Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

[moses]

If hes doing it in public?

No.

And thats because PUBLIC DISPLAYS OF AFFECTION ARE ILLEGAL IN QATAR.

Seems like (as usual) most of the posters are just here to get offended or looking to be offended.

If its such and issue boycott the World Cup, are any of the posters on here actually

You want to go there then you have to respect their laws, if you don’t then guess what we will read about you in the Sun/DM and you can be all outraged then.

This old trope.

Is that the basis of all human rights activists?

Can you show me a post of someone who is offended? I'm not offended by things I think are I just quite as much as I'm angered by them.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

This old trope.

Is that the basis of all human rights activists?

Can you show me a post of someone who is offended? I'm not offended by things I think are I just quite as much as I'm angered by them.

Are you going to Qatar?

 

[Bole Top]

So none.

yeah, because they are no gays among the best players, as surprising as it sounds to you.

 

[UpWithRivers]

it isn't, that's the thing. even the gay players themselves wouldn't refuse to participate. hell, just recently there was an interview with one of them from MLS and he said he would have no problem with going to Qatar. and the other one, from Australia, said he dreams to play in Qatar regardless.

histerical online community have more problems with Qatar as a country than actual participants. business as usual on internet, not that I'm surprised.

If a couple of black people decide to go to a Ku Klux Klan convention that doesnt all of a sudden make racism ok. If gay people go to the world cup it doesn't make being homophobic right either. But they are in a difficult situation where they cant speak up. Like people within Iran or Russia are finding it hard to speak up because there are consequences. We can speak up though. Homophobes, racists, pedophiles etc can go fk themselves. I oppose you and everything you stand for. I dont care if its a World Cup. You are wrong and I have a right to say so

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well, I'm not sure about better, at least from a human rights point of view. In an ideal world, the occupation would have seen Russia immediately stripped of the right to host the World Cup. And their "gay propaganda" laws are pretty fecking abhorrent even if not quite on the level of Qatar.

There are better reasons to protest it from a football perspective - disrupting a season for no reason other than giving it to a country where the weather is unbearable in the summer - but this thread isn't about that.

But again, the whole premise that there weren't serious criticism or calls for boycott against Russia is just straight-up false. It isn't true. At all.

Using essentially slave labour to build the very stadiums in which the matches will be played feels like a far more tangible reason to object to this World Cup than displeasure with the host nation’s foreign policies. Which will be an issue at most tournaments in major nations (hence the whataboutism in this thread)

 

[Glorio]

Laws that are not violating human rights should be obeyed, wouldn't you agree?
Just to add people will willingly obey the laws of UK because it's not discriminating against the LGBT community.

Who defines what a human right is though? Societies.
Theirs are determined by their society and what they deem as a right. What you deem as an essential right, they don't.

For instance over the last couple of years, what were deemed iron-clad rights of movement, speech, opinion etc had to essentially be ripped away by societies to combat a global crisis. The position of these societies had shifted and so did the perception of rights.

In some societies it's a right to walk around naked. If you did it in any UK city, you would be arrested for indecent exposure, be put in prison, put on a sex register, lose your job, etc.

If we hosted a world cup, I wouldn't care wherever anyone came from, if they exposed themselves in front of my kids, I'm calling the police on them. World cups do not suspend societies.

The folks to blame if the norms, cultures, and laws of the Qatari society were considered at odds with the values of a world cup are the decision makers. Every part of what Qatar is about was open for the world to see, and they were chosen anyway.

All I'm saying is if these laws are at odds with who you are, do not go. In countries like this, even public displays of physical affection (regardless of gender) that are considered normal in many nations could lead to an arrest.

 

[Drawfull]

He could remind people that there are risks with being openly gay. I think that would be fair.

He probably shouldn't instruct people to temporarily turn off who they inherently are. Nor did he need that slightly pro Qatar, sympathetic to them angle he seemed to have.

Fair enough, didn't think of it like that

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Using essentially slave labour to build the very stadiums in which the matches will be played feels like a far more tangible reason to object to this World Cup than displeasure with the host nation’s foreign policies. Which will be an issue at most tournaments in major nations (hence the whataboutism in this thread)

Well said.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Exactly ! All they're asking the fans to do is not to do it in public, it's not bloody hard.

So if they told you not to show any sign of affection or that you are in a relationship with your wife/girlfriend you would think that's fine? I'd be pissed.

It's fecking backwards mate. This dodgy corrupt World Cup in a horror state.

 

[moses]

Are you going to Qatar?

So its just bluster as I imagined. Another empty line from the 'you can't say anything anymore' collection.

Of course I'm not going. Or watching, and it won't be much of a challenge.

I'm just genuinely wondering why so many people are so spineless and servile on the insistence we obey unjust laws. Its like nobody here has ever read a history book.

Rosa Parks says hi.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Using essentially slave labour to build the very stadiums in which the matches will be played feels like a far more tangible reason to object to this World Cup than displeasure with the host nation’s foreign policies. Which will be an issue at most tournaments in major nations (hence the whataboutism in this thread)

Absolutely. But when combined it makes a strong argument to boycott this world cup.

Fans won't though either because they are stupid, desperate for entertainment/distraction or lack integrity.

 

[moses]

Using essentially slave labour to build the very stadiums in which the matches will be played feels like a far more tangible reason to object to this World Cup than displeasure with the host nation’s foreign policies. Which will be an issue at most tournaments in major nations (hence the whataboutism in this thread)

There is a whole other thread on the issues. This is just about a dumb statement and why it is in fact dumb.

That thread has almost exactly the same posters with the same whataboutism.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

So if they told you not to show any sign of affection or that you are in a relationship with your wife/girlfriend you would think that's fine? I'd be pissed.

It's fecking backwards mate. This dodgy corrupt World Cup in a horror state.

So its just bluster as I imagined. Another empty line from the 'you can't say anything anymore' collection.

Of course I'm not going. Or watching, and it won't be much of a challenge.

I'm just genuinely wondering why so many people are so spineless and servile on the insistence we obey unjust laws. Its like nobody here has ever read a history book.

Rosa Parks says hi.

Bluster? No.

That you are using the law they have in which you cant show public signs of affection to call for a boycott rather than the deaths of workers used to build the stadia and infrastructure is what annoys me. Is it worse to be offended because some one cant openly kiss someone in public or that those streets those people are able to walk about on are built on the bodies of those workers who've perished?

Like posters who actually live in the region have stated, public sogns of affection are illegal irrespective if youre gay straight or what ever.

Edit dont know why I quoted the first poster…this reply was in response to @moses

 

[Bole Top]

If we hosted a world cup, I wouldn't care wherever anyone came from, if they exposed themselves in front of my kids, I'm calling the police on them. World cups do not suspend societies.

Ukraine already did that, but nobody remembers it anymore. city authorities prohibited people from being half naked on their balconies near stadiums during their hosting of 2012 Euro.

 

[adexkola]

So if they told you not to show any sign of affection or that you are in a relationship with your wife/girlfriend you would think that's fine? I'd be pissed.

It's fecking backwards mate. This dodgy corrupt World Cup in a horror state.

In public? I'm sure I'd manage fine.

 

[Cascarino]

Bluster? No.

That you are using the law they have in which you cant show public signs of affection to call for a boycott rather than the deaths of workers used to build the stadia and infrastructure is what annoys me. Is it worse to be offended because some one cant openly kiss someone in public or that those streets those people are able to walk about on are built on the bodies of those workers who've perished?

Like posters who actually live in the region have stated, public sogns of affection are illegal irrespective if youre gay straight or what ever.

Edit dont know why I quoted the first poster…this reply was in response to @moses

This thread is specifically about the lgbt thing, the migrant worker deaths has been spoken about at length in others and given as a reason for boycotting. Though oddly, that facet of the situation is also met with a bunch of barely coherent whataboutism

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There is a whole other thread on the issues. This is just about a dumb statement and why it is in fact dumb.

That thread has almost exactly the same posters with the same whataboutism.

This dumb statement?

"These are Muslim countries, they have very different cultural starting point for us. I think it's important when you're a visitor to a country that you respect the culture of your host nation."

 

[moses]

Bluster? No.

That you are using the law they have in which you cant show public signs of affection to call for a boycott rather than the deaths of workers used to build the stadia and infrastructure is what annoys me. Is it worse to be offended because some one cant openly kiss someone in public or that those streets those people are able to walk about on are built on the bodies of those workers who've perished?

Like posters who actually live in the region have stated, public sogns of affection are illegal irrespective if youre gay straight or what ever.

Edit dont know why I quoted the first poster…this reply was in response to @moses

Well you can stop being annoyed and just find the correct thread. Literally nobody holds that position. It's a nonsense. You are in a thread about a statement by a British politician aimed at LGBT fans. That what the thread is about. And its the backdrop of homosexuality being criminalised that is the real issue, otherwise the British politician need not have specified LGBT people.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Using essentially slave labour to build the very stadiums in which the matches will be played feels like a far more tangible reason to object to this World Cup than displeasure with the host nation’s foreign policies. Which will be an issue at most tournaments in major nations (hence the whataboutism in this thread)

What nonsense. Invading counties, killing innocent people is less worse than having bad labour laws? I don't like with the policy these middle eastern countries have with low income workers but it's in no morality line worse than what western countries have done and continue to do around the world in terms of invasion and supporting authoritarians. It's just an argument to make them slept better at night and continue to vilify one part of the world.

It's infuriating when these countries continue to kill people in this part of the globe and brush it aside as nothing, then those countries expect people in that area effected by this to listen to their morality on other issues (right those countries might actually be in that specific issue).

 

[mctrials23]

Seems entirely sensible to warn people about the backwards culture they will be subject to if they go.

They don't tend to muck about in many of these countries so warning people seems fantastically sensible. Is it backwards? Yes. Does your indignation or opposition to this change anything? No.

You can be realistic about the reality of it without endorsing it. People seem to forget that until you fix a problem, the problem still exists and you need to mitigate the risk it creates for you. You can be as high and mighty as you like but you will still be suffering the consequences either way.

 

[moses]

This dumb statement?

"These are Muslim countries, they have very different cultural starting point for us. I think it's important when you're a visitor to a country that you respect the culture of your host nation."

This one, where he specified gay fans.

"Cleverly said: “I have spoken to the Qatari authorities in the past about gay football fans going to watch the World Cup and how they will treat our fans and international fans. They want to make sure that football fans are safe, secure and enjoy themselves. And they know that that means they are going to have to make some compromises in terms of what is an Islamic country with a very different set of cultural norms to our own.

“One of the things I would say for football fans is, you know, please do be respectful of the host nation. They are trying to ensure that people can be themselves and enjoy the football, and I think with a little bit of flex and compromise at both ends, it can be a safe, secure and exciting World Cup.”

 

[Roane]

Why is all the ire focussed on Qatar?

I mean generally sure if you dislike or hate laws and/or practises there have at it.

However the whole their culture is backwards and their religion is XYZ in context of the world cup is bizarre to me.

It was given to them by who? And it was Cleverly who gave the interview. That's where the criticism should be.

People making points about black people at a KKK BBQ etc. Sure the KKK are cnuts and you wouldn't go to their BBQ and be respectful etc. But if it was a black caucus or society that set up the BBQ and asked for there to be respect then surely the focus would be and should be them not the KKK?

 

[Siorac]

What nonsense. Invading counties, killing innocent people is less worse than having bad labour laws? I don't like with the policy these middle eastern countries have with low income workers but it's in no morality line worse than what western countries have done and continue to do around the world in terms of invasion and supporting authoritarians. It's just an argument to make them slept better at night and continue to vilify one part of the world.

It's infuriating when these countries continue to kill people in this part of the globe and brush it aside as nothing, then those countries expect people in that area effected by this to listen to their morality on other issues (right those countries might actually be in that specific issue).

But I am not a western country. I haven't invaded anyone nor do I sponsor authoritarians.

Can I express an opinion about laws I find abhorrent without having tedious whataboutisms jammed down my throat? ("but what about Iraq? what about the East India Company? what about that one politician who had sex with underage girls?" etc.)

It's really exhausting because the only aim is to shut down any and all discussion. There will always be another injustice you can point at, another form of oppression, historical or ongoing, that you can point to and smugly say 'but what about those, why aren't you worried about those, too? Gotcha!' - because the point is to kill discussion so that injustices never actually get challenged, lest someone upsets the status quo.

 

[moses]

Seems entirely sensible to warn people about the backwards culture they will be subject to if they go.

They don't tend to muck about in many of these countries so warning people seems fantastically sensible. Is it backwards? Yes. Does your indignation or opposition to this change anything? No.

You can be realistic about the reality of it without endorsing it. People seem to forget that until you fix a problem, the problem still exists and you need to mitigate the risk it creates for you. You can be as high and mighty as you like but you will still be suffering the consequences either way.

Yes, and a general statement where there wasn't a specified onus on gay fans to compromise would not have caused this reaction. It could feel that for a British member of the LGBT community their government did a bit of the 'two sides to this', when there clearly isn't. So that is at least part of the reaction. And then of course the whole conversation widens to the laws and cultures.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

This thread is specifically about the lgbt thing, the migrant worker deaths has been spoken about at length in others and given as a reason for boycotting. Though oddly, that facet of the situation is also met with a bunch of barely coherent whataboutism

As others who live in the region have already said no public sings of affection irrespective of you being lgbtq or straight.

Well you can stop being annoyed and just find the correct thread. Literally nobody holds that position. It's a nonsense. You are in a thread about a statement by a British politician aimed at LGBT fans. That what the thread is about. And its the backdrop of homosexuality being criminalised that is the real issue, otherwise the British politician need not have specified LGBT people.

Well thats on the politician. He said specifically LGBTQ, and people thought it was only targetting them but as posters who live in the area have already said its ALL public shows of affection be they straight or LGBTQ.

Apologies for me taking the death of migrants being more important than some one being able to kiss some one in public in a country in which its not allowed.

 

[moses]

But I am not a western country. I haven't invaded anyone nor do I sponsor authoritarians.

Can I express an opinion about laws I find abhorrent without having tedious whataboutisms jammed down my throat? ("but what about Iraq? what about the East India Company? what about that one politician who had sex with underage girls?" etc.)

It's really exhausting because the only aim is to shut down any and all discussion. There will always be another injustice you can point at, another form of oppression, historical or ongoing, that you can point to and smugly say 'but what about those, why aren't you worried about those, too? Gotcha!' - because the point is to kill discussion so that injustices never actually get challenged, lest someone upsets the status quo.

No, this happened in the other thread where 'people' did cartwheels to turn this into a west v Islam conversation. Which I personally find vile.

 

[Wumminator]

As others who live in the region have already said no public sings of affection irrespective of you being lgbtq or straight ots


Well thats on the politician. He said specifically LGBTQ, and people thought it was only targetting them but as posters who live in the area have already said its ALL public shows of affection be they straight or LGBTQ.

Apologies for me taking the deathas more important some one being able to kiss some one in public in a country in which its not allowed.

What on Earth are you on about. People have been criticising this World Cup for all kinds of reasons.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This one, where he specified gay fans.

"Cleverly said: “I have spoken to the Qatari authorities in the past about gay football fans going to watch the World Cup and how they will treat our fans and international fans. They want to make sure that football fans are safe, secure and enjoy themselves. And they know that that means they are going to have to make some compromises in terms of what is an Islamic country with a very different set of cultural norms to our own.

“One of the things I would say for football fans is, you know, please do be respectful of the host nation. They are trying to ensure that people can be themselves and enjoy the football, and I think with a little bit of flex and compromise at both ends, it can be a safe, secure and exciting World Cup.”

That’s sufficiently vague to not get too worked up about. As it could equally apply to people planning on getting shit-faced, or wearing revealing clothing.

Thinking about Ingerland fans abroad, in terms of behaviour that might offend a Muslim host country, you can think of all sorts of ways they could cause offence before you‘d have to worry about LGBT fans.

You could easily interpret was he said as a) Qatar have previously told me they want to make sure everyone, including gay fans, enjoys themselves but b) everyone needs to remember this is a Muslim country and moderate their behaviour accordingly.

 

[moses]

As others who live in the region have already said no public sings of affection irrespective of you being lgbtq or straight ots


Well thats on the politician. He said specifically LGBTQ, and people thought it was only targetting them but as posters who live in the area have already said its ALL public shows of affection be they straight or LGBTQ.

Apologies for me taking the deathas more important some one being able to kiss some one in public in a country in which its not allowed.

Do you actually not understand different threads having different focus?

This is the thread to discuss the workers.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/boycott-the-qatar-world-cup.468222/

It's not an exclusive choice. You are allowed to care about oppressive labour and discriminatory social laws.

Also I say again, homosexuality is criminalised. That seems to make no impact on you and that's fine, but that is a cause of concern for many,

 

[moses]

That’s sufficiently vague to not get too worked up about. As it could equally apply to people planning on getting shit-faced, or wearing revealing clothing.

Thinking about Ingerland fans abroad, in terms of behaviour that might offend a Muslim host country, you can think of all sorts of ways they could cause offence before you‘d have to worry about LGBT fans.

You could easily interpret was he said as a) Qatar have previously told me they want to make sure everyone, including gay fans, enjoys themselves but b) everyone needs to remember this is a Muslim country and moderate their behaviour accordingly.

Yes, but in a country where homosexuality is criminlaised, mentioning gay fans and a need to compromise, I can see why a gay fan might feel betrayed. As I said above, a general statement might have been better PR, if not their true feelings.

 

[Grylte]

Being gay is not a social norm. It's a human norm.

A social norm would be drinking alcohol. A choice. I think most accept the ban on that as a rule you can go along with.

The average gay enjoying a bit of penis isn't a choice. It's who he is. It's not downing a can of Carling.

This is simple stuff.

It sounds like you think only men are gay.
I bet quite a few muslims don't mind watching 2 gay girls having some fun.

 

[hasanejaz88]

But I am not a western country. I haven't invaded anyone nor do I sponsor authoritarians.

Can I express an opinion about laws I find abhorrent without having tedious whataboutisms jammed down my throat? ("but what about Iraq? what about the East India Company? what about that one politician who had sex with underage girls?" etc.)

It's really exhausting because the only aim is to shut down any and all discussion. There will always be another injustice you can point at, another form of oppression, historical or ongoing, that you can point to and smugly say 'but what about those, why aren't you worried about those, too? Gotcha!' - because the point is to kill discussion so that injustices never actually get challenged, lest someone upsets the status quo.

No you aren't a western country, but when you actively say labour laws are worse than invading counties and killing innocent people then you are part of the problem and basically confirming what others here are trying to say about the hypocrisy of how one group of countries (predominately brown and Muslim) are treated compared to others who themselves have horrible, way worse even, records of human rights recently.

I've never come on here and said it's okay to have laws that punish homosexuality, have horrific labour laws, or to not have a democracy, so I would never defend that. But to hear people say invading counties is not atleast equivalent to this, and therefore its fine too have tournaments there, is enraging and disrespectful to the people who identify with the those effected (just like how many are identifying with LGBT people and their problems in the middle east).

So yea, please, don't expect them to respect your morality if you can't respect others lives.

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

Be respectful… sounds nice in the surface but we know what it means. I am tired of this notion of all cultures being equal, like we’re supposed to respect their right to hate and discriminate.

 

[moses]

No you aren't a western country, but when you actively say labour laws are worse than invading counties and killing innocent people then you are part of the problem and basically confirming what others here are trying to say about the hypocrisy of how one group of countries (predominately brown and Muslim) are treated compared to others who themselves have horrible, way worse even, records of human rights recently.

I've never come on here and said it's okay to have laws that punish homosexuality, have horrific labour laws, or to not have a democracy, so I would never defend that. But to hear people say invading counties is not atleast equivalent to this, and therefore its fine too have tournaments there, is enraging and disrespectful to the people who identify with the those effected (just like how many are identifying with LGBT people and their problems in the middle east).

So yea, please, don't expect them to respect your morality if you can't respect others lives.

But you get very annoyed at others who hold those same opinions and call them anti islamic and hypocritical? It seems odd to be so consistently annoyed with people who agree with you. Why? And why are you so obsessed with bombs and invasions in these discussion about Qatar, whether it be workers or LGBT rights?

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Do you actually not understand different threads having different focus?

This is the thread to discuss the workers. It's not an exclusive choice. You are allowed to care about oppressive labour and discriminatory social laws.

Also I say again, homosexuality is criminalised. That seems to make no impact on you and that's fine, but that is a cause of concern for many,

Like I quite clearly stated this is on the politician who targetted the LGBTQ community, you and other posters have taken it as bash the Qatari regime for a British politician saying you shouldnt be showing public signs of affection, as only anti LGBTQ where as other posters who live in the region keep saying no public shows of affection are allowed irrespective of sexual orientation.

YOU CANT SHOW ANY FORM OF PUBLIC AFFECTION IRRESPECTIVE OF YOU BEING STRAIGHT GAY BI ETC ETC

 

[HTG]

Oh and there were quite a few people criticising Russia for the queer rights situation there. I remember this distinctly, because I happen to be one of these people. I also specifically remember criticising Mo Salah for his relationship to Kadyrov and his raving endorsement of him. Which I got laughed at for on here. Salah is still an honorary citizen of Chechnya, by the way.

 

[moses]

Like I quite clearly stated this is on the politician who targetted the LGBTQ community, you and other posters have taken it as bash the Qatari regime for a British politician saying you shouldnt be showing public signs of affection, as only anti LGBTQ where as other posters who live in the region keep saying no public shows of affection are allowed irrespective of sexual orientation.

YOU CANT SHOW ANY FORM OF PUBLIC AFFECTION IRRESPECTIVE OF YOU BEING STRAIGHT GAY BI ETC ETC

Again, if you see the other thread, you will see opposition to the regime and solidarity with the LGBT community predates the ministers statement. This thread is a reaction to the minister, but none of the arguments are.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Again, if you see the other thread, you will see opposition to the regime and solidarity with the LGBT community predates the ministers statement. This thread is a reaction to the minister, but none of the arguments are.

Well I was initially replying to the OP (he specifically used the politicians statement) before you and others jumped in and told me I was wrong for bring the deaths of migrants into a public show of affection showdown.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

What on Earth are you on about. People have been criticising this World Cup for all kinds of reasons.

You literally jumped in half way through a conversation

 

[Abizzz]

Who defines what a human right is though? Societies.
Theirs are determined by their society and what they deem as a right. What you deem as an essential right, they don't.

For instance over the last couple of years, what were deemed iron-clad rights of movement, speech, opinion etc had to essentially be ripped away by societies to combat a global crisis. The position of these societies had shifted and so did the perception of rights.

In some societies it's a right to walk around naked. If you did it in any UK city, you would be arrested for indecent exposure, be put in prison, put on a sex register, lose your job, etc.

If we hosted a world cup, I wouldn't care wherever anyone came from, if they exposed themselves in front of my kids, I'm calling the police on them. World cups do not suspend societies.

The folks to blame if the norms, cultures, and laws of the Qatari society were considered at odds with the values of a world cup are the decision makers. Every part of what Qatar is about was open for the world to see, and they were chosen anyway.

All I'm saying is if these laws are at odds with who you are, do not go. In countries like this, even public displays of physical affection (regardless of gender) that are considered normal in many nations could lead to an arrest.

Be that as it may the society I'm currently in values free speech. And I value decency. As such I think it's fair for me to say I find some aspects of the Qatari society cruel, indecent and medieval. They have every right to be cruel, indecent and medieval, they may do as they like, but that doesn't free them from being described as such.