Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Class of 63]

Things are different after 4 years.

Well there are a few minor differences.

While The Doc was really popular for the football United played - Sexton certainly wasn't. And during that season - we had experienced a season where:


a) We had scored more than 2 goals only 5 times
b) We had not scored a goal 14 times
c) We had been through a patch with 2 wins, 2 draws and 7 defeats

On top of Everything we had an aging side - most of our keyplayers were around 30 - Jordan was Close to 30, Macari was 31, McQueen was 29 and McIlroy was 28 I think

Birtles was a giant flop

So things weren't looking too bright for United in may 1981.

I think the previous 3 3/4 seasons were taken into account too?

Yeah I know, Dave will have known his time was up as early as February, out of all the Cups, and next to no chance of UEFA Cup football the following season but it still felt wrong(at the time) to sack him off the back of seven straight wins at the end of the season. Quite possibly the only Manager, anywhere, ever, that has happened to.

 

[lysglimt]

I think the previous 3 3/4 seasons were taken into account too?

It was actually a miracle that Sexton lasted as long as he did. In Dochertys last season United played good, attacking football and we ended 6th with 47 Points in 42 matches (equivalent to 65 Points today) - and we also won the FA Cup. Leading scorers were Gordon Hill and Stuart Pearson both with 15 goals.

Despite spending close to a million pounds on Joe Jordan and Gordon McQueen - the results didnt improve and despite Hill being by far Uniteds best player in the 77/78 season - Sexton sold him to Derby (managed by Tommy Docherty) for £250.000. A move that did not go down well with the United-fans. United ended 10th with 42 points

78/79 was another poor season. There were some highlights - Gordon McQueen was a giant at the back and even scored 6 goals. And young Andy Ritchie scored incredible 10 goals in 16 starts. But United lost the FA-cup Final, and ended 9th in the league while suffering some nasty defeats in the process. (0-3 defeats to Everton, Bolton and Liverpool and 1-5 to Birmingham)

In 79/80 almost everything fell into place for Sexton - the signing of Ray Wilkins was a masterpiece and his 2 Leeds United-signings were both brilliant. Jordan scored 13 goals and McQueen scored an incredible 9 goals. Bailey in goal, Nicholl at left back, McQueen and Buchan in central defense and Albiston on the right. Coppell, Wilkins, McIlroy, Thomas, Macari and Jordan. And United came within 2 points of winning the league. But yet again, the strength was the defense - not the attack. United only scored 65 goals in 42 matches.

1980/81 everything fell apart. The first mistake was signing Garry Birtles to score goals - he was partnered with Joe Jordan up front. Jordan scored 15 goals - Birtles got none. Macari scored 9 goals, McIlroy 5 and Coppell 6 - but apart from that no player scored more than 4 goals. Wilkins got injured and only played 11 matches. Nikola Jovanovic which Sexton signed for £300.000 to replace Martin Buchan suffered from chronic back pain and only played 19 games before going back to Yugoslavia. The 7 wins at the end prevented it from being a total disaster of a season, but 51 goals in 42 was a tragedy. And after 33 games that season, United had actually just scored 37 goals. Defensively we were still solid - but we couldn't win football games. After 22 matches - we had won 6, drawn 14 and lost 2

So another £1 million had been wasted on a striker who didnt score and a football invalid - the fans hated him and we played the worst attacking football for decades. So yeah - there were a lot of reasons why Sexton had to go.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

The poll and this thread has always been heavily biased towards those that want him out. They are the ones shouting loudest and don't want to back down from the nonsense they've been spouting like "worst manager in the league". To many there isn't even a decision to make, never mind vote on.

Is there any evidence for this?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Yeah I know, Dave will have known his time was up as early as February, out of all the Cups, and next to no chance of UEFA Cup football the following season but it still felt wrong(at the time) to sack him off the back of seven straight wins at the end of the season. Quite possibly the only Manager, anywhere, ever, that has happened to.

Comparable to Van Gaal being sacked a couple of days after winning the FA Cup

 

[Withnail]

All I mean is that if the team will loose the remaining fixtures the first option of the poll would rise up again. Such a reckless thing to make a deep conclusion about the team's development right now considering we had an excellent run of results under previous managers and struggled to build a monumentum on that. However, the season seems to be over due to the virus.

If they lost the remaining fixtures he would deserve to be sacked.

 

[Leftback99]

Is there any evidence for this?

Do you really believe that if you asked everyone at our next game "do you want Solskjaer sacked immediately?" 35% would say yes?

 

[Sultan]

Do you really believe that if you asked everyone at our next game "do you want Solskjaer sacked immediately?" 35% would say yes?

I'm a match-goer and I'd say the questioner needs to be sectioned for asking such a pointless question.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Do you really believe that if you asked everyone at our next game "do you want Solskjaer sacked immediately?" 35% would say yes?

Are you talking about match going fans?

 

[Leftback99]

Are you talking about match going fans?

Are they different?

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Are they different?

Match going fans stand behind the manager no matter what. Moyes, Jose heck even LVG had support. Fans on the Caf don't have any such hangups (I don't mean this in a bad way). I don't think any side (Ole in or out) is louder. The poll just reflects the Caf's view.

 

[quethenoo]

Cheers!

 

[Leftback99]

Match going fans stand behind the manager no matter what. Moyes, Jose heck even LVG had support. Fans on the Caf don't have any such hangups (I don't mean this in a bad way). I don't think any side (Ole in or out) is louder. The poll just reflects the Caf's view.

The thread was started after a draw with Arsenal following the Rochdale cup game and defeat to West Ham. It has always been weighted towards sack and the place for those that want him sacked to vent. It reflects a lot of knee jerk votes after poor results, many of which have probably forgotten they've done it.

I don't think regular match going fans think differently to anyone else just because they sing and encourage the players and manager on match day.

 

[L1nk]

The thread was started after a draw with Arsenal following the Rochdale cup game and defeat to West Ham. It has always been weighted towards sack and the place for those that want him sacked to vent. It reflects a lot of knee jerk votes after poor results, many of which have probably forgotten they've done it.

I don't think regular match going fans think differently to anyone else just because they sing and encourage the players and manager on match day.

Both sides are kneejerk, it'll swing back the other way if we have a poor result against a poor side. It's just how this forum is, one loss and its SEE HE'S AWFUL, one win and its DO YOU SEE THE PLAN YET. Lingard awful, WORST PLAYER EVER, has 1 good game, MESSI LINGOD. It's just how people here are, for some reason.

 

[momo83]

Thinking with my head. I’m still cert

Both sides are kneejerk, it'll swing back the other way if we have a poor result against a poor side. It's just how this forum is, one loss and its SEE HE'S AWFUL, one win and its DO YOU SEE THE PLAN YET. Lingard awful, WORST PLAYER EVER, has 1 good game, MESSI LINGOD. It's just how people here are, for some reason.

I never thought he should have got the job full time, thought the reaction after the great run and night in Paris was embarrassing and was saying Ole out in the summer. I very happy he's proven me wrong in regards to us not being 8tn or lower, I think the reaction by from that have switched from out to in based on the past 10 matches is short term, just like I’d think anyone who goes from in to out based on a few bad results is stupid.

I hope Ole proves me wrong. He should get until October next season to do so. A start like this season and then he deserves to be sacked by October.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

The thread was started after a draw with Arsenal following the Rochdale cup game and defeat to West Ham. It has always been weighted towards sack and the place for those that want him sacked to vent. It reflects a lot of knee jerk votes after poor results, many of which have probably forgotten they've done it.

I don't think regular match going fans think differently to anyone else just because they sing and encourage the players and manager on match day.

This thread has equal number of Ole in and Ole out posts as far as I can see. It doesn't matter what us fans think anyway to be fair. Before the winter break Ole had us in a position worse than any manager after Fergie but the board seemed fully behind him. Our board has committed to this experiment and they will follow it to the bitter end (my personal opinion).

 

[Leftback99]

This thread has equal number of Ole in and Ole out posts as far as I can see. It doesn't matter what us fans think anyway to be fair. Before the winter break Ole had us in a position worse than any manager after Fergie but the board seemed fully behind him. Our board has committed to this experiment and they will follow it to the bitter end (my personal opinion).

Looking at the top post count in this thread (100+) it's dominated by posters that have wanted him out.

I agree, I think he'll be here next season and it has never been in much doubt regardless what fans thought.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

He's fielding 11 players now instead of the usual 10 with the consistent passenger the another at the starts or as impact subs. So that's a huge factor considering fool-proof trusts of repetitive games are given to that overall bad performances player.

Second has to do with the two January reinforcements with Bruno the man with the quick immediate impacts and huge influences to the team.

Tactically, Ole is still the same - heavy reliance on individuals, good thing is their morale is much better now and their performances improve. Ole's player selections are much better now and results show.

 

[hmchan]

Both sides are kneejerk, it'll swing back the other way if we have a poor result against a poor side. It's just how this forum is, one loss and its SEE HE'S AWFUL, one win and its DO YOU SEE THE PLAN YET. Lingard awful, WORST PLAYER EVER, has 1 good game, MESSI LINGOD. It's just how people here are, for some reason.

I'm not one of them but unfortunately the majority is. For me, no matter which stance you have, it is meaningless and shortsighted to change your vote based on individual results and I have already pointed that out as early as #9070. We are human, not robots. We analyze the game, not just vote "sack" after a defeat and "keep" after a win. Sad to say, many fans are incapable of doing that and just can't differentiate "ability" from "form", in terms of both managers and players.

Speaking of bias, there is always a tendency for immature kids to say to opposite camp is biased. In my city, the pro-establishment always accuses the pro-democratic of shouting the loudest and claims they have the backings of the silent majority, but they lose in every election. They fail to identify the situation and that's exactly what happening here. From what I see, the "sack now" vote has already dropped drastically from 7X% to 34.6%. Are these kneejerk votes?

 

[Striker10]

Back Ole 100% and that's with difficult owners/a budget whatever but we are still short in terms of players

 

[Class of 63]

It was actually a miracle that Sexton lasted as long as he did. In Dochertys last season United played good, attacking football and we ended 6th with 47 Points in 42 matches (equivalent to 65 Points today) - and we also won the FA Cup. Leading scorers were Gordon Hill and Stuart Pearson both with 15 goals.

Despite spending close to a million pounds on Joe Jordan and Gordon McQueen - the results didnt improve and despite Hill being by far Uniteds best player in the 77/78 season - Sexton sold him to Derby (managed by Tommy Docherty) for £250.000. A move that did not go down well with the United-fans. United ended 10th with 42 points

78/79 was another poor season. There were some highlights - Gordon McQueen was a giant at the back and even scored 6 goals. And young Andy Ritchie scored incredible 10 goals in 16 starts. But United lost the FA-cup Final, and ended 9th in the league while suffering some nasty defeats in the process. (0-3 defeats to Everton, Bolton and Liverpool and 1-5 to Birmingham)

In 79/80 almost everything fell into place for Sexton - the signing of Ray Wilkins was a masterpiece and his 2 Leeds United-signings were both brilliant. Jordan scored 13 goals and McQueen scored an incredible 9 goals. Bailey in goal, Nicholl at left back, McQueen and Buchan in central defense and Albiston on the right. Coppell, Wilkins, McIlroy, Thomas, Macari and Jordan. And United came within 2 points of winning the league. But yet again, the strength was the defense - not the attack. United only scored 65 goals in 42 matches.

1980/81 everything fell apart. The first mistake was signing Garry Birtles to score goals - he was partnered with Joe Jordan up front. Jordan scored 15 goals - Birtles got none. Macari scored 9 goals, McIlroy 5 and Coppell 6 - but apart from that no player scored more than 4 goals. Wilkins got injured and only played 11 matches. Nikola Jovanovic which Sexton signed for £300.000 to replace Martin Buchan suffered from chronic back pain and only played 19 games before going back to Yugoslavia. The 7 wins at the end prevented it from being a total disaster of a season, but 51 goals in 42 was a tragedy. And after 33 games that season, United had actually just scored 37 goals. Defensively we were still solid - but we couldn't win football games. After 22 matches - we had won 6, drawn 14 and lost 2

So another £1 million had been wasted on a striker who didnt score and a football invalid - the fans hated him and we played the worst attacking football for decades. So yeah - there were a lot of reasons why Sexton had to go.

Ah happy days, it wasn't what the club could do for us more what we could do for the club, and we did it with knobs on.

Think you've got the fullbacks on the wrong-side, though Albiston did make his debut at right-back, and his first few appearances in the League were there as well.

 

[wolvored]

I voted keep till the end of season and then put reassess in my assessment.

One thing Ole is doing right is getting the transfers right, in or out. You can also see improvement in certain players, especially Fred and Shaw. Matic has had a new lease of life. He has given Williams and Greenwood chances and they have proven they can handle it. McTom has also carried on improving.

We dont know whats going to happen with this season, but if there is no more matches and it is abandoned, then he should stay for the new season. Let him get shut of Rojo, Jones, Smalling, Sanchez, Lingard and Periera. Maybe even Pogba, De Gea and Mata might be gone as well. Let him hopefully bring in Grealish, Sancho, Zakaria Koulibally and Bellingham (press reports) or whoever he decides.

If we dont challenge for the title next season, then he can be shown the door. I have a good feeling about what is starting to emerge here. No egos in the team at the moment and all seem to play for one another. Even Martial smiles!

 

[RedRonaldo]

Definitely a keep.
All his signings are spot on, we improve as a team as season progress.

 

[Ekeke]

Top 4 or gone. If we cant finish above Chelsea or Wolves or someone, especially considering Chelsea's situation with the transfer ban and also appointing a new manager then he just hasnt done well enough

 

[Hughie77]

Let's just see how season ends, if it does? Top 4 is very much on, Going very well in Europa league, still in FA cup.
Team looks more settled players are fit, more options to start and bench. Andreas is no longer in from the start has been woeful in games. Rashford and Pogba back into the squad it's looking realy healthy. Those 2 additions in Jan, Bruno, Ingalo have been very good, both have made options better.

Same needed in summer window, then we've got a very very good squad.

 

[Foxbatt]

I think Ole is going to be here next season because the league is not going to go ahead.
I personally don't think Poch is the one but if Ole can get his act together and get us into CL then he should get his chance.

 

[stepic]

Let's just see how season ends, if it does? Top 4 is very much on, Going very well in Europa league, still in FA cup.
Team looks more settled players are fit, more options to start and bench. Andreas is no longer in from the start has been woeful in games. Rashford and Pogba back into the squad it's looking realy healthy. Those 2 additions in Jan, Bruno, Ingalo have been very good, both have made options better.

Same needed in summer window, then we've got a very very good squad.

the season has already ended

 

[Tarrou]

would be interesting to see a poll of;

if the season is voided, would you sack or keep Ole for next season?

just two options, no middle ground

 

[MackRobinson]

I'm not one of them but unfortunately the majority is. For me, no matter which stance you have, it is meaningless and shortsighted to change your vote based on individual results and I have already pointed that out as early as #9070. We are human, not robots. We analyze the game, not just vote "sack" after a defeat and "keep" after a win. Sad to say, many fans are incapable of doing that and just can't differentiate "ability" from "form", in terms of both managers and players.

Speaking of bias, there is always a tendency for immature kids to say to opposite camp is biased. In my city, the pro-establishment always accuses the pro-democratic of shouting the loudest and claims they have the backings of the silent majority, but they lose in every election. They fail to identify the situation and that's exactly what happening here. From what I see, the "sack now" vote has already dropped drastically from 7X% to 34.6%. Are these kneejerk votes?

The opposite can also be true. Fans could have mistaken Ole's "form" for his "ability".

Who is to say those who were Ole realized the team was progressing and they were harsh on him. Asking if they were kneejerk votes is a bit disingenuous...

 

[Withnail]

The opposite can also be true. Fans could have mistaken Ole's "form" for his "ability".

Who is to say those who were Ole realized the team was progressing and they were harsh on him. Asking if they were kneejerk votes is a bit disingenuous...

Given I imagine the vast majority of supporters want the team to play well and win things, it isn't knee jerk to change your mind and now want to keep a manager when he started to show signs that he's capable of building a team which can consistently perform, play well, score goals and win big games.

There's a misconception that anyone who was Ole out was totally against him no matter what when surprise surprise it's much more nuanced than that.

I'd agree with @Tarrou and would like to see a 'if the season ended now would you keep him'. Personally I think he's done enough to be given another window to keep going with the rebuild.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Dave Sexton probably thought the same in 1981 when he won the last seven League games of the season including wins at Everton and Liverpool.

Correct me if I”m wrong,but the quality of the football was apparently dire under Dave Sexton.We became a very defensive team that would grind out 1-0 wins and that was apparently unacceptable to Sir Matt and the board at that time.Over the last few months our performances have improved significantly.

I actually want Pochettino to take over,I still have serious reservations about Oles ability to take us back to the top...But I can’t see him being sacked if the season came to an end today.,,

 

[Foxbatt]

I don't think any United fan wants Ole to fail. But some of us think he does not have the capability to win trophies at the very top. Nothing he has shown so far has made me change my mind. Yes he did beat Pep a few times too. But I still think he has got his failings that will stop him being a top coach. Of course better players will make a team play better but his way of playing is not going to help us beat the very top teams. I have issues with the teams utilisation of space and also set pieces. Now Bruno and Martial made something out if it but what about the corners? So far we have never managed to get a near post flick. He should also forget about trying to play wingers in every game.
I sincerely hope that and if Pogba comes back, he will go for a midfield of Pogba, Bruno, Fred/ Scott and Matic and play either Rashford and Martial or Odion with either of them. Two up front.

 

[Class of 63]

Correct me if I”m wrong,but the quality of the football was apparently dire under Dave Sexton.We became a very defensive team that would grind out 1-0 wins and that was apparently unacceptable to Sir Matt and the board at that time.Over the last few months our performances have improved significantly.

I actually want Pochettino to take over,I still have serious reservations about Oles ability to take us back to the top...But I can’t see him being sacked if the season came to an end today.,,

Dave Sexton much like Ron Greenwood(England's Manager at the time) was before his time coaching/tactics wise but it wasn't everybodies cup of tea and compare to the football we played under The Doc previously it was a tad boring, but we did also play some great football at times.

No comment on Pochettino.

 

[Lentwood]

I can't believe anybody would still be Ole out after seeing evidence that (as about 40% of us have maintained throughout), Ole DID have a clear plan and it was only a matter of shifting out the very weak and bringing in a little more quality

Ultimately we had a very poor squad post-Jose (not that I'm blaming that all on Jose). We have several very weak players in the squad plus several who didn't want to be at the club.

Now, we have two good, hungry, dedicated players to choose from in most positions and it's only been 12 months

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Dave Sexton much like Ron Greenwood(England's Manager at the time) was before his time coaching/tactics wise but it wasn't everybodies cup of tea and compare to the football we played under The Doc previously it was a tad boring, but we did also play some great football at times.

No comment on Pochettino.

Oh okay cheers!I read somewhere that after the off the field shenanigans of Tommy Docherty the board and Sir Matt wanted a safe pair of hands.They wanted a decent,dour non controversial figure around the club and that’s why they went for Sexton...But they eventually got bored of his football and his personality so they then went for the colourful,larger than life Ron Atkinson...This is what I”ve read over the years...

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I'm really tired of seeing the "I can't believe 50% want to sack him"/ "I can't believe 50% want to keep this guy" type of comments. The forum is divided i can't believe some don't realise that

 

[dwd]

I'm really tired of seeing the "I can't believe 50% want to sack him"/ "I can't believe 50% want to keep this guy" type of comments. The forum is divided i can't believe some don't realise that

The irony is amazing.

 

[troylocker]

The irony is amazing.

I can't believe the level irony either

Seriously though:
Remove the poll as it is not relevant now. New poll or no poll, please.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

The irony is amazing.

it was deliberate..probably should have quoted it or put it in bold

 

[Foxbatt]

Well, he is going to be stuck here for the next season now because of the suspension of the league.
He is not going to get sacked now so may as well get rid of this poll and thread too.

 

[RooneyLegend]

I still say sack despite our form. We need a coach that's gonna be more demanding on the players. Somehow I feel like our players aren't at peak fitness and for me that's unforgivable.