It's a lost cause at this point. It's more about protecting Ole and their own pride than to prioritize the club itself for many of these people.
I swear if Ole wasn't a club legend as a player, the "keep the manager" votes would easily be below 10%.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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It's a lost cause at this point. It's more about protecting Ole and their own pride than to prioritize the club itself for many of these people.
I swear if Ole wasn't a club legend as a player, the "keep the manager" votes would easily be below 10%.
Nope, your original post was about how he threw away cup competitions to focus on the PL which is patently not true. Sevilla and Bristol City loss wasn't down to a weakened team, but rather poor and cowardly tactics. Same goes for FA Cup, he played pretty much a full-strength side prior to the SF consisting of 7-8 players who played regularly in PL.
There is no need to conjure up lies to justify why we finished 2nd that season, it was a mixture of lot of things, mainly we had a good squad, decent manager who was tactically competent and a peak in-form De Gea. It certainly wasn't due to some preference, Mourinho is known for picking up lot of domestic cup silverware because he takes it very seriously.
Most of the arguments in favor of keeping Ole always funnel down to this, A) He has played and learned from Fergie B) He understands the Utd way C) He's managed the squad well on recruitment side
The first two should count for diddly squat given that shouldn't be a requirement for anyone securing the top gig at a club like Utd. Also, jury is still out on the signings he has made. You're critical of Fred and Matic, when they have been two of the better midfielders for Ole this season. As for the playstyle, he is just as defensive if not more than van Gaal or Mourinho.
You want to back Ole? Fine, but don't pretend there are many tangible reasons for keeping him.
I don't understand the first part of this post. Care to elaborate? I don't know what you're trying to address really, who you are speaking for? Is it supposed to portray the perspective of a stereotypical United fan perhaps, or a certain type of fan you find yourself opposed to? I'm only guessing.
The last part I understand, we have been spoiled and naturally every fan has his or hers feelings about it, we wont replicate it but there is crisis then there is realism. Crisis isn't being able to not replicate what SAF did for us, most clubs don't, but crisis is losing our position that we have as a top club, permanently. We're still in a good position to compete and it is ok to be happy about that even if we aren't top top dog anymore. Because as much as it isn't realistic to expect us to dominate for years to come it isn't realistic that we'll lose our position. If that were to happen and we reached actual crisis it wouldn't be because of one bad manager, or even 3 or 4, it would be because of a board lacking to address systematic problems over a long time and as a results finally decides to not prioritise the club as a business.
I don't trust the owners and Ed but I do trust Ole, even if he isn't the perfect manager. Right now, that is important to me at least. We should have a plan in store for our next manager, like City did with Pep.. not just fire and hire randombly because the fans have no patience left and Ole have no big CV. That is why Poch is such a weird solution to me, yeah he hasn't got the best CV in terms of winning things, but that's no reason at the right club, he might. I certainly don't know but we should be open to that too. I'm sure he wont come in and make us look like worldbeaters overnight though just because 'he definitely is a top manager', that would be unrealistic. So as I said we should take our time to find the right man to take us a step forward, now that we have some sort of continuity and perhaps stability with Ole, if not genuin quality.
Good post and I respect your feelings.
But Ole looks out of his depth and that's the major issue. Signings are good, youth promotion good, but game management? It looks like he is learning on his job with other two inexperienced co-coaches. And if that is so then he will never get respect from players, that will split dressing room, players will not play for him (are they playing for him yet?).
I really don't mind results during building years if the manager is tactically the right one. I just don't see that in Ole yet.
I said at the start of the season that we shouldn't sack Ole just for the sake of it, but also that we should not let a misguided sense of loyalty get in our way if a clear better and more suited manager becomes available.
Pochettino is now available. For me that's the ball game.
Pochettino is now available. For me that's the ball game.
Who are you to tell us what kind of fans we are?
Re: the bold, I mean why not just get the entire class of 92 at the club. They all know what the club is about too. They all played under SAF.
This. I totally agree. I was actually going to write a comment when I read your first post which leads to your reply (this post) to others’ comments. You, sir, nailed it dead on!
It amazes me how so many ‘fans’ have so little patience.
Just to reiterate your point about Klopp’s Liverpool not winning for 2 years, it’s also notable that during his first year Liverpool finished 8th. Many people will argue that he didn’t get to coach or manage the team for the entire season during his first year but the point I’m trying to make is that the team barely played how Klopp wanted them to play and conceded way too many goals. In his defense, he didn’t have the right ‘personnel’ but when it comes to Ole, our fans easily look away saying his coaching methods are amateur. In all fairness, no matter how much he may coach them, some are just not mentally astute enough to grasp his ideas. It is not Ole’s fault that we didn’t buy him the players needed last summer and it was clear as day that a rocky road was coming up ahead. Nevertheless, he still got rid of players no matter how poor some of them were and put himself in a worse situation and that combined with the number of injuries we have had this season, it still amazes me that we are still only 6 points from Top 4.
Many fans think that Ole was given the job too early but what about Frank Lampard? He didn’t even have as much managerial experience as Ole did and still got the job. What about Zidane? He barely had any experience before he was given the Madrid job. The point is each one of the above is a legend at their club and having someone live and breathe the club is much safer in the long term than appointing Mourinho or Poch because they do not understand the club's history or the importance of the CORRECT way forward long term wise as a previous player would. These legends sure want results right away but they don't try to look for short term fixes who might sound fancy like some of our previous managers have done. Also important to note, that Zidane left the club and came back because his club realized his vision was a much safer one with a long term approach and needed time. Madrid has since gone on to become masters of acquiring the best young talent in Spain. They too have realized that the soccer world has changed and it is not so easy to go and buy galactico(S) every year and hence support Zidane's project of building a team for the future which includes many young players but players that a previous club Legend can identify as being future leaders of the club. Same way Ole could have acquired at least a couple more short term or cheaper players but he is taking a tougher road, albeit the right one.
To further back your comments, Ole's signings have been fairly good in my opinion. Very calculated in terms of United style and personality. Considering he only had a fixed budget last summer, a player like James, even though he might be a squad player at best in the future, was nevertheless still a great economical buy but who MATCHED the idea of a United player or at least the gist of it; hard-working, young and fast. Sure he isn’t that gifted technically yet but he is very young and if everyone was great and mature at a young age then there would be no shortage of Mbappe’s or Sancho’s. Some players need time.
Same with AWB. Defensively there’s no one better and many argue he’s weak offensively but considering our state in the past couple years (poor performances conceding wise) and add to that, inflation, I’m better off with the idea of a defensive-minded FB who needs improvement offensively rather then vice versa. We would have conceded way more goals by now. He’s young and will improve with time and with better players around him. If we had a world-class midfield or even Pogba available more often I’m sure we would have seen more successful end products as well as better service from our new signings who are being criticized for the lack of it at the moment.
Let’s say Poch had been signed last summer and with the same outgoings/incomings, I’m not so sure he would have done much better, to be honest.
During his time with Spurs, he also had a tough time making top 4.
So many of our fans are impatient and apparently 50% approximately want Ole sacked right now. Who's to say he won’t reach top 4 this season? There is still time and players returning from Injury along with Bruno should help in the run-in. Winning Europa is not easy but that’s another route still open!
I don’t question that Ole needs to improve but he has a very good system around him in the likes of Fergie’s previous assistant who is no rookie at his job and Fergie himself in Ole’s ears round the clock.
As for fans who think Ole’s coaching abilities need a lot of work are way off. He has come in during a time of transition and players will not adapt to his coaching overnight. But hints of his ideas have been seen in flashes more frequently than Klopp's Liverpool showed in the beginning. A manager needs time and of course money to shape his squad. We have only bought Ole 4 players and the last min signing in Oghalo who was probably not even his choice, to begin with. I may have argued that 4/5 players is sufficient to start seeing changes but considering the outgoings we have had and injuries, that is totally unfair as well. I’m sure we would have been better off in the league had we not lost our most important players to injury. Half these Ole out bandwagoner fans who only started supporting this club during its time of fame wouldn’t even exist if we were 4th place right now praising Ole instead. These are the same fans who have no patience. They say Poch has more pedigree and knowledge than Ole does. Well, what about Mourinho who is supposedly a Champion in his field and was given insane amounts of funds to build his squad. His 2nd place finish was 18 points off the top if I am not wrong and that is a horrible 2nd place. So was Mourinho a good signing for us?
I totally agree with you that Ole needs time and I actually believe that signing a manager like Poch as many are dying for, has grave risks as well. The direction we are headed in at the moment could be sacrificed by Poch if things start to go south ways at any point during his time here and he may end up making rushed decisions worried that he may get sacked if he doesn’t provide results. When we signed Jose, everyone said get him while he’s available! Now everyone is like get Poch while he’s available! My point is that clubs are not guaranteed to succeed based on a managers availability. A club needs to appoint the RIGHT manager. Sure Ole's CV does not prove so yet but he has created a good core and now just needs the missing pieces for his coaching to truly start being visible on a CONSTANT basis and not just in flashes. Was it Klopp's fault that they had a shambolic goalkeeper or horrible defenders that cost him titles? It was clear to see and hence the players were brought in. Klopp did not sacrifice his style or the Liverpool style just because he did not have the players for it. He went and got them in! Same way it is not Ole's fault that our midfield makes his coaching ideas look non-existent.
I would like to add one last point about Poch, during the last few months of his tenure, he created a toxic environment as well for example his feud with Alli who a manager like Mou was quickly able to revive again instantly! My point is that If Poch was that amazing than Spurs would have given him more time too! I wonder why they didn’t... Anyone who thinks we have a better chance of succeeding by sacking Ole and hiring someone else, regardless of it being Poch or whoever, wants instantaneous success and Manchester United has never been successful with short term plans. We appointed Ole knowing fine well his CV was not amazing in fact almost terrible but we understood that our project needs time and I hope Woody or anyone up there does not stray away from this plan and gives Ole time. At least another season after the upcoming summer window. Managers like Poch will always be available but we will only tarnish our legacy is we keep on the cycle of firing/hiring/firing constantly.
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Point 1
Okay so Ole did well the first six or serven games when he gone hired. Then what happened is he persisted with this 4-2-3-1 formation and used this same formation and also the same tactics basically every match. He insists on using this formation even though other teams have us found out. He is clueless tactics wise and you would think after dropping so may points against lower league teams he would have changing the system but he hasn't. Its actually embarrassing that a manager is this bad. We are no where near a well oiled machine like Liverpool are City
Point 2 (Right side).
He signs one of the worst attacking full backs in the league with AWB and spends 50 million on him. Do you think Klopp or Pep would have signing AWB? Not a chance. He then spends another 15 million on James who is bang average. Look at the state of the right side of our team all season. It has been absolutely horrendous and worst it has been in the last 20 years. We are still paying half of Alexis wages and could badly do him. He would be our best player on the right hand side of midfield.
Point 3(Striker)
They let Lukaku go instead of convincing him to stay or signing a replacement. Now we have to panic loan a guy from the Chinese league. Who did he think was going to bang in the goals? Martial? He is a better than average player at best with a terrible attitude and this is why is not in the French squad. He is lazy and arrogant.
Point 4(Currently eight in the table and 38 points behind Liverpool after 25 Games)
That says it all really. Not going to comment much more on this.
Point 5 (He spent 150 million and we have a worse team than last season)
I really think that Ole is the only manager that could have pulling this off. I don't think any manager after 150 million on a team could actually make them worse but of course Ole could.
To answer your questions.
1. He has got rid of nearly every single player that the fans were wanting out. He's reduced the wage bill dramatically by doing so and if the CAF had a list of players they wanted out, Ole would have ticked every box except Phil Jones.
Our best striker in Lukaku and our best midfielder in Herrera was let go.
You do know that Smalling, Rojo, Sanchez are on loan and not actually sold and still paying half of Sanchez's wages? Young was 34 and was time to go as could go on a rapid decline at any stage now. Darmian went basically for free.
We still have Jesse, Andreas, Matic, Mata along with others currently at the club.
2. He has bought young, exciting and fast players that all fit the United mold. He's also bought a centre back that the fans wanted and that could easily go on to be a legend. Ole went for the defence and instantly bought a strong man in Harry and an exciting RB.
AWB is exciting? Do you think Klopp or Pep would have signing him. He is a good defender and brutal at going forward. Our right side this season has been the worst right side in James and AWB that United have had in the last 20 years.
3. With the addition of James he's promoting counter attacking football with fast wingers and forwards and a firm defence. That is the United Way. He might not be getting it right but he's trying.
That is not the United way whatsoever. Manchester United always had attacking full backs that interlinked with wingers and created space. Promoting counter attacking football where you play the same tactics and formation every match does not work. James is not even an average player. Your talking nonsense here.
4. He's promoting youth. United are head and shoulders ahead in the youth players league. He's given time to so many youngsters from the academy and youth teams. He's played players fans were screaming at Mourinho to play such as Pereria.
Playing youth? Just because Ole calls Jesse, Andreas and James boys does not make them boys. Only real players are Greenwood and Williams.
5. His transfer targets have been spot on. There's a clear vision with his transfers. You can see what he's trying to do. There's no panic buys or luxuries like Fred and Matic. No wasted windows and money like Jose with His quest for an overpriced past it 30 year old winger in Perisic for £50+ million. He's also not playing FIFA and just going out and buying big names and reputations for big money hoping they will fit (LvG, Moyes, Jose)
AWB and James are not good signings. A title winning teams needs attacking full backs, James is not Man Utd quality.
Harry Maguire falls over when he comes across anyone quick.
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What is to ignore. Although Everton and Sheffield are smaller sides they are ”better” teams. More balanced. First and most they have better central midfield which is heart and soul of every good team while we have only 2 - 3 players that could play in the middle of the park until now we also got one more body that can do the job. But that is ONE thing of many why.
Why is Leicester infront of Tottenham? Chelsea? Why are Liverpool better then ManCity? It is not that Liverpool have better players? Should that mean that Guardiola need to be fired? Football is more than just what players and managers you currently have. There is so much that results depend on.
You all are ignoring the fact that we were free falling last season with Mourinho and that was because of no planing whatsoever what we would do after Fergie. Thinking that would change after a year is Football Manager thinking. Things take time.
I didn't say he threw away cup competitions, I said he was so focused on finishing 2nd he viewed them as an inconvenience, and if you listened to his pre/post match pressers(Bristol City/Sevilla)if you were in the wide-awake club you'd have picked up on that as well. It's not a slight on Mourinho because Managers have been doing similar since Adam was a lad.
Oh jeezus on a bike, for the love of god, please stop talking about the United Way/DNA and for fecks sake please stop comparing Ole to Fergie!
What do you mean by Ole signed players that fit the United mold? Care to elaborate what kind of mold is that? How many types of molds are they? If we signed players made for Chelsea molds or Arsenal molds, did we sign the wrong type of player? Is it ok to sign players in the Liverpool or Barcelona mold?? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Get off your high horse mate. If a player is good enough, he's good enough. I swear we have some of the most arrogant fans to have the audacity to think that we are some sort of special untouchable club with such a unique identity that only a small minority of people with "United DNA" are qualified.
And as if the Ole and Klopp comparisons are hilarious, now in comes the Fergie comparisons. Apparently, Ole is a good fit because he lives and breathes United. Did Fergie lived and breathed United before he accepted the job? Did Klopp have some sort of Liverpool DNA prior to the job? If a manager is good enough, he's good enough. Stop bringing up all these intangible rubbish if you want to big up Ole. Of course as fans we need patience, but patience is earned, not given. If Ole needs more time, he has to earn it via results and progress on the pitch. I can't believe of all managers post Fergie, Ole the most under-qualified, is the one who has been given a free pass for this season. If you're willing to write off an entire season for Ole, how many more seasons should we write off until you say enough is enough?
What do you mean by Ole signed players that fit the United mold? Care to elaborate what kind of mold is that? How many types of molds are they? If we signed players made for Chelsea molds or Arsenal molds, did we sign the wrong type of player? Is it ok to sign players in the Liverpool or Barcelona mold?? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Get off your high horse mate. If a player is good enough, he's good enough. I swear we have some of the most arrogant fans to have the audacity to think that we are some sort of special untouchable club with such a unique identity that only a small minority of people with "United DNA" are qualified.
And as if the Ole and Klopp comparisons are hilarious, now in comes the Fergie comparisons. Apparently, Ole is a good fit because he lives and breathes United. Did Fergie lived and breathed United before he accepted the job? Did Klopp have some sort of Liverpool DNA prior to the job? If a manager is good enough, he's good enough. Stop bringing up all these intangible rubbish if you want to big up Ole. Of course as fans we need patience, but patience is earned, not given. If Ole needs more time, he has to earn it via results and progress on the pitch. I can't believe of all managers post Fergie, Ole the most under-qualified, is the one who has been given a free pass for this season. If you're willing to write off an entire season for Ole, how many more seasons should we write off until you say enough is enough?
Might as well sell everyone and buy the whole everton / Sheffield lots. A Pogba and Lukaku combined would have bought the whole sheffield team. Go ahead, calculate how much Sheffield team cost.
More balanced?
Better central midfield?
We have spend 150m +50M and you're telling me ole the visionary can't even field a more balanced midfield than fecking sheffield Wednesday that just got promoted?
Why is Leicester infront of Tottenham? Because they have a manager that actually knows what he's doing, and that's also why Everton, and even Tottenham now leapfrogged us while we're sliding into relegation fight. Don't tell me ole needs 3 years, 4 more players, and another half a million for us to finally be able to say "we deserved to be ahead of Sheffield Wednesday
This thread is like watching (reading) the brexit debate.
At least one more full-season, possibly two.
Are you suggesting Mourinho and Pochettino before him doesn't/didn't know what they are/were doing?
And I think Sheffield United got promoted on a Thursday, not Wednesday
Never in my lifetime can I remember any big club managers given 2 free seasons to write off. I guess being a club legend earns you this leeway.
No way. He’s had enough time. If Mourinho and Van Gaal went so should he. No exceptions.
Poch, Sancho & Bruno would be statements of intent we’ve been waiting for and will galvanise the mood around our club. We can’t wait because we risk alienating a generation of younger fans with mediocre football.
They don’t understand 99’ like us who witnessed it so they rightly won’t have no real allegiance to Ole that the majority of the OT crowd does.
The magic is still alive for the older fans but the club needs to focus on younger generations now. Build on the good things he’s implemented and start fresh.
Is this season a write off?
Absolutely. Not coming back to this one any more.
We will get Pochettino and the good thing is that the rebuild hasn't gone far at all. Two of the players Ole has gotten - Bruno and AWB were wanted by Tottenham under Pochettino. James is a squad player and Maguire is our best CB so they are all going to be useful under Poch.
Ole has already shown he is not good enough by relegating Cardiff, coaching Molde for 8 years and giving us our lowest point tally in years. I don't need to see him with 200m worth of players or a fully fit squad to judge if he's good enough. We can look at his work at his previous clubs to do that not his future that is fiction. I mean do people really want to see Henderson AWB Maguire Koulibaly Williams Fred Pogba Sancho Bruno Rashford Jimenez or whatever your dream team is under Pochettino or under Ole?
Ole has already shown he is not good enough by relegating Cardiff, coaching Molde for 8 years and giving us our lowest point tally in years. I don't need to see him with 200m worth of players or a fully fit squad to judge if he's good enough. We can look at his work at his previous clubs to do that not his future that is fiction. I mean do people really want to see Henderson AWB Maguire Koulibaly Williams Fred Pogba Sancho Bruno Rashford Jimenez or whatever your dream team is under Pochettino or under Ole?
He's not even had one full-season, so not even close to being enough time, and van Gaal shouldn't have gone. Everything was in place for him to kick-on.
In an ideal world Mourinho would have gone before he came!
And if we lose a generation of fans it's their loss, they'll soon come running back when we're successful again.
He’s been here a full year and two transfer windows. He’s done and the club knows he’s done too.
We are a business and losing a generation of fans when we have the capital to invest is the worst thing we can ever do as a club. Young fans are the most important thing for long-term financial stability of any club.
He's had less than a year as permanent Manager, and he's had one window that you can judge him on, not two.
If he's done why would the club okay the Bruno Fernandes signing? We know he's a replacement for Pogba(hurrah), but Allegri or Southgate might not want him.
He has? Ok, i never knew he was diagnosed with symptoms of stress fracture before. But I read that piece on it from that doctor (can’t remember his name..) And from what I knew, Rashford has done just that, playing through some pain - and that is normal. If it is like you say, he has done it for years, I really don’t understand why Ole’s alarm bells should have gone off. Surely all those years is on the medical staff, and I really can’t take it serious that Ole is not listening to his medical staff. No manager work like that anymore. I see some goal posts are moving towards speculative points, like Ole overruled the medical staff etc. But the point I was arguing is that Ronaldo has more minutes (even at the point of Rashford’s injurie)
I really can’t see that Ole is rushing any players back either. We can use Pogba as example. He has two medical teams checking up on him. The club and his own. Surely Ole didn’t ignore them both and rush him. That I would call fantasyland. I’m sure he wouldn’t even be able to.
Another one I’ve read is overplay Maguire. Again, medical teams look at his hip and saying he is fit to play. And Harry has always played a lot of games. Always.
If a lot of players where picking up injuries from fatigue and muscle injuries etc. I would support your theory. But that isn’t the case. Some of the players have what you say, a history of injuries. Others have had knocks etc.
To be blunt, the only thing you can blame Ole for is having the team running 20% more and upping the intensity in training. I don’t see that as a bad thing. And since it is popular to compare Klopp, the exact same happened to Liverpool changing intensity. You seem like an intelligent guy, but I think you are clutching at straws here.
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Genuinely curious mate, and I mean this in the least aggressive way possible, just want to get a feel for your thoughts. Why do you say United is a special club? What’s different between us and Liverpool or Barcelona or Madrid or Munich?
That’s quite the pedestal you’ve put yourself on there to assume that your viewpoint has some kind of inherent superiority over other fans ones.
Equating fans who don’t think Ole is the right manager for the club with the criminals who vandalised Woodward’s house is..... Well it’s basically just silly and offensive and probably best ignored, like an unfortunately timed gaseous bowel emission.
It’s great that you have a lot of passion for the club and its history and traditions, they are important things for sure.
But I still don’t understand how those factors mean that Ole is the right choice for the club. As someone else pointed out SAF was not an ex Utd player and is now one of the first names or entities that anyone would associate with Man Utd. He defined a large chunk of Utd history. The other difference was he was hired outright based on European success with Aberdeen. Not a caretaker manager with a very patchy record in British football, after a short lived new manager bounce.
The points on either side of the debate would probably fit on one page of this thread. In my opinion the view that Ole should be replaced is by far the more logical and coherent one.
Your argument seems to rely on a lot of emotion, ‘badge kissing’, a sense of being inherently superior as a fan and possibly even as a person and general mud flinging at anyone who dares disagree with you. These criteria make your position weak as you’re not really relying on any substance, but more in the hope that you can bulldoze your way through the well constructed and logically sound counter arguments with a kind of vapid bluster, ironically a term that could well be used to describe our attack - particularly down the right side - this season.
If you want counter arguments to the points you have raised, look further back in the thread as they’re all addressed, numerous times, in detail.
This is a polite response to your post, which to be fair I’m not sure warrants a polite response. Time is limited though, so please don’t be too offended if I respond to similar future posts with just a laughing emoji.
I really don't think any of this matters at this stage anyway. It seems blatantly obvious he's gone at the end of the season once we can get Poch, thank feck.
Yep. It really does seem like a done deal to me, so this is all largely irrelevant.
What's interesting to me though is I've seen a number of Ole in backers downplaying Poch's achievements, or his credentials as a manager which I do find odd. I guess we've all got biases, we're not robots. Poster earlier said we were all 'screaming for Jose', but that's not true I never wanted Mourinho at the helm, although I would never call him a bad manager. I find it curious that anyone can look at what Poch did at Spurs and Southampton though and consider him an average manager. But is probably best placed in another thread, just pointing out the fact that people are downplaying Poch - while backing Ole - only makes their argument even weaker.
Awful post and, unlike other “Ole in” posters, I get the impression you are serious rather than trolling. The fundamental problem is that you are unable to distinguish between Alex Ferguson and Manchester United, while seeming to remember very little about the real Fergie rather than some cliched “United Way” version. A few pointers:
- he was an outstanding manager before he arrived at United. Ole’s track record is outstandingly mediocre.
- he had no previous connection with the club as a player (like Busby, Shankly, Clough, Klopp etc etc etc) - suggesting being an ex-player makes no difference to performance as manager
- talented and ferociously ambitious as he was, he made mistakes in his early years (it was not axiomatic that we had to be crap for 3-4 years in order to improve)
- in actions, not words, he did not make a fetish of playing young players - his first great side was almost entirely bought from outside with only a once in a generation talent like Giggs from the youth team
- he was a pragmatist who varied his style of play - the 2009 team for example had very little in common with 94 or 99 sides
- Finally, and most importantly, he was the greatest manager British football has ever produced and therefore completely inappropriate as a point of comparison for nearly all other managers, particularly a journeyman from the Norwegian league
Excellent post. ''it was not axiomatic that we had to be crap for 3-4 years in order to improve'. This is so neatly put, should be stickied on the first page of the thread.
Its not that much different to the deluded, mentally ill etc names that are thrown at Ole supporters on a regular basis. This whole thing has just gotten really stupid now.
In fact I just realised that the mentally ill comment came from you, so you know, its slightly hypocritical of you to take offence to the point you responded to.
Actually, it's different because I said 'the most fervent Ole ins' and I said 'genuine mental stability issues' which i do actually believe to be true about some posters. It is a loose and inappropriate definition though, I was trying to categorise broadly the general mud flinging, ranting type. By no means did I mean all 'Ole in' posters. There are a few, like yourself, who've always remained polite and reasoned with your arguments and I have a lot of respect for.
Nevertheless, it has got silly now.
This thread has got a bit nuts. People can barely be civil. There are certain posters on both sides who do genuinely seem to just rant and rave. If someone has the temerity to have a differing viewpoint, people come in and seem genuinely angry and affonted. Heck, I've probably been guilty of it myself, this thread seems to bring the worst out in people.
I'm quite on the fence regarding Ole. I'd absolutely love to see him succeed, I love the guy. Seems such a genuine chap, and I remember his contributions to the team as a player so fondly.
I see some positives in what he's done, I see plenty of negatives. I'll list some that I can think of - I'm sure people will disagree, think I omitted some on both sides, but I should really be doing some actual work!
Positives:
I'm quite on the fence regarding Ole. I'd absolutely love to see him succeed, I love the guy. Seems such a genuine chap, and I remember his contributions to the team as a player so fondly.
I see some positives in what he's done, I see plenty of negatives. I'll list some that I can think of - I'm sure people will disagree, think I omitted some on both sides, but I should really be doing some actual work!
Positives:
- He has improved certain players
- He's cleared plenty of deadwood
- He's played youth (5 of lowest 10 average age sides this season have been ours)He's got a great record against top 6 sides - I think we're 2nd in that "table" of results? Might be wrong since game against Liverpool
- I've seen him change the tactics around against the top 6 sides, it's not all been pure counter attacking as some will state, which leads me to hope he has some tactical nous.
- His signings have been good. People will claim AWB is a liability going forward, I disagree. Have seen flashes from him, he's put in a few great crosses at times. Maguire hasn't been as great as I'd hoped, but being stuck beside Lindelof doesn't help. James has had flashes, but will be an OK squad player going forward I think.
- For all that I'm seeing good tactics against big sides, he's really not getting a handle on how to beat the lower teams. Being without Pogba hasn't helped him, but you need to figure that out! Hopefully Bruno will improve things there.
- Thinning out the squad too much - yes, he cleared deadwood. But letting Lukaku go, without a replacement was clearly a mistake. His fault? Or did he expect someone brought in by Woodward? I dunno. I definitely have seen enough to know that Woodward was somehow at fault, but Ole should have demanded Lukaku not be sold until a replacement was in the bag.
- Results simply haven't been good enough. That has to change, and soon. That's the bottom line, ultimately.
- In-game changes are far too late, and often there simply aren't enough of them when it's blatantly clear that things aren't happening.
Well I did get told off for calling someone a moron - so not always polite and reasoned
I think this forum would become a lot healthier if people just accepted that some people still want Ole to be given more time to add to the squad, and those of us that do should recognise that people don't rate the guy and probably never will. We all know by now that no arguments however well written are going to change anyone's minds on this.
Well I did get told off for calling someone a moron - so not always polite and reasoned
I think this forum would become a lot healthier if people just accepted that some people still want Ole to be given more time to add to the squad, and those of us that do should recognise that people don't rate the guy and probably never will. We all know by now that no arguments however well written are going to change anyone's minds on this.
I don't think many have issues with people having opposing views. It's natural and this place would be boring if we all agreed. Only speaking for myself, but I'm sure others will agree, the issue I see is that many supporters of the manager seem to be based in pure emotion and nostalgia and they often take the top red approach when they are drawn into a debate. Langster's posts typifies this.
Most arguments for Out are based on objective facts. @Regulus Arcturus Black regularly makes balanced detailed posts outlining shortcomings but are often ignored and then the same 3/4 posters appear with the same tired lines about patience and the United Way. In the months of back and forth in the thread I can't think of a single post supporting the manager that uses tangible facts in his defence. We often see goal posts shifted and history rewritten to try and excuse Ole's shortcomings.
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Are you seriously suggesting that the club takes the risk of standing and thereby falling behind just to see whether a manager that got relegated with Cardiff is good enough? This is cutthroat professional football where hundreds of millions are at stake and you want the club to waste time and resources backing a manager who has taken it to 8th and could possibly have us out of the top ten in March? Are you insane?
Think that's a fair assessment. People who claim everything hes done is horrible are as silly as the people who see now fault in him.
Those bolded part is what confuses me about his tenure here. Why in the flying feck can we manage to beat Chelsea and City x2, beat Spurs and Leicester and be the only team to manage to take points of Liverpool, yet handing Burnley, Soton, Bournemouth and Palace is just too much to ask?
And its not as simple as "our tactics suit those opponents". If the key to beating those teams were just "counterattack lol" then they would have dropped a lot more points and would not be where they are in the table. And in those games we drop points, its not like we are bombarding them with chances and pin them back. They match us pretty much on the entire pitch and we have been dogshit in so, so many of those games, barely registering a single shot on target
Two years ago maybe. Lately most of his posts consists of laughing hysterically, then screaming something in bold while tagging someone. That's probably why it gets ignored. There are the occasional long detailed posts with stats, but those are very few and far in between, and usually followed by more manic laughing.
Do you feel the same when other mid table teams get a win against a top 4 team? It happens all the time and the general consensus is that said team raised their game and played above their level as it "their cup final". Is it not beyond the realms of possibility that that's what we are seeing at United. Players and coaches motivating themselves and playing above their level for a few games a season while they don't have that same hunger or desire in the other fixtures.
To me that's what it seems to be and that further compounds my worries that Solksjaer, in spite of his positive spin simply has the mindset and ability of a mid table manager and the club and squad is settling at that level.
No mate i've never been to Paris
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