I feel exactly the same. I want to see Pogba play for us under another manager.
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You are probably right and explains why he's a dinosaur in his approach where other managers are more fluid and allow players to make decisions rather than this robotic approach. I think Jose in getting a result is fine with that approach but football is now more about winning games than not losing them. Going to your rival and not losing in the past was a 'decent result', not anymore. Not losing away from home equally, not anymore. Trying to knick a result in the last 10 mins, not anymore.
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He implied that Mourinho was putting the wrong players around Pogba and using the wrong tactics to make him look bad. So then we could have been good all along, right?
You must have some inside info, since you know that Mourinho is taking instructions from Pogba on how to play. You also seem to know who Pogba wants to play with as well.
From what I understood, you implied that Mourinho played the worse players with Pogba to make him look bad. And now he played a high line with more pressing to make us look better without Pogba.
No I don't think we've been shit because of Pogba. Why would I think that when he's our best player?
Well, I have several Juve fans friends who kept telling me when they sold him that he's a Youtube player that lacks responsibility and the deal was better for them and I used to argue with them with stats and videos etc till I had to admit they were right this year.
Yeah, but to what extent does it for the best employees? In my experience, the very best get the job done despite having bad managers. At the very least, they do the basic things well. I think Pogba has stretched this narrative really. Fine, he doesn't fancy his manager but should it be so bad that
I get your point but in this Pogba case, how exactly has Jose thrown Pogba under the bus? Surely, it can't still be that post World Cup comment, could it? What I remember this season is Jose almost appearing like an idiot in his constant attempts at praising Pogba.
I have several Juve friends and they hated seeing him go. Some described him as the next Zidane in that he was a tall players with wonderful technique pulling off magic. But they were also quite happy with the business they pulled off following that. Pjanic was really cheap.
And him lacking responsibility didn't seem to affect the fact that they had the best midfield in the world. If he was bringing the midfield unit down, they wouldn't have been the best midfield unit in the world.
Im not going to compare Pogba's stats to Matic for the last season because Pogba is miles ahead. But lets take this season for example
the only thing Matic is better in stats is he get dispossessed less and that is because he is less creative and more safe and backward passer and never try to take on players which make our midfield look dull.
the only thing Matic is better in stats is he get dispossessed less and that is because he is less creative and more safe and backward passer and never try to take on players which make our midfield look dull.
That means they were divided on him as much as us anyway.
France fans too are the same.
Also Juve weren't affected much by his leaving as they weren't building around him from the start.
I don't have a problem with Matic being less adventurous than Pogba. I have a problem with Matic's defensive ability as that's his role. I don't like how he's not some great passer, nor mobile. We have Pogba, why is Matic not suited to complimenting Pogba?
I am actually a big Serie A fan so I know a bit about what Pogba was like at Juventus. The thing about Pogba at Juventus that a lot of people here either don't realize or deny is that Pogba, just as he is now at United and with France, was an incredibly talented player who exhibited inconsistency and was never the leader of the team. At Juventus, he was surrounded by leaders and he was seen more as a gifted young lad. That's why his weaknesses and failings were never amplified. They were always seen as part of the package when you have a talented young lad who still has a lot to learn.
The biggest mistake United has made with Pogba is to pay so much for him and rely on him for leadership. Pogba came in as the super star who would drag United back to glory. Unfortunately, that's not what Pogba is cut out for. If United surrounds Pogba with leaders or he moves to a club with leaders all around, Pogba's incredible talents will shine out in a way it has only done in glimpses at United.
That is part of the problem, I believe. You could see when they played together how Pogba knew when Zlatan was gonna make a run. People who think playing Perreira, Fred, Herrera and Mata is gonna make a big difference just because they are technical players are just in denial.
My comment wasn't regarding Mourinho staying here long term and changing the way we play. Getting Mourinho to play a high pressing team also makes no sense, because he's not good at that, he's a defensive counter attacking coach. My comment was in regards to Pogba and his suitability to a high pressing team. There just isn't any. Juventus played a balanced line and moderate pressing, while France play a low line with minimal pressing.
Pogba's strengths are his passing range/vision which allow him to find runners from deep positions and his ability to move up the pitch on and off the ball using his physical qualities. He is also very good at 1v1s. He is slow off the mark and slow to get back into position. He is a fantastic player with fantastic qualities but he does not suit all systems.
Pogba is NOT lazy. And I clearly said that Pogba's issue is work rate in specific areas. Namely in the transitional phases when the ball is lost. Ozil covers a truck load of distance during a game, this doesnt change the fact that he does not recover the ball during transition well.
It's sad how many supposed fans I see buying into it despite Mourinho's history of creating a poisonous environment at clubs and losing dressing rooms due to personal wars with players as he scapegoats them, especially flair ones, while Pogba has had no "viral" issues at Juventus or when he's with France.
For the past 2 plus years Pogba has been key to most of what we have achieved as a team. Despite that, he has also been extremely inconsistent and worst, at times he looked disinterested.
Ideally, I want a Pogba with improved disciplined and work rate to be here. No one can deny is ability! But how do we explain the many "Southampton episodes"?
It's extremely problematic when opposition start to target your star man as a weak point.
Ideally, I want a Pogba with improved disciplined and work rate to be here. No one can deny is ability! But how do we explain the many "Southampton episodes"?
It's extremely problematic when opposition start to target your star man as a weak point.
Sorry but when it comes to decision making, Martial isn't even close to Pogba.
It's like only their bad decisions are counted against them while their many intelligent decisions are swept under the rug
Is that a serious question?
Enlighten us.
If you don't want to, you don't have to. There are other clubs ahead of us in the table that you can start supporting.
They play completely different positions, Pogba is obviously not gonna sit in front of the defence.
What Pogba lacks is any feeling for the club , the shirt and the fans he is all about himself surely to god that is obvious to everyone
I give in !!
A well thought out response !!
Except they don't
and what position did Matic play?
While my question was clear about things the players can do more than the position. We take yesterday where Matic got praised, he played in LCM role beside Herera, where Herera ran more all over the pitch because of Matic's incompetence of doing all of his defensive duties alone and his complete incompetence in offering any attacking threat.
We saw Pogba many many times in the 4231 system where he was our left central midfielder doing a great job beside offering great attacking options.
The only thing that Matic can do better is play safe. We all know He is being picked up because he is Jose's little boy who do everything without questioning the manager even if he plays like shit.
He seems to treat football as a joke. Very laid back. Very talented no doubt, but looks like he lacks effort.
Unless he is not actually capable of working hard which would be more of a concern.
I remember thinking if i were to be a sports superstar, it would either be snooker or golf or perhaps tennis. There is no way i could play for united. I just would not be able to motivate myself 50 games a season. Pogba strikes me as similar. Some games he appears motivated. Most games he looks like he is not.
I remember when i was young, when i was motivated i played much better. But when i could not be bothered, as in i just wanted to do something else, i was terrible and i had good talent. But if you dont work hard, talent come for nothing in athletic sports like football or rugby. Pogba comes across as the same. Not motivated most of the time and hence does not look good.
Unless he is not actually capable of working hard which would be more of a concern.
I remember thinking if i were to be a sports superstar, it would either be snooker or golf or perhaps tennis. There is no way i could play for united. I just would not be able to motivate myself 50 games a season. Pogba strikes me as similar. Some games he appears motivated. Most games he looks like he is not.
I remember when i was young, when i was motivated i played much better. But when i could not be bothered, as in i just wanted to do something else, i was terrible and i had good talent. But if you dont work hard, talent come for nothing in athletic sports like football or rugby. Pogba comes across as the same. Not motivated most of the time and hence does not look good.
Everything you've said here is based on your assumptions or feelings about someone you don't know and have seen briefly on tv a couple of times a week. It would be absurd to suggest any of that is true as Pogba wouldn't be anywhere near where he is now if it was.
I think it would be more likely to suggest that the reason we're seeing poor form from Pogba is because he doesn't agree with the way the team play under Mourinho, but unfortunately he isn't paid to voice his opinion to the media or in the dressing room, he's paid to win football matches and do as he's told on the field. Perhaps there's a maturity issue but you could say the same thing about Martial.
Anyone who thinks they can get the manager sacked or 'out live' the manager so they can have what they want shouldn't have a place at our club.
So are you happy with the way United plays under Mourinho? Players shouldn't be able to voice their opinion when it's clearly not goinf in the right direction? You expect players to shut their mouth not matter what even if the coach's choices are sometimes nonsense? That's not how it works, not even remotely. I don't think that it would have worked fine had players like Gerrard played under Mourinho.
I'm amazed when I see the lack of perspective about Pogba here. Some don't realize that his other coaches totally managed to made him play where they wanted. Look at Pogba in the french national team, he becamse a team leader playing far more defensively than he's used to. But i played his part, was really good and never complained a second. He was manageable at Juventus, he is with France, he was under LVG. There's only a problem with Mourinho but yeah, keep pretending it's a matter of attitude and that he should play and keep his mouth shut. Good luck attracting the players you need while playing europa league.
Deschamps is on record for saying Pogba has been misunderstood and his media image is very complicated
His comments:
"First of all there is an image of Paul that doesn’t correspond to who he is. Maybe it is because he is a bit eccentric, a bit demonstrative. He has been with me since 2013 – that is five years now – and the way he functions is not about him for himself, it is him as part of the group. That is really important."
For Paul it depends not only on him but also the team he is in, the collective way of playing. It is not a case of one player who makes the team win.”
All have his coaches have praised his proffesionalism and work ethic it's only mourinho that has problems . He doesn't know how to handle the big players the talented players. kdb was accused of being 'lazy' in training and 'bad attitude' , he turned Chelsea fans on Hazard , last season people made aall kind of accusations against Martial - the body language experts were out in full force to justify Mourinhos handling of him after Sanchez arrived the same is happening today with Pogba and he's got a section of our fans fooled once again .probably they are the same ones who advocated swapping Martial for Willian in the summer
His comments:
"First of all there is an image of Paul that doesn’t correspond to who he is. Maybe it is because he is a bit eccentric, a bit demonstrative. He has been with me since 2013 – that is five years now – and the way he functions is not about him for himself, it is him as part of the group. That is really important."
For Paul it depends not only on him but also the team he is in, the collective way of playing. It is not a case of one player who makes the team win.”
All have his coaches have praised his proffesionalism and work ethic it's only mourinho that has problems . He doesn't know how to handle the big players the talented players. kdb was accused of being 'lazy' in training and 'bad attitude' , he turned Chelsea fans on Hazard , last season people made aall kind of accusations against Martial - the body language experts were out in full force to justify Mourinhos handling of him after Sanchez arrived the same is happening today with Pogba and he's got a section of our fans fooled once again .probably they are the same ones who advocated swapping Martial for Willian in the summer
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Let it go, Deschamps doesn't know Pogba the way experts on this forum do, he's an egomaniac that doesn't respect the jersey and voluntarily tanks the team because he doesn't respect the club and only thinks about his own situation. And what a bad haircut, it really shows how selfish he is.
Do you not think Dechampes as a National Coach has a vested interest in protecting the perception of national players?
Ed ? The opposite was always said against Mourinho, that he doesn't have a plan and lets the attacking players do the job on their own which leads to incoherent attacking unit.
No point putting up all this over here. In football, only Mourinho's words and thoughts are gospel.
Maybe, and that's exactly why it's a shame that Mourinho doesn't protect his players, especially the younger ones. The egomaniac only cares about himself.
Glad hes been dropped.
I dont care what anyone says he amongst many other players definitely purposely downed tools earlier in the season untill they realized jose wasnt getting the sack.
Needs to happen more with these over paid prima donnas.
I dont care what anyone says he amongst many other players definitely purposely downed tools earlier in the season untill they realized jose wasnt getting the sack.
Needs to happen more with these over paid prima donnas.
Sometimes the best players don't make the best team.
Pogba is, next to DeGea and Martial, the standout in our squad. Nobody can argue that. However, when you look at the players around him and the system the manager likes most, it's possible to see him as a square peg in a round hole.
With Mou the midfield has a specific role, which focuses on recycling the ball. That's not Pogba's game. He wants touches, he wants to impose himself on matches. Thats not really what we are set up for. The likes of Lingard and Rashford want the ball early, they want a give and go so they can attack space. Patient build up isn't their strength. They are not the uber technical players needed for that.
Pogba hasn't consistently played with our best passing players and he'd probably look better alongside them. Still I do wonder whether there's a natural fit. It's like when Zlatan went to Barcelona: great player wrong system.
Paul's a gem and that neame he will shine on occasion. You have to ask if this is best light for him though.
Pogba is, next to DeGea and Martial, the standout in our squad. Nobody can argue that. However, when you look at the players around him and the system the manager likes most, it's possible to see him as a square peg in a round hole.
With Mou the midfield has a specific role, which focuses on recycling the ball. That's not Pogba's game. He wants touches, he wants to impose himself on matches. Thats not really what we are set up for. The likes of Lingard and Rashford want the ball early, they want a give and go so they can attack space. Patient build up isn't their strength. They are not the uber technical players needed for that.
Pogba hasn't consistently played with our best passing players and he'd probably look better alongside them. Still I do wonder whether there's a natural fit. It's like when Zlatan went to Barcelona: great player wrong system.
Paul's a gem and that neame he will shine on occasion. You have to ask if this is best light for him though.
That's a recurrent problem when a talented player plays in a team that doesn't much his ambitions. De Bryune had similar problems before Pep, Messi also suffers from the same in the Argentina NT, Hazard has been victim of this for several times. To get consistency from a Player like Pogba you need a combination of both a good manager and a great team. Great players need motivation.
National management works a bit differently though. You see your players very briefly for short bursts rather than week in week out.
For a player to be motivated to play for their country in major tournaments which only occur once every 4 years its not a hard job. The players know they will forever be remembered as hero's etc if they win games in the few chances they get for their country.
For club level games there's always next season or theres always the next manager or next transfer window etc to switch things up.
I'm not relating this to Pogbas case it's just a general point. A lot of players are able to display unusual form in country jersies which don't always correlate to their club level consistency.
Now compare Rashford and Young. Seriously man, they play two different roles Pogba and Matic. I’m definitely agreeing Pogba is a superior footballer to Matic but I don’t quite think a stats comparison between these two is validIm not going to compare Pogba's stats to Matic for the last season because Pogba is miles ahead. But lets take this season for example
the only thing Matic is better in stats is he get dispossessed less and that is because he is less creative and more safe and backward passer and never try to take on players which make our midfield look dull.
I think it's important to remember that Mourinho had turned plenty of Chelsea fans against Hazard at one point. He's always had a problem with players whose personalities he deems "unprofessional" but those players have never actually done anything that bad on or off the pitch and they always continue forward in their career after he leaves. It'll be the same with Pogba. The only questions here is whether Pogba will leave at the end of the season along with Mourinho.
Yesterday Matic played in the Same role Pogba played last two season in the 4231 system as LCM. Yet Jose chose Matic over Pogba. I know they are two different footballers but they share positions they can both play in, just Pogba is a better player offering much more in any position they share, while I do agree Pogba can not play any deeper role that Matic play. My point is clear, whenever Herera is playing we should play Pogba alongside him not Matic.
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