I never thought I would see the word 'hereunder' being used on the Caf as y'know, no one is drafting up legislation or anything. So I had to do a search and these are my findings: It's been used 10 times on here in the past 15 years and @Tom Cato is responsible for 5 of those times. Congratulations Tom, you've won the 'Hereunder' Caf lifetime achievement award.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
- Start date
- Status
fecking hell... And then you say you're rational
Fred? McTominay? fecking Rashford who literally and figuratively carried us on his back?
Fred was similar level to previously, same with Mctominany-Jose loved him for a reason
Rashford - been as good as before
Has he not done that, or do you not think he managed to get a tune out of players like Fed and McTominay in a way that no manager previously had done, or that he managed to get both Rashford and Martial scoring consistently? Rashford, lest we forget, was being denigrated on this very forum as recently as September...
What is normal big club spending?
Yeah, course... 'Rashbeck' and 'Rashford' was always seen as a good player, both on here and elsewhere... Christ.
I’ve never called him those names - he’s been great for a while. Clearly talented player
The ones Ole has improved are Martial & Greenwood
Especially for a manager's first season, I'd say transfers around the upper end without being world records. Most clubs don't break world record sums every other season.
What are you talking about? Fred played a lot better in his previous clubs than at United. As for Scott, United is the only club he has played and previous managers for both of them at United was a toxic Jose. Scott has played just on par when he was played in midfield while Fred was crap in his first season in the PL.
We don't expect Manchester United managers to be fighting for the CL places only. Yes I do understand that this is his second season but even then so far he has not shown to be a top class coach yet.
As the world's biggest club I expect a lot more from a Manchester United managers. It's the same with LVG and Jose.
At least with Ole he has been given the chance to continue even if he fails to qualify for the CL while others would have been sacked and was sacked even after winning trophies.
He got access to those huge sums of money before he did anything else.
If you read my point it wasn't a criticism of Ole, but our transfer policy. Ole's case is no different.
Even we don't break world records every other season, we broke once and that was for Pogba.
AWB was bought for a lot of money. That's basically my point, Ole hadn't really shown anything before being allowed to spend that much.
Thought i'd look at our progress in a little more detail, so I give you... the United Goal Difference Progress Graph.
Some more interesting stats for this timeline:
It's almost identical scoring/conceding wise. Jose edges it out on total points and clean sheets. A little scary how both teams end up with almost an identical goal difference. Either way, current progress looks promising for Ole as he is replicating Jose' good form back in 2017 at the moment. Is progress being made? If you remove Oles new manager bounce from the equation then our form from the 31st March 2018 to 26th December 2019 is pretty similar, but to Ole's credit he's managed to shake us out of that slump and bring us back upto speed. Whether this is just another blip of good form is the debate, we will only know that answer by January 2021 when Corona withstanding we should be roughly half way through the 20/21 season.
It's clearly taken the squad some time to recover from Jose's final season, the additions to our defense took time to settle but the last 7 months has shown a big improvement, along with our attack being boosted by Bruno. It's clear progress.
- The circles represent clean sheets
- Red Line = Jose in charge
- Blue Line = Ole in charge
- Given Oles been in charge of 58 United league games, I used Jose' last 58 league games
Some more interesting stats for this timeline:
| Manager | League Games | GF | GA | GD | Clean Sheets | Total Points |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jose | 58 | 100 | 59 | 41 | 23 | 111 |
| Ole | 58 | 100 | 61 | 39 | 17 | 103 |
It's almost identical scoring/conceding wise. Jose edges it out on total points and clean sheets. A little scary how both teams end up with almost an identical goal difference. Either way, current progress looks promising for Ole as he is replicating Jose' good form back in 2017 at the moment. Is progress being made? If you remove Oles new manager bounce from the equation then our form from the 31st March 2018 to 26th December 2019 is pretty similar, but to Ole's credit he's managed to shake us out of that slump and bring us back upto speed. Whether this is just another blip of good form is the debate, we will only know that answer by January 2021 when Corona withstanding we should be roughly half way through the 20/21 season.
It's clearly taken the squad some time to recover from Jose's final season, the additions to our defense took time to settle but the last 7 months has shown a big improvement, along with our attack being boosted by Bruno. It's clear progress.
Rashford League Stats:
He's improved his goal scoring drastically under Ole.
Manager | Mins | Goals | Assists | Min per Goal | Min per Assist |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Managed by Jose | 4356 | 15 | 12 | 290.4 | 363.0 |
Managed by Ole | 4058 | 24 | 10 | 169.1 | 405.8 |
note these are taken from Transfermarkt.com
LVG - Given 2 summer windows. Got sacked after failing to get UCL even though he got the FA Cup
Jose - Got us trophies and got 3 summer windows. Sacked after he was 6th in the league.
Ole hasnt even completed one full season.
Only league record?
Yup, edited to make clear.
Martial has improved as well but not to the same degree as Rashford.
Thanks.
Maguire and Wan-Bissaka were also record signings for their positions. A lot of the clubs we're up against in the market can't compete with us. We end up outmuscling them financially. If we get Sancho, and I hope we do, that's another example of us shopping at the absolute top of the pile even above other top clubs. It's why i don't buy the argument of us constantly losing out on signings to other clubs. We usually always win.
And I'm not saying we shouldn't. I'm glad we are showing that ambition, but it should be done smartly.
Walker was the same price.
So we are in a position where we can sign these players, clubs in lesser financial positions back their managers with what they can. I didn't know you are talking about records by position btw.
There is no club who will hire a manger and not back them, instead of that ask them to prove before spending, if that's the case they wouldn't hire that manger.
Also AWB wasn't record signing, Simon Stone posted a tweet saying Walker cost 52 million pounds, which is still a record.
More than AWB. 52 million pounds.
This is kind of ignoring my original post that by the end of Poch's tenure we were talking about all these amazing players he had but the point is he developed them all. It's a bit different with United because we tend to buy players like Pogba, Maguire, Shaw, AWB etc who are world record transfers for their role/age and so you generally are dealing with a different calibre of player (at least a perceived different calibre at that time). Martial is probably the best example of where Ole has done well in that you can see his development this season easily but I'm not sure he's improved the others you mentioned, although he should get credit for at least getting them back to an ok level unlike Mourinho and, in fairness, Ole didn't sign them anyway.
When you measure progress, at some point you have to look past the big media push that's been undoubtedly happening about the feel good factor being back/how Ole is getting back to the 'United way' and assess things without emotion/loyalty/bias. We are having an poor season and stats wise I don't think your last paragraph is accurate. Hopefully the below is helpful because I didn't actually realise the extent to which the stats don't back Ole:
- Points total (63): If Ole doesn't win at Leicester he will have the lowest points total finish since Moyes (LVG's was 66 & Mou's was 66 the season he was fired so it's half Ole's already anyway), that alone should be serious cause for concern.
- Goals scored (64): Contrary to what you state, we are actually -1 GF this season compared to last. Here's hoping we win on Sunday and that at least draws level but hardly a big sign of progress.
- Goals conceded (36): Definitely an improvement on last season although 18/19 was atrocious and it's worth pointing out Ole took over with 20 games remaining where he conceded 27 goals.
- We have already conceded more goals than every other season post Moyes bar LVG's first (we are currently 1 goal less than that)
So long as he is the manager he should be backed to the hilt to get the players he wants. If he wants to spend 500 million so be it if he wins the PL and CL.
I have no issues with the amount of money he spends so long as he wins trophies.
I have no issues with the amount of money he spends so long as he wins trophies.
Ole came in and didn't fancy Lukaku amongst several others, these things happen but I doubt there is progressive manager who would come in and try to get shot of Martial and Greenwood. If that happens then most likely the club would have made a wrong appointment.
Good on you! Lashing out on Pogba is beyond stupidity now he is about to sign a new contract..
You are not very knowledgeable about football, but I don’t have the prevlidges to put you to bed.
But if you for one moment think it is in the clubs interest spreading negative energy this moment in time, you are not a ManUtd supporter but a WHUM. Either that or a bloody idiot.
This is the time for all men on deck. Not agenda driven fools who would like nothing more than be proven right. Embarrassing...
We broke a world record fee for a defender in Harry Maguire.
And you have frequently in this thread shown that you certainly are not among those 5%
So is it the 5% of the 500 people who vote him to be sacked or 5% of the entire fan base?
Because 1562 people have voted to keep him.
Also, you are the 5% that know so much, you wanted Roberto Martinez as Manutd manager to replace Jose.
AWB was talked about as a record, so that's news to me.
But yeah, I'm not unhappy we are able to win against most other clubs in the market, I'm worried it's not done with sense and thus we're wasting a lot of money. For instance, if we hired someone like Moves and backed him with records before he even proved anything, that wouldn't be smart right?
Not saying that Ole is Moyes btw, just saying the huge backing we've given our managers needs to have come with some sort of guarantee. We all knew Mourinho being backed with Persic and Willian wasn't the right move; hence proof that there should be requirements before backing.
If the management is convinced Moyes was the right man and they agree to sign a contract with them, then yes they should back him (not signing every player but at least back him to get few players).
I don't think anyone would argue manager should be backed all the time and every player they want should be signed, it's just that logic of "prove first then we can sign" is just wrong. If you don't trust manager then don't sign him.
Which big club hired manager, asked him to prove first before spending money?
You're having a mare
I could argue the point in reverse.
Ole was given the chance to prove himself in this temp stint. He proved himself by getting all those wins and the PSG miracle. Then he got the job and see how it went?
What is to say, if we done the same with another manager, backed him after 6 months, the results won't be the same?
This is why it is so hard to chose the right manager. Right now, other than Pep and Klopp, there isnt much top top qaulity out there.
I agree with your point in general.
The problem is we're not a typical big club in terms of hiring managers. We've made at least 2 hirings out of 4 where it would make sense that the manager needs to show something first. For the other 2 it would make sense to back them.
I don't know what you are arguing btw. I didnt say Ole is the best possible manager we can get, I said "prove and spend" is something that will never work and no big club works like that.
If the club wants the managers to prove before spending then they shouldn't sign them, they should sign them when they prove elsewhere or sign managers who have already proven their worth.
- Status