Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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Could be a non-compete clause on the 12mil termination payout he received. If I were him, I'd sit on my pile of money until exactly the right job opens up. Same goes for Allegri...although Dancing With The Stars seems a bit much.
He's already spent over 100 million on players. If he gets the signings he wants this summer he should be winning the title if he's up to the job. I don't understand why he's just allowed to challenge and that'll be good enough?
There is nothing wrong with this. He's simply telling them that they are unnecessarily overpassing. Under Gaal we failed because he was too obsessed with safety first... overpassing and not shooting enough.
You can't have them doing their own thing. They play to the managers instructions.
You can't have them doing their own thing. They play to the managers instructions.
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Have you ever considered the prospect that you might be a moron
Have you ever considered the prospect that you might be a moron
When do you expect Ole to be capable of winning a title? It's been seven years since our last and counting. All I'm saying is if he gets the players he needs this summer, on top of already spending over 100m, he will need to properly challenge for the title or win it. Most United fans expected Jose to win it in his second season here, are we to lower expectations just because it's Ole in charge or is he capable of delivering top honours? Maybe I am a moron for thinking that, but feck it. As it currently stands though, I wouldn't expect that.
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Nope not a moron, in fact you're a patient man for even responding to that insult cordially.
We have to play much better, I mean much better if we are to challenge for the title. Our current form is similar to Newcastle's. Then in the second half of the season we'll go on an unbeaten run.
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Perhaps the expectations fans like you put on Mourinho to win a league with that squad were a tad unrealistic? Ever consider that?
it’s so easy to make flippant statements and petulant demands without substantiation or context, so I’m asking how you Or other OleOut crew in this thread would do it.
add sancho to our squad and then put it side by side to Liverpool and City. You can also add our 2008 team as that’s also a good barometer on what a great team looks like.
Now explain how that squad gets 90 points this season to beat City and Liverpool. Bear in mind that Klopp and Pep have been with their squads at least 3 years more than OGS. Add as many phrases like ‘patterns of play’, ‘progressive movement’ and ‘coaching’ and other hipster jargon as you like, but I’d like to know how it’s possible.
You are not taking into consideration the most important aspect of the whole thing.
The coach. Top coaches win with decent players plus one or two good players.
Klopp has certainly done that more than a couple of times. Yes Pep has only won with great players but he still has won a lot. Jose won with players no one mostly knew about at Porto and again has won against all odds in Milan too.
Ole has done nothing so far. They have their track record just like SAF had at Aberdeen. Ole has nothing to fall back on as he has no track record of anything of significant as a manager/coach.
The coach. Top coaches win with decent players plus one or two good players.
Klopp has certainly done that more than a couple of times. Yes Pep has only won with great players but he still has won a lot. Jose won with players no one mostly knew about at Porto and again has won against all odds in Milan too.
Ole has done nothing so far. They have their track record just like SAF had at Aberdeen. Ole has nothing to fall back on as he has no track record of anything of significant as a manager/coach.
Yeah, I mean, it’s not like we’ve ever seen Martial, Mason, Rash, Bruno and Pogba every have neat one-touch interchanges to create space and lovely goals, eh?
Perspective! We’ve scored any number of nice goals in the back half of the last season. At one time, everyone raved about our front four being among the top 2/3 of the league (some argued it was the best). The difference for us is that behind our top 5 (named above) we have a void in quality that led to them being horribly overplayed. Our front 3 is also younger than most and therefore more prone to this.
Whether Ole will ever win us the league if backed fully, I don’t know. But I do think it’s safe to say that no manager will, with this squad. When given just one improvement in our biggest issue area (Bruno), he delivered the best run of form we’ve had since well into the Fergie years. I don’t think a defeat to Palace undoes all of that.
And I do believe it’s time to drop the “he doesn’t do tactics” spiel and that “he’s so naive it’s easy to beat him” theme. If that held, Pep, Klopp, Pooh, Jose and the likes would manage a league win over him all the time. Some of those have none while others have just one. Not too bad, surely?
Sacking Ole won’t solve anything. Unless we invest in building a good squad, we’ll forever be yo-yoing on form based on the fitness and form levels of our “first choice 11”.
The gamble in OGS appointment is that Ole falls back on his unique knowledge of club culture and the knowledge he gained from SAF for many years. The hope is he can use his personal insights, while learning on the job to deliver incremental progress, eventually ending in glory.
We got to that gamble because we tried 3 better experienced managers, who all failed to please the fans or deliver minimum financial expectations.
you can disagree with the gamble, but it’s extremely disingenuous to pretend it doesn’t exist, or to keep changing the goalposts upon which he was appointed, or to belittle or deny his achievements so far.
Lucky for OGS, the vast majority of match going fans have bought into his appointment so OleOUT will only ever be annoying social media noise.
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Just have a look at Liverpools "great team" through the eyes of the caf (or pretty much everyone bar Liverpool fans) at the time Klopp got the respective players:
Salah - Chelsea reject, decent at Roma, not great, decent
Allison - good Serie A keeper, upgrade on Karius at least, also overpriced
Mane - decent at a poor Southampton
Van Dijk - good at a slightly better Southampton, overpriced
Fabinho - donkey, not good enough for United when we were linked
Firmino - no goals, was more of a 10 at his former club, also donkey
Milner - donkey
Henderson - donkey, also poor man's Gerrard
Robertson - relegated with Hull
Pretty much none of the above (except maybe VvD, Allison; Mane at a stretch) were seen as world beaters before Klopp got to work with them. Now they're "such a great team". Yeah, that's what a good manager does. And he does it by means of ‘patterns of play’, ‘progressive movement’ and ‘coaching’ and other hipster jargon.
United on the other hand seem to be a pretty great team already, as apparently only 108m Jadon Sancho is able to improve our RW (over, lets see... no one?). Just like last year only 80m Harry Maguire was an upgrade on our CBs.
Or at least those are Ole's targets. No one forces him to go for those players over cheaper options to improve the overall squad. It's his decision, as apparently he needs world beaters in every position in order to compete. You know who had a similar approach? Moyes. Chasing shiny names like Fabregas and Bale instead of building a good overall squad. A squad of maybe "lesser" players that he could improve. IF he could, which is questionable.
So to answer your question how our squad gets to 90 points to compete: a manager who improves players who don't cost a fortune already would at least be a start.
Most managers can get talented youngsters like Martial, Rashford, Sancho to perform, it's the managers who get a tune out of the Milners, Hendersons, Lingards who we should aspire to.
All fair points mate but Don't insult Milner and Henderson by clubbing them with Lingard both were highly rated when they broke through and it's not just Klopp who got the tune out of them they had pretty decent career prior to playing for Klopp's Liverpool as well.
More like after a win it is only because the other team was crap and our real test lies ahead while after a loss it is because we are hopelessly crap and ole is a Cardiff level fraud/pe teacher/ what have you, any extenuating circumstances can go do one. we saw that for all of the second half of last season after which a well deserved name and shame was put out by the 'ole in' people for the toxic vitriol on here from people who were moving the goalposts while having a moan.
It seems like it's almost impossible to separate discussing Ole, without delving into the Sancho transfer or Woodward and the Glazers. However, I will say this:
If there are 3 things I really like about what Ole has done it's that:
1. He established a pretty clear best 11. Now that's in doubt because it's extremely en vogue on here to lambast Lindelof because of his performance (I seem to remember his performance against Sevilla being pretty good actually, one of his best). But that's forgotten, and rightly so in some ways, because he was dreadful against Palace. But whenever United loses a match, there must be scapegoats.
De Gea
Wan-Bissaka Lindelof Maguire Shaw
Matic
Bruno Pogba
Greenwood Martial Rashford
That's probably our best 11 at the end of last season (you know, a month ago) and there was a bit of consensus around it.
Honest question: When was the last time we had a best 11? It was maybe at some point under Van Gaal, and the best 11 Van Gaal assembled wasn't anything that got very many of us that excited (it was Valencia, Smalling, Blind, Shaw, Herrera, Fellaini( maybe?), Rooney, Rashford, and Martial). Just look at that. Not once under Mourinho did I feel we ever had a best 11, I was mainly confused, and intoxicated, during that time.
2. By all accounts the dressing room was an absolute mess under Mourinho, and it seems Ole has cleared that up.
3. It's deeply unpopular because we haven't signed Sancho, a DM, a CB or whoever the flavour of the month is to replace is, but I really like the Bruno and Van de Beek signings. Here's why, we've been dreadful at getting goals from midfield. We've become so reliant on our forwards, and at times especially the centre-forward (the Lukaku era), to get goals, that it almost seemed like a miracle if a midfielder scored a goal. I fondly remember times when Robson, Giggsy, Scholesy, Roy Keane, or Becks would pop up score a goal. Bruno, Pogba, and VdB are all capable of it now, and if they start to fire on all cylinders with Rashy, Greenwood, and Martial - we're going to be a tough team to beat and defend against. I absolutely love that we're looking at getting goals from our MFs and that's taking us back to the golden age of Fergie. The lack of goals from MF has been an issue since the class of '92 started to wind down and Keano left.
There's certainly many valid reasons to have concerns about Ole, and I'm certainly on board with people who have valid concerns about how the club is being run, which I share. Certainly Ole's tactics, team selection, and substitutions bear some scrutiny. However, I keep hoping that there is a method to the madness. If we had 4 rotating and interlocking forwards in Martial, Rashy, Greenwood and possibly Sancho, with some combo of Pogba, Bruno and DvB behind them we've got goal scoring threats all over the pitch. I'd even go so far as to say that would exceed Liverpool and start to match City's options.
I suppose that makes me Ole in, but it's hard to deny it's far more exciting than Van Gaal and Mou.
If there are 3 things I really like about what Ole has done it's that:
1. He established a pretty clear best 11. Now that's in doubt because it's extremely en vogue on here to lambast Lindelof because of his performance (I seem to remember his performance against Sevilla being pretty good actually, one of his best). But that's forgotten, and rightly so in some ways, because he was dreadful against Palace. But whenever United loses a match, there must be scapegoats.
De Gea
Wan-Bissaka Lindelof Maguire Shaw
Matic
Bruno Pogba
Greenwood Martial Rashford
That's probably our best 11 at the end of last season (you know, a month ago) and there was a bit of consensus around it.
Honest question: When was the last time we had a best 11? It was maybe at some point under Van Gaal, and the best 11 Van Gaal assembled wasn't anything that got very many of us that excited (it was Valencia, Smalling, Blind, Shaw, Herrera, Fellaini( maybe?), Rooney, Rashford, and Martial). Just look at that. Not once under Mourinho did I feel we ever had a best 11, I was mainly confused, and intoxicated, during that time.
2. By all accounts the dressing room was an absolute mess under Mourinho, and it seems Ole has cleared that up.
3. It's deeply unpopular because we haven't signed Sancho, a DM, a CB or whoever the flavour of the month is to replace is, but I really like the Bruno and Van de Beek signings. Here's why, we've been dreadful at getting goals from midfield. We've become so reliant on our forwards, and at times especially the centre-forward (the Lukaku era), to get goals, that it almost seemed like a miracle if a midfielder scored a goal. I fondly remember times when Robson, Giggsy, Scholesy, Roy Keane, or Becks would pop up score a goal. Bruno, Pogba, and VdB are all capable of it now, and if they start to fire on all cylinders with Rashy, Greenwood, and Martial - we're going to be a tough team to beat and defend against. I absolutely love that we're looking at getting goals from our MFs and that's taking us back to the golden age of Fergie. The lack of goals from MF has been an issue since the class of '92 started to wind down and Keano left.
There's certainly many valid reasons to have concerns about Ole, and I'm certainly on board with people who have valid concerns about how the club is being run, which I share. Certainly Ole's tactics, team selection, and substitutions bear some scrutiny. However, I keep hoping that there is a method to the madness. If we had 4 rotating and interlocking forwards in Martial, Rashy, Greenwood and possibly Sancho, with some combo of Pogba, Bruno and DvB behind them we've got goal scoring threats all over the pitch. I'd even go so far as to say that would exceed Liverpool and start to match City's options.
I suppose that makes me Ole in, but it's hard to deny it's far more exciting than Van Gaal and Mou.
It's absolute bullshit anyway. Many United fans rated both Fabinho and Mane. I know I did certainly, and I'm not afraid to admit it. I also liked Robertson at Hull, but never really considered him United quality. There has to be a point where you just say, "Fair play to Liverpool, they made some quality signings that we missed out on because we f'd up."
Or more like “Fair play to Liverpool, they hired a great manager that we missed out on because we f’d up.”. I really don’t think they have a lot better squad than we do it’s just that players always look better when the team wins. I am sure they would be struggling just like we do if we had their squad.
Klopp’s a good manager ... no doubt. But if you think that Teutonic twat would’ve won the league by 30 points with our squad ... well ...
Never said about +30 but I think he is more than capable of winning the league with the squad we have now + new RW, certainly not finishing on 66 points.
Tbh with you I think our squad would look alot different with Klopp. Maguire and Wan Bissaka wouldn't have been bought under him IMO because they're unsuited to playing the style he wants to implement.
Respect your opinion, but I disagree. Klopp’s had more time at ‘Pool than Ole has had here; and everyone forgets his first season wasn’t that great. He’s a great manager, I won’t deny it - but I disagree he’d have cleaned up the mess here and won the league. Let’s just leave it at that. I’ve no interest in a Klopp vs Ole discussion because it’s rather pointless. He’s not our manager and he’s not going to be.
Cheers man. Didn't want to stoop to that level and not gonna get offended by some random on a forum anyway
It being 7 years since our last title has zero to do with Ole, so while it might fuel your giddy impatience, using it as stick to beat him with is moronic, yeah.
If, and it's a pretty big if, Ole gets the signings he needs, I'd like to see an improvement in league performance this season, continue to develop the team and possibly, after another 2 windows, be in a position to challenge next season - otherwise review his position.
What more do you think Ole should have achieved in the last 18 months as a matter of interest?
Never said it was anything to do with Ole, just pointing it out in the context that most will agree we need a manager that's going to win that title soon, because Liverpool are looking like they're going to equal us after SAF gave everything to knock them off. Not only that, United should always have that in mind and clubs this size shouldn't use the excuse of rebuilds for going years without major trophies. Especially after spending over the past four seasons £80m & £40m on Maguire and Lindelof , £40m on AWB, £50m on Fernandes, £30m on a VDB this summer and £50m on Fred in 2018. On top of that if he signed a RW in Sancho this summer and got in a LB one would think we're pretty much set to truly go for it under him when you think of our first team as a whole with Pogba, Rashford, Martial and Greenwood among it . Looking at those signings, not all under Ole, but it's not exactly a bunch of 18-20 year old's that require development as you say, Maguire for instance was surely the equivalent of Liverpool signing van Dijk. Most of these players if they'e right for his system, should be ready to go.
What more should Ole have done over the past 18 months? not a whole lot more and I'm not critiquing that, I'm questioning what the end game is in terms of taking that next step, if he gets what he still needs this summer. If he doesn't, as other posters have pointed out on here, should we be looking to bring in a manager that can get more of of our squad players and still push us towards a genuine challenge for the title. It seems to be that the majority of devote Ole in fans have low expectations for a manger they rate so highly.
Ole can/should (depending on investment) continue to improve performance and results this season - if he does, cool, if he doesn't (depending on investment) his position should be reviewed. For me, he's done enough so far, both in terms of recruitment and performance, to be giving license to continue.
Barring a complete collapse or regression by City & Liverpool I don't believe any manager can make up the gap that currently exists immediately, particularly if the club fails in recruitment as they seem to be doing.
Oh definitely and as it stands I wouldn't expect any sort of challenge, may of come off harsh but was just questioning what the expectations should be if he got all that he wants at this point.
Big if, but if he got the players he wants then we should see Utd consolidating our position in the top 4, ie not in a dog fight for 4th with Spurs & Chelsea, depending on them fecking up to help us out.
If we did consolidate our position in 3rd and cut the gap to the top 2 it would also be a positive reflection on our recruitment seeing as those other teams will have recruited also.
Then you go again next summer and continue to build.
I don't think we're going to see anymore investment though, so conversations about the manager are a bit pointless, we're seeing a rerun of Mourinhos last summer with the club failing to invest for development.
In those circumstances my expectation will be to finish somewhere between 7th and 5th - with 5th or anything better being an achievement.
We become rationale with our expectations when the conversation relates to Ole.
Perhaps if Moyes was fully backed (given every player he desired), we would have won the league.
Perhaps if Van Gaal was fully backed, we would have won the league.
Perhaps if Mourinho was fully backed, we would have won the league.
It seems the only time we give them this same excuse is when we're actively explaining why Ole may fail also. I'm curious though, before Ole came, how many of us would have given the 3 previous managers that excuse?
I may come off as being ridiculous to some but let me clarify a few things...
I'm not implying we were wrong to sack those managers.
Indeed, for a seriously sustained/consistent challenge for trophies, a club needs the best players it can get (as well as the best coaches) and that should be the aim of my beloved club.
However, tactically innovative coaches have shown that although consistent trophies may be out of their reach without the very best personnel, good-brilliant football can be played with average players on the back of well-drilled buildups, transitions, attacking and defending patterns. And this I must say, we lack.
Ole is a brilliant man-manager nonetheless. I take nothing from his achievements so far. I personally just find our football uninspired and the constant excuses that he needs more signings to play a certain way, overbearing. We have a general direction we are moving but we are less purposeful in our tactical implementation of how to get there. And it's not all a out the playing personnel.
Just my opinion. Be kind.
Perhaps if Moyes was fully backed (given every player he desired), we would have won the league.
Perhaps if Van Gaal was fully backed, we would have won the league.
Perhaps if Mourinho was fully backed, we would have won the league.
It seems the only time we give them this same excuse is when we're actively explaining why Ole may fail also. I'm curious though, before Ole came, how many of us would have given the 3 previous managers that excuse?
I may come off as being ridiculous to some but let me clarify a few things...
I'm not implying we were wrong to sack those managers.
Indeed, for a seriously sustained/consistent challenge for trophies, a club needs the best players it can get (as well as the best coaches) and that should be the aim of my beloved club.
However, tactically innovative coaches have shown that although consistent trophies may be out of their reach without the very best personnel, good-brilliant football can be played with average players on the back of well-drilled buildups, transitions, attacking and defending patterns. And this I must say, we lack.
Ole is a brilliant man-manager nonetheless. I take nothing from his achievements so far. I personally just find our football uninspired and the constant excuses that he needs more signings to play a certain way, overbearing. We have a general direction we are moving but we are less purposeful in our tactical implementation of how to get there. And it's not all a out the playing personnel.
Just my opinion. Be kind.
Anyone expecting Ole to reach Pep or Klopp coaching heights is deluded. Ole is not a rookie, he's been managing for 10 years, we can talk about how Klopp didnt win anything until his 3rd or 4th season whatever. But thats like saying Salah wasnt a star until he arrived to Liverpol at 25, so we should keep giving Andreas Pereira chances since he's 24.
Bottom ground Klopp and Pep are special, they're the Messi and Cristiano of coaches, for all the disadvantages we have in the squad we should be looking for the next special coach instead of persisting with an average one.
Bottom ground Klopp and Pep are special, they're the Messi and Cristiano of coaches, for all the disadvantages we have in the squad we should be looking for the next special coach instead of persisting with an average one.
Too much sense in this post. Good post mate. I am trying to explain what is manager's job for a year now but no luck. "He knows and loves the club" is Ole's job.
If player is playing bad-》 player's fault. If coach can't get the best from player-》 player's fault. If player is unfit -》 player's fault. If system fails -》 it is Ed's fault because he didn't buy x and y player. If player flops -》 Ed's fault.
I always thought that manager's job is raising players abilities, changing systems (if you don't have no10, don't play with it ffs), adapting on different situations, reading the game well, finding counter game for other manager's tactics, keeping players focused, match preparation, coaching attacking play, coaching defence, set pieces, picking right assistants....and a lot of more. Especially i would expect that United fan would know that based on years with Fergie and based on watching how our rivals look with current managers and how they looked before that.
And not just them. Look how Leeds with average players look with Bielsa. How Leicester with nothing special squad look with Rodgers (who is not even something special as a manager). How decent team like Wolves look under Santo. Etc...etc...
This is what happens when you get cult hero’s to manager your club. We dodged it with Giggs but this stupid board managed to do one better and give Ole the job full time.
You’ll never get fans to all be on side with what is blatantly obvious. Until he’s gone that is then you can’t find anyone who can say with there chest they believed in him.
Good post. Feel the same way more or less. Amazing how our back 5 suddenly need replacing after the most clean sheets in Europe's top five leagues last year ... Yous never think our first league loss in 7 months would lead to a reaction like this
what is your second paragraph meant to say??
The two of you make an interesting point. This has been discussed around in papers and by football people today. And the consensus have been the opposite. When it goes bad, it’s oles fault, when we play good, it’s the players. I think it was called snobbery and ignorance. You can listen to it here. But it has been widely discussed around several “football experts”
https://talksport.com/radio/listen-again/1600711200/
We have lost one game (in 8 months) The first team had 4 days of training together. Who are the idiots?
And further. We can’t offload and sign players. Is that Oles fault also?
Personally don't see how anyone can have a view that isn't some version of yours. I'm amazed when people say he hasn't done enough to continue, and also amazed when people say he should improve this season without singing anyone else, some even saying he should compete for the title Vs probably the two best ever sides. It's so hard to make sense of
You're talking absolute pony.
You think people are going to pretend they didn't back the manager?
Pure shitposting
Jose was 50/50 on here in his last season I swear to god I can’t find them now. Everyone seems to now know he is wasn’t there guy and this team is so much better than when he was in charge.
Forget talksport. Forget football expert. What is red cafe saying. This is what we are all on.
first? So what. We also finished after everyone else so we played a competitive match sooner than everyone else.
Second? If I remember correctly Ole was the face sitting next to Phil Jones, Smalling, Pierera, Mata and all the latest guys when they signed there new deals. Are you saying he wanted them to sign new deals so he could sell them?
I seriously don’t get how whether we keep or sack Ole is even a conversation that needs to be had right now and can’t tell if this thread has been reinvigorated because of one result from the weekend.
I understand that there is a group (possibly quite large) who have never supported his appointment and still dont believe that he is the man for the job. I respect this opinion and understand why. I was close to calling for his head at the end of January after Burnley at home.
Anybody who is now calling for his head, why????? What were your expectations for last season??A better league position? A guaranteed trophy? If so, I hate to break it to you, your expectations were too high.
i know with 3 semi final losses there was an element of disappointment but I believe that last season was a success and a huge stepping stone to moving the club forward to its long-term goals. Unfortunately, I think the fans’ goals and the clubs goals are worlds apart.
one loss this season doesn’t detract away from that, no matter what the reason for the defeat at the weekend.
i do not think Ole is the long term solution to the job at United and I do not expect a title challenge from him. Especially not this season. BUT, from his achievements’ last season, he certainly deserves to be the person to make the attempt.
let’s just see where the next 10 days to the window closing bring us and then question where and how we start to judge this season. The expectation levels will be extremely different depending on who else is signed, if anybody and realistically we could be saying that we expect a full tilt challenge to get in the top 2 or we could be saying we’d be happy with a EL position.
I understand that there is a group (possibly quite large) who have never supported his appointment and still dont believe that he is the man for the job. I respect this opinion and understand why. I was close to calling for his head at the end of January after Burnley at home.
Anybody who is now calling for his head, why????? What were your expectations for last season??A better league position? A guaranteed trophy? If so, I hate to break it to you, your expectations were too high.
i know with 3 semi final losses there was an element of disappointment but I believe that last season was a success and a huge stepping stone to moving the club forward to its long-term goals. Unfortunately, I think the fans’ goals and the clubs goals are worlds apart.
one loss this season doesn’t detract away from that, no matter what the reason for the defeat at the weekend.
i do not think Ole is the long term solution to the job at United and I do not expect a title challenge from him. Especially not this season. BUT, from his achievements’ last season, he certainly deserves to be the person to make the attempt.
let’s just see where the next 10 days to the window closing bring us and then question where and how we start to judge this season. The expectation levels will be extremely different depending on who else is signed, if anybody and realistically we could be saying that we expect a full tilt challenge to get in the top 2 or we could be saying we’d be happy with a EL position.
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