Zinedine Zidane - 3 time CL winning manager without a job

largelyworried said:
You can argue anything if you really try. Doesn't mean it'll stand up to scrutiny.
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Well if you want to look at the facts, major trophies since Zidane has started Coaching:

Zidane:
3 UCL 2 Leagues

Pep:
3 Leagues

Tuchel:
1 UCL 2 Leagues

Klopp:
1 UCL 1 League

Pretty sure that stands up to scrutiny. Take into account Zidane has had 2 seasons off in that time and Tuchel won his 2 leagues in the French league. I'm struggling to see how the other coaches styles are more dominant as claimed.
 
Don't win against Atalanta and a loss to Liverpool and Zidane is coming in. The club wouldn't ignore someone of his reputation especially with the team we have now
 
sullydnl said:
I didn't say he wasn't tactically savvy in the bit you bolded, just that he wasn't system-orientated. Something the extensive coverage of his time at Madrid made pretty clear.

There's a quote from a piece in the Independent today regarding Sancho:



Whether true in Sancho's case or not, that idea of a regime focused on individuals rather than the technical details of how a system functions is what I'm personally tired of percieving when I watch United under Solskjaer. The seeming lack of emphasis on pre-prepared, thoroughly coached patterns of play and a seeming reliance on individuals producing improvised moments of inspiration is something that has frustrated me throughout Solskjaer's reign.

I don't want to make it sound like I'm comparing Zidane to Ole (because that would be both reductive and stupid) but Zidane's Madrid (succesful though they were) didn't play in a way that suggests he would bring the sort of dramatic shift I want to see in that regard. New and special or not, I saw a massive difference between Zidane's Madrid and those more Pep-influenced sides in terms of how pre-prepared and structured their general play was and pretty much none of the coverage of Zidane's regime at Madrid has provided any evidence to suggest what I saw was incorrect, that actually that Madrid was every bit as structured and thoroughly coached in the details of how to play as those system-based sides. In terms of praise he received for being tactically savvy, it was generally in terms of how adaptable his tactics were, which I'm far less interested in.

If you want to describe Pep's tactics as being just as simple as Zidane's and his system being one of the most basic, that's fine by me. But whatever the difference is that makes Pep (and other managers') attacking play seem so much more pre-prepared and heavily coached than Zidane's, that's what I want.

Perhaps it's also what's reflected in @carvajal's post above when he mentions a "cloudy at times" football style and not correcting players like Pogba on-field. The last thing I want is for our new manager's style of football to be "cloudy", at any point.
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This is an excellent post, and pretty well sets out why I don't find Zidane particularly alluring. We missed the boat with the likes of Pep, Klopp, Nagelsmann, and even the likes of Marco Rose, is Ten Hag on their level? It's a risk, of course. But then so too is Zidane. This United team is in desperate need of a system and an identity. Zidane might well be the most decorated, most adaptable manager available to us, but I want a manager with a crystalised plan of how to get United playing consistently progressive football.
 
the_cliff said:
Well if you want to look at the facts, major trophies since Zidane has started Coaching:

Zidane:
3 UCL 2 Leagues

Pep:
3 Leagues

Tuchel:
1 UCL 2 Leagues

Klopp:
1 UCL 1 League

Pretty sure that stands up to scrutiny. Take into account Zidane has had 2 seasons off in that time and Tuchel won his 2 leagues in the French league. I'm struggling to see how the other coaches styles are more dominant as claimed.
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Picking three coaches and comparing their trophy tally over a given period to Zidane's doesn't tell you anything about whether top level football and top level football coaches generally are trending towards the ideas that Marca article describes over Zidane's less structured and more individual-focused approach.

If you want to argue that focusing on "repeated patterns of play, group pressing, or novel ways of playing out from the back" is becoming less and less a feature of top level football coaching then by all means, try making that argument.
 
the_cliff said:
Well if you want to look at the facts, major trophies since Zidane has started Coaching:

Zidane:
3 UCL 2 Leagues

Pep:
3 Leagues

Tuchel:
1 UCL 2 Leagues

Klopp:
1 UCL 1 League

Pretty sure that stands up to scrutiny. Take into account Zidane has had 2 seasons off in that time and Tuchel won his 2 leagues in the French league. I'm struggling to see how the other coaches styles are more dominant as claimed.
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Pep, Tuchel and Klopp are not the only examples. Flick, Nagelsman, Poch, Ten Haag, Rose and many others are all following similar tactical principles. In the next 5 years, these managers and their peers will get most of the jobs at the big clubs, set the tactical direction of football as a whole and hog the trophies being won. Zidane will not.
 
Summit said:
I'm not coming with any argument as I previously pointed out "for some reason"

I can't put my finger on it, just gut feeling. I know he ticks boxes of being successful ect but just don't think he'd be a good fit for us
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So who's your pick? Or rather keep Ole?
 
largelyworried said:
Pep, Tuchel and Klopp are not the only examples. Flick, Nagelsman, Poch, Ten Haag, Rose and many others are all following similar tactical principles. In the next 5 years, these managers and their peers will get most of the jobs at the big clubs, set the tactical direction of football as a whole and hog the trophies being won. Zidane will not.
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Patterns of play is just a secular religion at this point.
 
largelyworried said:
Pep, Tuchel and Klopp are not the only examples. Flick, Nagelsman, Poch, Ten Haag, Rose and many others are all following similar tactical principles. In the next 5 years, these managers and their peers will get most of the jobs at the big clubs, set the tactical direction of football as a whole and hog the trophies being won. Zidane will not.
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What makes you think that Pochettino who has managed for a longer period of time, has won next to nothing, has a not particularly progressive style and is the same age as Zidane will be around but Zidane won't? What makes you think that Rose won't follow Favre and Sarri or that Nagelsmann won't follow Kovac? ten Hag is doing well with a club that has twice the budget of the second club in Ererdivisie what makes you think that he won't be like Bosz?

I'm genuinely amazed by the fact that people so easily put their faith in managers that have done relatively little when it comes to the highest level while categorically rejecting a manager that has had more success than those managers while being the same age and being a newer manager. Out of all the managers that you mentioned Zidane is the one with the least experience, in theory he is the one that should have the more room for growth, it may not workout for him but people have a very strange way to judge him.
 
I get the caution over Zidane, there is a feeling that he was the right man at the right time for that star studded but also very importantly experienced Madrid team.

If we did go for a very quick change, I would much rather go for Conte because I think this team needs the structure and organisation that he would bring though I still have my doubts that his system is particularly ‘Man United’.

Besides, I’m pretty sure Zidane has no interest in coming to the Premier League, I think that’s been well documented now.
 
Strelok said:
Being in the top 4 of the PL doesn't mean we don't have a good squad. Especially considering that 3 are Chelsea, City and Liverpool.

Now try Europe?
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Alright, but its not good enough to win things. We can't compete in the PL or CL. Yes there are lots of teams that are in a bad position right now, in Spain and Italy, but they are not strong at the moment, they are not dissimilar to us. The better way of looking at it is how far we are from teams around our level or below us, and we are very similar to a lot of teams realistically.
 
Escobar said:
So who's your pick? Or rather keep Ole?
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Wouldn't keep ole. I'd rather have Rodgers over ole tbh. As for my pick, I really don't know. I think it doesn't really matter cause the best managers are taken. Would love us to try for ten hag over Zidane tbh.
 
Would obviously take. Whether the Glazers/hierachry want to pay exponentially more on a manager who will likely have his own ideas is anyone's guess (mine is "no").

Has to come to a point where we put sentimentality aside and say "this is simply not working". Also with Newcastle sniffing around for a major managerial upgrade we need competitive coaching. We're ultimately a team coached by amateurs - Carrick, Fletcher, McKenna are all basically in their first ever premium coaching job. We're going to have to sack them all.
 
JPRouve said:
What makes you think that Pochettino who has managed for a longer period of time, has won next to nothing, has a not particularly progressive style and is the same age as Zidane will be around but Zidane won't? What makes you think that Rose won't follow Favre and Sarri or that Nagelsmann won't follow Kovac? ten Hag is doing well with a club that has twice the budget of the second club in Ererdivisie what makes you think that he won't be like Bosz?

I'm genuinely amazed by the fact that people so easily put their faith in managers that have done relatively little when it comes to the highest level while categorically rejecting a manager that has had more success than those managers while being the same age and being a newer manager. Out of all the managers that you mentioned Zidane is the one with the least experience, in theory he is the one that should have the more room for growth, it may not workout for him but people have a very strange way to judge him.
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Who says I'm rejecting Zidane?
 
largelyworried said:
Who says I'm rejecting Zidane?
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Yourself, unless I misread your post?

largelyworried said:
Pep, Tuchel and Klopp are not the only examples. Flick, Nagelsman, Poch, Ten Haag, Rose and many others are all following similar tactical principles. In the next 5 years, these managers and their peers will get most of the jobs at the big clubs, set the tactical direction of football as a whole and hog the trophies being won. Zidane will not.
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I don't see anything in this thread to suggest he has changed his mind since those comments in 2018 so isn't discussion around Zidane rather pointless? The message was pretty emphatically that he did not care for the style of football played in the Premier League and would not have any interest in taking any Premier League job, not just ours. If you factor in that his close mates in the media have been open about his lack of interest in club management in general and his blatant campaigning for the France national team job it looks a total non starter.

I don't think he would be the answer if available anyway. Most of the criticism aimed at Ole is that he is a decent leader in terms of bringing the group together and injecting a little bit of passion but he is sorely lacking in terms of tactics and coaching and honestly Zidane is not a lot different. At Real Zidane had an incredible squad of players at their peak during the CL years and once he had to rebuild that squad is when he was found wanting as he lacked tactical acumen and judging by his 300m spending spree during that summer when he signed the likes of Jovic he cannot be trusted with a transfer budget.

If we move on from Ole and I am heavily leaning in that direction now, we need someone who is on the rise and not a retread and someone who demonstrates a clear footballing philosophy and an ability to be tactically flexible. Ten Hag is the best available candidate but Rose would certainly fit the bill too.
 
largelyworried said:
Yes you've misread it. A single manager cannot take more jobs than a group of managers.
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But then what was your point? Because what you just wrote works for all of them and they don't even have the same tactical philosophies. So I don't really get why you excluded Zidane.

And Flick is a national team manager, why would he be in a list of club managers?
 
People still peddle this nonsense that he's tactically inept when he's dismantled the tactically apt coaches over and over again? Wow, some people catch on very slowly. Tactical flexibility shows more sense and ability than tactical dogma like some of those managers people get too excited about who always get bounced out when it matters most.
 
JPRouve said:
But then what was your point? Because what you just wrote works for all of them and they don't even have the same tactical philosophies. So I don't really get why you excluded Zidane.
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The point is that most of the up and coming managers in European football are systems type managers - all with their own spin but very influenced by Pep and Klopp - high aggressive press, looking to dominate the ball, tactically fluid, super hard workers, etc. All that we see in Liverpool and City now. These managers will be the dominant force in football in the next 5 years or more. Zidane is an outlier, being more in the mould of Ancelotti, or arguably a Rolls Royce version of Ole.

If we go with Zidane, we're going against the tide. That means the next manager we go for after Zidane would probably result in a change in style, since looking around European football right now, there are more and more managers following in Pep and Klopp's footsteps.

For me, that's not a dealbreaker, but its definitely a factor. Our jumping from style to style, from Moyes to LVG to Jose to Ole has been a major reason why we've struggled to get any continuity. Finding a steady stream of managers that won't need a rebuild every time is definitely desirable.

But style of management isn't the only factor. Ability matters, for one thing. Hassenhutel, for example, is a systems manager, but he sure ain't getting the job. Availability too. Klopp is good enough, but we aint getting him either. So among the realistic pool of managers we could choose for multiple reasons, Zidane is certainly in there. But he comes with the downside that he probably makes it harder to move to the smooth, continous DOF driven model that many fans have craved.
 
For those who watched Zidane's Real team where they won the UCL, i would like to know, if he takes charge tomorrow against Atalanta, what would his First XI be and what are his tactics?

Thank you!
 
largelyworried said:
The point is that most of the up and coming managers in European football are systems type managers - all with their own spin but very influenced by Pep and Klopp - high aggressive press, looking to dominate the ball, tactically fluid, super hard workers, etc. All that we see in Liverpool and City now. These managers will be the dominant force in football in the next 5 years or more. Zidane is an outlier, being more in the mould of Ancelotti, or arguably a Rolls Royce version of Ole.

If we go with Zidane, we're going against the tide. That means the next manager we go for after Zidane would probably result in a change in style, since looking around European football right now, there are more and more managers following in Pep and Klopp's footsteps.

For me, that's not a dealbreaker, but its definitely a factor. Our jumping from style to style, from Moyes to LVG to Jose to Ole has been a major reason why we've struggled to get any continuity. Finding a steady stream of managers that won't need a rebuild every time is definitely desirable.

But style of management isn't the only factor. Ability matters, for one thing. Hassenhutel, for example, is a systems manager, but he sure ain't getting the job. Availability too. Klopp is good enough, but we aint getting him either. So among the realistic pool of managers we could choose for multiple reasons, Zidane is certainly in there. But he comes with the downside that he probably makes it harder to move to the smooth, continous DOF driven model that many fans have craved.
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Yes, I get your point but as stated in my previous post this is no guarantee of success. You seem to keep coming to the conclusion that these system type managers will guarantee success, I just pointed out that Zidane has won more than all of them since becoming a manager. There are cons for system type managers as well. Lets say we get in a Ten Haag or a Poch and he implements a system of play and in 3 years we look no closer to winning trophies but we have a clear system of play, when do we pull the plug ? As you stated in your own post they are moulded after Pep and Klopp but all have their own spin, so you're still left with the problem that if you bring in another one of those system type managers after one has been let go he may not like certain players and will need replacements just like a Zidane would.

Again you're mentioning they will be the dominant force, dominant in what way ? dominant in the sense that most managers will now have that style ? or dominant in terms of success ?
 
the_cliff said:
Yes, I get your point but as stated in my previous post this is no guarantee of success. You seem to keep coming to the conclusion that these system type managers will guarantee success, I just pointed out that Zidane has won more than all of them since becoming a manager. There are cons for system type managers as well. Lets say we get in a Ten Haag or a Poch and he implements a system of play and in 3 years we look no closer to winning trophies but we have a clear system of play, when do we pull the plug ? As you stated in your own post they are moulded after Pep and Klopp but all have their own spin, so you're still left with the problem that if you bring in another one of those system type managers after one has been let go he may not like certain players and will need replacements just like a Zidane would.

Again you're mentioning they will be the dominant force, dominant in what way ? dominant in the sense that most managers will now have that style ? or dominant in terms of success ?
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Dominant in that there will be more managers like that, collectively they will take more of the big jobs, therefore they will win more trophies, and any club that takes that route will have more similar managers to choose from.
 
He will do good for Manchester United in the short term to bring the best of the players already in the team but he won't implement a modern progresive type of football if you want someone like Klopp or Guardiola. It isn't a bad thing as he's mainly focused on winning and players would respect him given his reputation as a player and success as a manager. Even if things don't go well he will step aside himself, so no need to worry there as one of the biggest problems with Manchester United is how they stick for so long with managers that clearly aren't working, it has happened with every single manager since SAF but Zidane at least has some integrity in that regard, he's a true leader and winner.
 
Hammondo said:
I am talking about using an approach which has been proven to work for a long time, over many teams, with different managers. The problem is that we compared to other clubs, change our managers with completely different philosophies, giving them a short period of time and thus needing to change the type of player we need with every manager. Unlike Chelsea, Bayern, Barce, Real, Dortmund, (and for a much shorter period of time) City, who have their direction already chosen and pick a manager who can continue it. One of the main reasons why clubs pick previous players (for better or for worse), is to continue that approach and develop on it. There is a very good chance Xavi is going to manage Barcelona at some point, and it is because hes continuing what Pep did, who is someone who continued what Cruyff brought.

There is no amount of pragmatic and tactically flexibility that can make this current team a success, it is wasted money either way. What is worse is that its come at a time when there are 3 very good teams in the PL. If the PL had weaker competition we might even win, but its not gonna happen with this lineup now.
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I think it's a bit too far fetched to think that all the other clubs build for a continuous style of play and hire managers based on that. Take Chelsea, for example - Lampard was building an attacking team albeit one with defensive issues and Tuchel came in soon after and made them European Champions playing defensive football. If Klopp leaves today a possession or defensive type of manager won't have issues with implementing their style to the extent of demanding 8 or 9 players. Same with City.

Problem with United is in the scouting and recruitment. What style would suit Fred, AWB or McTominay because even in an ultra defensive set up you still need technique and a good first touch. We didn't look at the basics of what a professional footballer should be able to do before spending millions on players. That's why it looks like we'd need wholesale changes to bring in a systems based coach but the reality is that even Mourinho would demand more on the ball from Wan Bissaka or Fred.
 
AneRu said:
I think it's a bit too far fetched to think that all the other clubs build for a continuous style of play and hire managers based on that. Take Chelsea, for example - Lampard was building an attacking team albeit one with defensive issues and Tuchel came in soon after and made them European Champions playing defensive football. If Klopp leaves today a possession or defensive type of manager won't have issues with implementing their style to the extent of demanding 8 or 9 players. Same with City.

Problem with United is in the scouting and recruitment. What style would suit Fred, AWB or McTominay because even in an ultra defensive set up you still need technique and a good first touch. We didn't look at the basics of what a professional footballer should be able to do before spending millions on players. That's why it looks like we'd need wholesale changes to bring in a systems based coach but the reality is that even Mourinho would demand more on the ball from Wan Bissaka or Fred.
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I think AWB would suit Chelsea really well, or maybe Liverpool. Obviously not city as he's not technically good enough, but defensively he's really good for a fullback.

Fred and mctominay are klopp type players, not saying they are good enough, but that's the style they fit into.
 
the_cliff said:
Well if you want to look at the facts, major trophies since Zidane has started Coaching:

Zidane:
3 UCL 2 Leagues

Pep:
3 Leagues

Tuchel:
1 UCL 2 Leagues

Klopp:
1 UCL 1 League

Pretty sure that stands up to scrutiny. Take into account Zidane has had 2 seasons off in that time and Tuchel won his 2 leagues in the French league. I'm struggling to see how the other coaches styles are more dominant as claimed.
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Zidane doesn’t speak the language does he? He would prob manage from a hotel as well. He galvanised Madrid for sure but he’s not a coach is he. He’s not going to be drilling this team tactically. They’d basically be left to the same plan they are now only asked to be better. Basically after one month of him you’d know how it was gonna go so signing him on a 3 year deal could be an absolute disaster.
 
siw2007 said:
I get the caution over Zidane, there is a feeling that he was the right man at the right time for that star studded but also very importantly experienced Madrid team.

If we did go for a very quick change, I would much rather go for Conte because I think this team needs the structure and organisation that he would bring though I still have my doubts that his system is particularly ‘Man United’.

Besides, I’m pretty sure Zidane has no interest in coming to the Premier League, I think that’s been well documented now.
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I think we underestimate the effect of gravitas on group dynamics, remember it has worked with Ole for two and half years - players like Rashford and McTominay would run through brickwalls for him and that dragged the entire team no matter how basic the tactics were. Same thing, but on a greater extent would happen with Zidane as all players will be in awe of the player he was and what he achieved as a manager.

Where it hasn't worked for Ole is that he didn't have the self awareness to find someone to come in as assistant to cover or mitigate his own shortcomings. His coaching appointments have been of highly rated young upcoming coaches who whilst very good could struggle to get their points across to top athletes due to inexperience.

If Ole had a Queroz like figure it would have taken longer to expose his failings. Now opponents know that if you close off gaps for the counter you are safe and if you place the back six we don't have the skill, courage or organization to play through a high press.

I think this where the difference would be, Zidane is a bona fide winner and he'd be smart enough not to surround himself with mates and yes men. Even Guardiola in his first stint, he had Enrique, Tito Villanova as assistants, the highly rated Ten Hagen worked for him at Bayern and we can also add Arteta. The point is, as good as he is he always had a strong backroom. Zidane would have one too.
 
Hammondo said:
I think AWB would suit Chelsea really well, or maybe Liverpool. Obviously not city as he's not technically good enough, but defensively he's really good for a fullback.

Fred and mctominay are klopp type players, not saying they are good enough, but that's the style they fit into.
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I think you are mistaking work rate for lack of technique, Milner is a hard worker but he is also goodish with the ball, he won't be hitting forty yards passes but you'd find that his technique on things like first touch and ball control is solid.

AWB is a good tackler but his positioning and tracking is all over the place. Those are basic things in a defender that ensure you don't have to rely much on tackling. Some of our players lack that basic technique for the level we aspire to play at hence we fall apart under the press.
 
Hammondo said:
I think AWB would suit Chelsea really well, or maybe Liverpool. Obviously not city as he's not technically good enough, but defensively he's really good for a fullback.

Fred and mctominay are klopp type players, not saying they are good enough, but that's the style they fit into.
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What makes you think chelsea want such a limited fullback offensively and to some degree defensively as AWB is? Are you trying to say he is not good enough for Man Utd, but will be good enough for Chelsea, cuz that doesn't make any sense. Chelsea are not looking to downgrade on their FB or WB options.
 
AneRu said:
I think you are mistaking work rate for lack of technique, Milner is a hard worker but he is also goodish with the ball, he won't be hitting forty yards passes but you'd find that his technique on things like first touch and ball control is solid.

AWB is a good tackler but his positioning and tracking is all over the place. Those are basic things in a defender that ensure you don't have to rely much on tackling. Some of our players lack that basic technique for the level we aspire to play at hence we fall apart under the press.
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In the past I would agree with you, but this season his positioning has been far better. My belief is that it's been his focus/awareness that's let him down more than understanding, and he's improved that.
 
AneRu said:
Even Guardiola in his first stint, he had Enrique, Tito Villanova as assistants, the highly rated Ten Hagen worked for him at Bayern
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ten Hag did not work for Guardiola. He was the head coach of Bayern's second team and fully responsible for that. You can be sure that Guardiola and ten Hag talked about the style of play they want to synchronise the teams, but both were responsible for their own team.

imanshole said:
What makes you think chelsea want such a limited fullback offensively and to some degree defensively as AWB is?
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I guess AWB could fulfill a role as an RCB in Chelsea's current system, surely not as the RWB. But he would surely not be a starter in that position either.
 
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