Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[FatherWolff]

Jog on. Weren't multi accounts banned around here?

Have we won something of note to brag about and write home about? Has Ole became a better manager?

This charade will go on this season probably for last time, whilst we end up with another 200-300m "well spent" and another two season wasted - this one and the next one. I'm happy that you can brag with that 3rd place though.

I will. Jog on, to place without “fans” like you.
But why are you not answering the question? Where have you been? Why have you not been posting in the football forum since the Burnley loss? Why have you not posted a single positive note on our spring run? Think we all know the answer to that Enjoy!

 

[MattofManchester]

I will. Jog on, to place without “fans” like you.
But why are you not answering the question? Where have you been? Why have you not been posting in the football forum since the Burnley loss? Why have you not posted a single positive note on our spring run? Think we all know the answer to that Enjoy!

Your argument for what he said was "You haven't said anything since the Burnley loss". I wouldn't talk about not answering questions, mate.

 

[Enigma_87]

I will. Jog on, to place without “fans” like you.
But why are you not answering the question? Where have you been? Why have you not been posting in the football forum since the Burnley loss? Why have you not posted a single positive note on our spring run? Think we all know the answer to that Enjoy!

I haven't really posted after the two cup defeats either. Haven't really posted after Palace defeat too. Some have personal life you know and it's not entirely related to football forums. I don't need to give you any audits about that either.

What happened to your other account btw?

 

[tombombadil]

How about use the players they have properly like Flick, Poch, Kloop and many others do? How about when they are supported they don't buy dross like Lukaku, Lindelof, Fellaini, Maguire, Bissaka etc? How about not sticking to underperforming players like Rooney, Pogba, DDG?
Not all the teams do what City does that buys Pep new toys every 6 months. But all the teams that are better than us change managers. Ole has been here 2 years. He had time to asses the weaknesses, the first 6 months, time to address them, a whole season, and time to improve. The team is going backwards, no game plan, no man management, no results.

Easier said than done. Why do you think the rebuild takes years? It takes a long time to get rid of players and buy the players you want. As it is, we already have around 27 - 28 players for 25 slots in the premier league. Until then you have to make do with what you have. And again. We HAVE BEEN changing managers every 2 years. Do you see wonderful progress forwards every time we tear down the previous team and buy a new team only to choke on the second season instead of committing to buying more players? That's how we wound up with so many players but few of them are wanted by the current manager in the first place. It takes time. And there will be hits and misses. Which compounds things.

 

[pratyush_utd]

 

[Andycoleno9]

Owners who are here only and only because of money stick with incompetent and limited manager because of who they will lose money. What a paradox. But it is Man Utd these days.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

So after another 200m spent, we need to spend another 200m so that we can say Ole is backed?

Ancelotti spent as half as we did on Maguire to form an entire midfield in James, Allan and Doucouré, that looks well suited to the task of attacking a top 4 finish, yet we get Ole a free pass for buying 130m worth of defenders that ship 11 goals in 3 games and look all over the place, despite being around for an year to bed in?

Quality managers get to work with what they got and improve on what they got. Klopp was making CL finals and winning the league with players like Moreno, Klavan, Matip, Lovren, Karius, Lallana, Can, Origi - who would have been labelled donkeys around here and deemed deadwood blamed on the previous manager.

Ole was backed, don't get on that. For a someone who won feck all in his career as manager and still hasn't won feck all despite north of 200m spent, I'd say he received plenty of support from the board.

Players like Maguire, AWB, James will pretty much be labelled a deadwood for the next manager and so on. Do you consider 130m spent on Maguire and AWB to be well spent on this stage, to warrant giving him another 200m to play with?

I'm not saying Ole isn't backed at all, I'm saying that he isn't backed enough. Two different things. It's been obvious for everyone and anyone that we need a top quality RW. If he was backed enough, we'd have bought Sancho. We might still get Dembélé, but then we're back to my argument that a managers 3rd or 4th choice doesn't cut it in the long run.

To your example of Ancelotti, I counter with Pep. He's spent €274m on defenders (goalkeepers excluded) before this season, and was given another €113m this season to fix the defense, taking the bill up to €387m (!) on defenders alone. That's proper backing. Does Pep get it right? Who knows, but he hasn't sorted the defense out the fist few times he's tried. The owners don't stop backing him because he didn't get it right the first time. Or the second time. Or the third time, even.

The two defenders we've signed under Ole was praised a lot last year, with two obvious flaws (passing and pace) being highlighted as well. Aaron Wan Bissaka was touted as the next big thing, even for the national team by the Caf after his first couple of months here. Spider Wan and Wall Bassaka etc. Maguire is a good defender, but he's no Van Dijk. We all knew this before he even came here.
Does this change the fact that Ole should be backed more this window? Because he's spent €200m, we shouldn't back him anymore? I don't follow this logic at all. Sorry.

You can blame Ole. There are plenty of arguments that he's not good enough. I disagree, but I see the arguments from the "sack" side as well. We should never concede 6 goals to Tottenham. Or 3 goals to Crystal Palace. Or count on luck to beat Brighton. There are obvious flaws, and we need to improve a lot. I see this as well, and I'm sure most people do.

But letting Ole stay while not giving him enough money to progress further is the opposite of logical, and what ultimately led to Mourinhos meltdown as well. Either trust Ole for another while and give him the funds to succeed, or give up and hire someone else before the transfer window is closed. You can't do a mix of both. Because right now the board have not sacked Ole, but not backed him enough this window to succeed. Yet, here we are, discussing how spending big last summer should be used as an argument to not complain about spending this summer.

And please. Just please, stop comparing Ole and Klopp. If we sack Ole and hire Klopp, I'm all for it. Klopp is the best manager in world football. Ole is not. We all agree.
But the manager following Ole likely isn't as good as Klopp either, so if that's the standard we're hoping for, we're sacking every single manager after 1,5 season for the foreseeable future.

 

[saivet]

I was going to say Fulham but then I remembered Ole's previous stint of trying to rescue a club destined for relegation.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

So because we spent less than Chelsea, Man City, Spurs, Aston Villa then we have to accept the result of these 3 recent matches (even the win against Brighton, we probably could lose 7-3 if ball didnt hit the post 5 times). The board is disgrace, totally agree, but for this particular lost, It's all counted on Ole. Jezz ...

Well, no. That's not what I'm saying at all.

 

[pratyush_utd]

I'm not saying Ole isn't backed at all, I'm saying that he isn't backed enough. Two different things. It's been obvious for everyone and anyone that we need a top quality RW. If he was backed enough, we'd have bought Sancho. We might still get Dembélé, but then we're back to my argument that a managers 3rd or 4th choice doesn't cut it in the long run.

To your example of Ancelotti, I counter with Pep. He's spent €274m on defenders (goalkeepers excluded) before this season, and was given another €113m this season to fix the defense, taking the bill up to €387m (!) on defenders alone. That's proper backing. Does Pep get it right? Who knows, but he hasn't sorted the defense out the fist few times he's tried. The owners don't stop backing him because he didn't get it right the first time. Or the second time. Or the third time, even.

The two defenders we've signed under Ole was praised a lot last year, with two obvious flaws (pacing and pace) being highlighted as well. Aaron Wan Bissaka was touted as the next big thing, even for the national team by the Caf after his first couple of months here. Spider Wan and Wall Bassaka etc. Maguire is a good defender, but he's no Van Dijk. We all knew this before he even came here.
Does this change the fact that Ole should be backed more this window? Because he's spent €200m, we shouldn't back him anymore? I don't follow this logic at all. Sorry.

You can blame Ole. There are plenty of arguments that he's not good enough. I disagree, but I see the arguments from the "sack" side as well. We should never concede 6 goals to Tottenham. Or 3 goals to Crystal Palace. Or count on luck to beat Brighton. There are obvious flaws, and we need to improve a lot. I see this as well, and I'm sure most people do.

But letting Ole stay while not giving him enough money to progress further is the opposite of logical, and what ultimately led to Mourinhos meltdown as well. Either trust Ole for another while and give him the funds to succeed, or give up and hire someone else before the transfer window is closed. You can't do a mix of both. Because right now the board have not sacked Ole, but not backed him enough this window to succeed. Yet, here we are, discussing how spending big last summer should be used as an argument to not complain about spending this summer.

And please. Just please, stop comparing Ole and Klopp. If we sack Ole and hire Klopp, I'm all for it. Klopp is the best manager in world football. Ole is not. We all agree.
But the manager following Ole likely isn't as good as Klopp either, so if that's the standard we're hoping for, we're sacking every single manager after 1,5 season for the foreseeable future.

2 defender that Ole bought last year were praised by the same people who are praising him now.

Maguire was always a bang average CB. There was a thread early on complaining about AWB nonexistent attacking game. It's just who raised a voice was told they aren't proper fans because they don't support the club. It's not like these two players changed overnight.

 

[Vooon]

Sack or no sack. I still think the problems of this club runs WAY deeper than just Ole and his shortcomings. A better manager probably would get better results, though I kinda doubt he would get us higher than 3rd in the PL, but he'd still suffer under the omnishambles that is the way Man Utd is run and how we deal with transfers.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

2 defender that Ole bought last year were praised by the same people who are praising him now.

Maguire was always a bang average CB. There was a thread early on complaining about AWB nonexistent attacking game. It's just who raised a voice was told they aren't proper fans because they don't support the club. It's not like these two players changed overnight.

Disagree. Most people were happy with the signings, Wan Bissaka more than Maguire, but they were both considered to be big upgrades on what he had before. And they are upgrades on what we had. But more people have turned, and rightly so. Wan Bissaka isn't good enough going forward, and Maguire hasn't been good enough for the past three games. He was very, very solid last year, though. He really was. You can disagree, that's fine, but we were in fact quite solid defensively last season. There were no signs that we were going to concede 6 goals to Spurs or 11 in the 3 first games at all. If you saw that coming, I hope you placed a few bets, because you'd be a rich man.

But even if you did in fact see this coming, does that warrant not backing him further this window?

"Well, you obviously need some key players to finish the rebuild, but since you failed with your defensive signings last season, we're not giving you financial support to sign a proper RW or another CB. But we let you keep your job, so no one else can give it a proper go either."

 

[Mark Pawelek]

And the point of citing a post I made months ago is what?

Apologies. It was an accident. Somehow I ended up in the thread in mid-August and didn't notice the date. I'm not mining the thread looking for people to needle.

But since you're here, are you certain Ole isn't:

> "out of his depth"

because:

> "Out-gamed by the master of cynicism"

yesterday.

 

[FatherWolff]

Sack or no sack. I still think the problems of this club runs WAY deeper than just Ole and his shortcomings. A better manager probably would get better results, though I kinda doubt he would get us higher than 3rd in the PL, but he'd still suffer under the omnishambles that is the way Man Utd is run and how we deal with transfers.

Exactly! The club announced a rebuild. Wether Ole has been backed with a few expensive player or not is not the issue. This summer had nothing resembling a rebuild. Top three is how high this squad can go, who ever the manager is. And even top four will be a struggle with the strengthening of other teams. Signing Cavani, which have desperation all over it doesn’t change that. Sack Ole and bring in Poch, and the cycle continue.

 

[TsuWave]

Ole got the second highest league finish post Fergie. In his first full season in charge. I guess that counts for nothing?

Is your argument "he's been the second least shit,out of the shit managers we've had"? The guy finished third after a colossal implosion by Leicester. 33 points off the top. Ole the conqueror. feck sake

 

[led_scholes]

Easier said than done. Why do you think the rebuild takes years? It takes a long time to get rid of players and buy the players you want. As it is, we already have around 27 - 28 players for 25 slots in the premier league. Until then you have to make do with what you have. And again. We HAVE BEEN changing managers every 2 years. Do you see wonderful progress forwards every time we tear down the previous team and buy a new team only to choke on the second season instead of committing to buying more players? That's how we wound up with so many players but few of them are wanted by the current manager in the first place. It takes time. And there will be hits and misses. Which compounds things.

I don't see progress because non of the managers have performed as expected. We also lack planning and fail at the managers' recruitment, and the next manager it is always different than the previous one, thus making it more difficult for the next one. We went from SAF to Moyes, a defensive mid table manager, to LVG, a semi retired possession manager, to Jose, a former great counter attacking manager, to Ole, a more attacking manager with a relegation as his only result in an important league, instead of going from Saf to Jose/Ancelotti, from LVG to Kloop/Pep, from Jose to Zidane/Poch.

For that reason we usually allow our underperforming managers almost 2 years because we give them time, only for them to increase the damage through their incompetence.

A rebuild under correct management takes 1-1,5 years, meaning that after that period you see the results or the performances improve. In a failed rebuild you see the exact opposite like we have witnessed with LVG, Jose and now Ole.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm not saying Ole isn't backed at all, I'm saying that he isn't backed enough. Two different things. It's been obvious for everyone and anyone that we need a top quality RW. If he was backed enough, we'd have bought Sancho. We might still get Dembélé, but then we're back to my argument that a managers 3rd or 4th choice doesn't cut it in the long run.

You can't always have the best option for the long run and to land your top option for every position. You have to have back up options, it was what literally every manager is coping at any club.

To your example of Ancelotti, I counter with Pep. He's spent €274m on defenders (goalkeepers excluded) before this season, and was given another €113m this season to fix the defense, taking the bill up to €387m (!) on defenders alone. That's proper backing. Does Pep get it right? Who knows, but he hasn't sorted the defense out the fist few times he's tried. The owners don't stop backing him because he didn't get it right the first time. Or the second time. Or the third time, even.

Pep is a world class coach with world class credentials. Ole is a nobody. Those two doesn't compute. You can't throw hundreds of millions and fully back someone based on handful of games. I'd say giving him 200m is fair enough to work with. He hasn't won anything at any top level, and last year point tally was the same as the season before when we finished 6th. The performances didn't really change that much - we had good runs, we had bad runs it's the same thing pretty much.

The two defenders we've signed under Ole was praised a lot last year, with two obvious flaws (pacing and pace) being highlighted as well. Aaron Wan Bissaka was touted as the next big thing, even for the national team by the Caf after his first couple of months here. Spider Wan and Wall Bassaka etc. Maguire is a good defender, but he's no Van Dijk. We all knew this before he even came here.
Does this change the fact that Ole should be backed more this window? Because he's spent €200m, we shouldn't back him anymore? I don't follow this logic at all. Sorry.

Same can be said about many of LvG, Mourinho and even Fellaini at some point. All started well, all regressed, all became deadwood. AWB and Maguire deficiencies were well known and noted as you said. Both were never close to their price tag. Both are arguably not at their best in a high line and also attacking through the wing, so whilst they have done something right they most probably would be deemed not good enough for the next manager if he decides to go with a different formation/plan. We see that often in the last 7 years and 4 managers.

You can blame Ole. There are plenty of arguments that he's not good enough. I disagree, but I see the arguments from the "sack" side as well. We should never concede 6 goals to Tottenham. Or 3 goals to Crystal Palace. Or count on luck to beat Brighton. There are obvious flaws, and we need to improve a lot. I see this as well, and I'm sure most people do.

But letting Ole stay while not giving him enough money to progress further is the opposite of logical, and what ultimately led to Mourinhos meltdown as well. Either trust Ole for another while and give him the funds to succeed, or give up and hire someone else before the transfer window is closed. You can't do a mix of both. Because right now the board have not sacked Ole, but not backed him enough this window to succeed. Yet, here we are, discussing how spending big last summer should be used as an argument to not complain about spending this summer.

Bringing Sancho would have had zero impact on us shipping 11 goals in 3 games and our defence being in the worst state since the PL era. If you want to go ahead with the excuses - go on, but to me this just prolongs the agony. Not backing Jose is one thing, not backing Ole is another in my books. One is with proven resume and you have bigger indication if you can get some of that money back in return. No serious investor will hand money to every average Joe. Ole makes no exception.

And please. Just please, stop comparing Ole and Klopp. If we sack Ole and hire Klopp, I'm all for it. Klopp is the best manager in world football. Ole is not. We all agree.
But the manager following Ole likely isn't as good as Klopp either, so if that's the standard we're hoping for, we're sacking every single manager after 1,5 season for the foreseeable future.

Ole isn't good at managing a PL side, let alone comparable to the one that would likely succeed him.

As for the bolded part - it's what top clubs do. When you manage a top club and get to spend hundreds of millions you have to deliver on short notice. There's no two ways about it. Only at United you see this leeway in the last 7 years and this is one of the main reasons we're at this state.

If Bayern didn't sack Kovac last season, most likely they wouldn't have won CL and BL. This is how top clubs operate. In the meantime - for the first time in 20 odd years we finish 2 consecutive seasons without a silverware.

 

[BR7]

And you called me a troll Zen haha, the unravelling of the ole supporters in one post

 

[VojjE]

This season isn't like any other season before it. I don't understand why people expect things to just be like normal and are shocked when they aren't. I think it's pretty evident when United, Liverpool and City get rinsed in huge blowouts and Everton are top of the table with Villa second that this season is going to be chaotic. Usually the league is pretty much in sync in their preparations/match fitness/players back from holidays. That won't be a thing this season, and I expect that this will show later on. Some teams will pick up drastically in form, others will fade. Ole shouldn't be subject to kneejerk reactions from the board based on results with such big factors beyond his control. If they want to sack him then they need to merit it.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

You can't always have the best option for the long run and to land your top option for every position. You have to have back up options, it was what literally every manager is coping at any club.
If Bayern didn't sack Kovac last season, most likely they wouldn't have won CL and BL. This is how top clubs operate. In the meantime - for the first time in 20 odd years we finish 2 consecutive seasons without a silverware.

No, but you can land the top option when he's available, wants to come, and you really have no one else competing for his signature.

Pep is a world class coach with world class credentials. Ole is a nobody. Those two doesn't compute. You can't throw hundreds of millions and fully back someone based on handful of games. I'd say giving him 200m is fair enough to work with. He hasn't won anything at any top level, and last year point tally was the same as the season before when we finished 6th. The performances didn't really change that much - we had good runs, we had bad runs it's the same thing pretty much.

As I've said, it can absolutely be argued that Ole should be sacked. But then you'd have to do it before the transfer window is closed. Keeping him, and not financially backing him, is just setting him up for failure on purpose.

Same can be said about many of LvG, Mourinho and even Fellaini at some point. All started well, all regressed, all became deadwood. AWB and Maguire deficiencies were well known and noted as you said. Both were never close to their price tag. Both are arguably not at their best in a high line and also attacking through the wing, so whilst they have done something right they most probably would be deemed not good enough for the next manager if he decides to go with a different formation/plan. We see that often in the last 7 years and 4 managers.

Sure. I still don't get why he isn't backed further in this window, though. Sack him or back him. Don't keep him around and handcuff him.

Bringing Sancho would have had zero impact on us shipping 11 goals in 3 games and our defence being in the worst state since the PL era. If you want to go ahead with the excuses - go on, but to me this just prolongs the agony. Not backing Jose is one thing, not backing Ole is another in my books. One is with proven resume and you have bigger indication if you can get some of that money back in return. No serious investor will hand money to every average Joe. Ole makes no exception.

Bringing in Sancho could've absolutely had an impact on us shipping 11 goals in 3 games. We could've been more dominant offensively, forcing teams to set up differently. Us having a better offense force other teams to set up more defensively.

Ole isn't good at managing a PL side, let alone comparable to the one that would likely succeed him.

As for the bolded part - it's what top clubs do. When you manage a top club and get to spend hundreds of millions you have to deliver on short notice. There's no two ways about it. Only at United you see this leeway in the last 7 years and this is one of the main reasons we're at this state.

They do. But not on the day the transfer window closes after three games, with barely any financial backing at all in said window.
I can say it once more, if I wasn't clear the previous times. Keep him and back him, or sack him with enough times left in the transfer window for the new guy to bring in his own inevitable "deadwood".
There's no way you can keep him and not back him. Which is what we're doing in this window, as we did with José.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

We lost in embarrassing fashion and then the manager of Manchester United decided to disconnect himself from the club. He should have been sacked that same day.

As embarassing as losing 6-1 at home to the shitspurs?

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I am shocked how anyone could think Jose should have been backed longer! He should have never been hired in the first place

and yet he has been the best we have had since SAF. At least he stood up to Ed in his own way

 

[Enigma_87]

No, but you can land the top option when he's available, wants to come, and you really have no one else competing for his signature.

It depends, really. 120m is a lot of money. We see players like Dembele fail to live up to those astronomical figures and the market is hugely inflated for players on big contracts that are not yet established players. We saw the same with Joao Felix and numerous other examples. I like Sancho, but contrary to many I'm not sure he has lived up to the fee Dortmund are asking for.

Besides there are loads of players that can improve us, especially for that RW spot. Banking on only one option makes no sense and we're in that mess partly for that too.

As I've said, it can absolutely be argued that Ole should be sacked. But then you'd have to do it before the transfer window is closed. Keeping him, and not financially backing him, is just setting him up for failure on purpose.

Sure. I still don't get why he isn't backed further in this window, though. Sack him or back him. Don't keep him around and handcuff him.

I would've sacked him in season 1, let alone waiting 2.5 years. Of course I agree with these.

Still if the board is "experimenting" with his appointment, considering he has no viable credentials for the job it makes sense to earn his money and so far I really haven't seen him to warrant another huge investment. With the current crop of players we comfortably have top 4 talent.

Bringing in Sancho could've absolutely had an impact on us shipping 11 goals in 3 games. We could've been more dominant offensively, forcing teams to set up differently. Us having a better offense force other teams to set up more defensively.

On paper I'm pretty sure the opposition teams would set up the same way. We are playing Greenwood (another exciting youngster with goals to his name from last year), Rashford and Martial as front three. Opposition teams are well aware of their qualities and if we have Sancho instead of Greenwood I pretty much doubt they would've changed their approach. It's basically one for one replacement on our side and also as I said Sancho so far hasn't really proven to be a superstar yet. He would also need time to adjust to the league, adjust to the new team, etc.

They do. But not on the day the transfer window closes after three games, with barely any financial backing at all in said window.
I can say it once more, if I wasn't clear the previous times. Keep him and back him, or sack him with enough times left in the transfer window for the new guy to bring in his own inevitable "deadwood".
There's no way you can keep him and not back him. Which is what we're doing in this window, as we did with José.

Yeah, no second thought on that one. We're masters of wasting time and resources, so no surprises there.

 

[Random Task]

Apologies. It was an accident. Somehow I ended up in the thread in mid-August and didn't notice the date. I'm not mining the thread looking for people to needle.

But since you're here, are you certain Ole isn't:

> "out of his depth"

because:

> "Out-gamed by the master of cynicism"

yesterday.

That's happened to me many times

I made that post during a period where our club was doing incredibly well in the league. We were on a lengthy unbeaten run, beating several top teams (including Spurs) in the process, leading me to believe the club was moving forward. We had a midfield that rivalled the best in the league, a defence that had the best record in the league despite rumours they were shite, and a young front line full of world-class talent. But it would seem we've gone backwards since then. Is Ole the problem? Possibly. Is the upper-tier management the problem? Without a shadow of a doubt. We could sack Ole tomorrow and replace him with whoever you want, but the problems will not disappear until our parasitic owners have gone and their puppet Woodward with them. In my opinion.

Quick query: was Jose 'the master of cynism' when his Spurs side lost to 'out of his depth' Ole's United towards the end of last season?

 

[starman]

Me, meet a massively deluded clown who thinks a man that relegated Cardiff, had them in freefall in the Championship and didn't set the Norwegian league on fire is going to get us back to the top, just because he used to play for us.

You are clueless, you flipflop just like that, at least stick to your convictions than i might respect you more

As a prominent force for Ole not being good enough to be the manager of Manchester United on this forum for some time many months ago, i feel like i need to step in here and just admit that I got it wrong. In my mind I never saw him as being good enough, and the constant playing of awful players and results and performances on the pitch seemed as good as evidence as any, topped off with his past record, or almost lack thereof.

I was definitely in the camp of, get Pochettino in as soon as possible, and yes I still think Pochettino is a good option for us. However, it is impossible to ignore how well Ole has pulled this back, it looked at one point things may be lost and I think a lot of the bickering on this forum showed he had a lot of supporters doubting him, myself included, but things have looked so up since those bleak months that to get rid of him come the end of the season would be a tragedy, I mean I remember saying we were closer to the relegation zone at one point than we were to a top 4 finish, and yet now we may genuinely be in contention for 3rd place, which, given everything that has happened this season, would be phenomenal.

We've seen performances improve rapidly, squad harmony seemingly through the roof, young talented players of the academy shining, results coming in; and not the boring 1-0 kind, but multiple goals and attractive football kind, inaffective players like Lingard finally being dropped for extended periods of time. I always did hope that he would prove me wrong and I am so happy that he has done so up to this point. Long may it continue, let's have a good summer of selling some poor players, and bringing in some good talented young players, and the future of this club is very bright I think.

 

[tombombadil]

Is your argument "he's been the second least shit,out of the shit managers we've had"? The guy finished third after a colossal implosion by Leicester. 33 points off the top. Ole the conqueror. feck sake

Nope. I'm trying to advocate for less knee jerk reactions.

 

[tombombadil]

I don't see progress because non of the managers have performed as expected. We also lack planning and fail at the managers' recruitment, and the next manager it is always different than the previous one, thus making it more difficult for the next one. We went from SAF to Moyes, a defensive mid table manager, to LVG, a semi retired possession manager, to Jose, a former great counter attacking manager, to Ole, a more attacking manager with a relegation as his only result in an important league, instead of going from Saf to Jose/Ancelotti, from LVG to Kloop/Pep, from Jose to Zidane/Poch.

For that reason we usually allow our underperforming managers almost 2 years because we give them time, only for them to increase the damage through their incompetence.

A rebuild under correct management takes 1-1,5 years, meaning that after that period you see the results or the performances improve. In a failed rebuild you see the exact opposite like we have witnessed with LVG, Jose and now Ole.

Good. So we both can at least agree that problems on top are creating problems below at middle management.

And your solution is to give the managers even less time and rotate even more managers?

 

[Skåre Willoch]

@Enigma_87

Sorry, can't be bothered with the quote-bonanza.

But, if I understand what you're saying, you agree that sacking Ole now is wrong, and that he should've been backed further when it was decided to keep him?
Whether or not we should've sacked him a month ago is a different discussion to sacking him right now, yes?

Also, I don't know what more Sancho has to do to be considered a superstar. Have you seen the damage he's been dealing for the past two years? Greenwood is not even a proper RW, so it's hardly a like-for-like replacement.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87

Sorry, can't be bothered with the quote-bonanza.

But, if I understand what you're saying, you agree that sacking Ole now is wrong, and that he should've been backed further when it was decided to keep him?
Whether or not we should've sacked him a month ago is a different discussion to sacking him right now, yes?

Also, I don't know what more Sancho has to do to be considered a superstar. Have you seen the damage he's been dealing for the past two years? Greenwood is not even a proper RW, so it's hardly a like-for-like replacement.

He should be sacked long ago, but that doesn't matter now. As long we keep this experiment going we're going to fall back even more behind. If he's not sacked now, we will waste not only this season, but perhaps next one too..

As for Sancho - spending north of 100m hasn't really worked well for Barca either, did it? I'm saying that Sancho is not a finished article and there is risk involved considering the price tag. Imagine he flopped the same as Dembele did for Barca - you just don't go spent big money like that.

There are loads of players that are below 100m that can upgrade us, that are natural RW. Putting all eggs in one basket is really what creates many of our problems in the last 7 years.

If you don't sack Ole now and we again fail this season, the writings are on the wall already, you will have another caretaker, another manager to waste another season to get familiar with the team and so forth. So if you are up for another 2 years of mess, you can back him up all you like.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

He should be sacked long ago, but that doesn't matter now. As long we keep this experiment going we're going to fall back even more behind. If he's not sacked now, we will waste not only this season, but perhaps next one too..

As for Sancho - spending north of 100m hasn't really worked well for Barca either, did it? I'm saying that Sancho is not a finished article and there is risk involved considering the price tag. Imagine he flopped the same as Dembele did for Barca - you just don't go spent big money like that.

There are loads of players that are below 100m that can upgrade us, that are natural RW. Putting all eggs in one basket is really what creates many of our problems in the last 7 years.

If you don't sack Ole now and we again fail this season, the writings are on the wall already, you will have another caretaker, another manager to waste another season to get familiar with the team and so forth. So if you are up for another 2 years of mess, you can back him up all you like.

I wholeheartedly disagree with everything you write here. And I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.

 

[led_scholes]

Good. So we both can at least agree that problems on top are creating problems below at middle management.

And your solution is to give the managers even less time and rotate even more managers?

No, my solution would be the top to change (Woodward) so we can have a better success with appointing managers. Even well run teams change managers every few years. The difference is that every now and then they appoint a suitable manager. We have failed with all of our appointments. Woodward's failure doesn't mean that Ole or Moyes or Solari or Kovac or Setien or Hughes or Scolari etc would have been successful under different circumstances and if they had stayed more. Rodgers made Lpool a PL contender after 5 years. But he was unable to achieve more. If Lpool were still supporting him, they would be around top 6 for sure. But nothing would compare to what they have achieved after firing him and appointing a manager with steady progress. After 2 years, and after spending more than most of the teams, we have been outplayed by 3 teams, and we were lucky not to lose 5-2 vs Brighton. He has failed miserably as he did with Cardiff.

 

[Foxbatt]

It is idiotic to think that one of the world's biggest club is being coached by someone who has never managed or coached at this level. Yes people talk about Pep and Zidane but they both have been assistants at Barca and Real. Ole was only at United and not even as the Assistant of SAF. Even that would not be enough as we have seen Brian Kidd, Mike Phelan and even Carlos Quiroz fail as managers. A good manager knows to get good assistants or coaching staff. Ole has not got either.
One and half seasons is enough to realise if there is potential in success or not.
Maguire may be a good defender in a low defence line. He is not a bad player as some have made him out to be. I am sure that is why Jose wanted him. But in a high defence line he is a huge liability.
Good managers know how to get the best out of their players and have a set way to get the players to play. We do not. We are a bunch of brilliant and good players who win games on their own brilliance.
I am sure that we would not have scored the first goal Villa scored against Liverpool. Our players would try to score on their own instead of passing to a team mate in that case. It is not the win or loss. It is the way we play. We have no structure in our playing.

Yes the Board and Woodward are also to blame but they do not coach or have tactics for the team on the pitch. It is the entire responsibility of the Manager. This squad is individually much better than the way we play now. Better coaching and better tactics would get much better. Individual errors come because it is not being done or taught in training. Look at the set pieces of other teams. Ours seem to be a high one for Maguire to head it over the bar. Other teams can vary it as much as they want and they have been very successful with it.
No he has to go for us to get close to winning any trophies. Whether it is now or late.
United as always dither and then would find no good managers available and would try to appoint someone not competent at the last minute.

 

[Mark Pawelek]

I've just been nasty to Ole. So a few points in his defense

He should be sacked long ago, but that doesn't matter now. As long we keep this experiment going we're going to fall back even more behind. If he's not sacked now, we will waste not only this season, but perhaps next one too..

No. We were falling behind under Moyes, LVG and Mourinho. Signing squad players for too much (Rojo, Darmian), and paying crazy money for squad quality players (Fred, ...), signing unsuitable players who didn't want to be here (Di Maria, Sanchez), and signing has-beens.

Half the issue is getting to grips, and equipping ourselves with a 25-man squad able to compete with the best. They're doing better here. I'm happier with Ole than any of the 3 who preceded him.

The other half of the issue is coaching and match preparation. The team were woefully unprepared against Spurs. For example: you should know when a ref allows quick free-kicks. be absolutely prepared to defend against them. Because, if there's one coach who knows it'll be Mourinho.

As for Sancho - spending north of 100m hasn't really worked well for Barca either, did it? I'm saying that Sancho is not a finished article and there is risk involved considering the price tag. Imagine he flopped the same as Dembele did for Barca - you just don't go spent big money like that.

There are loads of players that are below 100m that can upgrade us, that are natural RW. Putting all eggs in one basket is really what creates many of our problems in the last 7 years.

Totally agree with your 2nd point. Signing magic players for big fees is hit and miss. (Pogba, Maguire). Too hit and miss for me. There are only about 2 or 3 magic players worldwide.

If you don't sack Ole now and we again fail this season, the writings are on the wall already, you will have another caretaker, another manager to waste another season to get familiar with the team and so forth. So if you are up for another 2 years of mess, you can back him up all you like.

Ole is the board's 4th manager. They should've got it right first time. Their first appointment should've been director of football. The DoF should've been in charge of signing the first team coach. What makes you think this board will get it right 5th time? An Ole replacement needs to

1. not sack all your squad to replace them with his own picks
2. play a style of football in the United Way,
3. have flawless, state of the art, match preparation.

Every Ole critic should be prepared to tell us who, they want to replace Ole with. I'm losing confidence in Ole over (3) above. I'd not take Bielsa (he's 65 now). Prefer one of his acolytes (Pouch?).

 

[Dec9003]

I’ve backed him all the way but even I’m fed up now, time to go. He’s done some good things, I think we all like the front three for example. It’s time now though to get someone like a Poch who despite me having reservations he does know how to improve players.
It’s a shame the way it’s gone with Ole but it’s all to reminiscent of the end of Jose’s time where it got toxic and it became a matter of when not if he went.

 

[romufc]

He’s done some good things, I think we all like the front three for example. It’s time now though to get someone like a Poch who despite me having reservations he does know how to improve players.

I know we all think Poch and because he is new shiny toy, alot of people call for his name.

Look at his record against the big 6.

We all criticise Ole for how he achieved 3rd place, whereas we don't look at how Spurs got to the UCL, with alot of luck.

He is as stubborn as Ole.

 

[Mickson]

This is some character assassination from Michael Cox on Solskjaer.


I completely agree with him. Ole is out of his depth, and it's time to move for Pochettino. This isn't really a hard choice. He will do well with this squad.

 

[Roane]

I think Ole has done a fantastic job in changing the mood at UTD but I so think he is out of his depth as manager/coach.

My view is based purely on how we are as a team on the field of play, not the behind the scenes stuff he has done admirably imo, and how I see other "lesser" teams performing.

I don't also agree with the stick our defenders get in our current style of play. Put simply I think our defenders are always under pressure. Twofold imo.

Firstly we have a keeper who is a fantastic shot stopper but imo doesn't control his area. This puts defenders at sixes and sevens and is a trust issue I feel.

Secondly we simply don't hold the ball in MF or up front and opposition's seem to walk through us putting defenders under constant pressure. Pogba in a 2 with Matic is a big problem and that's just the start.

I see teams like BHA and leeds who on paper do not have the talent we have but have a style and structure they adhere to. We simply don't. We want wingers who can cross the ball or MF who can put in a defense splitting pass however we have no movement in to the opposition a box. Our forwards are static waiting for ball to feet so they can run. Rashford goal against BHA was fantastic but there has to be a plan B where he is in the box waiting for a cross too.

I feel a lot of this is down to coaching and Ole as a striker who had good movement should have imparted that knowledge to our forwards but doesn't seem to have done so.

We look panicky in most games and don't hold the ball and control parts of the game. When a goal down SAF would put on striker after striker as losing by 1 or 7 is simply 3 points. Ole has often put on a MF or defender.

I think Ole has gone as far as he can. We have a better sense of what we need to do and imo on paper we have a very good squad. Now we need a manager who can get the best out of these and with the odd addition can make us competitive again. End position is not as key as points for me. I'd rather be 5th with 80 points than 3rd with 66.

 

[Foxbatt]

I know we all think Poch and because he is new shiny toy, alot of people call for his name.

Look at his record against the big 6.

We all criticise Ole for how he achieved 3rd place, whereas we don't look at how Spurs got to the UCL, with alot of luck.

He is as stubborn as Ole.

Luck plays a very important part in any success. Without luck you win nothing. Poch is stubborn I agree and he is not my favourite either. But you have to question Ole on his transfers and his way of playing. Why has he not given Smalling a chance with Maguire? Yes he is not the best but so far he has shown he is better than Lindelof and kamikaze Bailly. Why spend money of forwards when we already have enough? Defence needs sorting out and has been for a while now. Why get a slow coach like Maguire and then play a high defence line with someone like Lindelof?
If AWB is not going forward then do not make him go forward or coach him how to go forward. If he is refusing to listen then drop him.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

How on earth does he still have the job? Should have been fired after the game!
Not wait for the season to be over and us being out of all cups and in 7th.

 

[romufc]

Luck plays a very important part in any success. Without luck you win nothing. Poch is stubborn I agree and he is not my favourite either. But you have to question Ole on his transfers and his way of playing. Why has he not given Smalling a chance with Maguire? Yes he is not the best but so far he has shown he is better than Lindelof and kamikaze Bailly. Why spend money of forwards when we already have enough? Defence needs sorting out and has been for a while now. Why get a slow coach like Maguire and then play a high defence line with someone like Lindelof?
If AWB is not going forward then do not make him go forward or coach him how to go forward. If he is refusing to listen then drop him.

I know it does, I am saying changing the manager might not mean changes in fortune, short term yes but long term?

I agree with you, Ole has too many limitations, when you have such poor tactical ability, why insist with players that are not performing? Show some mental and drop Maguire and Pogba.