Would you take Conte at United?

[JPRouve]

Chopping and changing managers every five minutes. They have always accepted fairly robotic football, sometimes it’s okay to watch but they don’t mind playing boring football to win.

So you don't want your club to be like a normal club? You want it to be unsuccessful outside of when it has a great manager?

 

[Wilt]

Can’t see Conte going to Spurs ….but far stranger things have happened.

 

[AgentSmith]

I’d take a Bayern model. Football let, good football, won’t accept low standards.

Bayern have had 3 managers in the same time frame that we’ve had Ole. The first, Niko Kovač, was sacked in November after a poor start and a 5-1 loss. His replacement, Hansi Flick, went on to win the league and Champions League by the end of the same season.

 

[JPRouve]

I’d take a Bayern model. Football let, good football, won’t accept low standards.

The Bayern model include sacking managers even more often than Chelsea, they also played a very cynical brand of football for a long time and would pick a pragmatic manager if it meant winning trophies.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Christ, when Chelsea become the template, you something is drastically wrong.

Exactly!

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Doesnt mean he shouldn't be sacked

Agreed. That’s irrelevant to my sentiment

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

You're right, they never fired underperforming managers mid season before.

I’m not Ole in?

 

[JPRouve]

Christ, when Chelsea become the template, you something is drastically wrong.

But they are not becoming the template, Chelsea are not special at all in that department, they are following the norm.

 

[largelyworried]

Christ, when Chelsea become the template, you something is drastically wrong.

We haven’t so much as challenged for the title since 2013. Something is drastically wrong.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Bayern have had 3 managers in the same time frame that we’ve had Ole. The first, Niko Kovač, was sacked in November after a poor start and a 5-1 loss. His replacement, Hansi Flick, went on to win the league and Champions League by the end of the same season.

I don’t care about sacking managers. Clearly it isn’t all about that

 

[Wilt]

If I were Newcastle owner, I’d be offering Conte a £20m per year, three year contract, plus £10m bonus to keep them up.

Also a write your own cheque budget (fair play permitting)

 

[Abraxas]

If I were Newcastle owner, I’d be offering Conte a £20m per year three year contract, plus £10m bonus to keep them up.

And a write your own cheque budget.

I think he wants to be at a club that have the possibility to win things within the next few years. That's what the word seems to be.

Money talks and all that but Newcastle are a very long project in football terms, even if they stay up.

 

[GazTheLegend]

So you don't want your club to be like a normal club? You want it to be unsuccessful outside of when it has a great manager?

For every 'normal' club that is successful, there are 16 or so 'normal' clubs that are unsuccessful if you define 'success' as winning trophies.. And anyway these successful 'normal' clubs - are you referring to the sugar daddy clubs who spend 2x as much as the other normal clubs? Because that's the REAL key to success.

Edit:. See spurs, an extremely normal club who are on the verge of sacking their third manager two times removed from sacking by far their best manager in the last 30 or maybe even 40 years.

 

[Wilt]

I think he wants to be at a club that have the possibility to win things within the next few years. That's what the word seems to be.

Money talks and all that but Newcastle are a very long project in football terms, even if they stay up.

They need a top manager now and money is their only tool.

Money does talk and I’m sure they’ll be able to lure a very good/top manager.

 

[Eplel]

If I were Newcastle owner, I’d be offering Conte a £20m per year, three year contract, plus £10m bonus to keep them up.

Also a write your own cheque budget (fair play permitting)

He was at 18m at Inter. Newcastle will need to do a lot better than that, to lure someone like Conte in.
Probably around what Atletico is paying Simeone.

 

[Wilt]

He was at 18m at Inter. Newcastle will need to do a lot better than that, to lure someone like Conte in.
Probably around what Atletico is paying Simeone.

Gawd …didn’t realise he was on that much!

It’s no wonder Utd are dragging their feet.

 

[JPRouve]

For every 'normal' club that is successful, there are 16 or so 'normal' clubs that are unsuccessful if you define 'success' as winning trophies.. And anyway these successful 'normal' clubs - are you referring to the sugar daddy clubs who spend 2x as much as the other normal clubs? Because that's the REAL key to success.

Edit:. See spurs, an extremely normal club who are on the verge of sacking their third manager two times removed from sacking by far their best manager in the last 30 or maybe even 40 years.

No I'm thinking about the vast majority of clubs it has nothing to do with sugar daddy clubs and it doesn't get better with smaller clubs, Sochaux, Monchengladbach, Bayern, Ajax, Real Madrid, Dortmund, Lazio, Roma, Juventus, Barcelona whoever you want. United and SAF/Busby aren't the norm in Football, it's exceptional to have managers that stay more than 5 years in clubs, it's generally less than 3.

 

[bond19821982]

I’d take a Bayern model. Football let, good football, won’t accept low standards.

If it was Bayern model, Ole would have been fired long back. They are ruthless when it comes to style and trophies.

 

[hobbers]

See this is one of the big issues. I don't care what Chelsea have won I wouldn't want my club to be anything like that and I hope we never are. If you want the club to be run like Chelsea why not go and support them?

You think our laughable "model" is somehow superior to theirs right now? Morally? Results-wise?

 

[GazTheLegend]

You think our laughable "model" is somehow superior to theirs right now? Morally? Results-wise?

Their owner is a KGB agent, one of Putin's friends, and gained his wealth by falsifying documents on oil trains that were destined elsewhere and instead sent them to his friends, including Boris Berezovsky, who "suicided" in a park. I'd honestly rather Old Trafford fecking exploded than see our club become a vanity project the way Chelsea did.

 

[Ixion]

See this is one of the big issues. I don't care what Chelsea have won I wouldn't want my club to be anything like that and I hope we never are. If you want the club to be run like Chelsea why not go and support them?

I think the way Van Gaal got sacked and then Jose isn't that far from Chelsea model really. Van Gaal was a dead man walking and everyone knew he was getting the sack and we'd lined up Jose for months, not very dignified, and Jose had 2 trophies and a 2nd place finish and was binned after half a season of bad results.

 

[hobbers]

Their owner is a KGB agent, one of Putin's friends, and gained his wealth by falsifying documents on oil trains that were destined elsewhere and instead sent them to his friends, including Boris Berezovsky, who "suicided" in a park. I'd honestly rather Old Trafford fecking exploded than see our club become a vanity project the way Chelsea did.

Leaving aside the copious moral inadequacies of the Glazers. I dont care about the owners, I'm talking about the models. How their board is structured, how they set criteria for hiring and firing managers, who's accountable to who etc.

Clearly Chelsea's is a lot more in line with all the other top clubs in Europe than ours is. They've all converged around short term cycles while we're still stuck in 1995.

 

[JPRouve]

Leaving aside the copious moral inadequacies of the Glazers. I dont care about the owners, I'm talking about the models. How their board is structured, how they set criteria for hiring and firing managers, who's accountable to who etc.

Clearly Chelsea's is a lot more in line with all the other top clubs in Europe than ours is. They've all converged around short term cycles while we're still stuck in 1995.

In 1995 short term cycles were the norm, it was also the norm in 1985, 1975 and 1965.

 

[largelyworried]

I think the way Van Gaal got sacked and then Jose isn't that far from Chelsea model really. Van Gaal was a dead man walking and everyone knew he was getting the sack and we'd lined up Jose for months, not very dignified, and Jose had 2 trophies and a 2nd place finish and was binned after half a season of bad results.

I'm not sure what people think differentiates us from Chelsea at the moment. They've had I think 5 permanent managers & 2 caretakers in the time since Fergie left? We're on 4 perm and 2 caretakers (or 1, depending if you count Ole in that). And lets face it, Ole is probably going sooner than Tuchel, so by the summer its likely to be 5 a piece.

 

[The Cat]

I think the way Van Gaal got sacked and then Jose isn't that far from Chelsea model really. Van Gaal was a dead man walking and everyone knew he was getting the sack and we'd lined up Jose for months, not very dignified, and Jose had 2 trophies and a 2nd place finish and was binned after half a season of bad results.

It wasn't just the bad results for Jose though really he was causing trouble and had to go imo.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Their owner is a KGB agent, one of Putin's friends, and gained his wealth by falsifying documents on oil trains that were destined elsewhere and instead sent them to his friends, including Boris Berezovsky, who "suicided" in a park. I'd honestly rather Old Trafford fecking exploded than see our club become a vanity project the way Chelsea did.

Your owners are all Trump supporters who inherited their wealth from their father's shady real estate dealings. Trying to claim moral superiority between billionaires is a fool's errand.

It's also odd that you'd apparently prefer that the Glazers take money out of the club? Surely it's better to be a vanity project if the club is allowed to spend what they actually earn.

 

[Flytan]

Leaving aside the copious moral inadequacies of the Glazers. I dont care about the owners, I'm talking about the models. How their board is structured, how they set criteria for hiring and firing managers, who's accountable to who etc.

Clearly Chelsea's is a lot more in line with all the other top clubs in Europe than ours is. They've all converged around short term cycles while we're still stuck in 1995.

Exactly, Roman being a kbg agent doesn't mean he has to run the club the way he does. The glazers could easily copy the same structure without committing war crimes. This dude doesn't know how to separate the two. It's sad

 

[hobbers]

In 1995 short term cycles were the norm, it was also the norm in 1985, 1975 and 1965.

Average manager term has been trending down consistently since the 50s.

 

[GazTheLegend]

No I'm thinking about the vast majority of clubs it has nothing to do with sugar daddy clubs and it doesn't get better with smaller clubs, Sochaux, Monchengladbach, Bayern, Ajax, Real Madrid, Dortmund, Lazio, Roma, Juventus, Barcelona whoever you want. United and SAF/Busby aren't the norm in Football, it's exceptional to have managers that stay more than 5 years in clubs, it's generally less than 3.

Barcelona and Real Madrid have had massive financial advantages bestowed upon them for the last 30 years by their leagues. Bayern - I'd argue that without the Chelsea and Man City owners coming in, our club would have been -every bit as dominant as- if not more so than them in the English league. We've even finished second to oil money twice in the last 4 years. Look at the runners ups to leagues in the 2000's and 2010's. Maybe we'd have had a hiccup after Ferguson - but without that oil money crushing everything, Manchester United would have had more titles. I don't think that's even arguable. We are arguing apples and oranges here I think - perhaps changing our manager would be the way forward, I'm actually not suggesting it isn't, or that its the wrong model. I just think that people suggesting our club has failed solely because of its philosophy is wrong, plain and simple. At the least it's multivariate.

 

[JPRouve]

Average manager term has been trending down consistently since the 50s.

But it has never been long in 92/93 the average in the PL was around 3 years, now it's shorter and the PL was the place where you had longer tenures. On the continent it's worse.

 

[JPRouve]

Barcelona and Real Madrid have had massive financial advantages bestowed upon them for the last 30 years by their leagues. Bayern - I'd argue that without the Chelsea and Man City owners coming in, our club would have been -every bit as dominant as- if not more so than them in the English league. We've even finished second to oil money twice in the last 4 years. Look at the runners ups to leagues in the 2000's and 2010's. Maybe we'd have had a hiccup after Ferguson - but without that oil money crushing everything, Manchester United would have had more titles. I don't think that's even arguable. We are arguing apples and oranges here I think - perhaps changing our manager would be the way forward, I'm actually not suggesting it isn't, or that its the wrong model. I just think that people suggesting our club has failed solely because of its philosophy is wrong, plain and simple. At the least it's multivariate.

What are you talking about, why do you talk about money when what I'm telling you applies to all clubs? I made the point that Chelsea do not have a particular model when it comes to sacking managers, they have a normal and ancient model. We are the ones that used to be exceptional, so it's a bit weird when people look at the norm as if it was strange and not respectable.

 

[Adnan]

I think the way Van Gaal got sacked and then Jose isn't that far from Chelsea model really. Van Gaal was a dead man walking and everyone knew he was getting the sack and we'd lined up Jose for months, not very dignified, and Jose had 2 trophies and a 2nd place finish and was binned after half a season of bad results.

This is a good point, and I think Ole is gone too, and they're likely lining up a replacement in the mould of Potter, ten Hag, Enrique or Adi Hutter, who are options that won't be available until next season.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

The Bayern model include sacking managers even more often than Chelsea, they also played a very cynical brand of football for a long time and would pick a pragmatic manager if it meant winning trophies.

I don’t think I’ve seen Bayern play poor football for a decade at least.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

You think our laughable "model" is somehow superior to theirs right now? Morally? Results-wise?

Yeh for me I don’t want that.

 

[FatTails]

I am going to get a brain hemorrhage reading over and over how sacking the ex-Molde and ex-Cardiff manager after almost three years in charge = “chopping and changing managers”

Where the feck do people live and how do they set their expectations? Look at literally every other big club ffs.

This club is not going to improve and modernize till it shakes off the overly romanticized view of its history, the obsession with replicating the past, and the delusion that we are too different to take the most obvious path.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I think the way Van Gaal got sacked and then Jose isn't that far from Chelsea model really. Van Gaal was a dead man walking and everyone knew he was getting the sack and we'd lined up Jose for months, not very dignified, and Jose had 2 trophies and a 2nd place finish and was binned after half a season of bad results.

Jose was never a Manchester Utd manager for me and should never have been able to disgrace this club with his presence. Can’t stand him and he’s everything we should look to avoid in a manager.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I am going to get a brain hemorrhage reading over and over how sacking the ex-Molde and ex-Cardiff manager after almost three years in charge = “chopping and changing managers”

Where the feck do people live and how do they set their expectations? Look at literally every other big club ffs.

This club is not going to improve and modernize till it shakes off the overly romanticized view of its history, the obsession with replicating the past, and the delusion that we are too different to take the most obvious path.

Has anyone actually said that?

 

[FatTails]

Has anyone actually said that?

Yes. In many threads. Even the insinuation that Conte staying for only 2-3 years means we shouldn’t hire him. That’s an above average tenure for a modern manager!

 

[JPRouve]

I don’t think I’ve seen Bayern play poor football for a decade at least.

Pragmatic isn't a synonymous of poor. Heynckes was a pragmatic manager, as were Kovac, LVG and Ancelotti. What matter to Bayern is quality of execution and success. IIRC their longest tenured manager is Hitzfeld and he was as pragmatic as it gets.

 

[Sultan]

I don't think a coach should be defined by a single way of playing a system. It seems reasonable to assume if Conte did arrive we'd have another build job for a few seasons.