Should we renew De Gea's contract?

[croadyman]

The fact that he doesn’t play with his feet is secondary now. His main problem is that he isn’t a good shot stopper as he was in the past. We need Maignan or Costa, a real upgrade. After striker, GK is our most pressing issue.

More than a number 8?

 

[bosnian_red]

More than a number 8?

Easily. We at least get a solid level out of #8 between Eriksen, Fred, Bruno playing deeper, Sabitzer. To compete for the title we'll need someone who can move with the ball in there of course, but that jump isn't realistic next year anyway.

 

[croadyman]

I think he should go but think he might stay. A cold look at our situation determines we need other positions strengthened more.

Instead of spending 60 mil on a replacement , we could sign a young talent to grow into our new no 1.

Spend the transfer kitty on a striker, midfielder and replacement for Maguire.

Could live with that Georgian guy with De Gea as no 2,however would prefer we went and got Costa before someone else snaps him up

 

[Isotope]

Who is relying on the goalkeeper to "do playmaking"? There is a huge difference between the goalkeeper having a higher starting position and making himself available in possession to move the ball to point A to point B if a player in possession is pressed, that's not asking a goalkeeper to "do playmaking", it is a basic part of the role that De Gea doesn't do. And you're completely incorrect about Arsenal & City not passing to their goalkeepers, Ederson sees more of the ball than all bar 3 goalkeepers in the league for example (Alisson 3rd, Martinez 2nd and Raya 1st being the 3 above him). Ramsdale is somewhat different but that's because his use of the ball is very different to almost all keepers in the league other than Raya; but even then if you take away the goal kicks taken by a defender to De Gea, Ramsdale is brought into play by his team a similar amount, if not more than De Gea has been this season.

It is easier to keep possession if your players are closer together, the further apart they are the bigger the risk it goes without saying, our average defensive line height is the 4th deepest in the league (only Forest, Everton & Bournemouth sit deeper). To look at it from another angle, the 7 teams in the league that average the highest possession are City, Liverpool, Brighton, Arsenal (all over 60%), Chelsea, United 54%, Newcastle. And to look at the 6 teams with the highest defensive lines in the league; City, Arsenal, Brighton, Liverpool (big gap of over 1.5m higher than next teams), Newcastle, Chelsea. And then you have another 10 teams averaging higher lines than us. For completeness, how are Forest, Everton and Bournemouth (the only teams that sit deeper than us) in possession? You'll be shocked to know they are 3 of the 4 lowest averaging possession teams. You just can't play as deep as we play and play attacking possession based football.

I don't really know how much clearer it can be how transformative a goalkeeper suited to the teams style of play would be. You mentioned City and improving our team,, there was a reason the very first thing the Guardiola did at City was to drop Joe Hart for Willy Caballero.

If you think that our defensive line can't be high and we can't play attacking possession football because of Gk, it seems like we're watching different United. But you're probably right.

You haven't answer my question, though.

When you see that City's team, at what picking order do you think, adding Ederson would significantly improve our team? Second? Third?
Then do it with Madrid.

Just see fbref. City is 4th on attempted Gk passes, Brighton 9th, United 10th, Arsenal 15th. So random. Liverpool is 2nd. Is Liverpool playing attacking possession football? hmmm... https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats

 

[gajender]

I will always give a chance to anyone who has a football background at the top level before passing judgement. And that's all I've ever done when it comes to John Murtough where I've consistently said that Murtough will be judged by myself on the structure he himself puts in place and not the structure that Woodward created with Bout and Lawlor when it came to recruitment. Rangnick himself didn't see a problem with DDG or Scott Mctominay who he saw as a future United captain. And it's easy to see why Rangnick didn't have a issue with either player due how he saw football, which was centred around more running without the ball rather than coaching on the ball dominance.


And as far as DDG is concerned, it looks like he's going to be the backup keeper which i'm fine with. And if we can't get someone like Raya or someone else externally who fits into the positional play principles of EtH. Then I hope they give the #1 spot to Henderson for now and spend the money on a top class creative CM and a striker. Henderson at the very least will be proactive when it comes to sweeping and claiming crosses in comparison to DDG. Also you have to remember that i'm someone who has never taken to DDG in the time he's been at the club, so him not being #1 anymore is good news for me, and it will potentially lighten the workload for the players in-front of him who have done a good job as the tweet below indicates.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

And if i'm being honest with you, there's no such thing as a world class DoF. That concept only exists in the minds of those people who don't have a deeper understanding of the game from a tactical and structural perspective. The media hype up certain individuals but when you actually attempt to understand the actual process behind these so called elite DoFs, then the process is actually very simple and the advantage they have is that they work at clubs who allow them the control to align the whole football departments with data analytics playing a key role.

Let's use Luis Campos as a example. He's won league titles as a DoF with both Monaco and Lille. The last one when he was at Lille. So when he was at Lille, he was working as part of a group of 7 people (5 scouts & 2 analysts) that scouted/analysed players covering about 200,000 players across different continents. That isn't possible with only 5 scouts, and hence they utilised data with a set criteria to filter through the players that didn't fit the criteria. And Lille had access to data that their majority owner at the time (Gerard Lopez) said was only available to them, hence it gave them a big advantage when it came to identifying players. And those 5 scouts were then deployed in those regions where the data was telling them to scout in, and hence the eye test was utilised more effectively. Campos doesn't have any special codes where his eye for talent is superior to the majority. But rather he's had the advantage of data science that most others are still catching up on. And when the other clubs catch up, Campos will be just another DoF. It's why the 7 people he works with are in a contractual agreement to work together and hence take advantage of what they have, before the inevitable happens and the clubs who have been sleeping on a data science strategy, wake up.

Below is what Gérard Lopez (majority Lille owner at the time) said about how they took advantage of data at Lille. And it demonstrates again how the ownership plays a big part in how the football side of the club develops. Under the Glazers that hasn't been possible and I don't believe it will ever be a possibility.


Gerard Lopez:"I bet on the talent of my team. Where we act really differently is the tools they use. That gives us an incremental advantage: They have access to technology that nobody else has. We're one of the leading investors in artificial intelligence, for example, so you can assume our use is way ahead of the competition."

"What sort of stuff do we do? Well, we look at associative effects. Take a player with certain characteristics and the way he'll perform will be impacted positively or negatively by the characteristics of those around him. So we use it to help us crunch data because when you think of the sheer quantity of players scouted, the data points and the combinations of players, it can play a key role. We look for associative values, rather than just talent. And it's repeatable, though obviously, having the talent helps, too."

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/fre...e-limits-of-how-techdata-can-influence-a-club

And below is a clip of Lee Dykes explaining how he and his team of 15 scouts take advantage of data to best utilise the eye test at Brentford. At around 3 minutes is the key bit where he mentions the strength of the club is it's structure where the owners allow himself and the football people to run the football side which allows them to take advantage of the data, where 15 pair of eyes cover around 85,000 players. And that's only possible with the help of data analytics which they have developed at these clubs for many many years.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

David Gill started the rot when other clubs were modernising their structures. And we then carried on with the manager model with Woodward until Ole was sacked. And I don't care who the DoF is but rather I care about understanding who are the people occupying the roles below the DoF in a recruitment and data science capacity. Because without top level heads of scouting and a data science strategy, you ain't going to maximize the potential of your scouts. And our data science strategy is in play and is taking shape due to John Murtough. And the people who identify players to sign are the heads of scouting whilst being aided by a data science team.

A new owner might bring in a DoF, and that's fine. But he'll only be as good as the structure below him and the ideas on how he wants the team to play. So it doesn't really matter if DoF x has ample experience of being in the role if his ideas on football are flawed to begin with. A director of football is someone who sets the direction on the football side of the club. And there's no DoF that I know of, that has more knowledge about the game tactically than a top level head coach/manager. Hence why football managers are more sought after than DoFs. DoFs can influence the decision making of head coaches as long as they have a fully functional structure behind them in the form of head scouts and data scientists. Which wasn't the case in the last summer window.

Brilliant post as usual , I was more than willing to give Murtough a chance and I also believe Murtough seem to be the one who along with Arnold is keen on modernising the recruitment structure. And usually internal hiring are better when it comes to DOF or similar profiles .

But the way we gave Contract Extention to Solskjaer just before firing him and now this have put some major doubts in my mind.

Anyway after sleeping over it I will wait for De Gea's contract extention details to emerge and whether we bring Another GK and what we do in Summer market till then I will reserve my judgement on Murtough .

 

[RVN1991]

Tbf during that time
First keeper to win play of the year
First player to win it x3 in a row
And won it x4 which is a joint record
Safe to say he wasn’t the problem for those managers

I actually think the problem is maguire lindloff de gea combo
If we could score a goal this thread wouldn’t be so high up

Yeah people keep making shit up from the alleged new wage he's on someone literally pulled out of his ass, to the idea that he'd have an issue with being back up to him not being the best player in the club for about 5 years. Rewritten history and lack of facts all around. Embarrassing stuff.

 

[Adnan]

Brilliant post as usual , I was more than willing to give Murtough a chance and I also believe Murtough seem to be the one who along with Arnold is keen on modernising the recruitment structure. And usually internal hiring are better when it comes to DOF or similar profiles .

But the way we gave Contract Extention to Solskjaer just before firing him and now this have put some major doubts in my mind.

Anyway after sleeping over it I will wait for De Gea's contract extention details to emerge and whether we bring Another GK and what we do in Summer market till then I will my judgement on Murtough .

That's fair enough mate. Like I've said i'm also waiting to see how things develop and hopefully things go well. All the successful DoFs utilise data, which makes their scouting much more effective. Liverpool built their data department up in 2012, when they hired Damien Comolli as their DoF and he brought over Ian Graham and his team who he got to know at Spurs, due to Spurs hiring the services of the company Ian Graham and his team of data scientists were working for. Edwards was also at Spurs and hence Comolli brought them all over from Spurs before he was sacked. They've left us far behind and we're just playing catch up a decade later.

 

[Sultan]

The best reflex goalkeeper in the world. Most other aspects of his goalkeeping are pretty much average at best. He certainly makes defenders work harder than they should.

 

[gajender]

The best reflex goalkeeper in the world. Most other aspects of his goalkeeping are pretty much average at best. He certainly makes defenders work harder than they should.

Is he though now it was his one saving grace but he seem to have declined even in that department .

 

[Sultan]

Is he though now it was his one saving grace but he seem to have declined even in that department .

We've still seen some amazing saves this season. I do think United should move on from De Gea. The only reason for a new contract could be financial implications. I reckon the club should wait for a new ownership structure prior to signing him on a new contract.

 

[Cloud7]

Not only is DDG below par in his own position, but he actively makes the players around him in the defense worse as well.

It's just so typical of post SAF United that we have the perfect opportunity to move on from him with his contract expiring and upgrade in a position that we desperately do need an upgrade in, and instead we seem likely to renew him instead.

Continuing with DDG is wasting years of quality that we could be getting out of Varane, Lisandro and Shaw.

 

[gajender]

We've still seen some amazing saves this season. I do think United should move on from De Gea. The only reason for a new contract could be financial implications. I reckon the club should wait for a new ownership structure prior to signing him on a new contract.

I believe De Gea should be moved on but his current contract situation entails decision need to be made now by current ownership , his contract runs out next month new ownership may not even be in Charge of the Club by then it would be unfair on De Gea to delay his decision so late where he could end up in a situation without no Club .

 

[Sultan]

I believe De Gea should be moved on but his current contract situation entails decision need to be made now by current ownership , his contract runs out next month new ownership may not even be in Charge of the Club by then it would be unfair on De Gea to delay his decision so late where he could end up in a situation without no Club .

True. In that case, I hope it's only a short extension.

 

[gajender]

Not only is DDG below par in his own position, but he actively makes the players around him in the defense worse as well.

It's just so typical of post SAF United that we have the perfect opportunity to move on from him with his contract expiring and upgrade in a position that we desperately do need an upgrade in, and instead we seem likely to renew him instead.

Continuing with DDG is wasting years of quality that we could be getting out of Varane, Lisandro and Shaw.

Not to mention we have already given up on year of progress Under Ten Hag due to compromises he had to make this year , this would completely torpedo his project which would be over before it could even start in full earnest .

 

[JagUTD]

Yeah, this is true. It does make you wonder whether the uncertainty has had an impact on his form over the last few weeks - he has definitely looked shakier than usual to me. He is a human being at the end of the day - if he's facing a humiliating demotion here at United, or even potentially being let go - coupled with the fact that there doesn't seem much interest from elsewhere - then that's a lot of additional pressure to be under.

On the other hand, maybe the contract is (or was) so close to being in the bag that that is why there isn't much noise from elsewhere? Nobody else would be willing to get close to even a reduced salary at United I wouldn't have thought and I'm sure his agent would be drumming up some interest (from Italy maybe?) if it was unsatisfactory or at risk in any way? Of course recent form may be changing all of this as we speak.

The latter is obviously what's happened. He and the club have said for a long time they are relaxed about the situation and that's because it was always inevitable he would sign.

His dip in form coincidences with the disappearance of the two rather gold centrebacks ahead of him. People talk about a defenders confidence in their keeper, yet it works the same with a keepers confidence in their defenders.

 

[JagUTD]

Well you’d think someone would tell him. People are trying to help him out here.

He clearly doesn’t respect the toxicity of this club

 

[RopersReturn]

If we’ve got to keep him for another season, then it should be on a smaller salary than the current deal. He’s on something like £75k PW atm.

 

[2 man midfield]

Shame Henderson decided to burn his bridges as this is exactly the shot he was looking for. As it is it appears Ten Hag would rather extend De Gea than even think about using someone who called him out because he wasn’t patient enough to wait for their chance.

 

[Red Rash]

I've always said I don't think GK is our biggest problem but in the last few weeks my stance is changing slightly. I still think there are other areas of the team we need to improve first.

Elite Striker
Casemiro Midfield Partner
New GK
Backup Striker

This would probably be the order for me. If we have budget for all of the top 3 it may be time for De Gea to leave, if not I'd keep him if he would agree to reduced salary.

Note : I also voted for Rashford to leave last summer and got that well and truly wrong so take my opinion with a pinch of salt

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

We've still seen some amazing saves this season. I do think United should move on from De Gea. The only reason for a new contract could be financial implications. I reckon the club should wait for a new ownership structure prior to signing him on a new contract.

The decision to move on from DDG shouldn't be based on the new ownership structure. It's priority to have new keeper that can retain possession. We will struggle if our keeper keeps giving the ball away. DDG's 20m salary per year is actually more expensive than paying 50m transfer fees in the 5 years installment (10m per year) with 150k pw wages (7.8m per year). If we let DDG go, and sign new keeper for 50m on 150k pw wages is equivalent to saving 2.2m per year.

 

[lilcurt]

While I think we should move him on it isn't a binary choice.

If we have funds to get our main targets and a GK in the summer then obviously no, he goes.

If however, it is a choice of missing out on a midfielder or striker to fix the GK position then just give him a new contract.

 

[Oranges038]

De Gea's biggest problem has been clear for years - mentality. He's scared of physical challenges, crumbles under pressure and has made no effort to improve on his weak points in the decade he's been here.

If anything he's gotten much worse. He used to at least flap at crosses, now he just watches them sail into the box. This is the sort of mental decision making, that makes you wonder how these people ever get this high up in the game to be able to make these decisions. But, this is the Man Utd way now, jobs for the boys as Keane would say.

Personally, I don't think this is a decision ETH really wants to make, his hands are probably tied, club ownership in limbo, not a lot of money coming forward for transfers etc..

It's a real fecking shame, oh for the days when poor performances meant you'd be shown the door sooner or later and not be getting rewarded with a new deal.

 

[georgipep]

If ten Hag wants to keep DDG around for stability and dressing room morale purposes, I'm fine with that. Stability purposes in case the new keeper has issues settling in to new surroundings and the pressure that goes with being United's#1. And we don't know what his contract length is or what he's potentially going to get paid.

The rest of your post regards data science applies to other clubs as well. Liverpool's data scientist who was and still is at the club is from the USA. Will Spearman wasn't even someone who watched football (soccer) but was given the role and he was guided by people like Barry Hunter who was the Chief Scout. Ajax have Vosse de Boode who is their head of data analytics and she admits she knows nothing about the game and is guided by people like Henk Veldmate (head of scouting). I've mentioned this to you before.

And Dominic Jordan only took up his role at the club in March 2022. And the likes of Wan Bissaka weren't signed in 2019, due to the club having a data science strategy. That strategy is only in it's infancy. And the 800 fullbacks were pulled from a data base of players and not due to any data analytics that was applied. Because their wasn't a data science strategy active on the football side of the club.

How is De Gea staying going to help a new keeper with stability? If anything, De Gea would undermine the new keeper and make his case to be #1 the moment the new guy has a bad game

 

[aganley]

While I think we should move him on it isn't a binary choice.

If we have funds to get our main targets and a GK in the summer then obviously no, he goes.

If however, it is a choice of missing out on a midfielder or striker to fix the GK position then just give him a new contract.

Agree with this getting him on a new significantly reduced contract while we strengthen in other areas is fine. But I agree he is not good enough and should go next year. On a new contract we can get a little back on him as well.

 

[moses]

It's scattered across the media circa 200k. You need to follow conversations better

You need to read better, I had no issue with the figure.

 

[TMDaines]

Agree with this getting him on a new significantly reduced contract while we strengthen in other areas is fine. But I agree he is not good enough and should go next year. On a new contract we can get a little back on him as well.

Nobody is paying a penny for De Gea. He’s a free agent in a month’s time and nobody could give a feck. We’re the only numpties to look at these past few years who think he should still be employed.

 

[Lentwood]

I still cannot see any logic in deciding that a player is not good enough to be #1, so you renew them as the #2 on a higher salary than 95% of the outfield players in the Premier League.

There are goalkeepers in Europe's minor leagues and/or South America right now who will go on to be £50m+ GKs capable of starting for Premier League sides. Personally I'd like to believe we could be identifying these players and gambling on them, rather than overpaying the same old flops.

 

[devilish]

Some people might be too young to remember the time when Foster, Carroll and Howard were our no 1 keepers. It was a mess which was way beyond to what we're seeing right now. Sure DDG is in decline but he's still a very valid keeper. With a summer set to be ruined by the takeover, with just 100m to spend and with incompetent people managing the club (DOFs etc) then it makes sense to keep DDG around. Don't mention Henderson. The guy's two only assets are his arrogance and his ability to pick the ball from the net. In fact he conceded 31 goals in 18 matches

 

[davidmichael]

Sell him..get whatever we can for him to be used on a better keeper. He has not improved his game for 10 years now, too many flaws in his game for this level.

He’s out of contract in a couple of months so unless someone has a complete loss of mind we wouldn’t get a penny for him, even if he was still under contract though NO ONE is going to pay for him as seen over the past few years due to his serious decline including his one strong attribute in shot stopping and the ridiculous wages he’s on.

I would honestly rather loan Butland for another season or get Sommer on a free and have Henderson and Butland/Sommer fight it out for a year rather than extend De Gea and have him keep declining and stopping any chance we have of progress as he looks like a rabbit in the headlights any time the ball is at his feet, we need to move on from De Gea completely and getting his £375K a week off the bill will be as massive as getting Ronaldo off it too.

 

[JB7]

If you think that our defensive line can't be high and we can't play attacking possession football because of Gk, it seems like we're watching different United. But you're probably right.

You haven't answer my question, though.



Just see fbref. City is 4th on attempted Gk passes, Brighton 9th, United 10th, Arsenal 15th. So random. Liverpool is 2nd. Is Liverpool playing attacking possession football? hmmm... https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats

I didn't say we can't do it at all, I said it makes it more difficult - it's no coincidence that the teams with the highest lines keep possession best. I would say that you can't sustain it though. Obviously there are other factors but the goalkeeper makes a much bigger difference than people realise.

Are Liverpool playing attacking possession football? They're the third top scorers in the league with the second highest average possession, so yes, of course they are. The fact they've been way below their usual standard doesn't alter this fact. United's figure is skewed significantly by the 100+ goal kicks a centre back has taken and passed the ball to De Gea which almost no other team in the league has done (although Liverpool have started doing it the last few weeks), take those away and United drop way down the list. Brighton dropped Sanchez who played the majority of the games because he wasn't supporting them in possession or playing high enough to sweep consistently.

Because that is the other side of the high line support, the goalkeeper doesn't just need to be an option in possession, they need to be fast out of their goal because you're more susceptible to balls in behind the defence. For example Newcastle don't bring Pope into play but they know due to his high starting position he's rapid off his line to deal with balls over the top. Alisson similar although he is used considerably more in possession. You will see it's a trend that is continued with the average distance from goal of the defensive actions of Alisson, Pope, Kepa, Ramsdale, Ederson being 5 of the top 6. De Gea is back in 14th. Similarly De Gea is 17th in terms of defensive actions outside the area; you can't play a high line with a goalkeeper not willing to leave his area.

To answer your question, and I'm not a fan of Ederson so he's not really a goalkeeper I would look to sign, I would have a goalkeeper as priority number 2, right after striker. But I would definitely sign a proper goalkeeper in the summer, even if it was just likely to be a stopgap for a year or two.

 

[CM]

People who think ETH wants DDG to stay haven't followed ETH when he was at Ajax.

During his Ajax tenure, ETH benched a more experienced Stekelenburg in favor of ball playing Onana. Once Onana received the doping ban, instead of reinstating Stekelenburg between the sticks, he went out and bought a 39 year old Remko Pasveer, who was a very poor shot stopper, but very good at distribution.

I'm 100% this whole DDG extension is on the club hierarchy, who is trying to force him down ETH's throat(just like they did at the start of the season).

But now once the negotiations are almost complete, they are left with an egg on their face since DDG's disaster class vs Sevilla and Hammers.

This gave Erik a vey strong bargaining card, and today's reports of him not guaranteeing DDG's starting role next season proves that.

Since we are almost done negotiating Dave's contract, what I expect to happen is he will stay for another season. We will also sign a cheap GK in the Raya mould, and DDG is going to get the Maguire treatment with a testemonial at the end of next season. After which we will part ways...

All the talk about his renewal being a formality and any new goalkeeper signing being brought in as competition are major red flags.

If the board are trying to force De Gea on Ten Hag, he needs to be stronger because this is a decision that could cost him his job. So far he has publicly endorsed De Gea after costing us in several big games.

We can't afford to kick this down the road until next season either. We won't be able to sell him once he's tied down to a new contract. It has to be a clean break this summer.

 

[wangyu]

I think in general he wins us more points than vice versa

 

[Judas]

I think in general he wins us more points than vice versa

If we could actually convert chances, create chances, and score goals, we wouldn't have to rely on "miracle" saves though.

 

[CM]

I think in general he wins us more points than vice versa

Pretty sure that hasn't been the case for a couple of years now.

 

[HookedOnAPhelan]

I think in general he wins us more points than vice versa

I doubt that. Just looking at his saves (of which he has many great ones) doesn't take into account the number of chances we concede unnecessarily and our lack of control in games as the result of his poor distribution, lack of sweeping, and cowardice and passitivity in the box.

 

[crossy1686]

We've still seen some amazing saves this season. I do think United should move on from De Gea. The only reason for a new contract could be financial implications. I reckon the club should wait for a new ownership structure prior to signing him on a new contract.

But they were saves he had to make because he kicked the ball straight to the opposition. The situations he creates are totally avoidable by competent keeping.

Definitely agree about the new ownership thing though. Would be madness to give him a new contract and then have new owners who allow the purchase of a new GK.

 

[Andrew Richmond]

It’s time to move on.

Great shot stopper, for the most part anyway, but time for a change.

 

[JuriM]

2 year renew + buy a young goalkeeper like Anatoly Trubin to his understudy to mold him to be modern Sweeper Keeper like we need.

 

[JB7]

I think in general he wins us more points than vice versa

Didn't realise I'd stepped back into 2017.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I believe De Gea should be moved on but his current contract situation entails decision need to be made now by current ownership , his contract runs out next month new ownership may not even be in Charge of the Club by then it would be unfair on De Gea to delay his decision so late where he could end up in a situation without no Club .

Why would it be unfair? The club has no obligation towards DDG beyond his contract.