Not disagreeing with that, or saying ideally we shouldn’t be looking for better
I guess depends on money
We need a New signing in each position
Striker, midfielder, keeper, defender
personally, I think the keeper situation is last on that list
Should we renew De Gea's contract?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are joined by special guest Anders (@Lyng) to celebrate the news that ETH is staying put! They also talk about the Euros so far, with special attention on England, Scotland and Denmark. They then finish with some transfer talk and the potential comings and outgoings at Old Trafford.
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I guess depends on money
We need a New signing in each position
Striker, midfielder, keeper, defender
personally, I think the keeper situation is last on that list
Raya is rubbish. Even his distribution isn’t amazing. Supporting getting him on a free and keeping De Gea as a backup is the most Glazer-apologist opinion one could have. Releasing De Gea is the only correct course of action here, especially as he’s the highest paid goalkeeper in the world at the moment despite being a very poor one relative to PL standard at all aspects aside from shot stopping.
Erik, ole, ralf, agreed
The others listed he was
Agree with all apart from the keeper bit. Just can’t imagine Utd sustaining a serious title challenge with an erratic DDG as main keeper.
It's scattered across the media circa 200k. You need to follow conversations better
That's a more ambitious ask than I think is realistic at this stage.
I can’t see us spending money signing 4 great players in those positions
We need a striker, we need someone other than eriksen, maybe could argue defence and keeper in either order
For the money we’d have available, would we be able to sign a worthy 1st choice ?
can’t skim money off the strikers and midfielders, clubs are going to have our eyes out, so with what is left, who can we get
His biggest strength has been his only strength his entire time here. Everything else has either barely improved or not at all.
Baffled that Ten Hag wants to continue with him, maybe even more than playing Weggy.
Baffled that Ten Hag wants to continue with him, maybe even more than playing Weggy.
Yep, end of the day it’ll all be down to money ….Utd need to unload big time to free up cash.
Honestly I remember being against his last renewal, I never thought we'd make the same mistake again. But sadly this is modern day Manchester United.
Even Jose said at the time it was excessive, as he wasn't in that demand anymore
Sell him..get whatever we can for him to be used on a better keeper. He has not improved his game for 10 years now, too many flaws in his game for this level.
Absolutely inexecusable from the board.
Just shocking stuff from them if we let him stay.
Just shocking stuff from them if we let him stay.
If he's the number 1 keeper next season, that season is a complete write-off.
We'll again compromise on our build-up structure. De Gea will continue being a mediocre shot-stopper and nothing will change.
We'll again compromise on our build-up structure. De Gea will continue being a mediocre shot-stopper and nothing will change.
Of course he'll sign a new contract because we're not a serious club, just living of sentiment and nostalgia. It's such a stupid decision as you can hear cheering from all other clubs suppoters if you listen really closely.
If truly ETH truly sanctioned his renewable, it will be the beginning of the end of his United career as a coach.
I'm beginning to get worried about ETH's judgement, first WW,and now de gea's renewal. De gea shouldn't be our no 1 goalkeeper, neither should he be a number 2,because even half his salary is still expensive for a back up keeper.
I'm beginning to get worried about ETH's judgement, first WW,and now de gea's renewal. De gea shouldn't be our no 1 goalkeeper, neither should he be a number 2,because even half his salary is still expensive for a back up keeper.
Man Utd - Rewarding mediocrity since 2013.
I genuinely just don't see what he offers anymore, even as a number two.
I honestly don't think De Gea accepted a contract where he's the #2.
He's probably going to be our starting GK again next season.
He's probably going to be our starting GK again next season.
He’s currently on a six year £117,000,000 contract.
I‘d say he’s had enough money out of Utd…. time to go.
I‘d say he’s had enough money out of Utd…. time to go.
What is it with the club and rewarding mediocrity. One of the many reasons the club is so far way from a title
Looking back, I think he lost all of his confidence during the 2018 world cup and never got it back. He was amazing just before that, too. It was like an instantaneous drop off.
Now, as opposition fans know he's a weak link, they are always on his back and he just can't seemingly cope with the pressure which results in him making more mistakes.
Anyone watching CL games? There are at least 4 other upgrades we need to do before upgrading Gk, imho.
What other 5?
We need a GK. We can't play out from the back with De Gea. He's not commanding of the box at all. Teams can ping balls into our box without any worry of De Gea collecting the ball. He's rooted to his line too often. He's now a mediocre shot stopper too. He offers nothing.
We need a much better GK.
There's zero chance he signs up to explicitly being #2.
#1 spot not being guaranteed and having to compete for it though? That's more plausible. After all, he's already been in that position with Henderson without any (public) complaint. And from his POV he saw off that challenge, so he may well back himself in that well-payed scenario.
All depends on how we address the backup GK situation this summer. Will it be an actual competitor or just someone like Butland? Our best hope is that it's the former.
Plausible for sure, but not even that should have been offered to him.
I don't know. Watching Madrid and City, I don't think with with Ederson or Curtois in our team would make us play as nice. We need a Gk upgrade. But to be able to compete with those two, a Gk upgrade is still low in priority, imho. CF, RW, CM, and RB are top 4. Then between CB and Gk. With Varane might stay fit or not , if you trust Lindelof to deputized in big games, then Gk is the 5th upgrade.
Sure, but we are where we are. Best to try and look on the positive side.
Tbf, efficient use of funds aside, I could see the appeal of that approach from ETH's POV. If you can keep the old goalkeeper around while seeing how the new guy beds in then that's a very safe approach to improving that position. Worst case scenario the new guy flops and nothing changes, best case scenario he's a hit and you just tell De Gea he can leave next summer. It's not like De Gea is going to be throwing strops on the sideline or giving Piers Morgan an interview if he ends up playing less than he'd like.
All depending on us actually signing that quality competitor of course.
Goalkeeper is essential if you want to put any form of stylistic blueprint into consistent use. If you're happy to continue sitting deep and trying to counter attack every time we play a good team then fine, but if you want to play front foot attacking possession football then you can't do that with De Gea. The team has to sit too deep to compensate for his failings making possession football far more difficult than it needs to be.
I will always give a chance to anyone who has a football background at the top level before passing judgement. And that's all I've ever done when it comes to John Murtough where I've consistently said that Murtough will be judged by myself on the structure he himself puts in place and not the structure that Woodward created with Bout and Lawlor when it came to recruitment. Rangnick himself didn't see a problem with DDG or Scott Mctominay who he saw as a future United captain. And it's easy to see why Rangnick didn't have a issue with either player due how he saw football, which was centred around more running without the ball rather than coaching on the ball dominance.
And as far as DDG is concerned, it looks like he's going to be the backup keeper which i'm fine with. And if we can't get someone like Raya or someone else externally who fits into the positional play principles of EtH. Then I hope they give the #1 spot to Henderson for now and spend the money on a top class creative CM and a striker. Henderson at the very least will be proactive when it comes to sweeping and claiming crosses in comparison to DDG. Also you have to remember that i'm someone who has never taken to DDG in the time he's been at the club, so him not being #1 anymore is good news for me, and it will potentially lighten the workload for the players in-front of him who have done a good job as the tweet below indicates.
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And if i'm being honest with you, there's no such thing as a world class DoF. That concept only exists in the minds of those people who don't have a deeper understanding of the game from a tactical and structural perspective. The media hype up certain individuals but when you actually attempt to understand the actual process behind these so called elite DoFs, then the process is actually very simple and the advantage they have is that they work at clubs who allow them the control to align the whole football departments with data analytics playing a key role.
Let's use Luis Campos as a example. He's won league titles as a DoF with both Monaco and Lille. The last one when he was at Lille. So when he was at Lille, he was working as part of a group of 7 people (5 scouts & 2 analysts) that scouted/analysed players covering about 200,000 players across different continents. That isn't possible with only 5 scouts, and hence they utilised data with a set criteria to filter through the players that didn't fit the criteria. And Lille had access to data that their majority owner at the time (Gerard Lopez) said was only available to them, hence it gave them a big advantage when it came to identifying players. And those 5 scouts were then deployed in those regions where the data was telling them to scout in, and hence the eye test was utilised more effectively. Campos doesn't have any special codes where his eye for talent is superior to the majority. But rather he's had the advantage of data science that most others are still catching up on. And when the other clubs catch up, Campos will be just another DoF. It's why the 7 people he works with are in a contractual agreement to work together and hence take advantage of what they have, before the inevitable happens and the clubs who have been sleeping on a data science strategy, wake up.
Below is what Gérard Lopez (majority Lille owner at the time) said about how they took advantage of data at Lille. And it demonstrates again how the ownership plays a big part in how the football side of the club develops. Under the Glazers that hasn't been possible and I don't believe it will ever be a possibility.
Gerard Lopez:"I bet on the talent of my team. Where we act really differently is the tools they use. That gives us an incremental advantage: They have access to technology that nobody else has. We're one of the leading investors in artificial intelligence, for example, so you can assume our use is way ahead of the competition."
"What sort of stuff do we do? Well, we look at associative effects. Take a player with certain characteristics and the way he'll perform will be impacted positively or negatively by the characteristics of those around him. So we use it to help us crunch data because when you think of the sheer quantity of players scouted, the data points and the combinations of players, it can play a key role. We look for associative values, rather than just talent. And it's repeatable, though obviously, having the talent helps, too."
https://www.espn.co.uk/football/fre...e-limits-of-how-techdata-can-influence-a-club
And below is a clip of Lee Dykes explaining how he and his team of 15 scouts take advantage of data to best utilise the eye test at Brentford. At around 3 minutes is the key bit where he mentions the strength of the club is it's structure where the owners allow himself and the football people to run the football side which allows them to take advantage of the data, where 15 pair of eyes cover around 85,000 players. And that's only possible with the help of data analytics which they have developed at these clubs for many many years.
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David Gill started the rot when other clubs were modernising their structures. And we then carried on with the manager model with Woodward until Ole was sacked. And I don't care who the DoF is but rather I care about understanding who are the people occupying the roles below the DoF in a recruitment and data science capacity. Because without top level heads of scouting and a data science strategy, you ain't going to maximize the potential of your scouts. And our data science strategy is in play and is taking shape due to John Murtough. And the people who identify players to sign are the heads of scouting whilst being aided by a data science team.
A new owner might bring in a DoF, and that's fine. But he'll only be as good as the structure below him and the ideas on how he wants the team to play. So it doesn't really matter if DoF x has ample experience of being in the role if his ideas on football are flawed to begin with. A director of football is someone who sets the direction on the football side of the club. And there's no DoF that I know of, that has more knowledge about the game tactically than a top level head coach/manager. Hence why football managers are more sought after than DoFs. DoFs can influence the decision making of head coaches as long as they have a fully functional structure behind them in the form of head scouts and data scientists. Which wasn't the case in the last summer window.
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If the team is good enough to keep possession and being creative, that just silly to rely on Gk to do playmaking. Watching Arsenal or CIty, do notice that their defence rarely pass to their Gk. They try to solve the passing problem by themselves.
When you see that City's team, at what picking order do you think, adding Ederson would significantly improve our team? Second? Third?
Then do it with Madrid.
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Pathetically run club from top to bottom. Even if he is only a backup which I highly doubt its still such a bad decision.
Who is relying on the goalkeeper to "do playmaking"? There is a huge difference between the goalkeeper having a higher starting position and making himself available in possession to move the ball to point A to point B if a player in possession is pressed, that's not asking a goalkeeper to "do playmaking", it is a basic part of the role that De Gea doesn't do. And you're completely incorrect about Arsenal & City not passing to their goalkeepers, Ederson sees more of the ball than all bar 3 goalkeepers in the league for example (Alisson 3rd, Martinez 2nd and Raya 1st being the 3 above him). Ramsdale is somewhat different but that's because his use of the ball is very different to almost all keepers in the league other than Raya; but even then if you take away the goal kicks taken by a defender to De Gea, Ramsdale is brought into play by his team a similar amount, if not more than De Gea has been this season.
It is easier to keep possession if your players are closer together, the further apart they are the bigger the risk it goes without saying, our average defensive line height is the 4th deepest in the league (only Forest, Everton & Bournemouth sit deeper). To look at it from another angle, the 7 teams in the league that average the highest possession are City, Liverpool, Brighton, Arsenal (all over 60%), Chelsea, United 54%, Newcastle. And to look at the 6 teams with the highest defensive lines in the league; City, Arsenal, Brighton, Liverpool (big gap of over 1.5m higher than next teams), Newcastle, Chelsea. And then you have another 10 teams averaging higher lines than us. For completeness, how are Forest, Everton and Bournemouth (the only teams that sit deeper than us) in possession? You'll be shocked to know they are 3 of the 4 lowest averaging possession teams. You just can't play as deep as we play and play attacking possession based football.
I don't really know how much clearer it can be how transformative a goalkeeper suited to the teams style of play would be. You mentioned City and improving our team,, there was a reason the very first thing the Guardiola did at City was to drop Joe Hart for Willy Caballero.
This is the key bit everyone's disagreeing with. You could get rid of DDG right now and because of the way contract amortizations work, we could've signed a new 50-60M keeper for 150k p/w in wages and been fine with it.
It makes no sense to extend DDG's contract at something like 200k p/w to be the backup keeper for god knows how long. There is no way we're getting rid of a 200k p/w keeper even if Henderson becomes #1 for us.
There is barely any data science at United. They hired some rando PhD dude with no relevant experience in football and no relevant PhD in any related fields and promptly forgot about him. Do you think any of our signings (Antony, Martinez, Casemiro, FdJ, Weghorst, Sabitzer) are based on data science? You can look at the models that the Pool, City and even Chelsea teams put out and you look at what we do (AWB was selected from a database of 800 players!!!!) and it's laughable to call what we do "data science".
I've read public statements from insiders confirming these.
I don't think Murtough is doing much to push data science. He is continuing with the give the coach what he wants model. Those are the Antony, Martinez, FdJ sagas. They even pulled forward spending from this summer so they could spend 200M last summer. And most of that was blown on panic signings like Antony and Casemiro.
No top four would be disastrous for us and should cost Murtough his job. He might get lucky and we might get the 9 points but at this point I'm convinced Murtough has no clue what he's doing.
There are no words left to adequately describe how badly run this club is. Jobs and contracts for the boys, while never learning from our mistakes. We absolutely deserve to be where we are as a club and we’ll never get back to the elite until this kind of decision making is banished and we get back to operating like a ruthless machine again.
I would probably have agreed with this until his dreadful mistake at West Ham made me think again, and reminded me of the series of game-defining errors he has made over the past couple of years. Now, on the balance of his performances good and bad, I can no longer argue that we should keep him. He was, of course, a truly great shot stopper, and got us out of numerous scrapes over the years. Now his concentration levels seem to have plummeted disasterously, and he is losing us matches he often won us before. I think we should move on it this summer and get someone more reliable in.
If ten Hag wants to keep DDG around for stability and dressing room morale purposes, I'm fine with that. Stability purposes in case the new keeper has issues settling in to new surroundings and the pressure that goes with being United's#1. And we don't know what his contract length is or what he's potentially going to get paid.
The rest of your post regards data science applies to other clubs as well. Liverpool's data scientist who was and still is at the club is from the USA. Will Spearman wasn't even someone who watched football (soccer) but was given the role and he was guided by people like Barry Hunter who was the Chief Scout. Ajax have Vosse de Boode who is their head of data analytics and she admits she knows nothing about the game and is guided by people like Henk Veldmate (head of scouting). I've mentioned this to you before.
And Dominic Jordan only took up his role at the club in March 2022. And the likes of Wan Bissaka weren't signed in 2019, due to the club having a data science strategy. That strategy is only in it's infancy. And the 800 fullbacks were pulled from a data base of players and not due to any data analytics that was applied. Because their wasn't a data science strategy active on the football side of the club.
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I will bite my tongue on the contract extension, so long as we actually get a new #1. He obviously should leave, but there are life factors and off the pitch factors.... Having a normal wage spend is a pipe dream too, so I'm not too obsessed on that side even if ideally we would be competent there too.
The only way he stays if we offer him enough money than any other club will, to where he knows sitting on the bench and collecting money will be easier than moving elsewhere - especially as this is likely his last professional contract at any meaningful club.
I think he should go but think he might stay. A cold look at our situation determines we need other positions strengthened more.
Instead of spending 60 mil on a replacement , we could sign a young talent to grow into our new no 1.
Spend the transfer kitty on a striker, midfielder and replacement for Maguire.
Instead of spending 60 mil on a replacement , we could sign a young talent to grow into our new no 1.
Spend the transfer kitty on a striker, midfielder and replacement for Maguire.
Should be untenable under new owners anyway
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