Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[dirkey]

Do you feel the same when other mid table teams get a win against a top 4 team? It happens all the time and the general consensus is that said team raised their game and played above their level as it "their cup final". Is it not beyond the realms of possibility that that's what we are seeing at United. Players and coaches motivating themselves and playing above their level for a few games a season while they don't have that same hunger or desire in the other fixtures.

To me that's what it seems to be and that further compounds my worries that Solksjaer, in spite of his positive spin simply has the mindset and ability of a mid table manager and the club and squad is settling at that level.

It does happen when other mid table teams do it ... but do they do it as consistently as we've done it this year? No is the answer. It's not like we're catching lighting in a bottle. We've consistently overperformed expectations against the top 6.

I don't think it's a desire thing. I think it comes down to not having a player who can pick a pass to unlock a team that's sitting deep, allied to Ole not coming up with something tactically to help break them down.

 

[Bobcat]

Do you feel the same when other mid table teams get a win against a top 4 team? It happens all the time and the general consensus is that said team raised their game and played above their level as it "their cup final". Is it not beyond the realms of possibility that that's what we are seeing at United. Players and coaches motivating themselves and playing above their level for a few games a season while they don't have that same hunger or desire in the other fixtures.

To me that's what it seems to be and that further compounds my worries that Solksjaer, in spite of his positive spin simply has the mindset and ability of a mid table manager and the club and squad is settling at that level.

No, i think you are spot on, the question is why though? Why do we only turn up in the big games and why don't we seem to give a flying feck when a "lesser team" is on the other side. Is it a failure on Ole's part to motivate them properly? Player simply dont give a feck? A bit of both?

 

[dirkey]

No, i think you are spot on, the question is why though? Why do we only turn up in the big games and why don't we seem to give a flying feck when a "lesser team" is on the other side. Is it a failure on Ole's part to motivate them properly? Player simply dont give a feck? A bit of both?

I think it's more that we have players who can damage teams when they have a bit of space. However, when teams sit back against us, we've no-one who can pick a pass to unlock them.

 

[AneRu]

No mate i've never been to Paris

 

[Bilbo]

I don't think many have issues with people having opposing views. It's natural and this place would be boring if we all agreed. Only speaking for myself, but I'm sure others will agree, the issue I see is that many supporters of the manager seem to be based in pure emotion and nostalgia and they often take the top red approach when they are drawn into a debate. Langster's posts typifies this.

Most arguments for Out are based on objective facts. @Regulus Arcturus Black regularly makes balanced detailed posts outlining shortcomings but are often ignored and then the same 3/4 posters appear with the same tired lines about patience and the United Way. In the months of back and forth in the thread I can't think of a single post supporting the manager that uses tangible facts in his defence. We often see goal posts shifted and history rewritten to try and excuse Ole's shortcomings.

Well, at the risk of getting drawn into another debate about this, I will just reiterate that my own personal stance on this has not changed since we kicked off against Chelsea back In August. The squad is in a dire position, I like and agree with Ole's view on the type of players we should be recruiting and I think he will build us a very good squad. We've been crying out for some focus and planning in our recruitment and he will bring that. For me, that is more important than where we finish this season, so the draws and losses don't particularly bother me as much as most. I still love watching us play and in fact I look forward to our games more now than I have in years.

I'm giving him, well, not quite a free pass this season, but as close to it as I probably ever could, and I actually think he's done a pretty good job of navigating us through this season so far with the injuries and shortcomings in the team. I don't care about win rate, or his CV, or that he played for us, or how Klopp did in his 1st season, or all of the other dross that gets dissected on here daily, because I completely believe that what is being done at the moment will prove to be a benchmark to getting us back to what we were, and I won't be swayed from that belief. I've been through enough seasons as a fan that one lean season is not a big deal in the wider picture if it gets us back on the right tracks.

My free pass that I referred to expires in August. If we are not putting together consistent results by end of October I'll want a change, but until then I'm all in on this. I realise that you or others will want to pick this post apart. Feel free to do that, but it wont change my mind any more than I can convince you of what I think. You talk about people using tangible facts to support this, but what facts are there to use when results aren't fantastic at the moment? Call it gut feeling, or instinct, or whatever else you want. My support of Ole is because I like his approach, I understand that it will take time, and I agree with what he is doing.

 

[b82REZ]

No, i think you are spot on, the question is why though? Why do we only turn up in the big games and why don't we seem to give a flying feck when a "lesser team" is on the other side. Is it a failure on Ole's part to motivate them properly? Player simply dont give a feck? A bit of both?

100% a bit of both, however the buck stops with the manager and he has to be held accountable for not motivating the players properly or building a squad that is mentally weak.

One of my my major concerns of Ole is he has low standards. Using our last manager as the barometer he managed to get a tune out of the players against the "lesser" teams, infact that's where he gained the majority of his points. Mourinho shared a similar philosophy as SAF in this regard. Beat the smaller teams come what may and see what happens against the top 4 clubs as the margins were often so fine. That philosophy saw Fergie generally have poor results against the big clubs but no one will question his credentials and trophy cabinet.

If the team are not performing against 90% of the league major questions have to be asked of the manager.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

100% a bit of both, however the buck stops with the manager and he has to be held accountable for not motivating the players properly or building a squad that is mentally weak.

One of my my major concerns of Ole is he has low standards. Using our last manager as the barometer he managed to get a tune out of the players against the "lesser" teams, infact that's where he gained the majority of his points. Mourinho shared a similar philosophy as SAF in this regard. Beat the smaller teams come what may and see what happens against the top 4 clubs as the margins were often so fine. That philosophy saw Fergie generally have poor results against the big clubs but no one will question his credentials and trophy cabinet.

If the team are not performing against 90% of the league major questions have to be asked of the manager.

Its definitely both but a good manager finds ways to win. The aim of a football game is to win, no matter what - if he doesn't have the players to pick passes for fast forwards, I'm sorry, he needs to throw a CF in there who can attack crosses - perhaps Odion Ighalo will solve this and will highlight the need for a different type of striker in the squad. Anything, but he has to win games, and he isn't doing that. We'd all prefer to not have to resort to that type of basic footy, but we'd all much prefer to see United being successful again.

And ultimately, that will be his downfall, come the summer. He has no Plan B, whatsoever.

 

[UnitedSofa]

I really don't think any of this matters at this stage anyway. It seems blatantly obvious he's gone at the end of the season once we can get Poch, thank feck.

Yep. It really does seem like a done deal to me, so this is all largely irrelevant.

What's interesting to me though is I've seen a number of Ole in backers downplaying Poch's achievements, or his credentials as a manager which I do find odd. I guess we've all got biases, we're not robots. Poster earlier said we were all 'screaming for Jose', but that's not true I never wanted Mourinho at the helm, although I would never call him a bad manager. I find it curious that anyone can look at what Poch did at Spurs and Southampton though and consider him an average manager. But is probably best placed in another thread, just pointing out the fact that people are downplaying Poch - while backing Ole - only makes their argument even weaker.

Would love to have your optimism

One picture of Poch with Neil Ashton is all it takes yh?

wow, how easily are we convinced.....

 

[roonster09]

Would love to have your optimism

One picture of Poch with Neil Ashton is all it takes yh?

wow, how easily are we convinced.....

There are multiple reports which says Poch wants ManUtd job and also ManUtd wants Poch.

 

[Massive Spanner]

There are multiple reports which says Poch wants ManUtd job and also ManUtd wants Poch.

When you say it like that it sounds so romantic.

 

[roonster09]

When you say it like that it sounds so romantic.

Now you said it, it looks like that.

 

[pocco]

In here and on less reputable forums maybe, but not in the real world

And if we sneak into T4 only because others have under performed, who cares?

I care. When Jose finished 2nd and said it was one of the greatest achievements he had made, people laughed.

I want to see huge improvements this season, starting at Stamford Bridge, if I were to even consider keeping Ole as a good idea. We've fallen for it already by giving him the permanent job after a string of good results that meant nothing in the end.

 

[Gehrman]

Is this season a write off?

According to Ole it is. This is season just for assesing which players that should be here next season or not. According to him anyway.

 

[90 + 5min]

Might as well sell everyone and buy the whole everton / Sheffield lots. A Pogba and Lukaku combined would have bought the whole sheffield team. Go ahead, calculate how much Sheffield team cost.

More balanced?
Better central midfield?

We have spend 150m +50M and you're telling me ole the visionary can't even field a more balanced midfield than fecking sheffield Wednesday that just got promoted?

Why is Leicester infront of Tottenham? Because they have a manager that actually knows what he's doing, and that's also why Everton, and even Tottenham now leapfrogged us while we're sliding into relegation fight. Don't tell me ole needs 3 years, 4 more players, and another half a million for us to finally be able to say "we deserved to be ahead of Sheffield Wednesday

So you mean that the more something "cost" it is better? Oh. Cost has nothing to do with worth and worth for a team. You can cost 100milion and play worse than someone who cost 10milion.

So Rodgers is better then Mourinho and Pochettino? Am I getting you right?

Sheffield Wedensday? I hope no Sheffield United fans see that.

Finally, if a new manager comes in, you expect us going for titles without any signings? Or do you think he or she should get money and time? And if you think he or she should be getting money and time why is it that Solskjaer should not get that? Because, you can't say that one year is enough looking at where we were when Solskjaer took over. We need players. Paying for a almost new defensiv line doesn't take away other problem areas. Like midfield. We had big problems looking at the squad and you have to start from somewhere.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

According to Ole it is. This is season just for assesing which players that should be here next season or not. According to him anyway.

I know, and 2months ago, as well pretty much. This is the most annoying thing for me, personally - every single manager in the Premier League is 'assessing his players for next season's squad'. It's part of the bloody overall job of being the manager, it's not the main focus of the role and it's certainly not what an entire season of football revolves around.

It'd be like me telling my bosses that I haven't conducted my main duties this week in work because I've been busy 'checking and sending emails'. No mate, that's a basic element of your job, not your main duty. It goes without saying that Ole should be assessing the squad for next season but that should be an afterthought, his main duty is to get results and propel us to the next level.

 

[Gehrman]

Ole has been a manager for about 10 years.

Before he became interim manager here, who would have Ole on a list on the top 50 best managers in the world? When he is sacked, do you think any biggish club would even think about signing him?

It seems that having our worst results in 30 years have somehow elevated him in the echleon of elite managers in the world. Even some poster claim that only Pep and Klopp are better. It's mental.

 

[Bilbo]

I know, and 2months ago, as well pretty much. This is the most annoying thing for me, personally - every single manager in the Premier League is 'assessing his players for next season's squad'. It's part of the bloody overall job of being the manager, it's not the main focus of the role and it's certainly not what an entire season of football revolves around.

It'd be like me telling my bosses that I haven't conducted my main duties this week in work because I've been busy 'checking and sending emails'. No mate, that's a basic element of your job, not your main duty. It goes without saying that Ole should be assessing the squad for next season but that should be an afterthought, his main duty is to get results and propel us to the next level.

Its pretty obvious that this quote was designed to light a fuse under certain players. This season isn't about assessing the squad, its about building a squad.

 

[b82REZ]

So you mean that the more something "cost" it is better? Oh. Cost has nothing to do with worth and worth for a team. You can cost 100milion and play worse than someone who cost 10milion.

So Rodgers is better then Mourinho and Pochettino? Am I getting you right?

Sheffield Wedensday? I hope no Sheffield United fans see that.

Finally, if a new manager comes in, you expect us going for titles without any signings? Or do you think he or she should get money and time? And if you think he or she should be getting money and time why is it that Solskjaer should not get that? Because, you can't say that one year is enough looking at where we were when Solskjaer took over. We need players. Paying for a almost new defensiv line doesn't take away other problem areas. Like midfield. We had big problems looking at the squad and you have to start from somewhere.

You've had this pointed out to you numerous times by numerous posters. Patience is earned not granted blindly. IF Solskjaer was translating his vision on the pitch many of us, myself included, would be willing to patient with him as there would be a reason to be. But as it stands 14 months into the job we are worse off in every measurable metric and still with no discernable style. Even Ole's biggest supporters struggle to explain what his style is and what his rebuild constitutes.

You keep going on about where we were when Ole took over as if that somehow strengthens your case, but there's no way around it, we are worse off. A weaker squad, less points, a less experienced manager and supposedly he still needs 2 more transfer windows to instill his vision on the team. Based on available evidence he doesn't deserve it because we're moving backwards.

Solksjaer has been backed in the windows, so don't try that line. He's spent 200 million and I couldn't point to a single time I've thought, "wow he's made us better". Maguire is at best a modest upgrade on Smalling, James is a squad player and it's completely unfair on him how much he's been relied upon, AWB is a distinct improvement and I like the player, but also won't be surprised if he's not our starting RB in a few years.

 

[b82REZ]

Its pretty obvious that this quote was designed to light a fuse under certain players. This season isn't about assessing the squad, its about building a squad.

Wasn't that said after Everton last season? Yet we still have the majority of that squad. Ole talks a big game but is not translating it in another way

 

[Bilbo]

Wasn't that said after Everton last season? Yet we still have the majority of that squad. Ole talks a big game but is not translating it in another way

Since that Everton game we have sold 8 first team squad players and added 5 new ones. I'm sure we can expect another group coming in and going out this summer. The squad will be largely unrecognisable

 

[sunama]

According to Ole it is. This is season just for assesing which players that should be here next season or not. According to him anyway.

If Ole stays, next season will also be a write-off and shall be used to assess players for the following season.
This will continue until he is fired or gets a lucky run of results.

My big target, who I want out remains Woodward, though.
With a new regime at the helm, and Woodward gone, Ole's performance target will be raised and he will either be forced to achieve this or will be fired.
While Woodward is in charge, he will ensure that we never compete for the title, unless the manager flukes his way into that situation.

 

[Sky1981]

So you mean that the more something "cost" it is better? Oh. Cost has nothing to do with worth and worth for a team. You can cost 100milion and play worse than someone who cost 10milion.

So Rodgers is better then Mourinho and Pochettino? Am I getting you right?

Sheffield Wedensday? I hope no Sheffield United fans see that.

Finally, if a new manager comes in, you expect us going for titles without any signings? Or do you think he or she should get money and time? And if you think he or she should be getting money and time why is it that Solskjaer should not get that? Because, you can't say that one year is enough looking at where we were when Solskjaer took over. We need players. Paying for a almost new defensiv line doesn't take away other problem areas. Like midfield. We had big problems looking at the squad and you have to start from somewhere.

We need a new manager

 

[Sky1981]

If Ole stays, next season will also be a write-off and shall be used to assess players for the following season.
This will continue until he is fired or gets a lucky run of results.

My big target, who I want out remains Woodward, though.
With a new regime at the helm, and Woodward gone, Ole's performance target will be raised and he will either be forced to achieve this or will be fired.
While Woodward is in charge, he will ensure that we never compete for the title, unless the manager flukes his way into that situation.

If Woodward gone. It'll be another new slate for ole. New dof, new regime,.let's see what he can do now we have a proper dof.

 

[red4ever 79]

Since that Everton game we have sold 8 first team squad players and added 5 new ones. I'm sure we can expect another group coming in and going out this summer. The squad will be largely unrecognisable
Who are the 8 first teamers that have been sold

 

[red4ever 79]

Who are the 8 first teamers

 

[Roboc7]

Ole’s gone at end of the season based on current performance, no other scenario if things don’t get better. Whilst there is hope of top four to cling to he’ll continue to get a fairly easy ride but that will change, lose to Chelsea and narrative in media will start to change.

Ole wasn’t a good manager before he got here, hasn’t been one since he joined so he has to prove he can be in future. So far he’s failing by quite a big margin so he doesn’t deserve and won’t get more time.

Whatever people think about Poch he’s a much better manager and he’s available and in the summer so it’s inevitable unless things improve.

 

[b82REZ]

Since that Everton game we have sold 8 first team squad players and added 5 new ones. I'm sure we can expect another group coming in and going out this summer. The squad will be largely unrecognisable

A grand total of 4 players in that squad were let go and I'm being generous with those figures because 2 of them will be returning eventually.

 

[90 + 5min]

You've had this pointed out to you numerous times by numerous posters. Patience is earned not granted blindly. IF Solskjaer was translating his vision on the pitch many of us, myself included, would be willing to patient with him as there would be a reason to be. But as it stands 14 months into the job we are worse off in every measurable metric and still with no discernable style. Even Ole's biggest supporters struggle to explain what his style is and what his rebuild constitutes.

You keep going on about where we were when Ole took over as if that somehow strengthens your case, but there's no way around it, we are worse off. A weaker squad, less points, a less experienced manager and supposedly he still needs 2 more transfer windows to instill his vision on the team. Based on available evidence he doesn't deserve it because we're moving backwards.

Solksjaer has been backed in the windows, so don't try that line. He's spent 200 million and I couldn't point to a single time I've thought, "wow he's made us better". Maguire is at best a modest upgrade on Smalling, James is a squad player and it's completely unfair on him how much he's been relied upon, AWB is a distinct improvement and I like the player, but also won't be surprised if he's not our starting RB in a few years.

I have never said he hasn't been backed. I say that we have to buy more. And any manager that comes will have to buy. I don't get this sudden liking for Smalling. Don't people look at Roma games? He is still same old Smalling except that he plays in a league where it is easier to defend. I like his personality and he could have been here as backup but stating that Maguire is at best modest upgrade is for me wrong. Maguire is a leader. He don't shy away from duties and never hides. He has his negative sides but is lot better then Smalling.

Yes, I do point at patience. Because it is important. Any other manager that comes have to have time. If you put Guardiola in United he would need time. Whoever you put needs time. And time is not one year. I, for example, thought vanGaal needed more time and should have been given. Mourinho would have had more time if he didn't "sacked himself". Like every other project you need time. If you are a baby you need time to learn to walk. If you are buliding a house you need time to build. Now, there is other factors that make time more or less long. Like owners. Like managers. But however you turn it, you need time.

Style? Winning back ball early. Possesion (almost every game we have had more %) and trying fast fluid football when attacking. Not hard to see. Do we have players for that? Not really. And when injuries come we are struggling even more. But saying we don't have system? I don't want to go and make myself as some football guru but it is not that hard to see what Solskjaer is trying and what is lacking for his plan to work the best way.

 

[red4ever 79]

A grand total of 4 players in that squad were let go and I'm being generous with those figures because 2 of them will be returning eventually.

Smalling Rojo and Sanchez will all come back and it will be hard to shift them because of their wages. This notion that Ole removed lots of deadwood is misleading. The only deadwood shifted on a permanent basis are Fellaini and Young.

 

[b82REZ]

I have never said he hasn't been backed. I say that we have to buy more. And any manager that comes will have to buy. I don't get this sudden liking for Smalling. Don't people look at Roma games? He is still same old Smalling except that he plays in a league where it is easier to defend. I like his personality and he could have been here as backup but stating that Maguire is at best modest upgrade is for me wrong. Maguire is a leader. He don't shy away from duties and never hides. He has his negative sides but is lot better then Smalling.

Yes, I do point at patience. Because it is important. Any other manager that comes have to have time. If you put Guardiola in United he would need time. Whoever you put needs time. And time is not one year. I, for example, thought vanGaal needed more time and should have been given. Mourinho would have had more time if he didn't "sacked himself". Like every other project you need time. If you are a baby you need time to learn to walk. If you are buliding a house you need time to build. Now, there is other factors that make time more or less long. Like owners. Like managers. But however you turn it, you need time.

Style? Winning back ball early. Possesion (almost every game we have had more %) and trying fast fluid football when attacking. Not hard to see. Do we have players for that? Not really. And when injuries come we are struggling even more. But saying we don't have system? I don't want to go and make myself as some football guru but it is not that hard to see what Solskjaer is trying and what is lacking for his plan to work the best way.

I want some of what you're smoking because that is pure fantasy.

 

[b82REZ]

Smalling Rojo and Sanchez will all come back and it will be hard to shift them because of their wages. This notion that Ole removed lots of deadwood is misleading. The only deadwood shifted on a permanent basis are Fellaini and Young.

But with more time he might have got Sanchez out on a 2 year loan and only have us paying 30% of his wages instead of half. He just needs time to clear the deadwood properly.

Am I doing this right?

 

[red4ever 79]

But with more time he might have got Sanchez out on a 2 year loan and only have us paying 30% of his wages instead of half. He just needs time to clear the deadwood properly.

Am I doing this right?

You sure are. Let's also assume Herrera and Lukaku were deadwood even though neither were replaced and both would walk into our team today

 

[Bilbo]

Who are the 8 first teamers

Lukaku
Young
Smalling
Sanchez
Darmian
Valencia
Rojo
Herrera

 

[red4ever 79]

Lukaku
Young
Smalling
Sanchez
Darmian
Valencia
Rojo
Herrera

Smalling, Sanchez and Rojo will all be back soon. Herrera and Lukaku havent been replaced. It's all very well getting rid of first team players without replacing them. In addition Herrera and Lukaku would walk into our first XI today

 

[Roboc7]

I have never said he hasn't been backed. I say that we have to buy more. And any manager that comes will have to buy. I don't get this sudden liking for Smalling. Don't people look at Roma games? He is still same old Smalling except that he plays in a league where it is easier to defend. I like his personality and he could have been here as backup but stating that Maguire is at best modest upgrade is for me wrong. Maguire is a leader. He don't shy away from duties and never hides. He has his negative sides but is lot better then Smalling.

Yes, I do point at patience. Because it is important. Any other manager that comes have to have time. If you put Guardiola in United he would need time. Whoever you put needs time. And time is not one year. I, for example, thought vanGaal needed more time and should have been given. Mourinho would have had more time if he didn't "sacked himself". Like every other project you need time. If you are a baby you need time to learn to walk. If you are buliding a house you need time to build. Now, there is other factors that make time more or less long. Like owners. Like managers. But however you turn it, you need time.

Style? Winning back ball early. Possesion (almost every game we have had more %) and trying fast fluid football when attacking. Not hard to see. Do we have players for that? Not really. And when injuries come we are struggling even more. But saying we don't have system? I don't want to go and make myself as some football guru but it is not that hard to see what Solskjaer is trying and what is lacking for his plan to work the best way.

Time and patience are irrelevant if you have picked the wrong manager and someone who isn’t competent enough to do the job.

 

[red4ever 79]

Time and patience are irrelevant if you have picked the wrong manager and someone who isn’t competent enough to do the job.

Time and patience with the wrong manager can also cause even more damage, that will take us longer to recover. I suspect Ole will leave at the end of the season. March in particular looks a tough month in terms of fixtures.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

You sure are. Let's also assume Herrera and Lukaku were deadwood even though neither were replaced and both would walk into our team today

Shhhhh, don't go speaking sense man. Herrera was our best midfielder to be honest, in terms of consistency, effort and talent combined - second best on paper after Pogba. Herrera is twice the player Scott and Fred are. Not replaced. Lukaku had flaws and needed to be sold, but was still our only true goal-scorer in the squad - not replaced. It's no surprise we are where we are.

 

[b82REZ]

Lukaku
Young
Smalling
Sanchez
Darmian
Valencia
Rojo
Herrera

At best 3 of those players were first teamers.

 

[langster]

I would just like to add that I accept everyone may have different opinions, that is expected and also welcomed. However, what is not is the tern 'Top Red'

I am a Manchester United supporter. I have been for over 40 years. I have seen success and failure in equal measure from the stands.

This term 'Top Red' is thrown around by idiots many of whom have never even been to OT.

I don't care what anyone says in pixels and lights on an internet forum. I care about the club 100%

If you don't like my opinion, that's fine. Disagree as much as you like,. Just stop with the Top Red shit. It's patheetic and uncalled for and just makes those who use it look like fecking idiots.

 

[svn]

At best 3 of those players were first teamers.

The first team is made up of more than 11 players.