Which you have been doing
They said I was lying about Mourinho too. Now we all know it wasn’t working apparently.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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They said I was lying about Mourinho too. Now we all know it wasn’t working apparently.
Yes. That is why Klopp took 3 years and Pep's first season was crap.
Do you honestly believe they can do it without quality? If thats the case, teams would spend all their money to get Klopp and Pep instead of players.
I can agree that Klopp improves players but its not like the players are crap are they?
Go have a look at Mane, Salah, VVD, Fabinho records before they went to Liverpool, they had very good output.
Go have a look at Mahrez, Bernado, Rodri, Laporte, Mendy;s output before they joined City. These are not players they have picked out of thin air and made better.
Talking about technique and tactics, please have a look at the output from Rashford and Martial this season, Fred, McTominay's improvement.
Tactics - please go check our record against bigger teams v Jose's records.
Yeah noone knows the answer. Ole does something well. Like man management for his main 11, counter attacking tactics, decent transfers for his way or style. Something bad like coaching patterns in attack, set pieces, match coaching, lifting the weaker players in the squad, building for a general style.
I'm not seeing them, sorry.
That's fair, but that's a problem for you. Not for others.
Even a 10 year old kid would have told that Jose was losing it and sabotaging our side since the Sevilla game. So you didn't know or predict something something special. Ole will be here for the next season and I get that bothers you but that's a fact whether we like it or not.
And if your argument is that fans will back him no matter what well you would be proven wrong. Progress is needed. No progress and pressure will be high come next season.
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I'm not talking about the clubs, I'm talking about the fans. Yeah just see what happens next season if Arsenal and Spurs finish 6th and 7th next season.
You just make this too easy.
He should be sacked. 'Cut throat approach' is something I'd like.
The onus is on those who dispute Ole's management of the club to provide a valid argument as to why they believe that is the case. I mean that in the nicest possible way.
The sacking approach will only work if you have a stable squad filled with 3 or 4 world class players. If we sack ole today the new manager wouldn't come and win you a trophy immediately or take us to challenging title. It's a process and yes you are right we must act like Barca juve real Madrid but they have been on top for long while we just are the biggest ckub by name but are no way near on the footballing pitch. If you are looking for a quick fix then blame woodward and owners.
One thing I've learned from reading online arguments is even with the best constructed arguments, you can't really change people's mind if they're set in their stance.
Similar to political issues, the onus is on the debaters to be open to other points of view, or else we're all talking at each other to no avail.
That's great, removing all the hostility from these discussions is a very good start IMO.
Fair enough
He was out thought and out coached last night, by a long, long way. Nothing to do with spending power or players - he was just like a rabbit in the headlights when it was obvious they were pissing all over us.
Thank you Ole for all you have done and returning a little of the 'United ethos', but it is time to find a manager to take us forward.
Just an observation - ever since Marcus became the new Mother Theresa, he has been rubbish.
I don't think you're even reading it.
So to recap:
Improved performances and closer to top 2 in the league: sacked
Distant 4th plus League Cup win: keep
And that's an example of being cut-throat and the best strategy to take us back to the top?
Even Chelsea's is a model I feel we can explore. They take plenty of managerial risks usually appointing the shiniest toy in town and at least half of them succeed resulting in constant trophies year in year out. I'm worried we will end doing nothing if we are overly patient with managers.
Do you read what you're asking?
Closer to top 2 means finishing third and feck all trophies.
Of course I'd take a 'distant' 4th and league cup/FA Cup.
Which is also coincidentally since he came back from a terrible injury. Hmm I wonder which has more relevance?
Why do people have such a problem with Rashford's charity work? He was feeding kids ffs
This is what I mean.
Look, mate, saying "he was out thought and out coached last night" is not an argument in any sense of the word. That's just throwing keywords at people without the specifics to back them up, which forces me to ask the following questions.
1. How was he out thought?
2. How was he out coached?
3. How does spending power factor into this specific argument?
4. Rabbit in headlights?
5. Pissing all over us?
6. Marcus what now?
7 Mother Theresa?
We had 20 shots! On any other day, the shots we had would have resulted in us scoring 4-5 goals. Had it been us not able to penetrate defence, you would be right. However, if the goalkeeper is having to make those many stops, the defenders have to slid in at the last moment, make clearances after GK is beaten, I'm sorry that's not a tactical masterclass. Its just a case of us having been 'Friedel-ed'
I think the biggest problem is how we are building. To be a top 4 club or win titles? It feels like we are moving in the top 4 direction. This is not on Ole only, but on the board mainly.
We will see if we can get Sancho or not.
We will see if we can get Sancho or not.
I don't think he should be sacked, currently.
I do have my doubts about his long term success but he met the minimum expectations this season and deserves to be here at the start of next season.
It is not difficult to see I said those who uses are insulting using a pathetic attitude, and snowflakes is nothing wrong with it, it means sensitive.
I have no problem at all and laud him for it. As I said, it is an observation. If it is down to an injury, why was he brought back before he was ready?
Okay, cool.
Do you read what you're asking?
Closer to top 2 means finishing third and feck all trophies.
Of course I'd take a 'distant' 4th and league cup/FA Cup.
Wow, okay then.
As far as I'm concerned one is an indicator of progress and future success and the other is a bright spot on a mediocre season.
If you're willing to settle for a distant 4th next season, I don't consider that cut throat at all.
You have answered all your own questions.
Let's assume for a moment that this assumption is true. So, Let's look at it from 2 different perspectives:
Owner Perspective:
We should splash 80m on a CB, 50m on a RB, 50m on Bruno and 85m on Pogba so that we can finish in top 4. We don't care about profits and the returns we get on these players, and let's just finish in top 4 and break even every year.
Take a breather and think, would an owner who has no ties to the club say that this is our ultimate aim and then approve those signings?
Now look at it from an outside perspective/fan perspective:
We have signed arguably the best available CB, among the best defensive RBs, signing among the most productive CAMs. Add to that we have among the most exciting front 3 in Europe, with arguably the highest ceiling going forward. Do you really think that this side is being built with an aim of just finishing in top 4?
Then why connect the two? It's weird.
I was reading it can take up to a year to fully recover from that injury. He can still be fit to play and either way he's a better option than anything we have on the bench.
I agree with you in terms of what constitutes progress next season.
Cup competitions can be a bit of a lottery but I still expect us to reach the quarters finals as a minimum in most comps.
For me league position is the biggest indicator of progress. In terms of position we "improved" this seaon but points wise we didn't. For me next season we cannot be out of the title race by Christmas again. I don’t expect us to win the league but we certainly need to be cutting the gap between us and the top 2.
How would you feel if we have a similar start to the season as last year? How long are you willing to give Ole in the season if we still seem miles behind City and Pool?
I don't like that label as things change quickly in football. I have good arguments for keeping Ole and good arguments for looking elsewhere.
For the latter, some of the arguments are:
i) There are coaches available who are able to organize a team better than Ole.
ii) The backup players' poor form isn't independent of Ole.
iii) His squad management seems to be amiss at times.
iv) The standard of coaches in the PL is very high, and everyone has money to spend. The difference has to come from the manager. We can't rely on outspending everyone anymore.
v) Going with Ole was always a risk, seeing as he was relatively unknown before his interim period. He was hired off the back of that form which he hasn't been able to show over a season (unlike other punts such as Guardiola or Zidane). So it's logical to assume that his interim was a purple patch, and he's not at that level as a manager, and thus we should look at higher level options.
etc.
Now this is a non exhaustive list of decent reasons to consider someone else especially given that Ole was a punt. A list which posters like @Mainoldo and @SAFMUTD can expand upon. There are also good reasons to keep him which I could provide if you'd like. Posters like @Tom Cato and @Bilbo usually provide decent analysis of those.
But the important thing is that this has to be a discussion where the end goal is clear. Some want to win at all costs, some want to win with attacking football, some want winning, attacking football and youth, some want all that as well as 'one of our own' at the helm. And some are obviously biased for/ against the current manager. These contrasting desires will all result in differing opinion even if the end goal of success is seemingly the same.
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It is more how we are not improving our attack. We lack options and are barely using those we got so that our starting 11 gets burned out.
Bruno was a good signing, but that is one player. Look at Chelsea who are adding so many attacking options already.
I have no illusions about catching City or Liverpool, but have grave fears about how Chelsea are going to improve.
I did?
It's literally been 1 season and he has found his preferred front 3. Give him time to make improvements to the squad as a whole before delivering the verdict
I'd absolutely expect a decent start to the season and for us to be comfortably in top 4. There was a very specific set of circumstances last season and lots of mitigating factors.
However, there has to be progression year on year and there shouldn't really be any excuses next season.
I can't see him surviving if we're mid- table in November, for example.
Yeah sure we will see about this window. Just frustarted we are out of EL and looks like no Sancho too.
I was not a fan of last summer, but we had a good January window in the end.
What does this even mean, the person you've quoted is saying Klopp, Zidane etc started managing their respective clubs with no prior experience or winning, which is a fair point, however they then proved they were worthy of the position. We didn't hire Ole immediately after he stopped playing with no prior experience, he's been in management since 2008, the same time as Guardiola has been managing ffs, did Ole prove in those 12 years he's good enough to manage Manchester United, are his credentials as good as Guardiola's are they, in the same time?
The argument that no top club would hire him holds weight because Ole hasn't shown anything in those 12 odd years of management that he's good enough for such a job, which is why he has never been approached for one until we came along, where as the other managers mentioned worked their way from the bottom and proved that they could do it
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