Agree with all of that.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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Agree with all of that.
No, what I said was factually correct. We didn't go into this group favorites to knock out last seasons semi finalist and finalist. I assume thats the statemen you're riled up with.
Wait...which reality is this in?
I'd say all but the most pessimistic United fans thought we'd progress through our group. PSG were seen as the probably winners and then, whilst RBL are not an 'easy' pot 3 like Krasnodar you generally fancy yourself against them. In the same way had we drawn Inter or Atlanta I would have expected us to progress.
The only group that's not really gone as expected is B, the rest are pretty much exactly where most pundits thought they'd shake out. We need a point from the last game against a pot 3 team, that's a strong position to be in.
I'm not fully in agreement that some of the greatest teams were built around one player. Maybe Messi and Ronaldo but with them being 2 GOATS that's an exception although if either didn't play their respective teams still ticked over until they weren't the greatest teams anymore.
Look at Cities record breaking season. They were without their best player for 3 months and another very important player Aguero missed chunks of the season but still pulled out phenomenal numbers.
Cantona for me revolutionised United but the team wasn't built around him. He was the final piece of the puzzle that took us to great success. Absolutely nothing to do with the way we are as a club today.
You only have to look at Liverpool before Klopp. Gérard is probably one of the best midfielders to play in the PL but how many PL titles did he win? That's the level we're at now.
My argument still stands. After 2 years, spending 300m and having pretty good players to begin with we're still a 1 man team. It's all well and good praising Ole for the run we've been on since lock down bar a few results but we're a Bruno injury away from being a midtable team and while a lot of people seem to be OK with that, I'm not.
You've decided we weren't favourites, and from what I can deduce this painting of us as the underdog of the group is a not so subtle attempt to shower Ole in plaudits he doesn't deserve if we qualify.
If we don't qualify the manager deserves to be questioned.
No, that is untrue. We were not favourites. We got drawn CL finalist and Semi finalise whilst we were in EL.
Please show me someone having Leipzig at better odds than us to qualify before game week 1.
Interesting people are rating Leipzig higher than us because they were semi finalists. Going into the semi finals was an over achievement for them. It's not the standard and was not expected. Are we saying Atalanta are better than us because they were in the quarter finals and we were in Europa. We have a better squad than Leipzig and therefore expected to qualify. Simple
No was just including all the performances
Ole's tenure is definitely an interesting one. Most of the time we are trying to catch up and rarely on the front foot. Most of the time we are chasing the game or chasing top 4. We always put ourselves in a position of discomfort and unnecessarily make things hard and have to turn things around. First half of last season we put ourselves in major discomfort by being several points behind top 4 and turned things around in the second half. This season we started poorly again and put ourselves in a position of discomfort. We are now turning things around again. We put ourselves in a good position in the champions league but just had to lose that Istanbul game to put us in an uncomfortable position. But I would expect us to turn it around because that is the pattern.
We are always chasing and hardly in a comfortable position and I don't think it is sustainable. This is why I think even though us and Chelsea basically have similar outcomes they are seen as more consistent team because they are usually in a more comfortable position than us.
We are always chasing and hardly in a comfortable position and I don't think it is sustainable. This is why I think even though us and Chelsea basically have similar outcomes they are seen as more consistent team because they are usually in a more comfortable position than us.
I'm not saying that building your team around 1 player is the only way to go, but it is one way to go, while we still lack creative alternatives and other distributors in the midfield who can dictate tempo and tempochanges in our games. We are not just one injury away from being mediocre, we are also one or two key signings away from being excactly where we wanna be.
So its a bottle job not being able to beat one of the best german sides who drew 3-3 with Bayern during the weekend - it will be disappointing - but its none of the things you describe
It’s just a narrative for going gung ho #oleout if we loose. And no credit needed if we win. It was the least we could expect. It’s a weak stance, and a parameter of how coward and soft it’s possible to be. Wouldn’t spend to much time arguing about it..
Can you read?
I agree with that in the league, but we should also know that Chelsea last year struggled in CL with a hard group. Liverpool as well have over the years.
It is only City in CL that have really secured things early in the groups.
I think City is normally the team looking comfortable, but they have also failed in CL when it matters for many years.
That is a very feasible point you make but I can only comment on what I see with my own eyes here and now and that's without Bruno we're not a top 4 or perhaps even a top 6 team. Spending another 200m is no guarantee that we'll win titles if we can't bring it all together and while I respect peoples faith in Ole to be the one to take us back to the top personally I don't share those same views.
Fair comments mate.
Out of curiosity, who would you consider to be of sufficient quality (that we can potentially bring in) to drop Ole for?
this thread. We struggled against teams who sat back and defended deep because we had very little creativity in the middle. we bought that creativity to address the issue, now people say it doesn’t count because we’re reliant on that creativity
I suppose a better manager would’ve coached McTominay into a world class playmaker instead.
the arguments some raise in here are just too extreme. We are 5 points off the league leaders with a game in hand, yet some people around here act as if we are getting relegated. It’s ok to change your mind, just be happy we’re progressing and on the right track
There's a few candidates we could go for but the most obvious is Naglesmann. Cue the, well Ole beat Naglesmann so he must be better argument in 3..2..1 go.
Naglesmann is one of the most modern progressive coaches out there and has a history of getting a lot more out of his players than maybe their ability suggests. Much like Klopp. His most expensive signing was €20m but still they're fighting way above their weight and all the while playing an exciting brand of football that's put him on the map. And while we're at it bring in Rangnick as our DOF and that's us sorted for the next decade.
On the other hand it's just a weak as stance to think we're the underdogs so if we win Ole is a fantastic manager and if we lose it was to be expected. Let's face it with Ole in, Ole out. We're both as bad as each other.
You're still missing the point. I'm not arguing that RB had the same resources, I'm arguing that the difference is not what the spending would suggest, due to factors that are not under Ole's control. You don't like him, fair, but it's obvious the squad issue isn't all on him, and if you can't see that then it's because you choose not to.
RB Leipzig are not where they are by luck. They are a startup created by design to disrupt football at the highest level. They are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. They are highly efficient, a lean mean machine. They don't sign players for marketability, or ask a manager who his dream signings are, because they can't afford to. They have a system that works for them but wouldn't work for us due to our stature, reputation and the league we are based in. So apples and oranges. It's a flawed argument.
If you use that argument and believe it, I think you're blinkered, and if you see the flaws in it and still argue it then you're arguing in bad faith.
Like I said before, there's more to a successful club than a coach and a squad.
Thanks for the advice... It’s the best strategy towards people with extreme negative opinions.
The atmosphere inside the club seems very good. I think it is ok for supporters to take side if conflicts start to grow. It’s a disgrace when supporters try to create conflicts on their own.
The overwhelming negativity among some supporters only have negative impact on the club, possibly contributing to an underperforming team.
Did I just read ”They are highly efficient, a lean mean machine”?
Are they a better squad than United? it’s a simple bloody question.
My stance is clear, they aren’t, because I like what Ole has done with the squad and we clearly have better individuals than them.
As for “missing the point”.... What is your stance on the actual point in question here? Rather than post your love letter to RB Leipzig, tell us if you think they have a better squad than United instead of dancing around the point trying to be RedCafe’s answer to Bob Dylan.
Yes, or at least comparable. Their Bundesliga and CL position attest to that.
ah, so Atalanta are also a better squad?
If you think Leipzig have a better squad of individuals than United, you’ve lost your marbles.
Did I just read ”They are highly efficient, a lean mean machine”?
I haven’t lost my marbles, but it's not the simple black and white question you're making it out to be.
Yes it is.
Your point about league position etc is so dumb, it basically says Leicester had a squad comparable to Barcelona or Bayern Munich in 2016. All won their leagues the previous season, all got knocked out in the CL quarters.
Do United have a better squad of individuals than Liverpool, Bayern, City, Juventus... no, clearly.
Did Leicester have a squad comparable to Barcelona and Bayern Munich in 2016... the mere question is laughable aint it?
Do United have a better squad of individuals than Atalanta and Leipzig, quite clearly.
Are United a better side than Leipzig is the nuanced question that we’ve partially discussed, I think we are and we’ll show it again tomorrow, but if not that’s down to the incredible coaching job Nagelsmann is doing.
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Completely agree.
The current pattern of starting badly - but finishing strongly (including genuinely brilliant attacks and goals) is something I'll take every day over the often soul destroying shite served up by previous managers. It's a hell of a sight closer to "United" as I once knew it.
Caveat: No, it doesn't mean he's grand or that he'll ever win the treble with us. But it's a positive.
I haven’t mentioned Leicester, Bayern or Barcelona, and I'm not interested in that discussion beyond saying that isn't an extension of my argument, and yes they had a good team (how good would require a nuanced reply).
The question about how good Leipzig are isn't black and white, but whether you choose to acknowledge that or not is another matter. Probably not, I suspect because going through your posts every win under Ole is the bare minimum, and every loss or draw is a massive shortcoming that exposes how out of his depth he is.
The question of is their squad of individuals better than United’s is black and white.
“How good they are as a collective” isn’t, but we mentioned that about 10 posts back.
Stupid strawman, especially in the current moment.
In the past few weeks I’ve said West Ham was a top result and a deserved win after we twatted them in the last 30 minutes. And I’ve argued that I enjoyed the PSG game a lot, that I don’t need wins to enjoy watching United, watching us take the game to PSG and feeling unlucky to come out of it was brilliant.
I’ve been arguing with you that our squad of individuals is clearly better than Leipzig because of the job Ole has done building it these past 2 years.
It’s precisely the quality of the squad why I sometimes can be hard on the management in times of struggle, I expect out current position, minimum. When we perform to the standard of the squad, I’m pleased, like Feb to the end of the season and like the past month. Losses mean little to me, as long as we perform well.
So give your head a wobble man, if you can’t have a debate without having to resort to making up daft strawmans about a poster, don’t bother, stick to writing silly soundbites about lean, mean Bundesliga machines.
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We aren't a 1 man team fs.
The front 3 scored 60+ goals last season alone, more than liverpool.
The 1 man team really getting pushed now as this next thing to beat the manager with since the rest of the stuff is looking stupid now.
Sounds like rival fans. Heard it all before back when we successful.
Who the manager thing he is buying a player we badly needed, and the player performing as you expect. Darn him
You were arguing that their team was built on a tight budget, while Ole built his on 300m, so not beating them was unacceptable, I argued that a) price is not the metric for assessing squad quality. b) the amount spent does not mean the players were worth that much, and c) the manager does not negotiate the prices, so overpaying is not his problem. Either way, who has the better squad is opinion, not black and white.
All reasonable points
Not going to respond to that.
We had 34 points from 24 PL games before Bruno came in. In the next 14 with Bruno we got 32 more, making a total of 66 points which was just about good enough for a CL place. There's no way we would of been anywhere near a CL spot without Bruno.
This season it wouldn't surprise me if Bruno got whiplash carrying this team on his back. Seriously. Where do you think we'd be in the league if it wasn't for Bruno? 9th?10? Better? Worse? Of course we're a 1 man team with the odd exception, most notably Rashford.
I get Ole Out. You fear the manager is simply not good enough to bring big titles, so better get rid asap and not waste any more time on a train going nowhere. And this fear gets compounded by the fact that under the current owners winning titles is not a requirement for managing Manchester United. Top 4 will do.
So the absolute worst scenario is potentially playing out here, a coach who is not good enough to win but will bring consistent participation in the CL. He could be here a decade and become our Wenger...
Well, here's something to cheer you up. There's nothing you can do about it, so don't worry about it.
And despite what you think, there are quite a few signs Ole could be quite a good manager for us, and a longterm one at that. He's a winner both as a player and as a manager. He doesn't celebrate draws like some previous holders of the job. He doesn't throw players under the bus and he doesn't pull out his junk to make arguments in the dressing room. He does well against the top teams. Better than any manager post Fergie I believe, if not better than Fergie himself. The players play for him. Probably because he keeps a ruthless standard of doing so. With Pogba on the bench the message is clear. Perform or you don't play. Our consistent comebacks are clear evidence of the mentality he has instilled in the team. With Moyes, LvG and Jose, if you went down a goal, you knew we were never winning the match. Not ever. You knew it in your bones because the style United played under all those managers was cowardly, weak willed shit. How many in a row for Ole now?
So yeah, I get the fear, but this is not the time to be afraid. If we start losing match after match and dropping down the table and crashing out of cups, yeah sure bring on the negativity, but right now Ole has deserved to see out the season without anyone hassling him about being sacked. Unless something drastic happens you judge managers on a seasonal basis. As it stands were are still in a position to advance in the CL as group winners in one of the toughest groups in the entire draw, and we are 2 points off the top in the league ten games in. Fear is the last thing I'm feeling right now.
So the absolute worst scenario is potentially playing out here, a coach who is not good enough to win but will bring consistent participation in the CL. He could be here a decade and become our Wenger...
Well, here's something to cheer you up. There's nothing you can do about it, so don't worry about it.
And despite what you think, there are quite a few signs Ole could be quite a good manager for us, and a longterm one at that. He's a winner both as a player and as a manager. He doesn't celebrate draws like some previous holders of the job. He doesn't throw players under the bus and he doesn't pull out his junk to make arguments in the dressing room. He does well against the top teams. Better than any manager post Fergie I believe, if not better than Fergie himself. The players play for him. Probably because he keeps a ruthless standard of doing so. With Pogba on the bench the message is clear. Perform or you don't play. Our consistent comebacks are clear evidence of the mentality he has instilled in the team. With Moyes, LvG and Jose, if you went down a goal, you knew we were never winning the match. Not ever. You knew it in your bones because the style United played under all those managers was cowardly, weak willed shit. How many in a row for Ole now?
So yeah, I get the fear, but this is not the time to be afraid. If we start losing match after match and dropping down the table and crashing out of cups, yeah sure bring on the negativity, but right now Ole has deserved to see out the season without anyone hassling him about being sacked. Unless something drastic happens you judge managers on a seasonal basis. As it stands were are still in a position to advance in the CL as group winners in one of the toughest groups in the entire draw, and we are 2 points off the top in the league ten games in. Fear is the last thing I'm feeling right now.
Arsenals problems were there for all to see. At the end of the 18/19 season - they had 10 players 29 years or older (Cech, Ospina, Sokratis, Özil, Aubameyang, Koscielny, Liechsteiner, Mkhitaryan, Sokratis and Nacho)
They had Ramsey who wanted to leave - several players who werent good enough like Kolasinac, Welbeck, Iwobi, Mustafi, Chambers,Jenkinson, Suarez who was on loan
So they basically had Bellerin, Torreira, Elneny, Holding, Xhaka, Lacazette, Leno and Guendozi (who has other problems) who they could count on for more than 2-3 seasons - and the majority of them arent even particularly good.
Arsenal needed an entire new team - because they had bought so poorly over the last 3-4 seasons. I would not say Arsenals budget was so tight - they just used the Money poorly. Pepe has been a huge flop. £90 million for Torreira, Lacazette and Kolasinac combined - neither is good enough for the first team. £17 million for Perez, £35 million for Mustafi. Aubameyang at £56 million was of course a good deal - but he was 29 years old and was never going to be a long-term investment.
So they basically spent £270 million for a 29 year old World class striker and a bunch of decent players who were never good enough to be more than squad-players. That is awful
If Pogba is in the squad tonight my vote is changing to Ole Out.
It's his chance to show he is the main man and no one comes before the club.
It's his chance to show he is the main man and no one comes before the club.
Not that it makes any difference in the great scheme of things, but my Ole out view will be tested tonight if he: leaves Pogba out totally, and gets a result.
Pogba should never pull on a United shirt again.
Getting a result in Leipzig tonight would be a good achievement for any side. Do that tonight and I could well start to believe in where this club is heading.
Pogba should never pull on a United shirt again.
Getting a result in Leipzig tonight would be a good achievement for any side. Do that tonight and I could well start to believe in where this club is heading.
Tonight is one game and shouldn't affect whether he keeps his job.
If we continue to find it difficult to dominate smaller teams in the league and keep playing underdog, park the bus tactics against the big boys then he should be sacked.
I'm one of the least sentimental fans you'll find, and I have no time for Top Reds, but I think he's slowly progressing us. With an actual right winger, I think we'd see faster progress.
If we continue to find it difficult to dominate smaller teams in the league and keep playing underdog, park the bus tactics against the big boys then he should be sacked.
I'm one of the least sentimental fans you'll find, and I have no time for Top Reds, but I think he's slowly progressing us. With an actual right winger, I think we'd see faster progress.
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