Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[rotherham_red]

I'm confused, you think we weren't getting completely outplayed, outrun and outsmarted aside of this incident? I mean, they were creating bucket loads.

We have a serious issue in the team selection, in the transition from defence to attack, and in the running distance covered, together with our team press. If we were losing games because Maguire made mistakes in each one then sure. But that's not the case - we're generally outplayed all over the park and rely on individual creativity or chemistry in 1-2s to pick up goals. That's down to coaching, plain and simple.

It didn't happen much, if at all, last season. Even when we were at our lowest ebbs, we weren't giving up the chances that we are now. In fact, all of our underlying data and analytics had us around 2nd/3rd for defensive numbers across the board.

That tells me that it is either fitness-related or we've changed our system. And I doubt it's the latter.

Look, I'm not saying it's not Ole's fault. He's made his mistakes as well, particularly in the Spurs game, but the application of the players also needs to be called in to question.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

When a couple of players are underperforming then that’s on them. When an entire team looks shit, with the defence not having a clue, the midfield not having a clue, and the attack not having a clue, then that is on the coaching and management of a team.

We rely almost completely on individual brilliance and penalties at the moment. We are an incredibly poorly managed and coached team.

Or maybe we’re just incredibly ill-prepared for the season. We had just one pre-season game ahead of the start of the season where players were still not available. Tottenham for example have been preparing since august and had played 4 preseason games ahead of the leagues start. Add a ridiculous red card and that’s what can happen.

 

[rotherham_red]

With due respect to Ole, he has done a good job with the cultural reset, with embedding a mentality that the club is after, ie. an attacking fast paced one. He has cleared out players that don't fit this mould and now has a good squad to work with.

The issue for me is I think he's taken the squad as far as he is capable to do so, and for us to reach the next level , we need to bring in a coach with better pedigree and tactical nous.

That's fair enough.

Personally, I wouldn't confer much judgement on him until he's been given the chance to build his own team and squad.

The fact he was able to almost totally revamp the squad, and get 3rd, with just 4 signings in his first two transfer windows is a testament to his squad building capabilities, and he deserved much more of a shot at further undertaking that revamp this summer, than what had actually transpired. EDIT - 4 signings after losing Lukaku, Herrera and Sanchez and not getting a replacement in for any of them, might I add.

The frustrating thing is, we still actually aren't that far off at all. Just three (four, once Cavani goes) signings are needed. If he was backed and received his first choice targets in just 2 of those positions, then I could start to judge Ole much more than I am doing right now.

 

[VP89]

It didn't happen much, if at all, last season. Even when we were at our lowest ebbs, we weren't giving up the chances that we are now. In fact, all of our underlying data and analytics had us around 2nd/3rd for defensive numbers across the board.

That tells me that it is either fitness-related or we've changed our system. And I doubt it's the latter.

Look, I'm not saying it's not Ole's fault. He's made his mistakes as well, particularly in the Spurs game, but the application of the players also needs to be called in to question.

We ranked 12th in distance covered as a team last season, so we clearly weren't demonstrating ourselves as "the fittest side" in the league. I mean we weren't even in the top half of the distance covered table. The idea that this didn't happen much last season (us being outrun) is just not true. We were outplayed and outrun in a few games but I think you are extrapolating from the purple patch we had when Bruno arrived.

Last season we were defensively not bad at all, but this isnt the crux of my argument right now. It's that one of the many things Ole wanted to implement was a strong press and a hard working side, the most in the league in fact. He said this in multiple interviews and after the season ended we actually are in the bottom half of the table in this regard. I don't think he's implemented the press/fitness regime anyway near as well as it meant to be.

Moreover the issues we have from playing out from deeper areas is a chronic one, not limited to this season. He hasn't identified or fixed this either.

I also think his man management is poor - he chose the wrong captain, he rushed Pogba back from injury to play Rochdale, he's insistent on keeping Pogba on terrible form and shuns VDB to the bench and reportedly failed to inform Romero that Henderson's arrival will be iminent and he will drop to 3rd choice. He bizarrely dropped Romero in all 3 cup Semi Finals, when he earned a spot more than anyone in aiding the team get that far. This is before the supposed Bruno fall out.

Basically, there is a lot wrong with Ole's management. And it's sad to say because he's a sound guy and a club legend, but I'm trying to seperate "art" from "artist" here and just look at the work done from a coaching/management perspective.

 

[sammsky1]

He has improved the team on every quantitative measure?
Points
Both seasons he completed are quantitatively worse than his predecessor.
You can put in caveats and excuses but we are talking quantitively.

League Position
Can be a rank but this is Manchester United, self proclaimed biggest club in the world, and the only position we should remember is 1st.
Gap to 1st is another position and shows how far we are from where we want to be.
Apart from champions league qualification who cares where we finish if we don't win?
Ole has not improved on the rank in Jose's last season and we are further behind the top than ever.

Trophies
This is definitely not an argument in Ole's favour.
Unless we have fully transformed into Arsenal and are counting top 4 as a trophy?

Manager	Season	Points	Position	Points behind first	Trophies
Moyes	2013–14	64​	7​	22​
LVG	2014–15	70​	4​	17​
LVG	2015–16	66​	5​	15​	1​	FA Cup
Jose	2016–17	69​	6​	24​	2​	Europa, League Cup
Jose	2017–18	81​	2​	19​
Jose/Ole	2018–19	66​	6​	32​
Ole	2019–20	66​	3​	33​

whole load of time and effort NOT to prove your point. Way to go!

 

[Garethw]

Or maybe we’re just incredibly ill-prepared for the season. We had just one pre-season game ahead of the start of the season where players were still not available. Tottenham for example have been preparing since august and had played 4 preseason games ahead of the leagues start. Add a ridiculous red card and that’s what can happen.

You don’t take off your most productive player though. If it’s tactical reasons then it should have been Pogba and not Fernandes that came off. Pogba still doesn’t look anywhere close to being fit, which is understandable. So why did he stay on? None of it makes sense.

On a side note, the red card had absolutely nothing to do with that performance. We were Lucky not to concede 7 or 8 against Brighton the week before with 11 players on the pitch.

Solskjaer gets the plaudits when results are good. So he should be equally responsible when performances are bad.

 

[Sky1981]

I think you're being a tad bit hysterical re the boldened. Irrespective of what happens to Ole hereon, he's almost totally revamped the squad from the Frankenstein's monster that it was under Jose (who largely didn't bother clearing out the shit he inherited from LvG), and LvG (who turfed out perfectly good squad players in favour of the aforementioned shit). If the next person comes in, he will have a coherent squad that can be moulded to what he requires.

It is one of the youngest squads in the league and in Europe, with a front line that is a genuinely frightening prospect for any team that crosses its path. We also have a very strong, varied and flexible collection of midfielders. So much so, that you could arguably call it our strongest area. Our GK situation is also probably the best around (with the possible exception of Bayern) - you only have to look at how we were during that post-Schmeichel period or Chelsea right now, to see how much of a destabilising effect it can have on the whole team when the GK transition is bungled.

The areas which need resolution are the obvious ones of DM, CB, and RW and hopefully Ole will be able to rectify those positions next season, but if not, then you'd hope that the next man will be given that opportunity.

Also, SAF never won anything with THIS squad. Moyes had the same philosophy as what you are suggesting with that squad that SAF had, and look how that turned out. Just because the greatest manager of men and resources the game has ever seen could do something as remarkable, doesn't mean anyone else could. Also, what deadwood had been shifted under Jose? As far as I can remember, it was only Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger and Depay. That's it. Ole probably doubled that number of outgoings in his first summer alone. And with LvG, we know what he did, and shifting of the deadwood really wasn't it. Neither did Moyes. He actually made a point of keeping every player, and gave second chances to Nani and Rooney with 5 year contracts for both. The only manager who bucked that trend was Ole, and likely it was only because he had that 7 month settling in period before his first summer transfer window.

In fact, the reality is, every manager that has come in has actually sought to give every player a new chance. It's partly why the likes of Jones and Smalling stayed as long as they did. Every manager that is, until Ole. So I'm not sure where you're getting that from, tbh.

While I agree with you that we should ultimately go with the model that several of our competitors have, we right now, do not have the system in place, despite having the means to do so. If you want us to do go down the short-term coach route, then we'd need a stellar DoF and Administrator, who would ensure that there is a sense of continuity in the project. We don't have that, and until we do, we need to back the managers and ensure that their vision is brought forward on to the pitch.

As of today we already agreed that half of the squad are deadwoods.

If Ole is sacked tomorrow the first order of business would be clearing his deadwoods.

 

[PureCantona7]

Our forward line is too inconsistent for a title run. He would get around 80 points though.
Ole in charge of Liverpool will be easily 2nd with the present squad. If you are saying that Ole joined them when Klopp did then yes 6th is quite likely.

C'mon mate what a delusional thing to say, I still think Ole should be given time unless he gets a string of defeats. But his not that good, he'll easily get 2nd? If that was the case he should have got the F.A cup which Arteta did!
In Lampards first season he got into the final without transfers.

I back Ole because he made me believe we have better players than I thought, but at the same time we have to keep an open mind that maybe he isn't good enough for 1st, 2nd or even a repeated 3rd position.

 

[Tel074]

Cliche reply. LVG and Mourinho didn't do what I said we needed in a coach during their time here

A iron fist ? Two of the toughest coaches who are renowned for exactly that . It's been proven a iron fist doesn't work .

 

[bosnian_red]

As of today we already agreed that half of the squad are deadwoods.

If Ole is sacked tomorrow the first order of business would be clearing his deadwoods.

Thats what Ole has tried to do but the club has failed to do.

• Romero
• Dalot
• Jones
• Rojo
• Lingard
• Pereira
• Mata

We sold Smalling, managed to get rid of Sanchez on a free, but only managed to do loans for Dalot and Pereira. The rest are just bloating the squad with virtually 0 impact and couldn't even find loans. We just can't get rid of our players, and that's going to be the case whoever comes here.

 

[Mainoldo]

It was also bullshit though. He was never not making the starting line up.

Bull or not that’s what many believed should have happened.

Welcome back by the way

 

[Mainoldo]

We ranked 12th in distance covered as a team last season, so we clearly weren't demonstrating ourselves as "the fittest side" in the league. I mean we weren't even in the top half of the distance covered table. The idea that this didn't happen much last season (us being outrun) is just not true. We were outplayed and outrun in a few games but I think you are extrapolating from the purple patch we had when Bruno arrived.

Last season we were defensively not bad at all, but this isnt the crux of my argument right now. It's that one of the many things Ole wanted to implement was a strong press and a hard working side, the most in the league in fact. He said this in multiple interviews and after the season ended we actually are in the bottom half of the table in this regard. I don't think he's implemented the press/fitness regime anyway near as well as it meant to be.

Moreover the issues we have from playing out from deeper areas is a chronic one, not limited to this season. He hasn't identified or fixed this either.

I also think his man management is poor - he chose the wrong captain, he rushed Pogba back from injury to play Rochdale, he's insistent on keeping Pogba on terrible form and shuns VDB to the bench and reportedly failed to inform Romero that Henderson's arrival will be iminent and he will drop to 3rd choice. He bizarrely dropped Romero in all 3 cup Semi Finals, when he earned a spot more than anyone in aiding the team get that far. This is before the supposed Bruno fall out.

Basically, there is a lot wrong with Ole's management. And it's sad to say because he's a sound guy and a club legend, but I'm trying to seperate "art" from "artist" here and just look at the work done from a coaching/management perspective.

Cardiff fans told me. The guy fails to implement his promises. He said he needed his own players and when he got them they weren’t good enough. He later went on to say he never had the quality to implement what he needed to. Well he has a better set of quality players now and we still can’t see what he’s trying to implement.

 

[Greck]

Cardiff fans told me. The guy fails to implement his promises. He said he needed his own players and when he got them they weren’t good enough. He later went on to say he never had the quality to implement what he needed to. Well he has a better set of quality players now and we still can’t see what he’s trying to implement.

Sounds about right. Always about needing more in the transfer department. Might even end up more reliant on chequebook management than Jose

 

[Bastian]

Cardiff fans told me. The guy fails to implement his promises. He said he needed his own players and when he got them they weren’t good enough. He later went on to say he never had the quality to implement what he needed to. Well he has a better set of quality players now and we still can’t see what he’s trying to implement.

When he first came in he was praising the quality of the players and the team and talking about going back to attacking football. I can't help think he actually believed he could sustain most of the performances of the honeymoon period. Then reality set in and serious work on the training pitch was needed. He oversold and underdelivered but made out that most of it was down to not working hard enough and that come next season (last season) he'd have them properly fit and playing like a team that works harder than their opponents. That worked maybe only in the matches against better opposition when we sat deep and played on the counter. The goal posts are constantly changing.

In reality, he inherited a team that lacked leaders and was imbalanced. And he's a manager who isn't really a coach (by his own admission).

 

[Mainoldo]

Thats what Ole has tried to do but the club has failed to do.

• Romero
• Dalot
• Jones
• Rojo
• Lingard
• Pereira
• Mata

We sold Smalling, managed to get rid of Sanchez on a free, but only managed to do loans for Dalot and Pereira. The rest are just bloating the squad with virtually 0 impact and couldn't even find loans. We just can't get rid of our players, and that's going to be the case whoever comes here.

Under his leadership.. 3 of those players he gave new deals to. You couldn’t make it up.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

C'mon mate what a delusional thing to say, I still think Ole should be given time unless he gets a string of defeats. But his not that good, he'll easily get 2nd? If that was the case he should have got the F.A cup which Arteta did!
In Lampards first season he got into the final without transfers.

I back Ole because he made me believe we have better players than I thought, but at the same time we have to keep an open mind that maybe he isn't good enough for 1st, 2nd or even a repeated 3rd position.

Klopp had already created an amazing squad and coached them to a CL final last year. Considering the weak League last year, Ole would have gotten second with a well oiled machine that was Liverpool last season.

 

[ash_86]

 

[Withnail]

Bull or not that’s what many believed should have happened.

Welcome back by the way

Well yeah, people eh?

Thanks - I mostly steered clear of the United forum the past while.

 

[bosnian_red]

Under his leadership.. 3 of those players he gave new deals to. You couldn’t make it up.

Or was it (more likely) that the club njst extends players contracts regardless to "protect value", thinking they can sell. Its been happening for years.

 

[Greck]

Tbh that castle's article could easily have been paid for by Mourinho. Don't trust him from Jose's time here. Brown noser royale

 

[Withnail]

I've listened to this and there's not a huge amount in it and certainly nothing new. He was always Jose's man and has been negative on Ole from day 1.

I've listened and he's rehashed what was in the papers already and repeated his earlier contention that some of the senior players aren't happy with Solskjaer methods which I've not heard repeated elsewhere.

He also says if results don't pick up Solskjaer's position will become untenable and has a go at the Glazers/Woodward and reckons Poch isn't too keen on working with them.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Or was it (more likely) that the club njst extends players contracts regardless to "protect value", thinking they can sell. Its been happening for years.

Protect their value? Their new contracts are probably worth more than what we could sell them for so that doesn’t make much sense.

 

[bosnian_red]

Protect their value? Their new contracts are probably worth more than what we could sell them for so that doesn’t make much sense.

A lot of things we do don't make any sense, yet here we are. We've done it for years. How often do we just release players on a free? It almost never happens with us.

 

[rotherham_red]

Under his leadership.. 3 of those players he gave new deals to. You couldn’t make it up.

Smalling was given a new contract 2 days before Jose got the sack. The managers have about as much authority on those decisions as you do.

 

[Bastian]

Protect their value? Their new contracts are probably worth more than what we could sell them for so that doesn’t make much sense.

The club is run by banksters. It's a game of financials and it looks good on the books.

 

[Withnail]

The club is run by banksters. It's a game of financials and it looks good on the books.

Just another decision made for the wrong reasons.

 

[Foxbatt]

The more I see of how we play the more I am convinced he hasn't got a clue to implement anything sensible.
He doesn't look as if he believes in himself. If he doesn't believe in it how can you convince others?
He has got it all wrong. His pressing is not working because the players movements are all wrong. He doesn't know how to implement a press. It's not all the players are running. It's actually denial of space for the other team.
If he had top coaches who knows this he will get better if he listens to them.
It's obvious that if he can't explain to his players and get them to play in a coherent way what chance would he have to explain to Woodward?
Honestly I wouldn't have bought Sancho for over a 100million pounds either.
There are much more important positions that needed to be strengthened than buying a forward winger. He is too rigid in the way he gets us to play.
A better manager who has a vision would lift this team up hugely even with this current squad.

 

[R'hllor]

So they extended those contracts against his wishes, requests and demands, he was heavy against it and they told him to feck off and gave those players new contracts. Guess they did the same when Afro was sold (who is getting rid of deadwood then), they asked him feck all about contracts and selling players. Sure sure. Can imagine "do not extend contract to Jones, its waste of money, rather use those wages somewhere else" "Yea Ole...nah, thank you for your input but we really dont value your opinion so take a hike"

 

[Smores]

When he goes he'll be remembered as a decent appointment i think. I'm of the opinion that he isn't a great manager but he's done okay and helped us so he's certainly not a Moyes or anything.

It's partly why I'm keen for us to get the balance right between giving him a chance to succeed and waiting too long. I really don't want to see him drag us into 6th or worse and leave as a failure.

 

[Withnail]

The more I see of how we play the more I am convinced he hasn't got a clue to implement anything sensible.
He doesn't look as if he believes in himself. If he doesn't believe in it how can you convince others?
He has got it all wrong. His pressing is not working because the players movements are all wrong. He doesn't know how to implement a press. It's not all the players are running. It's actually denial of space for the other team.
If he had top coaches who knows this he will get better if he listens to them.
It's obvious that if he can't explain to his players and get them to play in a coherent way what chance would he have to explain to Woodward?
Honestly I wouldn't have bought Sancho for over a 100million pounds either.
There are much more important positions that needed to be strengthened than buying a forward winger. He is too rigid in the way he gets us to play.
A better manager who has a vision would lift this team up hugely even with this current squad.

We haven't played in a week and a half. Have you been rewatching old games?

 

[anant]

Fergie can’t use injuries as excuse for poor form ..after Man Utd lost back to back games in 11/12 season where we finished level with City with 89 points and lost out on Goal Difference.

But Ole can use injuries as an excuse to finish 33 points behind our bitterest enemies. Players getting injured is a crisis that only happen to Ole Gunnar Solskjaer and not to other managers.

The fact is even when all those players were available and with the invincible run (we used to mock Arse fans for exaggerating their 49 game invincible run but 14 games is a bigger trophy for Ole and Olesexuals) we couldn't do better than winning 18 league games out of 38 in a trophy-starved season. That in itself is an indictment on Ole, his managerial abilities and his coaching staff.

What are you even on about?

There's a thing called 'context'. You might not have heard of it, but it's quite useful while comparing any two scenarios. Like if you're comparing points total across two seasons, and stuff like that. If 3 of our more important players get injured, you have to realize that the manager is in some way handicapped - be it Ole, Klopp or De Boer.

And to your last point, who here compared our run with Arsenal's invincible run? Name one guy or go back to posting garbage on twitter.

Please don’t mention Pogba. When Fred and McTominay were flying.. threads about him not making the starting line up was peak.

You really think Pog wasn't going to make it to our starting XI when we were struggling to create enough chances?

 

[Withnail]

So they extended those contracts against his wishes, requests and demands, he was heavy against it and they told him to feck off and gave those players new contracts. Guess they did the same when Afro was sold (who is getting rid of deadwood then), they asked him feck all about contracts and selling players. Sure sure. Can imagine "do not extend contract to Jones, its waste of money, rather use those wages somewhere else" "Yea Ole...nah, thank you for your input but we really dont value your opinion so take a hike"

Isn't it more along the lines of the players is entering their final year and there isn't an offer they deem acceptable so the club renew the player's contract as they don't want them leaving on a free?

It's wrong-headed most of the time of course as we can't shift the players when we really need to.

EDIT: Ole was still caretaker when Jones was renewed so not sure that can be put on him in any case.

 

[Foxbatt]

We haven't played in a week and a half. Have you been rewatching old games?

Three games this season is more than enough.

 

[Foxbatt]

When he goes he'll be remembered as a decent appointment i think. I'm of the opinion that he isn't a great manager but he's done okay and helped us so he's certainly not a Moyes or anything.

It's partly why I'm keen for us to get the balance right between giving him a chance to succeed and waiting too long. I really don't want to see him drag us into 6th or worse and leave as a failure.

I think more than that. Moyes destroyed a team including the coaching set up. Ole repaired the damage that Jose did. But it's what it should have been and let him go at the end of that season without giving him the job permanently.

 

[Mainoldo]

Smalling was given a new contract 2 days before Jose got the sack. The managers have about as much authority on those decisions as you do.

I fully get that but Mata and Periera were both set to leave on a free right? So take Fellaini’s situation into consideration. We give the players a proposed contract renewal value. Whether we continue negations depends on how we value them. Remember Mourinho pushing for him to sign only for him to accept our contract on the last day?

So yes I’ll say your right but surely if you don’t want a player like Juan Mata. The club just lets him go.

 

[Withnail]

Three games this season is more than enough.

Oh ok, It just sounded like you'd been off doing research and were more convinced than ever before due to something you'd seen.

 

[R'hllor]

Isn't it more along the lines of the players is entering their final year and there isn't an offer they deem acceptable so the club renew the player's contract as they don't want them leaving on a free?

It's wrong-headed most of the time of course as we can't shift the players when we really need to.

EDIT: Ole was still caretaker when Jones was renewed so not sure that can be put on him in any case.

Nobody mentioned that when Fellaini was sold week before, it was Ole at the wheel, he knows whats United all about and Fellaini represents JM anti United way or when Ole was talking about pre-season, so lets stop with that nonsense and hiding behind caretaker position. Regarding players entering their final year, it was slam dunk for us to get rid of Jones, if Ole didnt want to see his contract extended, guess he would say so and if he did say and they offered him new contract against his advise/wish anyway, then oh boy. Also Jones was playing a bit that season if i remember correctly so its not like he was training with U12.

 

[AshRK]

As of today we already agreed that half of the squad are deadwoods.

If Ole is sacked tomorrow the first order of business would be clearing his deadwoods.

As much as we like to hate on Maguire and AWB, both are not deadwoods and are much better option to have than Darmian and Rojo

 

[BR7]

Civil war amongst fans, the glazers are getting what they want. It’s sad, the ole in fans can’t see the truth about ole and his limitations and the ole out fans (including me) have to be realistic, how far can the best manager take this squad? There are a couple of ole in fans who are defending the indefensible with inane comments and the ole out fans who need to understand what the options are and maybe ole is the best option at the moment..... let’s leave this thread alone for four weeks and catch up again

 

[VP89]

Nobody mentioned that when Fellaini was sold week before, it was Ole at the wheel, he knows whats United all about and Fellaini represents JM anti United way or when Ole was talking about pre-season, so lets stop with that nonsense and hiding behind caretaker position. Regarding players entering their final year, it was slam dunk for us to get rid of Jones, if Ole didnt want to see his contract extended, guess he would say so and if he did say and they offered him new contract against his advise/wish anyway, then oh boy. Also Jones was playing a bit that season if i remember correctly so its not like he was training with U12.

Quite sure it was reported that Ole was heavily consulted on transfers and general player related activities whilst being a caretaker manager.