Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[RUCK4444]

Fascinating how new narratives are emerging now. Ole is suddenly not responsible for transfers, the cultural reboot is Woodward's masterplan, anyone could do what ole has done.

Boggles the mind that fans of the club is unhappy watching a bona fide club legend proving himself as a manager at top level under a pressure not one single individual on this site is capable of imagining.

This. When you sit back and actually think about just how negative they are it really is baffling and sad.

Why support a club when you can’t get behind that. Club legend turning this juggernaut of a club around whilst beating the likes of Pep three times.
They just sit at home watching like some oppo fans through gritted teeth.

 

[Random Task]

Well, they are though, sort of.

Liverpool are 5th in long balls and 1st in counter attack goals. What makes their high press so effective is that they go straight into attack when they win the ball high and the opponent defense is not settled. That's the whole idea. If you press and chase to win the ball, only to start passing it sideways it kinda defeats the whole purpose of the high press

We high press too, just not to the same effect as Liverpool do.

 

[Bilbo]

Ahh, the mystical "qualities" that only you and other staunch Ole supporters are aware of.

Well, we are not there yet, but its looking increasingly like the proof is in the pudding

 

[lysglimt]

If Pochettino had the balls to sell Kane he might of had the same luxury!

I agree Poch never had the same transfer kitty as other managers, but the guy has spent about £200 million on players who haven't improved Spurs a lot - so it's not like he is a genious in the transfer market.

Foyth £10 mill, Jansen £20 mill, Sissoko £30 mill, Sanchez £35 mill, Llorente £12 mill, Aurier £25 mill, Nkoudo £10 mill, Njie £10 mill, Ndombele £60 mill (ok its early in his career but the signs are not promising)

Sure he has made 3-4 shrewd signings - but man has he spent a lot of money on crap.

 

[johanovic]

OGS is doing a great job in turning around a playing squad that was woeful with 9 players out already and more on the way out in the summer like Lingard. His buys have been good and if we are after Sancho,DM and Striker plus the young players continuing to step up I think we are on the verge of being able to break down teams that sit back against us. If Pogba really wants to stay and we would have a midfield from Fernandes,Fred,Pogba,McTominey,New DM plus youngsters we would have a very strong midfield options. In front of that midfield a attack group of Sancho,Rashford,Martial,New striker,James and Greenwood would be a very impressive pool to choose from.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

By the way, just me I suppose, but I wouldn't use so many condescending laughing smileys if I'd gotten as much wrong in recent months....

Ohhhhhh, what have I gotten wrong @Bilbo?

• Did I get it wrong when I claimed we should chill after a top December?
Then January happened.

• Did I get it wrong when I said we went into this season naive as feck? Benching Matic for Andreas and Lingard and thinking only about the future?
Then Matic came back, proved the management and most fans wrong and is now an extremely important player for us. And did we not think "feck the future, we need to think about the present" as I'd argued all season when we brought in Ighalo?

• Did I get it wrong when I made this thread, massively optimistic about our chances after we balanced out the squad that we so stupidly went into the season with?
Because since then, we seem to be a fecking shit tonne better.

• Did I get it wrong when I said, and still say, that we should wait until May before making any decisions and that Ole needed to prove after the January window that after spending 214m and balancing out his squad that he can win at least 50% of his PL games? Feck CL, showing progress is all that's important.

Which is wrong Bilbs?

As for Ed hiring Ole, well obviously man, he's the CEO so he's the only one who can, but you know full well it was SAF backed and that the idea was a SAF one.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Who are these managers you speak of? Do they intimately know the pressures and expectation at this club, will they hit the ground running and deliver results within weeks of arriving? Will they improve the existing players they inherit like Ole has? Will they rise to the occasion of the big games like Ole or fold? Will their recruitment be spot on like Ole? Will they give every promising youth product we have chances like Ole?

If not then I fail to see how these impatient fans will back him and it makes absolutely no sense to get rid of Ole now that we have started to make some progress.

I suppose your thinking Poch or Nagelsman? Whoever it may be, we have form for getting rid of managers and making a mess of things, before you know it we sack that manager, panic hire another who wants to go in a totally different direction. All while having no director of football to maintain the balance of the side.

The painfully slow progress we have made can very quickly be ripped apart.

I agree with your points in general, but regarding the part I've made bold.

It's amazing to beat the big teams, it really is. I agree. But there are far less big games than small games in the season. What's the point of taking 6pts off each of the top 4, if we go 50/50 for the rest of the season against the rest of the league, for example?

I would rewrite your bolded part to being "will a new manager NOT ONLY rise to the occasion of the big games but prove they can beat the rest of the teams in the league consistently"?

THAT is what wins titles. Only winning the big games wins you bragging rights if those wins exist in a vacuum. That's pretty small-time, to be honest.

Ideally, Ole will be the man to do both.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

If Pochettino had the balls to sell Kane he might of had the same luxury!

haha, you know full well Levy wears the transfer pants down there.

 

[Bilbo]

Ohhhhhh, what have I gotten wrong @Bilbo?

• Did I get it wrong when I claimed we should chill after a top December?
Then January happened.

• Did I get it wrong when I said we went into this season naive as feck? Benching Matic for Andreas and Lingard and thinking only about the future?
Then Matic came back, proved the management and most fans wrong and is now an extremely important player for us. And did we not think "feck the future, we need to think about the present" as I'd argued all season when we brought in Ighalo?

• Did I get it wrong when I made this thread, massively optimistic about our chances after we balanced out the squad that we so stupidly went into the season with?
Because since then, we seem to be a fecking shit tonne better.

• Did I get it wrong when I said, and still say, that we should wait until May before making any decisions and that Ole needed to prove after the January window that after spending 214m and balancing out his squad that he can win at least 50% of his PL games? Feck CL, showing progress is all that's important.

Which is wrong Bilbs?

As for Ed hiring Ole, well obviously man, he's the CEO so he's the only one who can, but you know full well it was SAF backed and that the idea was a SAF one.

Im disappointed. I thought you'd have spent way more than half an hour putting a response together.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Im disappointed. I thought you'd have spent way more than half an hour putting a response together.

It ok, I know the answer.

A: I was wrong for questioning Ole and every time I questioned or doubted him, I was wrong.

Ergo, I've "gotten much wrong in recent months". I'd argue January proved me more right than any of the blind faith apostles, I knew that sooner rather than later for Ole, that "the future could go feck itself for now". He wouldn't have had a job still if he didn't change his tune.

 

[Foxbatt]

Is he better than Rose or Nagelsmann?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Is he better than Rose or Nagelsmann?

Not for the first 5 months of the season he wasn't, but he's learning quick so I wouldn't want to answer that question until at least May.

 

[Foxbatt]

Not for the first 5 months of the season he wasn't, but he's learning quick so I wouldn't want to answer that question until at least May.

That's fair enough. I simply don't want to lose the opportunity to get a better manager if they are around. Klopp or Pep are not going to come. SAF wanted Ancelotti but he told SAF he had already committed to Real when we were looking for one those days.
Rose and Nagelsmann are not going to be at Dortmund and Leipzig next year respectively.

 

[Bilbo]

It ok, I know the answer.

A: I was wrong for questioning Ole and every time I questioned or doubted him, I was wrong.

Ergo, I've "gotten much wrong in recent months". I'd argue January proved me more right than any of the blind faith apostles, I knew that sooner rather than later for Ole, that "the future could go feck itself for now". He wouldn't have had a job still if he didn't change his tune.

See this is where you veer away from being an often decent poster. Do you really consider all of the Ole backers to be blind faith apostles? Does that have to be true, or could it just be that some people recognised things that were in motion that others didn't, and (most crucially) had the patience to sit tight and see it through? I certainly never considered my own backing blind faith, just as I don't now.

Oh - and he hasn't changed his tune. Not at all. That's just a narrative that you and many others are now creating to insulate yourselves against the over the top criticism that he has received from you all. He is doing everything the same. Same philosophy on players, same view to culture change, same stance on recruitment, same man-management. Now he has added a big piece of the puzzle in Bruno results are improving. Its no surprise whatsoever, and it doesn't mean that he is 'just now getting it right' as you are trying to spin, it just means that we are at a slightly more advanced stage of the same process.

 

[bond19821982]

We high press too, just not to the same effect as Liverpool do.

We don't ,as a team. That's one aspect he can improve massively. We really suck at collective pressing.

 

[crossy1686]

Is he better than Rose or Nagelsmann?

What have they won?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

That's fair enough. I simply don't want to lose the opportunity to get a better manager if they are around. Klopp or Pep are not going to come. SAF wanted Ancelotti but he told SAF he had already committed to Real when we were looking for one those days.
Rose and Nagelsmann are not going to be at Dortmund and Leipzig next year respectively.

Probably not no, but since Jan if Ole continues winning PL games with so many clean sheets and a win-rate of 60%... would you really wanna chance replacing someone who might just have made it click? or would you be excited about the future?

Keep an open mind I say.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

See this is where you veer away from being an often decent poster. Do you really consider all of the Ole backers to be blind faith apostles?

No. Just the ones that blamed the board and claimed his squad was dogshit and no better than 8th.

I should add @Bilbo that I don't consider you one of the apostles, but let's not make out that there hasn't been tonnes in here. You're a bloke who has pleaded patience every step of the way and if the season finishes as strong as it's been since 1st February, you have every right to be extremely smug for seeing the bigger picture. I think I recall you even pleaded patience with Moyes right?

Does that have to be true, or could it just be that some people recognised things that were in motion that others didn't, and (most crucially) had the patience to sit tight and see it through? I certainly never considered my own backing blind faith, just as I don't now.

Oh absolutely, there are plenty of posters who admitted to Ole's mistakes, admitted we could/should be doing better but that they wanted Ole to stay regardless because they could see what he was doing.

Oh - and he hasn't changed his tune. Not at all. That's just a narrative that you and many others are now creating to insulate yourselves against the over the top criticism that he has received from you all. He is doing everything the same.

Nar, Ighalo shown he changed his tune, abso-fecking-lutely, as does Matic. He realised you can't always just look after the future, what's happening now is vital. That's not a narrative, it's the bonafide truth and something I wish Ole had learnt as earlier as August.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

What have they won?

What has Robin Van Persie won as an international footballer?

Eder has won a European Championship and scored in the final I think. Therefore, Eder is the superior striker.

 

[Bilbo]

No. Just the ones that blamed the board and claimed his squad was dogshit and no better than 8th.

I should add @Bilbo that I don't consider you one of the apostles, but let's not make out that there hasn't been tonnes in here. You're a bloke who has pleaded patience every step of the way and if the season finishes as strong as it's been since 1st February, you have every right to be extremely smug for seeing the bigger picture. I think I recall you even pleaded patience with Moyes right?



Oh absolutely, there are plenty of posters who admitted to Ole's mistakes, admitted we could/should be doing better but that they wanted Ole to stay regardless because they could see what he was doing.



Nar, Ighalo shown he changed his tune, abso-fecking-lutely, as does Matic. He realised you can't always just look after the future, what's happening now is vital. That's not a narrative, it's the bonafide truth and something I wish Ole had learnt as earlier as August.

Yes I thought Moyes should have gotten another season - I stand by that. Doesn't make a steady backer of managers though if thats the implication. I wanted LVG & Mou gone.

Ighalo was signed because we were badly in need of a striker, and the Matic situation you keep plugging was just a man very out of form and not deserving a place in the team. Happens all the time in every club, and is not indicative of a change in philosophy. Its just spin.

 

[crossy1686]

What has Robin Van Persie won as an international footballer?

Eder has won a European Championship and scored in the final I think. Therefore, Eder is the superior striker.

Van Persie was a golden boot winner.

Surely Ranieri is a better manager than both Rose and Nagalsman then?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Ighalo was signed because we were badly in need of a striker, and the Matic situation you keep plugging was just a man very out of form and not deserving a place in the team. Happens all the time in every club, and is not indicative of a change in philosophy. Its just spin.

I've debated this to death on Matic though, he wasn't "out of form" at all. And how the hell were Jesse and Andreas "in form" then? Ighalo, yeah we desperately needed a striker, but I'd argue we did in the Summer also.

Matic was fuming in October because Ole had clearly alienated him, there's quotes and everything. You can spin it if you like but that's the truth.

 

[dirkey]

No. Just the ones that blamed the board and claimed his squad was dogshit and no better than 8th.

I should add @Bilbo that I don't consider you one of the apostles, but let's not make out that there hasn't been tonnes in here. You're a bloke who has pleaded patience every step of the way and if the season finishes as strong as it's been since 1st February, you have every right to be extremely smug for seeing the bigger picture. I think I recall you even pleaded patience with Moyes right?



Oh absolutely, there are plenty of posters who admitted to Ole's mistakes, admitted we could/should be doing better but that they wanted Ole to stay regardless because they could see what he was doing.



Nar, Ighalo shown he changed his tune, abso-fecking-lutely, as does Matic. He realised you can't always just look after the future, what's happening now is vital. That's not a narrative, it's the bonafide truth and something I wish Ole had learnt as earlier as August.

I think the big issue with this debate is that ... there are some who want Ole-in who will go to any lengths to defend him. Will defend everything about him.

There are some about Ole out who ... literally everything that goes wrong, is his fault.

But there are people in the middle who have balanced views, whichever way they lean towards his future. And there's good debate to be had there, and good opinions.

The problem is that it tends to be the former two who take over threads, and it just becomes mind number. "Hater" and the like get thrown around. People claim you're not a proper fan etc etc. Basically it just descends into abuse if you happen to take a different viewpoint to some of these people.

 

[Bilbo]

I've debated this to death on Matic though, he wasn't "out of form" at all. And how the hell were Jesse and Andreas "in form" then? Ighalo, yeah we desperately needed a striker, but I'd argue we did in the Summer also.

Matic was fuming in October because Ole had clearly alienated him, there's quotes and everything. You can spin it if you like but that's the truth.

Debating something to death is not the same as proving a point, is it. Matic was playing very poorly - thats not spin anymore than 'Player not playing is unhappy' quotes are a signal of a manager freezing someone out. You're reaching.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Debating something to death is not the same as proving a point, is it. Matic was playing very poorly - thats not spin anymore than 'Player not playing is unhappy' quotes are a signal of a manager freezing someone out. You're reaching.

Ok @Bilbo, I'll do it again then.

Andreas: 6 PL starts until October 6th. 2 W, 2D, 2L (33.33% win-rate)
Jesse: 4 PL starts until October 6th. 1 W, 2D, 1L (25% win-rate)
Matic: 2 PL starts until October 6th, then injured. 1 W, 1L (50% win-rate)

Where was Matic even getting chance to play "very poorly" as you claim? He was clearly frozen out and Ole clearly wanted to use youth/academy products and give them a chance. You simply can't look at the stats above and claim anything else unless you're spinning it. Some players have mentioned Ole is learning and I've little doubt the Matic/Andreas/Lingard treatment it part of that.
It gets worse if we go back to last season (which is a very weird way to judge "playing poorly/out of form" anyway) as Matic was brilliant during Ole great run and was injured and barely played during that dogshit finish to the season.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Van Persie was a golden boot winner.

Surely Ranieri is a better manager than both Rose and Nagalsman then?

You are the one who posed the question of 'what has he won' suggesting that trophies (and no, a golden boot doesn't trump an actual winners medal in that instance) are what you gauge a manager on.

So while I wouldn't necessarily consider Ranieri better than those two, you definitely do and you also consider him better than Ole because he's won a PL title, too.

You've answered your own question. Don't project your criteria onto others.

 

[ReddBalls]

Matic was fuming in October because Ole had clearly alienated him, there's quotes and everything. You can spin it if you like but that's the truth.

It's not a fact. Matic lost his place to McTominay and Fred (not Pereira and Lingard as you absurdedly keeps repeating), and had to step up to win back his place.

If there ever was an evidence of good management it's how Ole has handled Matic and Fred. Both are flying.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It's not a fact. Matic lost his place to McTominay and Fred (not Pereira and Lingard as you absurdedly keeps repeating), and had to step up to win back his place.

Has there ever been a more misinformed post on redcafe? I don't think so @ReddBalls.

Fred didn't even start a PL game until after Matic got injured in October. Before then he was often on the bench with Matic whilst the management preferred to play Lingard or Andreas. When Matic came back from injury, he got himself a start in the busy festive period and started instantly showing how daft we were alienating him at the start of the season during that shit run of just 2 wins from 9 games.

"Absurd" is coming here and making a post like this without even fact checking it.

 

[Withnail]

Around a month ago I finally changed from Ole in to the closest option to see how things are at the end of the season.
I see no reason to change that just yet. Although he has shown he can motivate the team and that these players really are putting in a shift for him.

If this good run continues til the end of the season, provided we get on, and there isn't a drop-off then I'll all for giving him another season.

As for the Matic debate, he's still slow and will get slower. I'm concerned that much of his renaissance could be down to the rest he got whilst being 'frozen out'. I'm not sure he's up to a full season in the first team and would hope if we are keeping him we bring in a CDM who can lighten the load.

 

[crossy1686]

You are the one who posed the question of 'what has he won' suggesting that trophies (and no, a golden boot doesn't trump an actual winners medal in that instance) are what you gauge a manager on.

So while I wouldn't necessarily consider Ranieri better than those two, you definitely do and you also consider him better than Ole because he's won a PL title, too.

You've answered your own question. Don't project your criteria onto others.

So if Rose or Nagalsman are better managers that Solskjaer, what criteria are you judging them on?

Did you also want Jardim when he was at Monaco?

Even better question, what makes them the right manager for Manchester United?

 

[He'sRaldo]

It's hard to say Ole's done a good job overall, despite me really wanting to. I think he's been lucky not to lose his job, and has slowly rectified mistakes which would have gotten others sacked at this point. And I'll be honest, that's the main thing that gives me encouragement. I think he's done a job right now, and with more time could eventually upgrade to doing a good job (if we were to try and maintain the standards we usually hold).

I went back and watched some key matches in the unbeaten run, and my previous concerns weren't alleviated as much as I'd like. The interesting thing to me is, if he were to figure out what he needs to, he'd be one of the best in the world and probably the best manager we could get since he understands the club's values. However, if he doesn't, we probably would need to replace him soon, swiftly and decisively, and build on what he's already done.

All in all, it's a tricky situation since whatever we do needs to be decisive, as some of our current best players are getting very close to their peak years, and we need to maximize that without dilly-dallying. At the start of the season, I was mostly keep, until I noticed the problems which have made me hover at around 50-50 till now. We'll see at the end of the season.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Do I detect the sense that some fans were so burnt by Mourinho (living in a hotel, “heritage” etc) that they are afraid to appoint an outsider as manager?

Personally, I would still look for an upgrade in May as I cannot imagine us winning the league under Ole (the only real criterion for a United manager) but, if/when we do climb back to the top in the next couple of years, Ole will definitely have played his part.

 

[Foxbatt]

So if Rose or Nagalsman are better managers that Solskjaer, what criteria are you judging them on?

Did you also want Jardim when he was at Monaco?

Even better question, what makes them the right manager for Manchester United?

Because I can see for myself how their teams play. Leipzig is the quarters of the CL now. Same with Dortmund. They both took unfancied sides fairly high up into the EL and CL.
They both play attractive attacking football. Both are young progressive managers.
DeMatteo won the CL but is he a better coach than Ole? I don't think so.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

So if Rose or Nagalsman are better managers that Solskjaer, what criteria are you judging them on?

Did you also want Jardim when he was at Monaco?

Even better question, what makes them the right manager for Manchester United?

What the FECK are you on about, lad?

I am not the one who mentioned them!!!! You responded to a guy who mentioned them asking what they had won.

I responded to you not recommending them but showing how useless your argument is by naming a shit player that has won something not achieved by a top player.

You then mentioned Ranieri who BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION must be better than Ole because he's won more illustrious titles!

Mate back down, you've lost this one. No point.

 

[crossy1686]

Because I can see for myself how their teams play. Leipzig is the quarters of the CL now. Same with Dortmund. They both took unfancied sides fairly high up into the EL and CL.
They both play attractive attacking football. Both are young progressive managers.
DeMatteo won the CL but is he a better coach than Ole? I don't think so.

There is no evidence at this point to suggest picking them up and placing them in charge of United with a different set or players, expectations, league etc would result in anything near the results they managed to get at their current clubs.
I keep hearing this progressive/modern manager nonsense but no one has been able to define it yet.

 

[crossy1686]

What the FECK are you on about, lad?

I am not the one who mentioned them!!!! You responded to a guy who mentioned them asking what they had won.

I responded to you not recommending them but showing how useless your argument is by naming a shit player that has won something not achieved by a top player.

You then mentioned Ranieri who BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION must be better than Ole because he's won more illustrious titles!

Mate back down, you've lost this one. No point.

You suggest Rose and Nagalsman were better managers. If you can’t back that up with anything other than a feeling then that’s fine, just say so.

 

[Withnail]

You suggest Rose and Nagalsman were better managers. If you can’t back that up with anything other than a feeling then that’s fine, just say so.

He literally just told you that it wasn't him who said that. It was the other bloke

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

If Ole gets champions league qualification/4th then he deserves to stay. We'd have gone from 6th last season to 4th or winning the Europa league trophy which is good progress.

On the other hand, Ole has spent 200m on a squad that came 6th and taking them to a position less than 4th is not good enough. You can also consider how managers like Pochettino and Klopp spent a lesser amount than that to get their respective clubs to top 4. You'd have to question why Ole deserves another additional 200m when he couldn't make much progress with the initial one he was given. The board may not be looking at how he has raised the team spirit or how the players like him or how Fred has improved or the unfortunate injuries he's had this season. If he doesn't make top 4, the fact will be he has spent 200m on a squad that came 6th and all he could do is take them to 5th(or 6th again)

 

[Bilbo]

Ok @Bilbo, I'll do it again then.

Andreas: 6 PL starts until October 6th. 2 W, 2D, 2L (33.33% win-rate)
Jesse: 4 PL starts until October 6th. 1 W, 2D, 1L (25% win-rate)
Matic: 2 PL starts until October 6th, then injured. 1 W, 1L (50% win-rate)

Where was Matic even getting chance to play "very poorly" as you claim? He was clearly frozen out and Ole clearly wanted to use youth/academy products and give them a chance. You simply can't look at the stats above and claim anything else unless you're spinning it. Some players have mentioned Ole is learning and I've little doubt the Matic/Andreas/Lingard treatment it part of that.
It gets worse if we go back to last season (which is a very weird way to judge "playing poorly/out of form" anyway) as Matic was brilliant during Ole great run and was injured and barely played during that dogshit finish to the season.

Since I've accused you of spin you have used the same word back at me more than once. Are you a politician? Just have a conversation.

I was almost tempted to go back and look at some data to try to build a response, but then I read pages 5, 9 & 11 of his performance thread and I wondered why I'm bothering. Go and have a look. Its exactly how I remember it, and your argument is a nonsense. Matic wasn't playing because every time he did he looked pants. He played in a few of our early season cup matches and was off the pace, immobile, just not contributing enough. What on earth win rate has to do with any of that is beyond me. That is spin.

I'm not attacking the player here. Maybe he was carrying something. Its only even a remotely interesting discussion point because you seem to be banging the drum that Ole used to ignore him because hes a shit manager (hence your constant criticism) and now he is using him because hes a much better manager (hence your softening on the matter). This isnt even about Matic or Ole, its about you chasing a reputation on here.

 

[He'sRaldo]

If Ole gets champions league qualification/4th then he deserves to stay. We'd have gone from 6th last season to 4th or winning the Europa league trophy which is good progress.

On the other hand, Ole has spent 200m on a squad that came 6th and taking them to a position less than 4th is not good enough. You can also consider how managers like Pochettino and Klopp spent a lesser amount than that to get their respective clubs to top 4. You'd have to question why Ole deserves another additional 200m when he couldn't make much progress with the initial one he was given. The board may not be looking at how he has raised the team spirit or how the players like him or how Fred has improved or the unfortunate injuries he's had this season. If he doesn't make top 4, the fact will be he has spent 200m on a squad that came 6th and all he could do is take them to 5th(or 6th again)

The top 4/ CL point is debatable to me, because isn't that the same mentality which left us sacking and keeping at the wrong times in the past? We need to change from that.

IMO, the metric should be clear, definable on the pitch influence which boosts the players we already have and makes us play better as a collective. If I'm honest, I haven't seen that yet.