Zlatan Ibrahimovic

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esmufc10 said:
I remember you now, you're the eejit who came on after the first leg of the Inter game and spouted a hell of a lot of nonsense.

07/08 Lyon were a good team but not 'quality' and nowhere near the side they were circa 2006. They're a pretty average team at best now.

Bayern and Arsenal aren't quality sides and both lack the qualities of United, Chelsea, and Inter and are someway behind all 3.

Anyway I've sidetracked this thread enough so you can all get back to talking about Ibra.
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You're right. Average teams get to the Champions League semi finals all the time. Average teams knock out Real Madrid, a team featuring several of the worlds top players.

You're worse than Cal, apparently a win is only a win to some of you Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime if you beat Man Utd, Barcelona, Chelsea or whoever Mourinho is managing, every other game is meaningless. That is of course unless it's United winning, in which case it's as impressive as beating Brazil circa 1970 no matter who we're playing.

If Bayern are so shite why did they beat us? Why did they win the German league? Why did they make it to a Champions League final?
 
Oh sorry yes, you said 'quite poor'. Well that's destroyed my argument now eh! :wenger:

You've just spent half a page trying to dig your way out of this silly claim, so it's a bit rich to bleat about being focused on this particular point

Which other point is it you wish me to address then? I hope it's a better effort this time
 
esmufc10 said:
Away and feck. Barcelona created pretty much sod all in the first leg, again they had a lot of possession but they struggled to create much. Chelsea were brilliant defensively just as we were 12 months earlier. It was Chelsea's gameplan to let them have the ball, defend, and hit them on the break.

The second leg, again Barcelona had a lot of the ball but they were doing nothing with it, and all the best chances fell to Chelsea. They should have had four penalties. The Kalou one was perhaps debatable, but there were 3 other stone wall ones.

Chelsea did exactly what they intended for 179 minutes over those two legs, nick a goal and defend the rest of the way, hitting Barca with the pace of Kalou and Anelka, and they did that brilliantly. Then a mis-hit clearance by Essien led to that goal. But there's no doubting to anybody with an inch of common sense that Chelsea did not deserve to lose that tie.
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Nobody is going to create much against what was at that point the best defence in the world, especially when it parks the bus. Nevertheless, they still created enough good chances to take a couple of goals lead to Stamford Bridge. Bojan squandered an easy header from two yards, Eto'o missed a one-on-one against Cech. They were also unfortunate with a Henry penalty appeal being waved away and Eto'o being wrongly flagged offside when one-on-one again. Had the referee done his job at that point in the tie, Chelsea would have been up the shitter come the second leg. Too often when people refer to the 2009 semi, the focus is on the "four penalties" (one certain, two debateable at best, the other nowhere near) Chelsea were denied. Never mind the luck they enjoyed in the first leg nor Abidal's questionable sending off.
 
B Cantona said:
Oh sorry yes, you said 'quite poor'. Well that's destroyed my argument now eh! :wenger:

You've just spent half a page trying to dig your way out of this silly claim, so it's a bit rich to bleat about being focused on this particular point

Which other point is it you wish me to address then? I hope it's a better effort this time
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I haven't spent half a page at all. My main point really was that, against the better sides, Barcelona often come up second best. I was just wondering whether the signing of Villa means Guardiola will change things up a bit, or whether he'll stick with the system he's used in the 2 seasons he's been there. ~And if he does stick with the same system, if he comes up against a quality sides, then I think he'll once again come unstuck. If teams defend well against them and don't run around all over the pitch trying to close them down, then I think they do struggle, look one dimensional and struggle to create many clear cut chances.



Gio said:
Nobody is going to create much against what was at that point the best defence in the world, especially when it parks the bus. Nevertheless, they still created enough good chances to take a couple of goals lead to Stamford Bridge. Bojan squandered an easy header from two yards, Eto'o missed a one-on-one against Cech. They were also unfortunate with a Henry penalty appeal being waved away and Eto'o being wrongly flagged offside when one-on-one again. Had the referee done his job at that point in the tie, Chelsea would have been up the shitter come the second leg. Too often when people refer to the 2009 semi, the focus is on the "four penalties" (one certain, two debateable at best, the other nowhere near) Chelsea were denied. Never mind the luck they enjoyed in the first leg nor Abidal's questionable sending off.
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Myxomatosis said:
You're right. Average teams get to the Champions League semi finals all the time. Average teams knock out Real Madrid, a team featuring several of the worlds top players.
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Did you watch the match between Lyon and Madrid? Madrid dominated for the most part and squandered a lot of opportunities, and Lyon took advantage of that, fair play to them. But if you honestly think they are as good as they were a few years back then you're just kidding yourself I'm afraid. They faced Lyon in the Quarter-Finals, hardly one of Europe's elite. And they were comprehensively beaten by Bayern Munich.

You're worse than Cal, apparently a win is only a win to some of you Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime if you beat Man Utd, Barcelona, Chelsea or whoever Mourinho is managing, every other game is meaningless. That is of course unless it's United winning, in which case it's as impressive as beating Brazil circa 1970 no matter who we're playing.
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Where have I said that? All I've said is that Barcelona tend to struggle when they come up against a quality side. Which is a fair point I think. It's the Barcelona fan boys who seem to get offended at a comment like that. But of course I've seen enough of you in the semi-final thread where you made a fool of yourself when Inter quite comfortably beat Barcelona 3-1 in the first leg.

If Bayern are so shite why did they beat us? Why did they win the German league? Why did they make it to a Champions League final?
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Did I say they were shite? I said they can't be put up there with the likes of Chelsea, Inter and United. Hardly an unfair comment.
 
Gio said:
Nobody is going to create much against what was at that point the best defence in the world, especially when it parks the bus. Nevertheless, they still created enough good chances to take a couple of goals lead to Stamford Bridge. Bojan squandered an easy header from two yards, Eto'o missed a one-on-one against Cech. They were also unfortunate with a Henry penalty appeal being waved away and Eto'o being wrongly flagged offside when one-on-one again. Had the referee done his job at that point in the tie, Chelsea would have been up the shitter come the second leg. Too often when people refer to the 2009 semi, the focus is on the "four penalties" (one certain, two debateable at best, the other nowhere near) Chelsea were denied. Never mind the luck they enjoyed in the first leg nor Abidal's questionable sending off.
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Questionable? I suggest you re-watch the second leg, 3 clear cut penalties, one of those were debatable and that was the first with Kalou. Chelsea were the better side over the two legs, they created the better chances, they looked the more threatening, and Barcelona a lot of the time often looked out of ideas.
 
Laphroaig said:
You really have to either be blind, a pundit or a Chelsea fan to claim three of them were clear cut.
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The Drogba incident, the Pique handball and the Eto'o handball were all penalties in my and most other people's opinions. The Kalou one maybe would have been a bit harsh if given. But Chelsea should have had at least one of those penalties and with Lampard taking you'd have fancied him to score and at 2-0 you struggle to think how Barcelona would have come back.
 
Drogba's wasn't IMO. Maybe in yours, but it certainly isn't clear cut.

The handballs are the debateable ones, but handball decisions are incredibly random anyway, I've sort of given up on understanding how referees decide what is and isn't a penalty.
 
He was pulling at his shirt when he was one on one, how is that not a penalty? You can maybe put forward that his reputation cost him, but that doesn't take away the fact it was a penalty.

If it was United v Barcelona and those four incidents happened and none were given, most if not all your attitudes would be different.
 
esmufc10 said:
He was pulling at his shirt when he was one on one, how is that not a penalty? You can maybe put forward that his reputation cost him, but that doesn't take away the fact it was a penalty.

If it was United v Barcelona and those four incidents happened and none were given, most if not all your attitudes would be different.
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Very true, my opinions always changes regarding those incidents, but atleast one Pen should have been given.



Then again the Ref sent off Abidal for Anelka tripping over himself, I don't think he was bias, I just think he was a very very poor referee. The Pique one is outrageous :lol:
 
His most obvious mistake was Abidal's sending off.

esmufc10 said:
He was pulling at his shirt when he was one on one, how is that not a penalty? You can maybe put forward that his reputation cost him, but that doesn't take away the fact it was a penalty.
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He grabs the shirt a bit, but it doesn't really impede Drogba's movement. His fall is quite clearly self-imposed.
If it was United v Barcelona and those four incidents happened and none were given, most if not all your attitudes would be different.
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I hate it when people pretend to be mind readers, it's arrogant, dishonest and unwarranted. You don't have a clue what my opinion would be in such a scenario, so please don't pretend you do.
 
Boss said:
Very true, my opinions always changes regarding those incidents, but atleast one Pen should have been given.



Then again the Ref sent off Abidal for Anelka tripping over himself, I don't think he was bias, I just think he was a very very poor referee. The Pique one is outrageous :lol:
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1st: I've seen em given, but its no great outrage that it's not. It's the kind of penalty that is often engineered and hence not given. Attacker not really in a dangerous position, turns and choose the route to connect with the defender. What a first touch from malouda, btw.

2nd: No. And even if it were, their is no such thing as injustice being done to Drogba on a football pitch.

3rd: Hard to say from those angles. Looks like a clean tackle. But again, it's drogba.

4th: Handball, no question.

5th: No. Also, Ballack was rightly carded for being a cnut.
 
Also, someone should make a gif of ballack going nuts alongside Joe Cole chasing the bees and Grant going spastic.
 
esmufc10 said:
If it was United v Barcelona and those four incidents happened and none were given, most if not all your attitudes would be different.
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:lol: Well yeah, because you would then be unduly biased in your reading of the situation. Hardly a good argument for calling it accurately.
 
esmufc10 said:
Did you watch the match between Lyon and Madrid? Madrid dominated for the most part and squandered a lot of opportunities, and Lyon took advantage of that, fair play to them. But if you honestly think they are as good as they were a few years back then you're just kidding yourself I'm afraid. They faced Lyon in the Quarter-Finals, hardly one of Europe's elite. And they were comprehensively beaten by Bayern Munich.
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So what exactly makes you part of Europe's elite then? Is it how good your players are on FM? How nice it looks on paper? How many of your players The Sun/Marca claim Real Madrid want to buy this summer? Or is it, you know, GETTING TO THE LAST FOUR OF EUROPE'S BIGGEST CLUB COMPETITION. Tough call that one, I'll let you figure that out.

Where have I said that? All I've said is that Barcelona tend to struggle when they come up against a quality side. Which is a fair point I think. It's the Barcelona fan boys who seem to get offended at a comment like that.
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What actually happened is that two sides in two years (Man Utd don't count, different Barcelona side for the same reason you wouldn't consider Mourinho's Inter and Mancini's Inter together) have pushed Barcelona in Europe. One of those games they won, one they lost. Both were extremely close games. When you consider that most sides who win the trophy scrape by the majority of rounds to win it that's a pretty damn impressive record. Especially when they didn't struggle, at all, against Bayern, Lyon, Man Utd or Arsenal. So to say they struggle against top sides is a complete exagerration, when normally they beat top sides, quite easilly (especially if you include the routine defeats of Real Madrid in La Liga) but yes, they do occassionally not completely dismantle some sides, who deserve accolades as well as Inter and Chelsea are both excellent sides. The Barcelona side on 2008/2009 is clearly one of the best club sides ever assembled, you don't win every trophy you enter at that level without being so.

But of course I've seen enough of you in the semi-final thread where you made a fool of yourself when Inter quite comfortably beat Barcelona 3-1 in the first leg.
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What the hell are you talking about?

Did I say they were shite? I said they can't be put up there with the likes of Chelsea, Inter and United. Hardly an unfair comment.
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Perhaps they can't be put up there with Inter. As Inter beat them quite easilly. I seem to remember they beat us over two legs though and in the first deserved to win by a lot more than a 2-1 scoreline. I don't see Bayern as being a significantly worse side than us by any means.

What exactly did we win last year to put us up with Inter and Chelsea? We came second in the league and went out prematurely in the UCL. Same record as Real Madrid who you've not mentioned either. Why you haven't mentioned Barcelona who won their league and went futher in the UCL is a mystery to me.
 
esmufc10 said:
I haven't spent half a page at all. My main point really was that, against the better sides, Barcelona often come up second best
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That's your main point?

That's probably even more garbage that the point you were making about their away record in Europe

How can they have 'often come up second best' when over the past couple of seasons, they've dominated La Liga twice including getting the better of Madrid, and won the final / reached the semis of the Champions League respectively?

You're spouting utter drivel Elvis. Judging Barca by some ridiculously unachievable mythical yardstick
 
How anyone, claiming to be a football fan, cannot admire Barca is beyond me. Yes, the media praise is way OTT. Some of their players/or the media portrays them as a "mightier then thou" force and they are sore losers (but hey, who likes losing?). But they play football, & they have been the best club side around for the last 2 seasons, just like we were the 1-2 seasons before.

There was a thread the other day in the newbies asking whether United fans are insecure. & I tend to agree with that because I think half the posters who hate Barca onyl hate them because they think it makes United a lesser force. We WILL be top of the pyramid again, mark my words, but I just dont get the Barca hate (or the extreme love in either). It's not like you have to lose any sleep when they win or lose. But they play good football.

End of.
 
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raisa84045 said:
How anyone, claiming to be a football fan, cannot admire Barca is beyond me. Yes, the media praise is way OTT. Some of their players/or the media portrays them as a "mightier then thou" force and they are sore losers (but hey, who likes losing?). But they play football, & they have been the best club side around for the last 2 seasons, just like we were the 1-2 seasons before.

There was a thread the other day in the newbies asking whether United fans are insecure. & I tend to agree with that because I think half the posters who hate Barca onyl hate them because they think it makes United a lesser force. We WILL be top of the pyramid again, mark my words, but I just dont get the Barca hate (or the extreme love in either). It's not like you have to lose any sleep when they win or lose. But they play good football.

End of.
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Inb4 Lailiani calls you a Barca fanboi.
 
B Cantona said:
That's your main point?

That's probably even more garbage that the point you were making about their away record in Europe

How can they have 'often come up second best' when over the past couple of seasons, they've dominated La Liga twice including getting the better of Madrid, and won the final / reached the semis of the Champions League respectively?

You're spouting utter drivel Elvis. Judging Barca by some ridiculously unachievable mythical yardstick
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To be fair that's because 'some' people claim they're on a different planet to the rest. We achieved more BIG trophies in our three seasons of success before this one than they have. Inter achieved this season what they did last season. So it puts things in perspective. It's only when one side overdoes it when the other reacts.

However Elvis does have a point. For the team that is supposedly one of the 'greatest ever' when they've come up against another champion team, they have struggled. Against us they came out second best, against Inter they came out second best and against Chelsea they should have come out second best but for the ref gifting them the tie. While noone is claiming they aren't a very very good team. But that record is nothing better than a lot of teams in the last decade. It's all well and good spanking Bayern last season when they couldn't defend for peanuts. But against the top sides they haven't done anything extra-ordinary.
 
And Eto'o at his best was much better than Ibra. He had one thing that seperates the good players from the top ones and something Ibra never has had, which is the ability to shine in the big moments. It's why Zidane is untouchable in the modern game. It's why Zlatan falls short of the top players let alone the best (Ronaldo, Messi etc).

In last seasons final too, I feared Eto'o more than Messi, because he can do brilliant things quickly and hit you hard. And it's very hard to predict. He beat the best defender in the world (Vidic) and scored the goal that really changed the game. Messi's goal later was just the icing. Eto'o's unpredictability makes him very hard to play against in the bigger games. That combination of skill and heart is what he has/ had in plenty.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
To be fair that's because 'some' people claim they're on a different planet to the rest. We achieved more BIG trophies in our three seasons of success before this one than they have. Inter achieved this season what they did last season. So it puts things in perspective. It's only when one side overdoes it when the other reacts.

However Elvis does have a point. For the team that is supposedly one of the 'greatest ever' when they've come up against another champion team, they have struggled. Against us they came out second best, against Inter they came out second best and against Chelsea they should have come out second best but for the ref gifting them the tie. While noone is claiming they aren't a very very good team. But that record is nothing better than a lot of teams in the last decade. It's all well and good spanking Bayern last season when they couldn't defend for peanuts. But against the top sides they haven't done anything extra-ordinary.
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Did you forget Rome?
 
Myxomatosis said:
Did you forget Rome?
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Feck, I had put 'barring last seasons final' somewhere there only to remove it.

But yeah, I think that's the one occasion they beat another champion team in these last few years. It's not a big critcism really. My guess is our record is similar. Just saying they're just one of us, rather than anything more.
 
Myxomatosis said:
So what exactly makes you part of Europe's elite then? Is it how good your players are on FM? How nice it looks on paper? How many of your players The Sun/Marca claim Real Madrid want to buy this summer? Or is it, you know, GETTING TO THE LAST FOUR OF EUROPE'S BIGGEST CLUB COMPETITION. Tough call that one, I'll let you figure that out.
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Leeds once got to the last four of Europe's elite club competition. Monaco and Porto got to a final. PSV got to a semi in 2005. Leverkusen got to a final in 2002. Would you class these as Europe's 'elite'? No, you wouldn't. Lyon are hardly one of Europe's best teams and claiming otherwise is a bit silly. Yes they beat Madrid, they deserve credit, but other teams have beaten Madrid this season, other lesser teams, should they be classed as Elite European clubs? They faced a poor Bordeux side in the Quarter-Finals also, hardly the most difficult tie in the world.


What actually happened is that two sides in two years (Man Utd don't count, different Barcelona side for the same reason you wouldn't consider Mourinho's Inter and Mancini's Inter together) have pushed Barcelona in Europe. One of those games they won, one they lost. Both were extremely close games. When you consider that most sides who win the trophy scrape by the majority of rounds to win it that's a pretty damn impressive record. Especially when they didn't struggle, at all, against Bayern, Lyon, Man Utd or Arsenal. So to say they struggle against top sides is a complete exagerration, when normally they beat top sides, quite easilly (especially if you include the routine defeats of Real Madrid in La Liga) but yes, they do occassionally not completely dismantle some sides, who deserve accolades as well as Inter and Chelsea are both excellent sides. The Barcelona side on 2008/2009 is clearly one of the best club sides ever assembled, you don't win every trophy you enter at that level without being so.
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They were second best in their semi in 2008, second best in their semi in 2009, second best in their semi in 2010. They've come up second best in both legs in those 3 games. That's 6 matches where they have been contained, and where they've struggled to create chances, despite having the lionshare of possession, and where frankly they have looked out of ideas. I'm not trying to diminish their achievements in any way, all I am saying is that they are not as good as people make them out to be, and they are not infallible. And I was just making a point that I think Guardiola may try and change things considering how those 3 semi finals went. He knows he got lucky in 2009. In 2010 they were well and truly beaten. The media after the 4-1 defeat of an injury-ravaged Arsenal side (We beat them 3-1 at the Emirates when they were near full strength, this season and last) was way overboard and rather embarassing. They're a great team this Barcelona side and play some superb football, but they have a long way to go if they're going to go down as 'the best club side ever'.

Next season will be an interesting season, particularly now Mourinho is at Madrid. You'd expect him, with the financial backing he will have, to really push Barca all the way again this year, and it'll be interesting to see how Barcelona fare when they come up against a quality side in the Champions League, no doubt in the latter stages.


Perhaps they can't be put up there with Inter. As Inter beat them quite easilly. I seem to remember they beat us over two legs though and in the first deserved to win by a lot more than a 2-1 scoreline. I don't see Bayern as being a significantly worse side than us by any means.
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Despite us being utterly incompetent in that game and doing our best to throw it, their 2 goals came from 2 big errors from two of our more experienced players - that's very rare. And despite all their possession and them being in our final third a lot, they didn't actually create that much. All the better chances fell for us and we looked more dangerous when we managed to get at them.

Bayern have had a good run this year, but they've also had a hell of a lot of luck, and some extremely fortunate refereeing decisions. Fiorentina springs to mind.

What exactly did we win last year to put us up with Inter and Chelsea? We came second in the league and went out prematurely in the UCL. Same record as Real Madrid who you've not mentioned either. Why you haven't mentioned Barcelona who won their league and went futher in the UCL is a mystery to me.
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Barcelona are obviously up there. We've won 3 of the last 4 league titles, reached 2 Champions League finals, winning one. We've also retained the Carling Cup, and despite losing 2 of our key players in Ronaldo and Tevez, and replacing them with Valencia and Owen, we finished just 1 point behind Chelsea, this despite them beating us twice. That's a 12 point swing just there. We'll come back and win the league next year.
 
B Cantona said:
That's your main point?

That's probably even more garbage that the point you were making about their away record in Europe

How can they have 'often come up second best' when over the past couple of seasons, they've dominated La Liga twice including getting the better of Madrid, and won the final / reached the semis of the Champions League respectively?

You're spouting utter drivel Elvis. Judging Barca by some ridiculously unachievable mythical yardstick
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I wasn't talking about La Liga, I'm talking about the Champions League. The La Liga is a shite league at the minute because nobody can get close to Barcelona and Madrid, nor match their spending power. The individual TV rights deal doesn't help matters at all, and the gap between those two and the rest will only get bigger.

They were outclassed in 2008, 2009 and 2010 at the semi-final stage against quality opposition. It's all well and good beating the lesser teams of Europe, but against the better teams they have struggled, and they haven't done anything of note. Unless of course you can point me to other games. I'll give you the Final in 2009, but we lacked a key player in Fletcher and I do think he would have made a hell of a difference.
 
esmufc10 said:
Questionable? I suggest you re-watch the second leg, 3 clear cut penalties, one of those were debatable and that was the first with Kalou. Chelsea were the better side over the two legs, they created the better chances, they looked the more threatening, and Barcelona a lot of the time often looked out of ideas.
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I suggest you rewatch the first leg. Over the two legs, there are three big decisions which were incorrectly called and went in Chelsea's favour - Eto'o's offside call, Henry's penalty claim and Abidal's red card.

esmufc10 said:
In 2010 they were well and truly beaten.
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So you are saying Inter comfortably cruised into the final with a couple of goals to spare? Or did they edge it by the finest of margins owing partly to luck from the chalked off Bojan goal and offside Milito goal?
 
Gio said:
I suggest you rewatch the first leg. Over the two legs, there are three big decisions which were incorrectly called and went in Chelsea's favour - Eto'o's offside call, Henry's penalty claim and Abidal's red card.
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Chelsea had a couple of offsides too, you get incorrectly called offsides in a lot of games to be honest. I can't remember the penalty appeal the the red card was indeed harsh. That came after the penalty appeals of Chelsea though (Well 3 of them), so I don't really know what your point is.

So you are saying Inter comfortably cruised into the final with a couple of goals to spare? Or did they edge it by the finest of margins owing partly to luck from the chalked off Bojan goal and offside Milito goal?
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Rightly chalked off due to handball. What about the Milito offside early in the first half of the first leg? What about Busquets' theatrics getting Motta sent off? What about Alves' constant diving? It's questionable whether Pique was offisde for his goal also.

They were comfortable over the two legs, yes. The last 4 or 5 minutes of the second leg were very nervy due to the goal, but other than that they defended superbly well and Barca created very little.
 
Anyone else think Elvis is a closet Chelsea fan? Loves Mourinho and Mourinho's Chelsea, thinks Chelsea should've had at least 3 penalties...the signs all point in one direction.
 
Barca fire Ibrahimovic warning

Barca fire Ibrahimovic warning

Barcelona warned Zlatan Ibrahimovic's agent that further criticisms of the club could see them seeking an exit for the Swedish striker.

The Spanish champions were reacting to quotes from an interview Mino Raiola gave when he said Barca coach Pep Guardiola "would need to go to a mental hospital," if he was considering off-loading Ibrahimovic for next season.
"If Barca need money why do they always talk about Ibrahimovic and not Lionel Messi or Pedro?" Raiola was quoted as having said on the Barca website.

Barca director Joan Oliver jumped to the defence of Guardiola.
"We didn't like Mino Raiola's comments, above all the tone he used. The reference to Guardiola was in bad taste," Oliver said. "The club doesn't need the money. We don't want to sell.
"If things become more complicated though, there will be no alternative (but to seek an exit)."
Ibrahimovic failed to meet expectations in his first season with Barca, and finished the campaign being used as a substitute behind youngster Bojan Krkic.
The arrival of Spain striker David Villa from Valencia for 40 million euros last week added to speculation in the media that he could be surplus to requirements, even though the club have said he is not for sale.
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La Liga - Barca fire Ibrahimovic warning - Yahoo! Eurosport
 
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