Tiers of a clownXabi Alonso is horrendously overrated
- Thread starter ICIP
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Tiers of a clownAlonso was a bit inconsistent till the 08-09 season. Carrick's form was better for a significant period time around 06-08.
And yes both are better players than Barry
And yes both are better players than Barry
Funny and accurate - there's no discussion to be had here. Alonso didn't really excel in his early years at Liverpool, but he certainly did in his later years. Going from finishing second with him, to finishing seventh (I think) without him wasn't all down to his absence, but Christ it didn't help.
My opinion of Barry hasn't changed since his Villa days:
Alonso may have been inferior to Carrick from 06 to 08. In all honesty I only started closely following football (enough to have a sufficiently informed opinion at least) around the beginning of 2007.
But in the last five years and at the moment there is absolutely no debate. Alonso is a significantly superior player to Carrick. Barry, who is imo judged a tad harshly since his move to City, has never been as good as Carrick.
But in the last five years and at the moment there is absolutely no debate. Alonso is a significantly superior player to Carrick. Barry, who is imo judged a tad harshly since his move to City, has never been as good as Carrick.
Alonso in the premier league was very good for his first two seasons or so, outstanding in his final season, and hit or miss in the seasons before that.
His consistency had dropped off when Liverpool were thinking of selling him. That kick up the arse made him put in his best ever season, then he left for Madrid while playing fantastically and has kept up a very high standard since then.
Better than Gareth Barry in all but 2/3 seasons by a huge margin
In those 2/3 seasons he was better too, by a far lesser margin, just inconsistent and tended to be like what Carrick can be.......great when the goings good and anonymous when the games are tough.
So swapping out for Barry might have meant losing 90% performance in easy games 60% in tough ones, for 70%/70% with Barry.
His consistency had dropped off when Liverpool were thinking of selling him. That kick up the arse made him put in his best ever season, then he left for Madrid while playing fantastically and has kept up a very high standard since then.
Better than Gareth Barry in all but 2/3 seasons by a huge margin
In those 2/3 seasons he was better too, by a far lesser margin, just inconsistent and tended to be like what Carrick can be.......great when the goings good and anonymous when the games are tough.
So swapping out for Barry might have meant losing 90% performance in easy games 60% in tough ones, for 70%/70% with Barry.
To be fair, after the first season, Alonso had a very quiet next couple of seasons, while Carrick on our team had better seasons.
While GazBaz wasn't all that a player, Alonso wasn't performing week in week out till Benitez tried the Barry stuff. However, the following year, Alonso played a blinder of a season. It's funny how revisionism and our need for poking fun of Benitez can result in subtle change of facts.
While GazBaz wasn't all that a player, Alonso wasn't performing week in week out till Benitez tried the Barry stuff. However, the following year, Alonso played a blinder of a season. It's funny how revisionism and our need for poking fun of Benitez can result in subtle change of facts.
Peter is correct, that tier whatever is bollocks.
Getting back to the original statment -
Who the fu*k let this clown out of the nursery?
I cant argue that Alonso is a little overrated but to say he is less suited to the premiership than Barry....fu*king Barry
Mods - please do a RAWK and lock the hell out of this thread, it's embarrassing.
Who the fu*k let this clown out of the nursery?
I cant argue that Alonso is a little overrated but to say he is less suited to the premiership than Barry....fu*king Barry
Mods - please do a RAWK and lock the hell out of this thread, it's embarrassing.
There is a massive difference between lumping the ball into the box for Peter Crouch, and pinpoint passes from a deep lying midfield position to the wings.
Barry is criminally under rated. But that's a different thread again.
The issue is how you see Alonso. Personally I see him as a luxury player rather than a grafter. Because he sits fairly deep people assume he's defensively solid. Because he doesn't press excessively people assume he reads the game well.
Personally I don't see it. I think he's similar to players like Silva in that you put them in the side inspite of their defensive fragility. That's why he needed to be paired with a destroyer like Mascherano beside him.
Imo players like that are more dangerous further up the pitch. Say Liverpool had Barry they might have been able to bring in a more creative player than Kuyt. That's the point I'm making. Alonso comes at the expense of other attacking players so should be compared to the likes of Silva, Ozil etc rather than Barry and Carrick.
The issue is how you see Alonso. Personally I see him as a luxury player rather than a grafter. Because he sits fairly deep people assume he's defensively solid. Because he doesn't press excessively people assume he reads the game well.
Personally I don't see it. I think he's similar to players like Silva in that you put them in the side inspite of their defensive fragility. That's why he needed to be paired with a destroyer like Mascherano beside him.
Imo players like that are more dangerous further up the pitch. Say Liverpool had Barry they might have been able to bring in a more creative player than Kuyt. That's the point I'm making. Alonso comes at the expense of other attacking players so should be compared to the likes of Silva, Ozil etc rather than Barry and Carrick.
Hmmm think you're overestimating Barry somewhat and not quite got why liverpool lined up as they did. Barry isn't the best defensive midfielder out there and certainly not as good as say a mascherano in that role. In that liverpool team the central 3 was very well balanced. You had Mascherano who was the pure dm, and the main man responsible for the defensive work. Then you had Alonso who was the playmaker and helped to keep them solid in the middle and then Gerrard as the attacking midfilder. Putting in Barry wouldn't have changed anything. The whole point of the formation was to release Gerrard in to an attacking role which relieved the majority of the defensive work he had to do. Had they added Barry he would have just been an inferior version of Alonso and I highly doubt they would have then changed the system to bring in another attacker. If they wanted to do that they could have put Gerrard next to Mascherano, who as I said is a better dm than Barry.
This is mad.
Honestly their fans saying stuff like this is why I find it hard to look at City as more than a comedy club. Are you genuinely telling me you think Barry's better than Alonso? If Barry is so good why has Mancini spent nearly £30m bringing Rodwell and Garcia in?
Barry is a midtable player. If he wasn't English he would never have made it so far. Without Toure to carry him Barry looks like a left footed less aggressive Scott Parker. Besides his ability to occasionally hit a good left footed drive Barry is nothing more than just above average.
To compare him to Alonso is actually laughable. From 2008/09 onwards Alonso has been top dollar. Barry can only wish he had the kind of influence Alonso had that year for Liverpool for you lot. Its hard to believe you don't mean this thread as a wind up cos even for a City fan this line of argument is on the edges of extreme delusion...
...and people wonder why I can't take City seriously...
He's not criminally underrated. He's a decent player at best. He can get into the Man City team and do a job but he's far from your best midfielder and Alonso would walk into the team ahead of him.
He's more than a luxury player, or a grafter. If he was a 'luxury player', then he wouldn't be starting for the champions of Spain as their first choice central midfielder. I don't even have to explain the grafter one because he's just not a grafter. He's the exact opposite of one in many senses.
He's not a similar player to Silva. One is an attacking midfielder who can either play in behind the main striker, or who can start out on the wing and drift inside. He doesn't really need to be too defensively sound because that's not his job and other players deal with that. Alonso, on the other hand, sits much deeper, and is good at defending. Do you have this vision that midfielders who play deep and don't have a lot of dig or don't get about too much are poor at that aspect of their game? He's just not like a Silva or Alonso though. He belongs in the deeper realms of the pitch.
Bit of a wum thread?
Park > Messi
Sure Messi can pass, score goals and all, other then that he just runs around alot. Park can defend as well as run around!
Park > Messi
Sure Messi can pass, score goals and all, other then that he just runs around alot. Park can defend as well as run around!
Alonso is bloody brilliant. I watch most Madrid games and he's the heartbeat for them, just keeps them calm and dictates from the middle, freeing up their attacking players to be a bit more creative.
Barry is a decent player, but nowhere near Alonso's level. I'd say Toure is though, even though he plays a slightly different role.
Barry is a decent player, but nowhere near Alonso's level. I'd say Toure is though, even though he plays a slightly different role.
are people really having this debate?
Alonso is brilliant, light years ahead of the likes of Barry
Alonso is brilliant, light years ahead of the likes of Barry
That's just a lazy assumption about lazy assumptions. What you're describing is someone like Pirlo, whereas for me Alonso is much more like Carrick in that he gets through a lot more defensive work. And it's not all through unquantifiable skills like 'reading the game', it's right there for everyone to see. Just look at the number of total/avg. tackles they make...
Code:
Alonso Barry
11/12: 109 (3) 85 (2.5)
10/11: 110 (3.2) 89 (2.7)
09/10: 126 (3.7) 113 (3.3)Will Barry get involved in more 50-50s, aerial battles etc.? Certainly, but then I'm not trying to prove Alonso's better defensively, but he's clearly not as much of a luxury as you're suggesting. What you're saying about Alonso is the kind of thing that people said about Carrick before we signed him, 'just because he sits deep doesn't make him a DM', 'he needs someone like Diarra or Keane alongside him to do all the tackling' etc., comparing him to Pirlo, and then in his first season he had a wonderful partnership with Scholes... I think it's a bit of an insult to compare Alonso's defensive game to someone like Pirlo.
You were only on the board for his last year at Anfield! Which happened to be the year after Rafa tried to unload him for Gareth Barry - meaning praise for Alonso was equivalent to a
There were loads of people in the years before that who claimed he was a nothing player.
This is true, though I'm surprised to hear that. Skimming through that Carrick thread and a couple of others made it seem like he was generally highly thought of - great first season, inconsistent for a while but still a class player e.g.
This seemed a fairly common opinion in the beginning.
You're putting words in my mouth.
Alonso is not similar to Silva, but his role in the team is. Ie both are there to create opporunities. So for that reason they should be considered similar and their effect on the team should be compared.
Alonso is a good player no doubt. If that's come into question you've misunderstood me completely. My main issue is he's not great defensively, maybe I rate him a little less offensively but I still think he plays an important role in moving the ball round the pitch.
I guess what it comes down to is the type of defending the PL requires. The main difference between here and Spain is if you press players here they lose the ball very easily. So in that sense pressing is more important here. Also teams are a lot more dangerous aerially here.
It's for those two reasons Barry suits the PL more imo. He gets about the pitch far more being aggressive and strong, putting teams under pressure. And when we need to dig in, he's great in the air.
There's the problem! If you don't understand what Alonso brings to the game that's different and vastly superior to Barry I suggest that you keep "not seeing it". Just stop watching football all together, or at the very least stop trying to debate football.
Honestly, how was this guy promoted? I know views and opinions can vary and that's fair enough, but this is fecking madness. Alonso was excellent at Liverpool (particularly towards the end of his time there) and is consistently brilliant for both Spain (best national team in the world) and Real Madrid (one of the best club teams in the world) and we're actually debating whether he's better than Gareth fecking Barry?
Madrid's problem post-Makelele was squeezing in luxury players into their midfield. That was why world-class defenders like Samuel and Cannavaro were routinely embarrassed because of the disarray in front of them against the most robust opposition (the 4-0 hammering Liverpool dished out in the Champions League a case in point). Following Alonso's arrival, it was no coincidence that their defensive record improved and they begun to regularly control the middle of the park.
Wouldn't have thought the stats would come out like that...
Imo there's two ways to defend. Proactively and reactively. You can sit back like Alonso or you can get in people's faces like Barry. Neither is right or wrong. But proactive defending suits this league more. Because of what I've said in the post above. Reactive suits the CL more and probably international tournaments.
Looking at the really dominant PL sides like the invincibles, Mourinho's chelsea, United over the years with Keane there was always aggressive midfielders like Vieira, Essien, Keane at the helm. These sides never converted their domestic dominance to European. Your European success improved when you brought in Carrick, but recently you've struggled to dominate league teams in the way of old.
Obviously there are other factors so it's not going to be a perfect relationship and there will be counter examples. Hope that will help you see where I'm coming from more though.
Barry suits PL football, Alonso european football.
For starters they also brought in Mourinho.
But what Alonso did/does in La Liga is a bit irrelevant, I'm talking about how suited he is to the PL.
Wouldn't have thought the stats would come out like that...
Imo there's two ways to defend. Proactively and reactively. You can sit back like Alonso or you can get in people's faces like Barry. Neither is right or wrong. But proactive defending suits this league more. Because of what I've said in the post above. Reactive suits the CL more and probably international tournaments.
Looking at the really dominant PL sides like the invincibles, Mourinho's chelsea, United over the years with Keane there was always aggressive midfielders like Vieira, Essien, Keane at the helm. These sides never converted their domestic dominance to European. Your European success improved when you brought in Carrick, but recently you've struggled to dominate league teams in the way of old.
Obviously there are other factors so it's not going to be a perfect relationship and there will be counter examples. Hope that will help you see where I'm coming from more though.
Barry suits PL football, Alonso european football.
What's great about this, is that Barry's not even all that good at doing that.... it's for this exact that reason that Scott Parker has seemingly become a more important in the England set-up then Barry has, because Scott Parker is much better at this whole "getting in their face" thing that you're banging on about...
I see where you're coming from, I just disagree. We won the title in 06/07 and 07/08 with Carrick-Scholes being the most common partnership, and we dominated most teams. We've not been quite as dominant recently because we don't have a midfield player in the class of Scholes circa '06 more than anything. If we had Fabregas in there we'd be dominating teams just like before, IMO. Carrick's our main defensive player much like Alonso is for Madrid and they're very good at it. Although I do agree that Alonso's not all that brilliant in attack, the hollywood passes are great but he can't open up defences like Scholes can never mind someone like Fabregas.
They're not similar players at all. They're both there to create chances, but I could argue that while he scores goals, Messi creates chances too. Are they both similar players?
He is excellent defensively. Gio made a very good point about Real Madrid defensive record improving since he went there. He's a major part of that. He doesn't run all over the place and dive into challenges; he simply reads the game well and does his job, as well as creating well too.
Players lose the ball here easily when pressed because we're not as good technically as La Liga. That's where your theory falls apart. A technically sound and gifted player like Alonso was able to cope with that player and deal with it well. Players like him are better to have than ones that run around a lot. The Premier League may not be as good La Liga, but you're portraying the physical side as if there are no gifted players; as if it's no more than the SPL. It's still a league with plenty of top players who are technically gifted, even if it falls short of Spain.
You're also making it sound like the English teams play a different sport than the Spanish ones. There may be differences in the leagues, but it's still football. Ultimately, while Barry is more aggressive and gets about a lot, because he's only decent technically, he'll never be better than a player like Alonso. You fall into the stereotype here that deep lying players are only good if they have bite, dig, or whatever you like to call it. A player like Alonso, who can remain composed and keep the ball when pressed as opposed to putting it away and pumping his chest, is far superior to Barry. The evidence was there to prove it when he played for Liverpool. During his time there he was a far superior midfielder to what Barry was then, what he is now and what he ever will be. Alonso is the better player; Alonso is more suited to the Premier League.
Barry doesn't get in people's faces, not in the way off say a Parker, De Jong type, I dunno where this is coming from. I mean I don't watch a lot of City games but I've seen plenty of Barry, he is not really that sort of defensive midfielder, he gets stuck in sure but he doesn't go hounding people. I mean compare Barry as a holding player for England to Parker, different approaches.
So this idea that he's a different sort of player to Alonso is odd. I'd say Barry is far more similar in terms of approach to Alonso/Carrick than he is to a parker/de jong type.
Also not every holding player has to play that way. Carrick had a great season for us without ever being someone going in and throwing themsleves in to tackles and getting in peoples faces. Makelele was not really like that and was far more about positioning. This idea that to be a good defensive midfielder you have to get stuck in, is as outdated as people saying small players like silva/nasri/hazard etc couldn't cope with the physicality of english football.
Barry is a similar player to Alonso, Alonso is just better. Now there's an argument that Barry may be underrated at times by some, but that's in a similar mould to Carrick. Personally I think Barry is good but he's not as good as Carrick imo and certainly not as good as Alonso, but still a good player. But if Mancini was offered a swap for Alonso he would undoubtedly take it.
So this idea that he's a different sort of player to Alonso is odd. I'd say Barry is far more similar in terms of approach to Alonso/Carrick than he is to a parker/de jong type.
Also not every holding player has to play that way. Carrick had a great season for us without ever being someone going in and throwing themsleves in to tackles and getting in peoples faces. Makelele was not really like that and was far more about positioning. This idea that to be a good defensive midfielder you have to get stuck in, is as outdated as people saying small players like silva/nasri/hazard etc couldn't cope with the physicality of english football.
Barry is a similar player to Alonso, Alonso is just better. Now there's an argument that Barry may be underrated at times by some, but that's in a similar mould to Carrick. Personally I think Barry is good but he's not as good as Carrick imo and certainly not as good as Alonso, but still a good player. But if Mancini was offered a swap for Alonso he would undoubtedly take it.
If anybody in Real should be compared to Silva it should be Ozil.
Alonso is much better than Barry. How there can be any doubt, I don't know.
I can see how Barry is more suited to the PL and Alonso is more suited to La Liga, but even if I were managing a PL side I'd still pick Alonso ahead of Barry all day long.
It might be harder to find a suitable partner for Alonso in the PL. I guess you'd need to play him next to someone who can press but also attack. The Alonso-Mascherano partnership was too weak offensively at Liverpool. Pairing Alonso with a Scholes, Fabregas or Lampard would be too weak defensively. However if you were to partner him with a player like Yaya, Essien, Vieira - or even the player that hopefully Wilshere and Cleverley will become - then you'd have an awesome combination. Far superior than any combination involving Gareth Barry.
That said Barry can step in and play the water-carrier role next to a quality CM/AM. Horses for courses.
It might be harder to find a suitable partner for Alonso in the PL. I guess you'd need to play him next to someone who can press but also attack. The Alonso-Mascherano partnership was too weak offensively at Liverpool. Pairing Alonso with a Scholes, Fabregas or Lampard would be too weak defensively. However if you were to partner him with a player like Yaya, Essien, Vieira - or even the player that hopefully Wilshere and Cleverley will become - then you'd have an awesome combination. Far superior than any combination involving Gareth Barry.
That said Barry can step in and play the water-carrier role next to a quality CM/AM. Horses for courses.
I thought ICIP was joking, wasn't he? If not then I think we should stick to different topics concerning Alonso.
And this bullshit about being 'more suited to PL' is really getting on my tits. Midgets all over from Europe and South America are coming to PL. look at Silva. Aguero. Mata. And so on and so forth. When will this end? City fan should have known better by now.
It's even more staggeringly stupid if you acknowledge that Alonso actually did play in here and proved to be more than capable.
And this bullshit about being 'more suited to PL' is really getting on my tits. Midgets all over from Europe and South America are coming to PL. look at Silva. Aguero. Mata. And so on and so forth. When will this end? City fan should have known better by now.
It's even more staggeringly stupid if you acknowledge that Alonso actually did play in here and proved to be more than capable.
It's not about size, not sure where that comes in to it.
Alonso was good in the PL but his partnership with Mascherano was very defensive and often struggled to break down poor opposition. They didn't win the league that season because they kept drawing with dross like Stoke at Anfield. Benitez did not trust Alonso defensively and so paired him next to a ball-winner (Hamann and later Mascherano), and moved Gerrard into a more advanced position. The Alonso-Gerrard combination was never a big success. It's why from about 2006-2009 many on here preferred Carrick to Alonso, as Carrick actually formed a very strong partnership first with Scholes and later with Fletcher.
Alonso is a bit of enigma. As is Carrick at times. I'm sure both are/would be better suited to La Liga than the PL. That's not to say they can't prosper in the PL though.
Alonso was good in the PL but his partnership with Mascherano was very defensive and often struggled to break down poor opposition. They didn't win the league that season because they kept drawing with dross like Stoke at Anfield. Benitez did not trust Alonso defensively and so paired him next to a ball-winner (Hamann and later Mascherano), and moved Gerrard into a more advanced position. The Alonso-Gerrard combination was never a big success. It's why from about 2006-2009 many on here preferred Carrick to Alonso, as Carrick actually formed a very strong partnership first with Scholes and later with Fletcher.
Alonso is a bit of enigma. As is Carrick at times. I'm sure both are/would be better suited to La Liga than the PL. That's not to say they can't prosper in the PL though.
It is most usually concerned with size hence I noted it. And if it's not, like in Alonso's case, it's concerned with ability on the ball + being able to read the game vs run and tackle. The times the latter would win are long gone, even in English football.
Alonso's better than Barry and would be if he still played here (can't believe I'm discussing it). It's the fact that here, Barry wouldn't look as inferior to Alonso as he would in La Liga. That's the difference. It would reduce the gap slightly, not make Barry a better player.
Alonso's better than Barry and would be if he still played here (can't believe I'm discussing it). It's the fact that here, Barry wouldn't look as inferior to Alonso as he would in La Liga. That's the difference. It would reduce the gap slightly, not make Barry a better player.
Couldn't agree more with the OP.
Cattermole > Schweinsteiger, too.
Cattermole > Schweinsteiger, too.