Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Rhyme Animal]

I understand that local fans may have a different viewpoint, but as a foreign fan, I don't think it's wise to spend 80m just to make a statement to local talents. In fact, we have tried too hard in the past few years to prove ourselves as a big club which led to many failed signings, such as the likes of Schweinsteiger, Falcao, etc. There are plenty of talents around the world and the best way to attract them (local or not) is to improve the team and get better results.

I've heard enough about "ball playing defenders" and honestly I'm not a fan of it. You can refer to #11417 and #11426 for more details but in short, I could say we barely benefit from it. How often do Maguire and Lindelof successfully play a direct ball through the lines and create a chance? More often than not, we give the ball away unnecessarily in dangerous positions leading to opposition's counter attack. The idea of playing out from the back is to keep the ball and bring the ball forward safely, but with the lack of quality and creativity in midfield (you said it yourself), we usually swing the ball forward eventually, making the whole philosophy meaningless. The goal against Wolves came from a hopeful long ball from Maguire, just like Smalling always did. Last season we had Fred and McTominay ahead of Smalling and things went just fine.

Your last paragraph pinpointed a very thought-provoking question: why did Ole want Longstaff or Rice so bad? Why on earth we were linked to so many English players last summer? Why did we become Brexit FC all of a sudden? There were plenty of useful midfield options by that time, including Ndombele, Gueye, etc., but we were so affixed to English players.

Promote this poster ASAP.

Absolute mountain of common sense in this post.

 

[Will Singh]

Jose was sacked for losing to Liverpool at Anfield, with more points than we have now. How is he still here?

Because Jose wasn’t a yes man it’s as simple as that!

 

[hmchan]

Good post.

Regarding the first bold part: You may not agree with Maguire's price, i may not agree with it either but the truth is that Solskjaer's whole plan revolves around getting the "right" players in. Meaning that academy graduates and players who understand the culture of both the club and the country will be a priority for us. I believe that's the main reason why Maguire was rejected when Mourinho was in charge but he was given the green light when Solskjaer explained that a different approach was needed. Generally speaking, we lack experience and proper guidance on the pitch and most of the good teams both in England and in Europe are usually built around a core of local players who "get" the club and are willing to stay for a long period of time at it. But, as with many things that have to do with Solskjaer, while the initial ideas are good, the materialization of said ideas suffers from several faults. It's the story of his tenure thus far.

As i mentioned earlier, the build-up becomes problematic because of what happens in front of the back-four. First of all, we were not doing fine last season. In fact, we were flattering to deceive, even during Solskajer's magical start as the caretaker manager. Secondly, it's his team-building. If the goal, in the end, is to create a side able to press and maintain a high line, the defenders have to be adequate on the ball because they will often find themselves on the ball above the halfway line and they'll have to pass the ball forward or pick the right pass that will allow us to keep the momentum of our moves alive. Just remember how much LvG's gameplan suffered from having the "usual" suspects" playing sideways and backwards passes all the time.

We both agree that our main issues stem from what going on in the centre of the park. The midfield can't instil any sense of control because most of them are ball-winning midfielders who can cover much ground but with very poor positioning, poor close control and not much calmness under pressure. Which, of course, doesn't bode well with the notion that we want to win games by dominating them. Now, someone may argue that we miss Pogba. The counter-argument is that Pogba was supposed to be our #10 and he was pushed to a deeper position after it became clear that Longstaff/Rice wasn't coming. Furthermore, Pogba is a brilliant player but also a player of great moments. He's not the one who will help you dominate games through intricate short-passing. I believe Solskjaer is caught between two minds: Go for a high-pressing midfield or a more controlling one? Which will be route A? He ended up with neither and that's one of the main reasons why we look so disjointed on the pitch.

As for his transfer targets, i believe he's very idealistic to the point where he limits his choices. It's not solely a Brexit fc thing (we want a spine of British/Irish players but we will buy others too) but a case of "i want him". Look at the names we're linked with: Bruno, Rice, Longstaff, Can (even Mandjukic until recently), most of the rumours are persistent. It's an indication that Solskjaer has given Woodward a very short list to work with (which may explain Ed's admitted difficulty to get deals over the line).

Well, I doubt whether a team has to be built around a local player. Besides Kane at Tottenham, I don't see the other big 4 do the same. Reason is simple, the amount of quality English players is limited. When your team is getting good results, your players will be willing to stay for a long period of time, as simple as that.

If the goal is to maintain a high line, the introduction of Maguire would be absolutely contradictory. He is so slow and not athletic enough to get back. Just look at how he was got passed at the halfway line and unable to recover yesterday. In fact, whenever Maguire and Lindelof find themselves high up the pitch, they are just playing sideways eventually, I don't see much difference compared to van Gaal's era.

For the midfield, I'm inclined to believe Ole prefers to play quick, direct football. This fits with his choice of players as well (Lingard ahead of Mata). However, when we play against weaker sides, we have no choice but to dominate possession as the opposition parks the bus, and as we all know we struggle to play against a well-organized defensive side.

 

[RedDevilUnited369]

Because Jose wasn’t a yes man it’s as simple as that!

This is funny cause what is Jose now at Spurs following his rebrand?

 

[Zlaatan]

Jose had thrown the whole team under the bus over the last year. Nobody was good enough, smart enough, quick enough, and so on. The only players Jose still wanted in his team was DDG nad Lukaku. And perhaps Matic.
And the game we lost against Liverpool under Mourinho, we weren't even close. That game Liverpool had the ball like 70 % of the time. They had over 30 shots on us, with more than 10 shots hitting the target. And Moutinho pretty much had a fully fit squad, he just chose to start with Lingard, Young, Darmian and Matic.

This time it was 1-0, and until they had a counter-attack on us in the 93rd minute, we were closer on 1-1, then they were on 2-0.

That's just not true. They did make it 2-0, twice, but the goals were disallowed because the margins were on our side. Then De Gea made a brilliant save on Mane's 1v1, Henderson hit the post and Salah messed up the best chance in the game when he somehow hit his own leg with only De Gea to beat from 6m.

Meanwhile we had two good chances to score all game and one of those ended up with not even a shot towards goal.

We could have gotten a draw with lady luck on our side, but if we take off the rose tinted glasses then it's fair to say that the game was much closer to ending 4-0 than 1-1.

 

[devilish]

I don’t get your point pal regarding the EPL.

You don’t think the full back can make improvement in his going forward? It’s not impossible.
List me those “Wc” CB, will you?

Maddison already in England squad, so what are you on about? While Grealish is not because there are Maddison and Mount as option. Are you telling me that’s a fair comparison to Smalling who can’t even make the CB option over the likes of Lewis Dunk, Keane, Stones, and Ming? Never mind Maguire, he can’t even get into the squad over those names.

According to the FA website Maddison has yet to make his debut with England. He was on the substitute's bench for the Kosovo and the Montenegro game as Southgate preferred the likes of Winks and Mount to him and he wasn't called for the Bulgaria game were Barkley featured. Smalling on the other hand has been a beast in the Serie A, he has 31 caps with England and he also won the EPL league twice. Dunk, Keane and Stones might not be WC but same can be said about the likes of Barkley and Mount.

http://www.thefa.com/england/mens-seniors/squad/james-maddison

Regarding your first comment, usually its viceversa. A fullback might slightly improve his defensive abilities rather then viceversa (Evra, Carlos etc). AWB was initially a RW and yet he never learnt how to move forward with the ball. Maguire was supposed to be a rock at Leicester but they are doing better without him. Are these two really worth 130m?

 

[GBBQ]

This result really shouldn't change anything. Should have been sacked ages ago.

I'd argue that it does change something. Ole's selling point was that he was getting wins against the big teams. The fact that Arsenal, City and now Liverpool have outclassed us in the last three big encounters proves he doesn't even have that going for him anymore. His tactics were one dimensional, reliant on catching our opponents on an off day, heavily reliant on Rashford doing the business and easy to counter. He's run out of ideas.

 

[RedDevilUnited369]

I'd argue that it does change something. Ole's selling point was that he was getting wins against the big teams. The fact that Arsenal, City and now Liverpool have outclassed us in the last three big encounters proves he doesn't even have that going for him anymore. His tactics were one dimensional, reliant on catching our opponents on an off day, heavily reliant on Rashford doing the business and easy to counter. He's run out of ideas.

Seems like a lazy assessment. How can he run out of ideas when he run out of fit players to implement ideas?

Has Pep ran out of ideas too or is he suffering from a loss of a CB that stops them leaking the goals they have been?

We’re 5th in the league even though we have the youngest squad in the league and never had a fully fit team all season.

 

[GBBQ]

Seems like a lazy assessment. How can he run out of ideas when he run out of fit players to implement ideas?

Has Pep ran out of ideas too or is he suffering from a loss of a CB that stops them leaking the goals they have been?

We’re 5th in the league even though we have the youngest squad in the league and never had a fully fit team all season.

Plenty of teams have injury crises, he chose to sanction the sales/loans of Sanchez and Lukaku without getting adequate back up so its on Ole too.

5th in the league means nothing, we're 30 points off Liverpool who have a game in hand. The reason we're in touch of the top 4 is because Spurs and Arsenal are also in turmoil (and both have changed their managers accordingly).

Also, his running out of ideas doesn't just extend to the big teams, throw in losses to West ham, Watford, Bournemouth, Newcastle & Crystal palace where we were unable to break down the dregs of the Premier League. This isn't progress, this is a man way out of his depth.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

We’re 5th in the league even though we have the youngest squad in the league and never had a fully fit team all season.

Can people please stop with this "we're 5th" excuse. We've picked up 34 points from 23 games, the same as Wolves and 1 point more than Premier League newcomers Sheffield United.

 

[RedDevilUnited369]

Can people please stop with this "we're 5th" excuse. We've picked up 34 points from 23 games, the same as Wolves and 1 point more than Premier League newcomers Sheffield United.

And where are Spurs and Arsenal? Chelsea only 5 points ahead of us.

If we have no clue nor do half the “OG” top 6.

Which leads me to believe we’re not as bad as we could be in a rebuild season where we’re suffering with major injuries.

Arsenal have no major injuries. Spurs only just lost Kane. Chelsea lost Kante for a month at the beginning of the season. No major injuries at Liverpool or Leicester and City season has been affected by injuries.

Why we trying to dismiss the fact we have suffered more injuries and are still battling in 5th with an inexperienced side?

 

[mancan92]

His handling of injuries should be enough for the sack to be honest

 

[e.cantona]

His handling of injuries should be enough for the sack to be honest

Why, what'd he do?

 

[Bilbo]

Can people please stop with this "we're 5th" excuse. We've picked up 34 points from 23 games, the same as Wolves and 1 point more than Premier League newcomers Sheffield United.

Its a tough league to get consistent results in. Everybody is struggling with that apart from one team. You know this as well as anyone else does.

 

[Bilbo]

Why, what'd he do?

Players got injured. Fire the manager. That what big clubs do or something

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Can people please stop with this "we're 5th" excuse. We've picked up 34 points from 23 games, the same as Wolves and 1 point more than Premier League newcomers Sheffield United.

Yep, our points return so far has been absolutely shocking. I can see a torrid few weeks coming up,here - we'll be close to 10th by March.

 

[Enigma_87]

Players got injured. Fire the manager. That what big clubs do or something

The player in question has been ran into the ground lately. A home FA cup tie and by all accounts he was carrying a knock with also big game on Sunday coming up. You bring him on, he gets another knock and you STILL keep him on the pitch to aggravate the injury.

Brilliant management.

 

[b82REZ]

Players got injured. Fire the manager. That what big clubs do or something

You know full well what the implication was so stop with the woe is me everyone is picking on Solksjaer. By Ole's own admission he knew Rashford was carrying a knock and still put him on against Wolves, similarly to how he played Pogba too early. The manager can claim the lads wanted to play but it's his job to, you know, manage these lads and tell them no, due to concerns over fitness.

Surely even Solksjaer's staunchest defenders have to accept his complete mismanagement of the squad and the lack of rotation because of it

 

[e.cantona]

You know full well what the implication was so stop with the woe is me everyone is picking on Solksjaer. By Ole's own admission he knew Rashford was carrying a knock and still put him on against Wolves, similarly to how he played Pogba too early. The manager can claim the lads wanted to play but it's his job to, you know, manage these lads and tell them no, due to concerns over fitness.

Surely even Solksjaer's staunchest defenders have to accept his complete mismanagement of the squad and the lack of rotation because of it

I assume Ole got someone advising him on medical issues conserning the players. Do we know for sure this or these experts didn't say no problem, play him. Why would Ole go against the opposite advise?

 

[fergiesarmy1]

The player in question has been ran into the ground lately. A home FA cup tie and by all accounts he was carrying a knock with also big game on Sunday coming up. You bring him on, he gets another knock and you STILL keep him on the pitch to aggravate the injury.

Brilliant management.

Yet quite a few fans moaned when he took him off after he scored 2 against Norwich.

 

[b82REZ]

I assume Ole got someone advising him on medical issues conserning the players. Do we know for sure this or these experts didn't say no problem, play him. Why would Ole go against the opposite advise?

We don't know anything for sure except that over the past 10 years our injuries are getting worse, which would suggest a poor medical department. Secondly we can only have what the manager says, and when he comes out with lines like "he wanted to play" it starts to sound a little like the lunatics running the asylum.

Both aforementioned players really had no reason to be involved in the matches that lead to their eventual injury and that comes down to management.

 

[JG3001]

Being in charge of a Cardiff side which were looking at back to back relegations should be more than enough justification.

He isn’t the main problem, but he’s far from the solution.

 

[Enigma_87]

I assume Ole got someone advising him on medical issues conserning the players. Do we know for sure this or these experts didn't say no problem, play him. Why would Ole go against the opposite advise?

Because when you are facing the sack you tend to do selfish things?

Yet quite a few fans moaned when he took him off after he scored 2 against Norwich.

How is that relevant that an average Joe on the internet complained about something ?

 

[e.cantona]

We don't know anything for sure except that over the past 10 years our injuries are getting worse, which would suggest a poor medical department. Secondly we can only have what the manager says, and when he comes out with lines like "he wanted to play" it starts to sound a little like the lunatics running the asylum.

Both aforementioned players really had no reason to be involved in the matches that lead to their eventual injury and that comes down to management.

But we don't know, right? Why conclude either way. Maybe doctor say no problem, player say no problem, Ole say we need to manage squad and rest players before important games.

 

[e.cantona]

Because when you are facing the sack you tend to do selfish things?

He's facing the sack? If he is, do we know for sure he did the selfish thing and played Rashford to avoid sacking?

 

[Enigma_87]

He's facing the sack? If he is, do we know for sure he did the selfish thing and played Rashford to avoid sacking?

Well he's second favorite in the sack race currently.

Solskjaer on Rashford: "I didn't want to play him. He got a knock to his knee and his back. He has been struggling for a little while. That's why we kept him away. But we needed the win. It backfired. We will do anything we can to get him fit for Sunday."

I'm saying he could do many things to save his job, playing his best player recently despite knowing full well he's carrying an injury is one of them.

 

[SteveW]

You know full well what the implication was so stop with the woe is me everyone is picking on Solksjaer. By Ole's own admission he knew Rashford was carrying a knock and still put him on against Wolves, similarly to how he played Pogba too early. The manager can claim the lads wanted to play but it's his job to, you know, manage these lads and tell them no, due to concerns over fitness.

Surely even Solksjaer's staunchest defenders have to accept his complete mismanagement of the squad and the lack of rotation because of it

This is stupid. The medical staff deemed him fit enough to play. He'd been playing with the injury. If he wasn't fit enough to play he wouldn't have been in the squad. It's down to the medical staff to make those calls.

We were playing Wolves 4 days before playing a rested Liverpool at Anfield. If the game had gone to extra time and we played 120 minutes 4 days before Liverpool with Rashford sat on the bench the caf would have gone into a fecking meltdown. Unfortunately he took a heavy blow and got a worse injury. It happens.

 

[e.cantona]

Well he's second favorite in the sack race currently.



I'm saying he could do many things to save his job, playing his best player recently despite knowing full well he's carrying an injury is one of them.

I don't know how that would affect his decisions. You're speculating. Again, maybe doctor say ok, player say ok, Ole say...

 

[Enigma_87]

This is stupid. The medical staff deemed him fit enough to play. He'd been playing with the injury. If he wasn't fit enough to play he wouldn't have been in the squad. It's down to the medical staff to make those calls.

We were playing Wolves 4 days before playing a rested Liverpool at Anfield. If the game had gone to extra time and we played 120 minutes 4 days before Liverpool with Rashford sat on the bench the caf would have gone into a fecking meltdown. Unfortunately he took a heavy blow and got a worse injury. It happens.

He was fit to play for about 5 mins.

You will go to whatever length to defend Ole, and seems like many on this board are more his fan rather than United fan.

What's the excuse of not taking him off straight away since he knew he was carrying a knock?

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't know how that would affect his decisions. You're speculating. Again, maybe doctor say ok, player say ok, Ole say...

It's not an isolated case. He rushed Pogba, Lingard(by his own admission), McTom and overplayed Rashford and again subbed him on, whilst knowing full well he was carrying a knock.

There is a clear pattern of mismanagement of all those players and if the pressure is not affecting his decision then why he is rushing players into games?

 

[e.cantona]

It's not an isolated case. He rushed Pogba, Lingard(by his own admission), McTom and overplayed Rashford and again subbed him on, whilst knowing full well he was carrying a knock.

There is a clear pattern of mismanagement of all those players and if the pressure is not affecting his decision then why he is rushing players into games?

I can't say if Ole's at fault, or not, in any of the cases where a player gets injuried. I assume he has medical expertice in his team. What's the Lingard story?

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Because when you are facing the sack you tend to do selfish things?



How is that relevant that an average Joe on the internet complained about something ?

He’s damned if he does or damned if he doesn’t with some.

 

[Enigma_87]

He’s damned if he does or damned if he doesn’t with some.

Considering the free ride he's on in terms of results since March, he has one of the easiest jobs in the world right now.

 

[b82REZ]

This is stupid. The medical staff deemed him fit enough to play. He'd been playing with the injury. If he wasn't fit enough to play he wouldn't have been in the squad. It's down to the medical staff to make those calls.

We were playing Wolves 4 days before playing a rested Liverpool at Anfield. If the game had gone to extra time and we played 120 minutes 4 days before Liverpool with Rashford sat on the bench the caf would have gone into a fecking meltdown. Unfortunately he took a heavy blow and got a worse injury. It happens.

The medical staff cant have cleared him as he started on the bench and Ole admitted himself it was a risk that backfired as Rashford had been carrying a knock. Or are we just ignoring this as it highlights the managers fault?

You love a strawman argument. No one expressed dissaffication with Rashford not starting against Wolves and the consensus was it was an excellent time to rest him, so no the Caf would not have gone made if we'd been knocked out.

The lengths at which you go to absolve blame on Solksjaer would make a make a contortionist look stiff.

 

[Enigma_87]

I can't say if Ole's at fault, or not, in any of the cases where a player gets injuried. I assume he has medical expertice in his team. What's the Lingard story?

So why should we always shift the blame outside Ole, when he's the one deciding who gets in the team and also is fully aware of players carrying knocks? Or the medical guy tells him play player A tomorrow?

As for Lingard - same - he said in an interview that he rushed him after an injury.

 

[SteveW]

The medical staff cant have cleared him as he started on the bench and Ole admitted himself it was a risk that backfired as Rashford had been carrying a knock. Or are we just ignoring this as it highlights the managers fault?

You love a strawman argument. No one expressed dissaffication with Rashford not starting against Wolves and the consensus was it was an excellent time to rest him, so no the Caf would not have gone made if we'd been knocked out.

The lengths at which you go to absolve blame on Solksjaer would make a make a contortionist look stiff.

Try reading my post again. The caf would have gone mad if we played 120 minutes against Wolves 4 days before Liverpool without at least trying to bring on an attacker to win the game. The last thing anyone wanted was extra time. So we brought on the one striker we had on the bench to try and win it. As I said if he was declared fit to be on the bench that meant he was considered fit enough to play some part.

It just didn't work out. He took a challenge and got hurt. If it didn't happen against wolves it would have likely happened in one of the next few games.

 

[sunama]

I've read many excuses for Ole failing and this is the latest one.

And where are Spurs and Arsenal? Chelsea only 5 points ahead of us.

If we have no clue nor do half the “OG” top 6.

Which leads me to believe we’re not as bad as we could be in a rebuild season where we’re suffering with major injuries.

By your reasoning, if CFC and AFC go mid table, while we fall into the relegation zone, we should accept this, because our old rivals are also not doing so well.
On a related note, we just lost to LFC btw (2-0) and many fans in that thread are quite accepting of this. We apparently did well in that match.

It baffles me how fans are accepting such low standards. 2 years ago we finished 2nd and now 5th place is acceptable? Wolves and Sheff Utd are within 1 point of us.
I get that Woodward and Ole want to lower our standards. Woodward wants to spend less money and make us a 4th place team (which I think we are, bar the Jose season), while Ole wants to save his job and make it "ok" to finish 5th-8th.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Considering the free ride he's on in terms of results since March, he has one of the easiest jobs in the world right now.

He’s made some tough choices with squad, mostly correct even though there was a good chance it would bite him in the arse which it obviously has.

 

[sunama]

Considering the free ride he's on in terms of results since March, he has one of the easiest jobs in the world right now.

Indeed.
This is season is our worst start to an EPL season, ever! It's a negative record that is continuing and nobody is calling Ole out on it.
Even during interviews, nobody is asking how he validates the worst run of results MUFC have ever had in a EPL season. And this includes the ill-fated Moyes season.

 

[Enigma_87]

He’s made some tough choices with squad, mostly correct even though there was a good chance it would bite him in the arse which it obviously has.

those two don't go along together. If there was a good chance that would bite him in the arse and it did then obviously they weren't the correct choices.

Indeed.
This is season is our worst start to an EPL season, ever! It's a negative record that is continuing and nobody is calling Ole out on it.
Even during interviews, nobody is asking how he validates the worst run of results MUFC have ever had in a EPL season. And this includes the ill-fated Moyes season.

Having a free ride from half of the fanbase too. His job is easier than Woodwards, which says it all. Absolutely no pressure to use United as his training ground.