Aye, agreed completely, but we’re Man United and we make decisions based on romanticism and loyalties rather than with a clear purpose to come back to our fecking place. You won’t find many people outside United bubble who wouldn’t be perplexed to hear there are fans preferring Ole’s management to Conte’s. Then again, if OGS eventually wins something big (PL/CL, which IMO won’t happen), I guess it’s supposed to taste much sweeter than those triumphs under soulless managers.
Would you take Conte at United?
- Thread starter bond19821982
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Is the question:
Conte or Ole? Yes of course
or
Conte or any other attainable manager? Probably not
Conte or Ole? Yes of course
or
Conte or any other attainable manager? Probably not
No.
Why are we discussing alternative managers when Ole had a good season behind him. Finishing second, getting to one European final. Sure we didn't win it but we did push it to the very limit, the closest you can get to winning without winning. Either way we are not the club who will be celebrating Europa League win for years to come, neither will we mourn the loss, what is important is the strides forward Ole has been making. And you need to consider the circumstances in which he has done so, trying to bridge the gap that has been made between fans and the owners and somehow motivate his team.
Other club had Super League fiasco too but none have had the revolt of fans as we did.
Some people can't trust the process and just want a flashy name on the bench. This has proven to be a recipe for disaster but some would gladly take that route.
Why are we discussing alternative managers when Ole had a good season behind him. Finishing second, getting to one European final. Sure we didn't win it but we did push it to the very limit, the closest you can get to winning without winning. Either way we are not the club who will be celebrating Europa League win for years to come, neither will we mourn the loss, what is important is the strides forward Ole has been making. And you need to consider the circumstances in which he has done so, trying to bridge the gap that has been made between fans and the owners and somehow motivate his team.
Other club had Super League fiasco too but none have had the revolt of fans as we did.
Some people can't trust the process and just want a flashy name on the bench. This has proven to be a recipe for disaster but some would gladly take that route.
During Ole's time here, Nagelsmann, Tuchel, Poch and Zidane have been available at different times, we did not go for them, we will not go for Conte who falls out inevitably with everybody and leaves an aging squad.
Will never happen
And trust the process got us where? Losing the cup final to much inferior Spanish teams after a train wreck of depressingly negative performance and crashing out of CL stages after taking spanking in Turkey? Being first in the league yet the manager still goes in the press conferences we're surely not good enough to challenge (we're only not good enough if there's no fire in the dressing room)? If this season has proven anything, it is that if you replace a bad, out of his depth manager with a good one, he can instantly elevate the team and win trophies, as in case of Chelsea. When Lampard was leaving, how many would've thought this squad is good enough to win CL? Surely they needed three more years of meticulous rebuilding, eight new players in and five out (including those contracted already by said manager), trust the process and keep it with the club's legend, since it worked once in case of Guardiola over a decade ago (I don't rate Zidane at all and I think he's bound to fail outside Madrid). Sorry mate, I don't see it.
Mate we’ve been rebuilding for going on 7 years, what are you on about?
If you could divert your attention to the post above yours, you'll see what I'm on about. Of course we haven't been fecking rebuilding for 7 years. You're not rebuilding just because you're not winning.
Strictly speaking, whether you trust the process or not doesn't matter to anyone, except to you and your own well-being. But where the process has gotten us is from being a team everyone considered to be in deep crisis, to a point where we've finished in the top 3 in consecutive seasons and is widely regarded as a club poised to enter the title race. But as you say, you don't see it.
I just want to grab one thing in the above argument there, namely this: If this season has proven anything, it is that if you replace a bad, out of his depth manager with a good one, he can instantly elevate the team and win trophies, as in case of Chelsea.
Firstly, as posed that begs the question. The whole actual point is if OGS is a "bad, out of his depth manager", and if you're already assuming that he is you've already answered the question you're pretending to ask. And the claim basically becomes "if you replace a bad manager with a good manager, good things happen". Well, no shit Sherlock. Same thing with the moronic "ruthlessness and tradition" thread.
Mainly however, the implication is that Chelsea's story says that if you replace a relatively unproven manager with a proven, established top club one, then you can very quickly begin to win things. Which is of course complete bollocks. Because OGS isn't Frank Lampard, whoever would replace him isn't Thomas Tuchel, and the Man utd squad isn't the Chelsea squad. The only thing the Chelsea story proves is that it was the right choice for Chelsea in this season to replace Frank Lampard with Thomas Tuchel.
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How about Conte or Zidane?
Why do United think we are different to every other club? You install a manager, they coach the team and they buy players - there’s nothing more to it.
If there was some extreme case where Ole was only buying young players and we were actively forsaking the near term for longer term success you might have a point but our transfer dealings are no different to previous managers with record signings and older expensive players.
What is the difference with what’s happening now aside from Ole being a former player and therefore more fan support and having less experience and, therefore, less expectation?
Conte still.
But if the choice was Zidane or Ole, I think I would still pick Zidane. ZZ brings everything Ole has and also much more.
Is this serious? We're talking about Europe fecking League not CL. A team like United should be expected to win this competition pretty easily especially after getting KOed embarrassingly from CL group stage, not "pushing to the very limit" against a 7th side LA Liga club.
Reaching the EL final was the bare minimum I would expect from a big team getting crashed from CL.
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Ole has been doing a good job however theres a different between the good managers and the elite. Elite managers can change a course of a game, with a tactical change or a substitution or two. The elite managers are the ones who take the risks and go for the win. Over a course of a season that translates into going deeper into cup competitions and gaining more points in the league, turning a defeat into a draw or a draw into a win. Ole isnt in that class. The europa league final demonstrated that in a single game, he doesnt have the tactical nous, the flexibility or that win at all costs mentality.
However for our owners, as long as he make CL qualification every season then hes fine. Like at Arsenal, both owners have no interest in winning trophies, just want dividends from the CL qualification otherwise they would be ruthless and someone like Conte would be in the dugout.
However for our owners, as long as he make CL qualification every season then hes fine. Like at Arsenal, both owners have no interest in winning trophies, just want dividends from the CL qualification otherwise they would be ruthless and someone like Conte would be in the dugout.
Conte is basically a version of Mourinho that is still good. If you want to bring through younger players, take a wholistic long term approach, he's absolutely the wrong kind of manager as he'd take you back to the same merry go around as you had with LvG and Mourinho style appointments. He'll ask you to buy washed up veterans to put together a title challenge, he might very well win it but sooner or later he pisses his employer's off and you are stuck with another bloated squad and unhappy younger players running down their contracts to leave.
The difference with what's happening now is that at the outset of the 19/20 season, it was made a clear that we would pursue the building of a team good enough to challenge for the PL title, and acknowledged that this would require a significant overhaul of the squad, and re-establishing a clear club identity in terms of playing style and also more broadly (what is often referred to as "club culture") which encompasses the academy, the coaching set up, the front office and so on. It was also made clear that this was seen as a process that would take 2-3 seasons. One key element of that was the acknowledgment that United was not in fact a team you could expect to win the PL at that stage with just a few key additions. It was realised that quite a lot of basic things had gone wrong with the club, that they needed fixing before we could claim to again be a top club, and that this would not happen overnight.
This did not happen with David Moyes, who was expected to deliver immediate results with largely the same squad that had won the PL the year before. This also did not happen with Louis van Gaal, who was expected to invest heavily to quickly get us back to where we at that point still thought we should be, and would be if only we had a competent manager. It certainly did not happen with Jose Mourinho, whom nobody in his right mind would expect to attend to the long term foundations of the club and its culture, and which obviously reflected a conviction that the pieces were there, or were within immediate reach.
There was never before OGS a mindset to take the time to properly build a winner, or an acknowledgement that until we did that, we were no longer in fact a top club. And we weren't. Now we are at least well on our way to be. That's what matters. People seem to think they have higher expectations for the club by demanding a title of some sort. Personally I think that's having lower standards, not higher. Expecting a PL title within the next 2-3 seasons is a higher aim than getting a CC next season.
Also, all of this is not just connected to replacing SAF. The team he won his last title with was on the verge of retirement, there had been a criminal neglect of investment in renewal in his last few years, and even if he'd been ten years younger and carried on, we would have faced these issues although we would have been spared the disruption to style, club culture and structure that Moyes, LvG and Mourinho brought with them. It would not have been easy. But OGS is really the first post-SAF manager who is being given the chance to do this right.
Appreciate the thoughtful reply although, as you can imagine, I don’t really agree that there is a rebuild going on based off the above.
For me, you are describing, in part, the overdue modernisation of the club which is outside of a managers remit. Ole has benefited from the issues Mou, LVG and Moyes faced and there is a new structure in place and I guess time will tell if anything actually improves re transfer committee. What happens on the pitch hasn’t really changed much - we’re basically a more risk taking version of Jose’s team.
LVG was brought in to build a whole new team and implement a brand new style we’d play - it was three year deal designed for him to leave the foundations so I’m unsure how you’ve missed that. Ole has way less on his plate than LVG did because LVG actually coached the team and has a very different tactical style, unlike Ole who isn’t coaching and isn’t trying anything crazy tactically.
I don’t see how you are tying your post into rebuilding a team because Ole is in his, what, 5th? Transfer window and it’s not like he’s trusting youth players. We should have a team that can dispatch Villarreal in a final for example surely?
I agree that when he arrived he shouldn’t have immediately challenged but after £300m+, his first choice of CB, RB and AM plus a lot of other players we should be no? How long does this ‘rebuild’ last? When does this style of play appear because we are statistically worse at pressing than Mou’s United, we concede more goals whilst barely scoring more and we are under Ole the draw kings of the PL. He must be creeping up the list of our longest serving manager and he’s won nothing and we aren’t really seen as entertaining to watch anymore.
I love the guy, I don’t have anything against the positives he brings off the pitch but there is a need for some cold non sentimental thinking here. There is no rebuild - you’re just having your expectations managed.
I didn't know a lot about Conte but have been trying to read up on his time from player to manager.
Some of what I have read in the comments seems to indicate that Conte has been a problem everywhere he has gone. Now I don't know enough of the detail, maybe someone can correct me, but has he been the problem?
He seems to go in and do the job required in terms of league wins. Failure in the CL seems to be the main problem/issue. But then look at Pep.
His current/last club I don't blame him for leaving. You can't win the league and then be told what he has.
As I say I don't maybe know enough about the guy but he doesn't seem to be as problematic as he is being made out to be.
Some of what I have read in the comments seems to indicate that Conte has been a problem everywhere he has gone. Now I don't know enough of the detail, maybe someone can correct me, but has he been the problem?
He seems to go in and do the job required in terms of league wins. Failure in the CL seems to be the main problem/issue. But then look at Pep.
His current/last club I don't blame him for leaving. You can't win the league and then be told what he has.
As I say I don't maybe know enough about the guy but he doesn't seem to be as problematic as he is being made out to be.
Not sure who's rejected who but even if conte rejected Spurs then its still for the same reasons i wouldn't want him at united. For Spurs it would have been a good move as they need a trophy or a title to help keep the core players at the club.
Ole has signed one played that doesn't fit into our system and that's vdb, and the jury is still out on that point. There's still time for him to come good and make a positive impact on the first team. Maguire, awb and Fernandes have been good for us and lifted us up the table. Awb is a brilliant defender and the thought process behind it all was to train him to be better at attacking to add a new dimension to his game. So far it's still a work in progress.
What other expensive players has ole bought that don't fit? Conte comes in and we get stuck with players on huge wages and no resale value ready for putting out to pasture in 2 years. Good for the short term but long term it isn't viable. I'm not saying ole is defo the answer to winning the league but I'd rather have a sustainable project ongoing than short term fixes.
Another point is that we won't be throwing money at the team every season or two that would be needed to keep rebuilding, 1 or 2 signings per season is enough to sustain the model and then concentrate on the youth setup to bring through new players.
No.
Haven't you guys learnt enough about hiring egoistic manager who only cares about themselves? How many have we hired and everything backfired with them criticising the club and messing up the entire atmosphere and plan?
He is a manager who care about short term and won't stick with anything long term except his own demands...
Just hire him in Fifa21 for goodness sake...
He is a manager who care about short term and won't stick with anything long term except his own demands...
Just hire him in Fifa21 for goodness sake...
I’ve always supported Ole but his in-game management at the Europa final and his complete reluctance to trust his bench has really made me think hard about his ability to deliver trophies at the highest levels. We had decent quality on the bench relative to the opponent on the day.
Top managers make critical and instinctual changes/gambles to increase the probability of victory, especially when a cup is at stake. Keeping a tired first 11 for most of the game just reeks of amateurism.
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I feel Conte would have approached that game differently given his vast experience in winning when it counts.
Top managers make critical and instinctual changes/gambles to increase the probability of victory, especially when a cup is at stake. Keeping a tired first 11 for most of the game just reeks of amateurism.
.
I feel Conte would have approached that game differently given his vast experience in winning when it counts.
Of all the realistic manager targets, he's the most likely to win us the League next year, however unlikely that may sound at this point in time.
For that simple reason, I'd say yes
For that simple reason, I'd say yes
Tottenham’s “well we never wanted him anyway” PR spin once it was revealed he was hesitant after finding out how much of a tight arse Levy was planning to be this sumner was hilarious
A slightly more modern, less cnutish Mourinho. No thanks.
A defensive-minded, volatile, self-serving short-term manager who will provide unattractive football while falling out with virtually everyone, and will eventually leave behind a couple of trophies but also an ageing, mentally damaged squad with no foundations layed for the future.
Haven't we been there already? Have we learned nothing?
I'm astounded that this thread exists, and that one third are supporting the idea, after what we went through with Mourinho.
I would love for us to be winning trophies but the most important thing for me is that for the first time since Fergie left, I actually like the team again. We have a young squad, a tribe of English players, the players look like they enjoy playing together, and we're trying, though not always succeeding, to play ambitious football. This is a team worth supporting. If you hire Conte, all that is over.
Haven't we been there already? Have we learned nothing?
I'm astounded that this thread exists, and that one third are supporting the idea, after what we went through with Mourinho.
I would love for us to be winning trophies but the most important thing for me is that for the first time since Fergie left, I actually like the team again. We have a young squad, a tribe of English players, the players look like they enjoy playing together, and we're trying, though not always succeeding, to play ambitious football. This is a team worth supporting. If you hire Conte, all that is over.
This.
So, you are telling me buying Falcao, Di Maria, Shaw, Depay, Schweinsteiger, Darmian, Rojo, Schneiderlin and Martial was part of ONE plan to implement a brand new style? And not to get results immediately? I strongly disagree.
Also, about the "deal designed for him", who told you that? Where was it said? I must have missed it too.
I really hoped for Conte in 2013 (or Klopp), 2014, 2016 and 2018. I found it so weird that people in here prefered Mourinho over Conte in 2016.
I think that the squad we had in 2018 would have been perfect for him. But at this stage? Not that sure. The squad we have dont really suit him. I’m sure he would adapt and find solutions (like he always do). But he would not be perfect for us (like he was a few years ago).
I think that the squad we had in 2018 would have been perfect for him. But at this stage? Not that sure. The squad we have dont really suit him. I’m sure he would adapt and find solutions (like he always do). But he would not be perfect for us (like he was a few years ago).
LVG was definitely hired to rebuild the squad after Moyes debacle. He sold most of the squad Moyes inherited and bought 11 players. Players like Falcao or Bastian are no different than signing Cavani, experienced players available so no harm in signing them to transfer their experience to the squad.
The rest were all part of a huge project that was supposed to extend for several years. We didn't sign Di Maria on the intent of selling him the next year. He was much bigger signing than Bruno. He was supposed to be the heart of this new United team for years. Depay, Martial, Rojo, Darmian and Shaw were all supposed to be starters for several years as well. Depay, Martial and Shaw specifically were young prospects back then.
What happened is these signings sucked. His transfers were shit and the foundations he was building the team on was crap, so he got fired before the 3 years ended. The style he was implementing drove most fans to sleep. There was no reason to believe a 3rd year will make much difference because his transfers were horrendous enough.
Generally look at the ages of those players when they arrived bar Falcao as he was a loan. Also you read up on how those players came to the club, players like Schneiderlin weren’t chosen by LVG (Schneiderlin confirmed this).
Read the exit interviews given by LVG. Woodward’s way of framing his sacking was he only had a year left anyway (LVG’s wife wanted him to retire previously and he apparently promised her United would be his last job). He was already semi retired when he joined us.
It doesn’t take much to read articles and watch interviews - all this information is online. I don’t really see why any of it would be disputed?
What happens on the pitch hasn’t really changed much - we’re basically a more risk taking version of Jose’s team.
Sorry, what? I think that's completely and fairly self-evidently wrong.
LVG was brought in to build a whole new team and implement a brand new style we’d play - it was three year deal designed for him to leave the foundations so I’m unsure how you’ve missed that. Ole has way less on his plate than LVG did because LVG actually coached the team and has a very different tactical style, unlike Ole who isn’t coaching and isn’t trying anything crazy tactically.
The difference with LvG's situation was that no one was prepared to assume it'd take 2-3 seasons before we were a really competitive team again. We all still thought that should happen pretty much right away. And there obviously wasn't buy-in from the club re the style of play LvG was building, given that he was fired after 2 seasons and replaced with someone who went in a completely different direction.
I don’t see how you are tying your post into rebuilding a team because Ole is in his, what, 5th? Transfer window and it’s not like he’s trusting youth players. We should have a team that can dispatch Villarreal in a final for example surely?
This is just simplistic. A rebuild isn't defined by a set number of transfer windows. There are still many areas of the squad that needs to be addressed. What the club delivered this season is well on track, in my opinion.
I agree that when he arrived he shouldn’t have immediately challenged but after £300m+, his first choice of CB, RB and AM plus a lot of other players we should be no?
Nope. This is not a squad good enough to win the PL, by some distance still. And come on, adding up the value of transfers as if that's a relevant measure of quality is the laziest argument around.
When does this style of play appear because we are statistically worse at pressing than Mou’s United, we concede more goals whilst barely scoring more and we are under Ole the draw kings of the PL. He must be creeping up the list of our longest serving manager and he’s won nothing and we aren’t really seen as entertaining to watch anymore.
The style of play seems clear enough, but you seem to prefer not to see it. I think most people would agree that we are hugely more entertaining to watch than under Mourinho. And you know as well as I do that I could throw stats and results at you that tells the opposite story of those.
I love the guy, I don’t have anything against the positives he brings off the pitch but there is a need for some cold non sentimental thinking here.
What, and you imagine that's what you're doing?
There is no rebuild - you’re just having your expectations managed.
...and then just to dot your i's, there's this. Suuuure Tomaldinho, I'm just having my expectations managed whereas you're engaging in "cold non-sentimental thinking". Do you realise how feckless it makes you appear to employ an argument like that? Or what sort of people normally use it? No, of course you don't.
No thanks. Some of you are gluttons for punishment
There is nothing I hate more than the ever constant revolving door of managers in football clubs.
For me clubs just have more of an identity when they create real bonds you can only form with the help of time..
Like Ferguson at United, Wenger at Arsena, Simeone at Atletico, Moyes in Everton.
Even Klopp and Pep are coming up as lengthy club servants with 5 and 6 years at the helm.
So yeah, that's a no to Conte, he can go be demanding and unreasonable somewhere else.
Of course we're not pursuing him. If we had of won the EL Ole would of signed his 3 year contract the next day. Because we didn't the club are just waiting for an opportune moment for him to sign on the dotted line. They aren't letting their dream manager get away especially for someone like Conté who likes to rock the boat too much. I do agree in not signing Conté but shutting the door on everyone else will just be another bad decision from the club. Another of many.
Replace C with K and O with A.
1. Not to distract from the rebuild argument but I think you'd be surprised by the stat comparison if you disagree here. If you compare Jose's 81 point season with the season just gone, it's uncanny how similar they are. We still setup with 2 primarily defensive CMs in a pair, we still don't have an organised press (again this is worse than under Jose statistically). Even if you hugely disagree here - I'm sure we agree Ole is not that out there tactically and therefore, just looking at the on field tactics, after 2.5 years you'd assume we're not still rebuilding here?
| Jose | Ole | |
| Win Rate % | 65.7 | 56.6 |
| Shots per game | 13.4 | 13.7 |
| Points per game | 2.1 | 2.0 |
| Goals scored per game | 1.78 | 1.93 |
| Goals conceded per game | 0.73 | 1.1 |
| Shots against per game | 11.4 | 11.1 |
2. I agree re LVG but then I also don't think anyone thought it would be ok for us not to challenge after 3 seasons with Ole? If you're saying you didn't, surely you see how my original point stands, that he has less expectations? Also factor in how many 30+ years players LVG had and he needed to shift, Ole never had any of the issues LVG/Mou had with phasing out the massive personalities like Rooney.
3. You have to try and assess somehow though, surely? Ole inherited a good, if not great team, and has added a lot of money to it. He has bought 10 players now, with most Cavani, Maguire, AWB, James, VdB, Bruno, Teles being senior players.
4. How can you possibly think that transfer spend isn't a way to measure quality? You think £80m Maguire isn't reflective of him being a top CB at Leicester? That Pep's spending has no reflection of them repeatedly winning the league?
5. I'll refer you back to the stats with Mou/Ole comparison - even if you disagree here we haven't transformed tactically to any crazy degree i.e. hired Bielsa or Allegri.
6. Yes. See all the above.
7. Not sure why that has annoyed you, for me it's a clear way for the Glazers + club to ease pressure and manage the expectations of fans. This also ties into him being a former player, it's clever from the board, but that's why I sad cold non-sentimental thinking - everyone I speak to, yourself included, who is really pro Ole seems to fall back on intangible stuff like 'culture' and dismiss our failings (because we have now failed to win anything at all in a while) behind this 'rebuild' because the stats really don't add up in his favour. Players are comfortable and happy but is United's culture to continuously bottle cup games? I am completely willing to be wrong here but I'm yet to see any stats which show a big change tactically or in style of play, plus this season the excitement has, nine times out of ten, come from us conceding to rubbish teams and then chasing the game not from our scintillating football.
If Ole wasn't Ole, for example, and we'd hired someone random and unproven like Eddie Howe or Rose, they'd have been long gone by now. I don't say that to wind you up, I think most people would accept it's probably true?
FYI you didn't answer this question but I'd appreciate a 'yes' or 'no' as it's quite straightforward:
No. Great manager and proven winner - especially domestically, but also seems very prone to short term signings (if I assume Inter signings were at his request) and I don't find the system he plays to be too pleasing on the eye. He also plays a specific system (which requires wingbacks as an example) which will result in yet another deviation from a certain style of play (Moyes ---> LvG ------> Jose -----> Ole -----> Conte -----> ?) meaning another potentially unbalanced squad after Conte signings, and again, when Conte is eventually sacked/he resigns. All in my opinion, of course. But i'd prefer some proper succession planning, than jumping around for more short term fixes which "might" cost us dearly in the medium to long run. All these things considered, without even taking into account that he is by no means a "sure thing" signing with Pep, Klopp, Tuchel around....
It's hard to tell in several cases just what your numbered points address in my previous post, but to the best of my ability:
1. I don't think these stats make the argument that we're playing a similar style now to what we were under Mourinho. You have to look at a much more extensive and detailed set of stats if you want to tease out whatever stats can tell us about the differences between those two teams.
2. "Ok for Ole not to challenge after 3 seasons"? The season coming up now would be his third, so that'd be for the 22/23 season. By which time I most certainly hope United will be challenging for a title. That however depends on the investment in the squad, more than anything else. If your point is that challenging for the PL is overdue right now, then I think you're being completely unrealistic. We're ahead of schedule, not behind.
3. Is just another pointless nominal argument, like "he's spent 300m so we should be winning now".
4. Of course transfer spending isn't a direct measure of quality. First of all, because you're not even talking about net spending. Secondly because there's not an automatic correlation between the price of a player and his impact on a team's fortunes. Thirdly because a lot of things go into the creation of a strong team than just how much money you spend. Fourthly because how much you need to spend to fix your problems depends on how big the problems you have to fix are. Also, rich clubs use expensive solutions (for the excellent reason that they are more likely to be the right solutions, and because they can), but it's not like this is a meter that goes ping when a certain level has been reached, and then that turns into a certain result.
7. Ok, you define your view as being motivated by a clear-headed lack of sentimentality, and the opposing view as being based on allowing oneself to be duped into mindlessly echoing a manipulative narrative by the owners. And you're really not sure why that's "annoying" (although "annoying" is your take on that, what I wrote was that it made it you look feckless, because that's generally the only type of person who'd use an argument like that). You really, really should try to understand why, because this is much more important than anything at stake in this discussion. It's to do with making two assumptions that are both invalid, because they depend on things that are outside your range of vision, so using them means you don't realise the limitations this should impose. The first is that you can't really tell if your own argument represents "cold, non-sentimental reasoning", because people can't easily know their own biases - everybody will normally experience their own views as being that, which doesn't mean that's the case. Hence, it's better to let the arguments do the talking. In this particular case, the much bigger issue is that you're not only assuming that your own views represent "cold non-sentimental thinking", but also that the club's reasoning for retaining OGS is due to sentimental attachment, while my view apparently isn't a view at all, just the mindless echoing of a manipulative club narrative which I presumbaly lack the critical faculties to comprehend. This you have even less basis for assuming. The fundamental point is that arguments stand on their own merit, whereas you are in effect trying to shortcut and replace discussion by proposing that yours are the only arguments that is based on a valid frame of mind.
What exactly do you think it proves that you think we'd have fired Eddie Howe by now, if we'd hired him? I know, you think it proves that we've only kept OGS because of sentimental reasons. The reality is that we've kept OGS because so far he's delivering what he was asked to deliver.
Last question (surely should have beaten Villareal): You really do have a tiresome penhcant for simplistic arguments. That to me goes into the same box as "because he now have these players", "because he's had 5 windows" and "because he's spent 300m".
You broke the post into segments so unsure how it would be difficult to follow the numbers...
1. Please provide some stats then...I've made a point and pointed out some things I think show we're actually not that different, we just take a bit more risk but play the same way. There's a whole separate thread on this if better to discuss there.
2. It would be this season 21/22 not next season. That's not taking into account the half season stint when he came in. Most Ole In people I have spoken to seem to agree this upcoming season is make or break for him.
3. As said, you have to measure things somehow. Happy to use other metrics.
4. You have to accept it's at least part of the puzzle. He's been backed heavily.
7. what on earth are you saying here? Of course I am saying that, I've made it very clear and if you want to respond, that's the entire point of a forum where fans discuss their views on their football club. I do believe the club is managing expectations with the ongoing 'rebuild' narrative and you can agree/disagree or no care one jot...it's up to you.
My point re Howe and Rose, who were random examples, surely was obvious? Neither are former players. If you are saying you would be happy with them and want them to stay had they joined and then done exactly as ole has done that's fine, it's your opinion and I disagree.
re the Villarreal question - we have to at least try and measure performance based off various metrics. For a professional football team one of those metrics is trophies. The fact you have avoided answering twice now is a shame.
Your statements bolded, my replies not.
1. Please provide some stats then...I've made a point and pointed out some things I think show we're actually not that different, we just take a bit more risk but play the same way. There's a whole separate thread on this if better to discuss there.
What, you haven't provided a meaningful basis for your argument, so now it's up to me to do the job you haven't? I might though, since it's actually an interesting question how they compare.
In any case however, the main point here is that if you argue the statistical performance is similar, then you are also saying that Mourinho's peak level is so bad that OGS should be fired for it. Also, if the team makes major strides next season, as you seem to expect, then obviously that would greatly outdo Mourinho, who managed the exact opposite. So, if we're already matching the (statistically) best season we've had since SAF, and you expect us to do better than that next season, why again was it we needed to sack the manager?
2. It would be this season 21/22 not next season. That's not taking into account the half season stint when he came in. Most Ole In people I have spoken to seem to agree this upcoming season is make or break for him.
You wrote "okay not to challenge after 3 seasons" which could reasonably be understood to mean you expected us to challenge in the 4th, but no problem, clarification taken. My answer to that is this season or next, but depending on the squad. Right now we're not there. Depending on this transfer window, we might be.
3. As said, you have to measure things somehow. Happy to use other metrics.
Why on earth would you use metrics in a deterministic way to answer a question like that? You can use stats to inform your assessment of where things are, but lots of other things play into it too.
4. You have to accept it's at least part of the puzzle. He's been backed heavily.
Yes, of course. But it's not the puzzle, and again you can't just use it deterministically, as if a given level of spending should produce a particular result.
7. what on earth are you saying here? Of course I am saying that, I've made it very clear and if you want to respond, that's the entire point of a forum where fans discuss their views on their football club. I do believe the club is managing expectations with the ongoing 'rebuild' narrative and you can agree/disagree or no care one jot...it's up to you.
Okay, you don't get it. Your problem, I'm afraid.
My point re Howe and Rose, who were random examples, surely was obvious? Neither are former players. If you are saying you would be happy with them and want them to stay had they joined and then done exactly as ole has done that's fine, it's your opinion and I disagree.
No, this is not a disagreement. This is you bringing in a pointless observation based on circular reasoning. In other words, you haven't made any sort of point.
re the Villarreal question - we have to at least try and measure performance based off various metrics. For a professional football team one of those metrics is trophies. The fact you have avoided answering twice now is a shame.
Sorry, but what you're doing here has nothing to do with "metrics". Metrics aren't drawing deterministic and bombastic conclusions about managers on the basis of a few simplistic indicators.
1. Please provide some stats then...I've made a point and pointed out some things I think show we're actually not that different, we just take a bit more risk but play the same way. There's a whole separate thread on this if better to discuss there.
What, you haven't provided a meaningful basis for your argument, so now it's up to me to do the job you haven't? I might though, since it's actually an interesting question how they compare.
In any case however, the main point here is that if you argue the statistical performance is similar, then you are also saying that Mourinho's peak level is so bad that OGS should be fired for it. Also, if the team makes major strides next season, as you seem to expect, then obviously that would greatly outdo Mourinho, who managed the exact opposite. So, if we're already matching the (statistically) best season we've had since SAF, and you expect us to do better than that next season, why again was it we needed to sack the manager?
2. It would be this season 21/22 not next season. That's not taking into account the half season stint when he came in. Most Ole In people I have spoken to seem to agree this upcoming season is make or break for him.
You wrote "okay not to challenge after 3 seasons" which could reasonably be understood to mean you expected us to challenge in the 4th, but no problem, clarification taken. My answer to that is this season or next, but depending on the squad. Right now we're not there. Depending on this transfer window, we might be.
3. As said, you have to measure things somehow. Happy to use other metrics.
Why on earth would you use metrics in a deterministic way to answer a question like that? You can use stats to inform your assessment of where things are, but lots of other things play into it too.
4. You have to accept it's at least part of the puzzle. He's been backed heavily.
Yes, of course. But it's not the puzzle, and again you can't just use it deterministically, as if a given level of spending should produce a particular result.
7. what on earth are you saying here? Of course I am saying that, I've made it very clear and if you want to respond, that's the entire point of a forum where fans discuss their views on their football club. I do believe the club is managing expectations with the ongoing 'rebuild' narrative and you can agree/disagree or no care one jot...it's up to you.
Okay, you don't get it. Your problem, I'm afraid.
My point re Howe and Rose, who were random examples, surely was obvious? Neither are former players. If you are saying you would be happy with them and want them to stay had they joined and then done exactly as ole has done that's fine, it's your opinion and I disagree.
No, this is not a disagreement. This is you bringing in a pointless observation based on circular reasoning. In other words, you haven't made any sort of point.
re the Villarreal question - we have to at least try and measure performance based off various metrics. For a professional football team one of those metrics is trophies. The fact you have avoided answering twice now is a shame.
Sorry, but what you're doing here has nothing to do with "metrics". Metrics aren't drawing deterministic and bombastic conclusions about managers on the basis of a few simplistic indicators.
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