Zlatan Ibrahimovic
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
- Status
Such a bully.If you don't like Zlatan you have no heart.
His goals are quite something. Apologies for random bump, but he really is one hell of a footballer. So unfortunate for him that Messi and Ronaldo are around. He should have won a Ballon d'Or by now.
Not really, he's a top top world class player but I can't think of a season in the past 10 years he's had that's been worthy of the Ballon D'or, even if you minus Messi and Ronaldo I think a few other players would have won it instead of Ibra anyway.
I came back into this thread to actually change the way I worded that
Maybe saying "should have" is a bit strong. He may have though. He'd have been at Madrid/Barca no doubt, and without the likes of Messi/Ronaldo there - he'd have been the star man I'm sure. He was always not going to thrive at Barca due to the team having the "man" in Messi.Still, if someone formed a collection of the best 10 goals of a player's career - then I don't think there are many players out there that would trump his collection. They really are incredible goals. All different, all unique. So technically gifted.
It annoys me that I disliked him for so long that I couldn't admire him. His arrogance pissed me off, but he wouldn't be the same player without it. Just seeing that video of his goals - I just can't believe the goals he's scored.
How much do you watch of him? He had the same goals and assist output as Messi in the same amount of games last year. He's also averaging the same amount of goals as Cristiano and Messi the last two years in the NT - and he plays for a team who has a terrible team which he carries alone. Bar Zlatan, you could fill roughly 40 English squads before the second best Swede would make the squad.
Ronaldo and Messi might be the most prolific goal scorers we've witnessed but even they can't match the sheer variety and quality of finishes that Zlatan has in his locker. He's just such a tremendous player and I'm quite disappointed that we never got to see him in the EPL. Moreover, he left AC Milan for PSG the very year that I moved here 
I think his capacity for strange and spectacular goals actually hurts him in terms of how people rank him. Put those 'highlight reel' goals together with his slightly outlandish look (height, hair... nose), his infamous arrogance, endless hilarious quotability, the fact that he's spent so little of his career in any of the current (and recent) 'big three' leagues, and the fact that he plays for a very weak international team.
What you get is a player who most people don't watch that often and are exposed to mainly in the form of viral wonder-goals or trick shots and amusingly cocksure quotes, and who won't win one of the top leagues, the CL, the EC or the WC. It's understandable that many people think of him as a sort of novelty, rather than seriously considering his place in the 'best players' hierarchy.
What you get is a player who most people don't watch that often and are exposed to mainly in the form of viral wonder-goals or trick shots and amusingly cocksure quotes, and who won't win one of the top leagues, the CL, the EC or the WC. It's understandable that many people think of him as a sort of novelty, rather than seriously considering his place in the 'best players' hierarchy.
I can't think of anyone, past or present, who can match the power he generates in his shots. Even from a standstill he can rocket the ball in from 30 yards. It's incredible. And those kicks with the underside of his boot or his heel or whatever, just lightspeed into the back of the net. Just seems like a small nuclear bomb goes off whenever he makes contact with the ball.
Anyone else think he'd be considered up there with Messi and Ronaldo (in the same way Suárez was) if he played in the Premier League?
Absolutely. I also think that the majority of the British people started giving him his due credit only after he scored 4 goals against England in a friendly.
For me he started off being very overrated, spoke too highly of himself and the coaches kind of pushed him on to do so as well. In the end he never performed anywhere the way he spoke and people ended up disliking him, fair and square, and then that carries on to now.
Even if changed completely in 2012 as a player and is now much more mature and more of a leader.
I think Messi's change has made Ibrahimovic a much more interesting topic. Last year they scored, assisted and played as many games overall and Ibrahimovic had the better year in the Champions League with 10 goals in 7 games - for an inferior team.
Zlatan has also like Ronaldo/Messi averaged slightly above a goal or assist per game in the Champions League since reaching his peak - both Messi and Ronaldo only have one year where they were statistically superior to Zlatan in that regard. Ronaldo's crazy 13-14 and Messi's 11-12.
Zlatan's 10 goals in 7 games(Same as Di Stefano's best), as his best season is above the likes of Eusebio(9 goals), van Basten(10 goals in 10 games), Ronaldo, Romario, RVN(14 in 11), Henry, Messi (14 goals in 11) etc.
The only top rated top scorers I could find who has toped Zlatan's best goal scoring season are;
Gerd Muller 14 goals 7 games
Puskas 12 goals in 7 games
Ronaldo 17 goals in 11 games
His NT performances, have been incredible as well averaging a goal per game since reaching his peak. Only Messi and Ronaldo has similar statistics there - but Messi plays with excellent world class players and Ronaldo's team is much much better than Sweden as well.
It is incredible that he has a 1:1 goals per game ratio, while his goalscoring is his weakness as he is a playmaker primarily. It is becoming an interesting topic for people who still rate Messi as one of the best, even if he's extremely lazy and currently mainly provides moment of magic - similar mould to Zlatan.
Hopefully his injury, which they can't diagnose, won't be the end of his peak.
In the Swedish NT you get the feeling that he takes on all responsibility and the team really buys in to it and it takes the pressure of them and gives them a lot of self belief and hope. A constant response to the reporters about facing Ronaldo, Messi, Germany or whatever is "They have some good players, but we have Zlatan.".
Our current team is so incredibly shit talent wise, one of our worst sides ever - but still they perform at an okay level thanks to him. Previously he was always that huge super star - who actually often made the team worse.
Our current team is so incredibly shit talent wise, one of our worst sides ever - but still they perform at an okay level thanks to him. Previously he was always that huge super star - who actually often made the team worse.
Yes. But it's often been the case that the star-performing attacker in the Premiership is elevated beyond the likes of Ibrahimovic, Falcao, Robben, etc, towards the company of Messi and Ronaldo. Aguero and Suarez are the best examples of that, as was Van Persie and previously Rooney at the peak of their powers. Ibrahimovic's problem is only one of familiarity or proximity - i.e. he'll get all the dues after he's rattled in a couple of worldies in the Champions League or against England - but at other times he'll fly under the radar, irrespective of how he is performing each week.
Shame he's playing in the French league isn't it.
Henry was even better in my opinion and if my memory serves me well, majority of caf members were laughing when someone brought the Henry vs Ronaldo debate. so I'm not sure how Ibra can compare with him and Messi.
Henry isn't at the level of Messi that is for certain. I think it is fair enough to believe Henry reached the higher peak than Zlatan - I do myself - but I feel that Henry is very misunderstood when people talk about him.
People often forget that Henry has the assist record in the EPL with 20 in one season, his record overall that season was 24 assists and 32 goals, 56 points, in 55 matches - 7 goals in the CL in 11 games. Zlatan's best season he scored 41 goals and 11 assists in 45 matches - 10 in the CL in 7 games.
So difficult to compare them, Zlatan is a better goalscorer, a goalscoring playmaker who is the teams main playmaker where Henry was more of an all action type of striker. I can't think of a better goalscoring playmaker than Zlatan bar Messi of course, unless we go really far back in history.
He's in the discussion for third best player in the world along with the likes of Suarez, Aguero and Robben. He didn't play in a high profile league and he never really did it in the Champions league, but undoubtedly one of the best of his generation. Fatastic ability. a
and @Brwned I think he would be considered up there by the masses if he played either here or in a La liga and produced the same performances and stats. Big game performances is something fans swear by and he doesn't have many high profile ones on his cv.
and @Brwned I think he would be considered up there by the masses if he played either here or in a La liga and produced the same performances and stats. Big game performances is something fans swear by and he doesn't have many high profile ones on his cv.
Did what? Win it?
Difficult to consider him up there with the best when he's not played in a decent league for four years, while similarly playing for a team that is so significantly better than its league peers in PSG. And his stint at Barca, in a strong league, was decidedly average. Even if his numbers stack up with the best, the general standard of his opponents seriously prejudices his credentials.
He's obviously top class, but third best? No. Not for me, anyway. He's performed well once, really, in Europe - last season - and his return was heavily abetted by a routing of Anderlecht.
And his record with the NT isn't that great. 51 goals in 101 apps. Robbie Keane has 65 in 136 for Ireland. Eto'o has 56 in 117 for Cameroon. JD Tomasson has 52 in 112 for Denmark. Mutu(!)- 35 in 77 for Romania. Dennis Law - 30 in 55 for Scotland. Suker - 45 in 69 for Croatia. Koller - 55 in 91 for Czech Republic. Frei - 42 in 86 for Switzerland. All of these, you could say, have been in teams relatively as weak as the Sweden team of which Ibra has been a part.
The point is, good players in weaker national teams, tend to do well regardless of their teammates.
He's obviously top class, but third best? No. Not for me, anyway. He's performed well once, really, in Europe - last season - and his return was heavily abetted by a routing of Anderlecht.
And his record with the NT isn't that great. 51 goals in 101 apps. Robbie Keane has 65 in 136 for Ireland. Eto'o has 56 in 117 for Cameroon. JD Tomasson has 52 in 112 for Denmark. Mutu(!)- 35 in 77 for Romania. Dennis Law - 30 in 55 for Scotland. Suker - 45 in 69 for Croatia. Koller - 55 in 91 for Czech Republic. Frei - 42 in 86 for Switzerland. All of these, you could say, have been in teams relatively as weak as the Sweden team of which Ibra has been a part.
The point is, good players in weaker national teams, tend to do well regardless of their teammates.
Not even win it, he doesn't have a class campaign where he was one of the top 5 players in the Champions League. it is the biggest stage and he has never really lighten up a particular season of it.
Hmm that is just a lazy myth, read the above posts. His 10 goals in 7 games is a season very few of the top players in history has achieved. Then there is the fact that since his peak he's averaged the same amount of goals/assists in the CL - for a far inferior team - as Messi/Ronaldo if we only remove their one stand out season.
He's carried PSG to going against Barcelona in a very even match and he carried them to comfortably beating Chelsea in the first leg. His influence can't be denied either on his team - without him they lost hard to Chelsea and they've generally played awful every time Cavani(Who is world class himself) tries to replace Zlatan.
I don't think you can say that at all, actually. Some of those teams were miles better than Sweden have been over the past few years.
A bit beside the point anyway. That list alone goes from Keane and Frei at the one end of the spectrum to Dennis Law, a Ballon d' Or winner, at the other end. Zlatan is clearly closer to Law than to Frei - but that has nothing to do with his goal scoring record for Sweden. There are so many dead rubbers, weak and weak-ish teams about in the Euro and WC qualifiers that any half decent striker who happens to be selected frequently can easily bag a nice amount of goals no matter who he happens to play for.
I'm not a stats guy, who did he score them against though ? It was the poorer teams in the group stages, for years he didn't have a goal in the knockout rounds. It isn't a myth he has never set any CL campaign alight for me.
I watched those games again he was solid but didn't steal the show. He didn't score in either of those games too. Inter won when he left, Barca won when he left, there is a trend there. He hasn't delivered in the CL in the big games for the masses and it is a justified opinion for me. PSG got knocked out by Barca and he was non-existent in the return leg same with Chelsea, he 'carried' them to narrow home victories and was anonymous in the return legs. His bad games stick out more than his good ones for me.
Big fan of his talent and ability, but his European resume is poor. Doesn't stop him from being one of the very best of his generation though.
Now you are turning this discussion to career statistics which nobody mentioned before you. We are talking about the peak Zlatan which means post 2012 one since he has scored 23 goals in 24 matches. Brilliant figures for a peak - not many players bar Messi and Ronaldo has kept figures like those for 3 years straight.
that's the thing. I can't even imagine Madrid or Barca being more successful without Ronaldo and Messi but with Ibra it already happened twice.
They really, really weren't. Those teams might have been strong at some point, but not when the mentioned players were playing.
So we should discard his record for Sweden when trying to defend/deny his position as the third best player in the world? Fine, let's look at his club record. Okay, that record is most definitely buttered up by being a part of one of the most expensively assembled teams while simultaneously being in a fairly weak league. Of all the 'big' leagues, Ligue 1 is probably just about 5th, with the Portuguese league coming up close behind and Serie A just in front.
Every argument against Zlatan being at level X since 2012 is countered with "No he was bad before 2012 for Inter, Barcelona, Ajax and Malmö - so he's been bad since 2012". Pointless discussion.
Whatever. I'm not really interested in this "third best player lark". I still say some of the teams you used as an example were clearly much better than Sweden is at present and has been for a few years now.
We disregard Sweden because he is then playing in a team that is "too bad" so his achievements aren't accepted.
We disregard France because he is then playing in a team that is "too good" so his achievements aren't accepted. (I guess you don't rate Messi as he played for one the best team in the world ever which was completely dominant both in the league and CL with and without him.)
Even if we try to discredit him as much as possible he holds one of the greater CL goalscoring records, above the likes of van Basten/Romario/Ronaldo and has since reaching his peak averaged as many goals/assists per game as Ronaldo/Messi(If we remove their one, extraordinary, season).
One; I never disregarded his achievements for Sweden, I simply showed that a strong goalscoring record for a weaker national team isn't the greatest indicator of a player's prowess.
Two; I believe his record for PSG should be taken with a pinch of salt, yes. He is playing for a team which matches City for spending, in a league that has regressed massively and become remarkably weak, as evidenced by Ligue 1's teams' repeated non-showings in Europe in recent years.
Champions league? 42 in 105 - not that great, is it? Benzema will probably overtake that next week, and in far fewer games. In fact, Ibra has one of the poorest goals/game ratios in Europe amongst the top scorers, particularly amongst the strikers. The truth is, he's never really shown up in Europe. And for a 33-year old, who has been playing in Europe since he was about 20 for some top teams, 42 goals isn't anything extraordinary.
And why should Messi's and Ronaldo's "extraordinary" seasons be discarded? You can't move the goalposts to make his records move closer to theirs. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as those two, no other players currently playing should.
How do you figure that?... Romário scored 20 in 32, Van Basten 19 in 27 compared to Ibra's 42 in 105. Even his contemporary Benzema is currently on 41 in 69 games. Hell, Roberto Soldado has 15 in 20 for fck's sake!
Scoring in the CL has just become easier nowadays. Look at the last 4 editions and all the various "records" being broken and the ridiculous scoring rates of almost every forward at a top club. There've been at least two players reaching 10 goals in every edition since 2011/12 (when there were even three!). We've gone from Messi equalling an all-time record by scoring 14 in 2011/12, to Cristiano extending it to 17 last season, to Luiz friggin' Adriano* equalling Cristiano's record for goals in the group stage with 1 matchday to go still!
*who has also become the first (and so far only) player since the CL's inception in 1992 to score back-to-back hat-tricks. On that note, here's some anecdotal evidence. In the period 1992-2000 (92/93 to 99/00) there were 22 hat-tricks scored in the CL. From 2000-2010 (00/01 to 09/10) there were 42 hat-tricks. From 2010-present (10/11 to 14/15) there have already been 33... So that's 22 in the first 8 seasons (2.75 per season), up to 42 in the next decade (4.20 per season), to currently 33 after only 4.5 seasons (almost double at 7.33 per season!).
I can't believe that it is so difficult to discuss a peak which was under a certain time period - without using "career total" as some kind of measurement tool to prove or disprove anything. It is irrelevant whether he scored 1 goal before 2012, if we are discussing how well he did from 12-now.
He is sensational. His highlight reel is about as impressive as you'll see in terms of variation of different types of goals.
IMO, the only reason he isn't talked about as being part of that top echelon of players is that he's 33 now and whilst at first glance you might think its irrelevant, i think people subconsciously assume he's going to rapidly decline at any point and therefore influences their opinion on him NOW, as well as the fact he isnt playing in spain or england where he would have the capability of playing against other top players and grabbing the headlines.
We are discussing his peak ffs. During that 'peak' he's moved to PSG - as I've discussed. During the same 'peak' he hasn't exactly lit up the CL, either.
Are you Swedish? If so, this discussion has obviously run its course.
Good debate, let's do it again soon.
Yes, let's do lunch - my people will contact you (they know where you live).
Seriously, though - the "whatever" referred to the "third best player" lark. And your retort was mainly about that, no? I wasn't making my point in favour of Ibrahimovic - or against him.
If you think Law's Scotland and Koller's Czech Republic were on par with Zlatan's Sweden of late, then fair enough. I would disagree, though. And that was my point. Ibrahimovic has carried Sweden lately, completely so, a team devoid of any other players who are even remotely in the same bracket: That simply was never the case with Koller or Law who either played for genuinely good vintages - or at the very least played with several other top players at any given time.
- Status