That was certainly not the point. The point was just I think we have a much better squad than Arsenal or at least one that has performed better.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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That was certainly not the point. The point was just I think we have a much better squad than Arsenal or at least one that has performed better.
I agree. We have a better squad than Arsenal so we should sack Ole and hire Arteta.
Neither have done much yet. Although Arteta won two cups.
Going from Ole to Areteta would be very much going sideways and it would take time for Arteta to build his side.
I have my doubts about Ole, but I would have equally big doubts about Arteta.
Think if they change jobs with each other they would both do worse since they gain things being club legends at the clubs.
Yes and that's why we finished 3rd and they finished 8th. Arteta did nothing special on that front.
He's boody awful, would have nearly put me off watching if he'd arrived.
I'm not attacking Ole. I'm just making my own assessment of his liklihood of finishing higher than fourth in future given that he isn't putting out a team that is capable of an intense press. Others are welcome to disagree.
I am, however, very much attacking the club structure, Ed Wodward and the Glazers for their lack of football ambition and commercial prioritisiation. And I think they use Ole as a human shield against criticism. And by making it all about Ole and fan loyalty, you are letting them get away with it.
You are totally wrong that last part.
Wooly and the glazers have been getting it barrel loads. Matter fact last 2 weeks they been getting it loads online from what I can see. Woodward out trending as well.
The ole is some sort of scrapegoat protective blanket for them is nonsense.
Well you don't agree. That doesn't make it nonsense.
Progress isn’t linear chaps, it peaks and troughs. Have some patience.
Luiz has a few really good qualities - none of which are essential (rather beneficial) for a defender - like shooting and long-passing. That apart - I Think he is crap!
Absolute bollocks . His higher level still wouldn't see him anywhere near United's squad . He is a complete and utter calamity
@glazed
I can understand someone not rating Ole, or not enjoying the way we play, these are after all subjective. What I don't understand is why are you (and a few others) acting like pressing is some kind of revelation and the ultimate answer to the question that is football.
Over the years we've seen great teams playing different styles and formations with different tactics. There's always been something to fawn about. How organized a defense was, how devastating an attack was, or how controlling the midfield. Wide formations, tight and compact, pressing, sitting back, counter attacking, the possibilities are endless. We've seen them come and go.
For great winning teams the formula isn't "how" they play, it's how well they can do it. There is no right and wrong way; any method can be a winning formula if done right.
I can understand someone not rating Ole, or not enjoying the way we play, these are after all subjective. What I don't understand is why are you (and a few others) acting like pressing is some kind of revelation and the ultimate answer to the question that is football.
Over the years we've seen great teams playing different styles and formations with different tactics. There's always been something to fawn about. How organized a defense was, how devastating an attack was, or how controlling the midfield. Wide formations, tight and compact, pressing, sitting back, counter attacking, the possibilities are endless. We've seen them come and go.
For great winning teams the formula isn't "how" they play, it's how well they can do it. There is no right and wrong way; any method can be a winning formula if done right.
Because Liverpool, City, Bayern - and even Spurs. If something better comes along I'm all for it but for now the most intense press wins the silverware.
Btw this is not about pressing per se. Everyone presses. It's the intensity that makes the difference.
Also, this thread should be left to die in peace
If by "intensity" you mean intensity of pressing, then I disagree. It's not enough to win games.
For what it's worth, Liverpool have been very lucky with injuries, which we have suffered from, and City and Bayern have great squads with depth, something we lack. So comparing us to them,aand reducing it to "pressing" is too reductive to be meaningful.
These teams play differently. They have very good teams that allow them to play like they do. For Liverpool it's the quality of wingers and fullbacks, for City, they tend to mainly hog the ball, for Bayern it's the all around quality of their squad. Like you said, everyone presses. But it'sone facet of the game, and you can't actually press the ball into the goal. There's a lot more going on.
If by "intensity" you mean intensity of pressing, then I disagree. It's not enough to win games.
For what it's worth, Liverpool have been very lucky with injuries, which we have suffered from, and City and Bayern have great squads with depth, something we lack. So comparing us to them,aand reducing it to "pressing" is too reductive to be meaningful.
The criticism has become so abstract that it’s about the fabled high press, which sometimes becomes intense press. Starts with goalie. Romero is apparently on the level of world class keepers.
Ultimately, you have to see how you will score goals while being in a position to prevent them against your team.
This United first team will dribble past players or have any of Rashford, Martial, Luke Shaw, Pogba and Bruno combine, or it will be an individual goal coming out of nowhere. We also score a fair few from our press.
Where we fail is in playing the ball safely and well out from the back. Crossing that first line. Our defenders and goalie need practice when it comes to breaking the press and we are golden. As it is, we have gone toe to toe with both Liverpool and city and won/drawn. So we can break their press.
We just couldn’t break the lesser teams down or adapt to the energy of the mid table teams. I would argue that the routes that we score goals now are quite well attuned to doing that.
Most of my frustration with our team has been about the inability to progress the ball forward to Bruno or a Rashford in space, for example. After that we are quite dangerous.
May be high press Is the answer. But may be we will get robbed blind if we try to do that with Matic, Maguire and Lindelof.
It’s one thing to point out a flaw and another to address it. I think a more obvious flaw was that we had been too reliant on Bruno. If you acknowledge that, VdB makes sense. But only if you accept that, barring other players coming in, we might stay top 4 material without seriously challenging for the title.
Ultimately, you have to see how you will score goals while being in a position to prevent them against your team.
This United first team will dribble past players or have any of Rashford, Martial, Luke Shaw, Pogba and Bruno combine, or it will be an individual goal coming out of nowhere. We also score a fair few from our press.
Where we fail is in playing the ball safely and well out from the back. Crossing that first line. Our defenders and goalie need practice when it comes to breaking the press and we are golden. As it is, we have gone toe to toe with both Liverpool and city and won/drawn. So we can break their press.
We just couldn’t break the lesser teams down or adapt to the energy of the mid table teams. I would argue that the routes that we score goals now are quite well attuned to doing that.
Most of my frustration with our team has been about the inability to progress the ball forward to Bruno or a Rashford in space, for example. After that we are quite dangerous.
May be high press Is the answer. But may be we will get robbed blind if we try to do that with Matic, Maguire and Lindelof.
It’s one thing to point out a flaw and another to address it. I think a more obvious flaw was that we had been too reliant on Bruno. If you acknowledge that, VdB makes sense. But only if you accept that, barring other players coming in, we might stay top 4 material without seriously challenging for the title.
In summary we can challenge for the league? I hope that’s what you’re saying.
I agree. Because they all have Directors of Football or Sporting Directors who identify the best players for a particular style of play and go out and buy them or else focus on their development if they already have them
We have an accountant called Ed.
They finished 33 points ahead of us because of injuries? I'm not sure I can agree with that...
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I agree with the first paragraph. Pre-Ole our recruitment was very underwhelming.
33 points is due to having quality players who all stayed fit and allowed them to play exactly like they wanted to. We lost Pogba, our only creative player early in the season and only got him back after the season restarted. We lost Rashford when he was head and shoulders our best player, and in the best form of his career. He has yet to return to close to that form.
If any of our first eleven are knackered or having an off day, the drop in quality is huge. That's even before discussing the underperforming keeper, the issue at right wing etc.
Like I said, winning is multifactorial. A lot of things have to come together (luck included). If you really believe it's as simple as "the team that presses harder wins" then there's an awful lot going on during games that you're missing.
I think the team that presses harder and in a more organised way wins more often than teams that don't, other things being equal. This, I think, is especially true against opponents outside the top 6.
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If all other things are equal then the team that does any one thing better will usually win whether that thing be pressing or taking pot shots or whatever.
We should close this thread, there's no indication Ole will be sacked.
I doubt if we will have any problem breaking down teams that sit back because there we have grown.
We will not be too far away if our defenders and goalies are coached to consistently progress the ball forward when the teams press us. We can do it on a good day when everyone in our first team is fit, but can we do it week in week out - when say, Luke Shaw is injured or Matic is not playing? That’s a big question when it comes to challenging.
It is funny that this season I envision us having the opposite problems from previous season. We will enjoy success against lesser teams and might struggle against top 5-6 if we don’t get a second left back, CDM and a defender.
But we will surely get more points.
Yes, surely more points. Hopefully another one or two decent signings and it looks pretty rosy.
Ok fair enough. How about 'given the same quality of players the team that brings an intense press to every game will finish 33 points above the team that doesn't.'
Yeah, funny. Can’t argue with the table.
But how about this: given a similar quality of first-choice eleven, in the period since Bruno joined, all things come out about equal whether you be Kings of The Press or not?
You can't reduce the game to one aspect like that.
Similar players and one team adopts one particular tactic = winning by 33pts?
Well equally if a sprinter has one leg, you can't reduce him to that one disability. But I wouldn't bet on him winning Gold at the Olympics (unless it was the Paralympics)
Yup. Great logic, very similar to pressing in football. I agree. Sack Ole.
Well dippers form dipped after they tied up the title, and we were having one of Ole's golden periods that he struggles to sustain once other teams deconstruct his tweaks - so it's not a great or long enough comparison period. But what I saw was that when we ran out of gas at the end we struggled very badly. And squad players struggled to rotate into the team. For me that's a sign that (a) yes ok our squad is weak but (b) we aren't playing to a coherent enough system that players can slot in and out seamlessly.
I don't think this sentence is as clever as you think it is.
You saying it, doesn't make it true either
(b) I don’t really buy that but if we had better players you might not see this as such a problem
(a) Winner!
Exactly my point
I actually see Ole outlasting Klopp Mourinho and Pep. Pep and Klopp will take a break Mourinho will get sacked and United will win the league next year. You heard it here first.
Hey!!
I think you are not talking crazy. We should be challenging this coming season or next. And the three you mention could easily be gone within a couple of years for whatever reason.
We just need a little luck and for us to peak just at the right time. But Pep and Klopp have to leave first.
This line of thinking isn't the best.
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Have you got a licence to fly pigs?
Ah, now that does sound a bit crazy. They don’t have to leave. We just need to play well more of the time - Pep and Klopp can do what they like, they can’t stop us improving can they?
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