the same.

 

[leontas]

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Tune in to the debate club showdown.

 

[Fooza]

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They're doing mock trials aren't they like they do in Suits

 

[MadDogg]

So you think Poor structure and injuries are just and excuse and have no relevance to our season?

Honestly, I'm getting tired of this bad faith argument that some people keep repeating.

Pretty much nobody is saying that injuries and the poor structure have no relevance at all. They absolutely are good excuses for not being as good as what we wanted to be. However, that doesn't mean an entire season is written off where nothing that happens in it should be held against the manager at all. The injuries do not excuse just how bad we were, especially when we were just as bad in the matches where we had barely any injuries. We also finished the season fairly strongly at a time where our injuries were the worst they had been all season, which very strongly indicates that the main issue was not the injuries.

If you think the structure has nothing to do with it, why hasn't any manager since 2013 been able to challenge for the PL or CL?

The structure didn't do their job properly. That includes hiring the wrong managers. Unless you think they got their fifth choice right after getting all four of their previous ones wrong?

 

[stevoc]

Name me a top club that is fighting for top honours that has 7/8 regular starters that they argue is / isnt good enough for 6 years.

Have we been fighting for top honours for the last 7/8 years?

 

[NLunited]

It’s not really like that with one bad (De Boer) and one good (Ten Hag). Overmars started building with De Boer when the club was a mess. There was turmoil and revolution everywhere in the club. De Boer did a great job to stay calm and just focussing on the first team and win the Championship back to back, with a very poor team. With Bosz better players came, from the youth academy where they changed a lot in the De Boer years and from buying players because there was more money available after the Championships and CL money. Bosz had a talented squad but played a bit naïeve, also in de EL final against us. Ten Hag played with a bit more realisme and defended better but he profited of all the work done by Overmars, De Boer and Bosz. By then they had a very talented group of players from their own youth academy and also had a lot of money after years of CL football, EL final and the sale of some players to buy expensive and good players. The scouting network Overmars had by then was very impressive. The last half year of Ten Hag at Ajax was already very difficult, the football was bad and Ten Hag changed his system to two strikers. The last years Ajax fell way back because they fired Overmars after sending dick pics to female staff. They miss Overmars and his organization and scouting much more than the miss Ten Hag.

Do the stats bear out that the last half year at Ajax was indeed poor? Because the season stats are great for Ten Hag’s last year at Ajax.

 

[Rista]

I agree, he has been stubborn and deluded this seasons saying we play good football etc..

The same way Ten Hag is stubborn and hasn't learn, the fans dont learn either do they? We are an up and down club for 11 years, yet we want to see short term managers come in, get sacked. New manager, then call for his head...

I cant tell you that he will be playing fast free flowing football next season, but I can tell you we can sack him fine, we will be having the exact same conversation 2 years from now. "manager x" needs to be sacked because we finished 6th.

And what is all this based on? Just on what previously happened. "We've sacked managers and it didn't work out long term so we need to stop sacking managers, that's the solution". Literally gambler's fallacy. Do people never watch what other teams do? If the manager is not working out, you sack him and try with someone else. 99/100 times it's the right decision.

 

[PieCrust]

Exactly.

The problem is SJR and INEOS knew this is the case with Ashworth and Berrada, which is why I keep saying, why sack and change manager now when the structure isnt even in place?

Why not get the structure sorted, find out what kind of players we can get, young players with potential, get a few in the door, gives Ten Hag something to work with.

While he has a chance to prove himself or he shows he can't hack it. In that time, we can would have sorted our structure in Berrada, Ashworth etc and they can formulate a long term plan. There is no point creating a long term plan with 1/2 the structure and in 2 weeks.

What else tells me there is no plan? Look at the managerial candidates we are linked with. Poch, Di Zerbi and Tuchel, all 3 play a different style.

I've come to believe this is the best plan long term. Stings in the short term though as it almost ensures a bad season.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Well said, one of the biggest issues I see here is that for many posters everything is black and white. Nothing is ever black and white in football, never has been and never will be

Newcastle home kit. I claim my $5.

 

[dwd]

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I am for kinnear

 

[Bobski]

The manager is never the only one to blame, every United fan knows about the Glazers. But how the team performs game to game is ultimately the managers responsibility. Did we have a giant hole where our midfield should have been and got overrun in the middle of the pitch all season because of the Glazers. No it was because of Ten Hag. Yes there has been issues at the club which have not helped managers but that doesn't mean the managers have been good enough either.

As for is player xyz good enough. Maybe or maybe not, same with every players at every club.

No one has an answer or a viable excuse for that other than wishy-washy stuff around needing to change the system. Half of the forum predicted that Cas, Bruno and Mount would not work and would leave vast amounts of space last Summer, the system was fundamentally flawed, and we saw this with multiple combinations of players attempting it.

Do we trust he won't go back to it next season?

 

[Gordon S]

I mean I am not sure how many posts you have seen on here but plenty are saying that its on the manager only and the structure is just an excuse.

Things like its not the owners or structure who selects the team and choses formation, is incorrect.

I respect posts like this where they actually hold others other than just the manager accountable. How many more years will we see Maguire, Scott, Lindelof, AWB, Rashford before we realise they need to go.

The problem is, if we dont replace those, they always find a way into the playing 11 as they are the backups, so when we need to rotate or injuries occur, they have to play. If we just replaced Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Rashy, Martial, with more hungry, technical players, do you not think it would be beneficial to the club as a whole?

Ole, McKenna, Carrick got us into second and third with Lindelöf, Maguire, Fred, Mctominay, AWB, Martial, Rashford as starting players.
They are just not that bad.
Now Fred is gone. Martial has been struggling with injuries for a long time.
Only really Rashford is considered a starting player anymore. The other 4 remaining are decent and loyal back up players. Feels a bit of a stretch to label this group of players as the big issue?

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

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[/QUOTE
Nice little role playing they got going there

 

[lex talionis]

Sure, but why wait until the end of the season? They've had the keys to the castle since February and plenty of access under the hood since the beginning of the diligence period over a year ago.

A very fair question. You do want to look at the entirety or the season and not just the first half. Back in February we had not any trophies this season. But more than that there is a lot to go through in terms of taking in feedback from the players, who now can feel free to talk candidly about anything management wishes to discuss with them without the pressure of getting ready for the next game.

 

[Rista]

No one has an answer or a viable excuse for that other than wishy-washy stuff around needing to change the system. Half of the forum predicted that Cas, Bruno and Mount would not work and would leave vast amounts of space last Summer, the system was fundamentally flawed, and we saw this with multiple combinations of players attempting it.

Do we trust he won't go back to it next season?

We were told he persisted with the system for long term benefits. Somehow the players who are considered mostly not good enough have benefited from playing that way. If he doesn't go back to it then what does that tell us? He threw our entire season for nothing?

 

[Bobski]

We were told he persisted with the system for long term benefits. Somehow the players who are considered mostly not good enough have benefited from playing that way. If he doesn't go back to it then what does that tell us? He threw our entire season for nothing?

The man also said he wanted De Jong and Casemiro and they would have played together, so I guess one of them would have been playing as the secondary 10 that Mount, McT and occasionally Mainoo were this season, barely seeing the ball.

Or he would have played De Jong in the deep midfield role, who is a pretty poor defensive player, sure it would have gone superbly.

 

[stevoc]

No one has an answer or a viable excuse for that other than wishy-washy stuff around needing to change the system. Half of the forum predicted that Cas, Bruno and Mount would not work and would leave vast amounts of space last Summer, the system was fundamentally flawed, and we saw this with multiple combinations of players attempting it.

Do we trust he won't go back to it next season?

I don't trust him not to try to go back to it or a similarly ill advised variation of it, if I'm being honest. His stubborn insistence on persevering with something that clearly wasn't working all season is why I dont think he should continue in this job.

 

[Matt851]

This is rhe problem with the idea he deserves another season under a new structure. Woukd have thought under the new structure he might not be able to specifically pick mount but would still have wanted someone of his profile which was just a flawed plan that would never work alongside Bruno.

The only time he has managed to make us look a vaguely competent team is when he has jettisoned his plans to make us a more progressive team to go back to something resembling oles team. Given he looks completely incapable of making us play like other top teams what benefit is there in keeping him in place?

 

[Zed 101]

Exactly.

The problem is SJR and INEOS knew this is the case with Ashworth and Berrada, which is why I keep saying, why sack and change manager now when the structure isnt even in place?

Why not get the structure sorted, find out what kind of players we can get, young players with potential, get a few in the door, gives Ten Hag something to work with.

While he has a chance to prove himself or he shows he can't hack it. In that time, we can would have sorted our structure in Berrada, Ashworth etc and they can formulate a long term plan. There is no point creating a long term plan with 1/2 the structure and in 2 weeks.

What else tells me there is no plan? Look at the managerial candidates we are linked with. Poch, Di Zerbi and Tuchel, all 3 play a different style.

So basically write off next season because the structure is not yet fully formed?

surely better to get the manager you want in day one of the new structure and make them part of the development process not adjunct to it

 

[Red in STL]

Newcastle home kit. I claim my $5.

It's not pure black and white, it just looks like it is

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Oh look these clubs make deals happen before the window. Look at Chelsea, they wrapped up Estevao during the season but the caf will say, no we can't talk to players before 14th June.

Nothing can be done before the window opens, and only one deal at a time. Oh and we also need a week to “prepare a bid” in between each contact with the selling club. These things take time!

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

They're doing mock trials aren't they like they do in Suits

 

[D. Grayson]

They're doing mock trials aren't they like they do in Suits

You and Prince Harry account for at least two people that watched the show, now I just need to find the other two.

 

[AdNani]

We've traded one dysfunctional ownership model for another. Seriously not a good look for the people running the club to not have a shared vision on how to move forward.

why do you believe everything you read? how the feck would Ben Jacob's know anything

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

Do the stats bear out that the last half year at Ajax was indeed poor? Because the season stats are great for Ten Hag’s last year at Ajax.

Did you watch the last half year/last couple of months at Ajax?

From a Dutch newspaper after his last home game at Ajax (translated with google):

Finally the offensive carousel turned smoothly again, boosted by a goal from crowd favorite Nicolás Tagliafico in the eighteenth minute. Ajax played against Heerenveen with the flair of a champion and that was necessary even after weeks of doom and gloom.

There were extenuating circumstances, such as a long list of injuries and the mental blow that Benfica dealt in the eighth finals of the Champions League. But still; For the strong and expensive selection that Ten Hag has at its disposal, it was sometimes embarrassing what the Amsterdam team showed.

 

[Plant0x84]

People here really lack reading comprehension. Re-read that first half-sentence carefully.

I'm not concerned about transfers yet

I read your post, I didn’t like it so I replied.

You’re the one who keeps banging on about the transfer window being for registration only, and there are plenty of whiners who are wetting their pants about ‘the lack of activity’.

But whatever, I’ll say no more and move on. I suggest you do the same.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Now that McKenna is off the candidates list, I'm not convinced any of the mooted names are any better - or would do any better - than Ten Hag. He did develop Garnacho and Mainoo, and to a lesser extent Højlund, and tried with Forson and Kambwala. There are almost an equal number of items in both the For and Against columns.

FOR	AGAINST
fully integrated Mainoo as a starter	persisted with a misfiring Antony
relied heavily on Garnacho	sidelined Amad
injury crisis all season long, 54 different back 4 pairings	persisted with Casemiro as lone midfielder
nullified Man City's attack	usually tactically inept with gaping hole in midfield
handled Ronaldo and Sancho situations	thinks we were an entertaining side
FA Cup, knocking out Liverpool and Man City	negative goal difference
goal of the season (Garnacho) best team goal (Mainoo, FA Cup)	8th place finish
took captaincy away from Maguire and sidelined him	persisted with Rashford
Martinez	Onana, Malacia, Antony
Mount	Mount
?	cutback goal after cutback goal

 

[AdNani]

Yep, INEOS cannot be trusted at the moment.

They will carry out a review, then I bet you they will all go on holiday.

Instead, a well run club who wants to show that its different from the old regime should:

1. Make a decision on the manage
2. Start on key deals, CB, CM, ST and have them in before pre season.

Instead what will we do? nothing, we will fly to America with Lindelof and Martinez as our CB pairing with Maguire, Kambwala as back ups. Then go into the season wondering why we leak goals, go into the market panic and sign Branthwaite for 80m and have him as backup to Licha.

whole list of made up rage

 

[Florida Man]

You and Prince Harry account for at least two people that watched the show, now I just need to find the other two.

I watched Suits

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

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Two men enter, one man leaves (or stays).

 

[Stig]

whole list of made up rage

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.

 

[JPRouve]

Two men enter, one man leaves (or stays).

What kind of cup is that?

 

[mu4c_20le]

Lets be clear, there's no excusing the league position. If you bothered to properly analyse the school of thought that some posters had, you'd see that.

But you're too busy endorsing childish name calling, peddling hyperbole and creating an over exaggerated narrative.

It was one word. You literally disregarded an entire post of resonable concerns over a single word, that wasn't even meant as an insult.

 

[lex talionis]

In response to this post, which I see was quoted but I couldn't find:

Yep, INEOS cannot be trusted at the moment.

They will carry out a review, then I bet you they will all go on holiday.

Instead, a well run club who wants to show that its different from the old regime should:

1. Make a decision on the manage
2. Start on key deals, CB, CM, ST and have them in before pre season.

Instead what will we do? nothing, we will fly to America with Lindelof and Martinez as our CB pairing with Maguire, Kambwala as back ups. Then go into the season wondering why we leak goals, go into the market panic and sign Branthwaite for 80m and have him as backup to Licha.

(Formatting privileges are keyed off at the moment.)

What does "trusted" mean anyway? We've patiently waiting for progress over a decade now and we can wait another few days. INEOS will make a decision and we'll moan or celebrate appropriately, but there is zero chance that they will not make a decision on who the manager should be. As for key deals, it would be ideal to have everything done and dusted before flying off to America, but that's not the real world. Deals get done on the transfer day deadline all the time. It's a Hobbesian state of nature out there, mates.

 

[VP89]

It was one word. You literally disregarded an entire post of resonable concerns over a single word, that wasn't even meant as an insult.

It is an insult, and yes, I don't answer to posts that resort to insulting the logic of other fans.

 

[mu4c_20le]

It is an insult, and yes, I don't answer to posts that resort to insulting the logic of other fans.

You're so strong