So none then. If you're going to make such claims, at least back it up.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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So none then. If you're going to make such claims, at least back it up.
Agreed.
He uses the term "budget" but I doubt very much that he means there was a fixed budget - and that he decided to blow almost all of it on two defenders. If that was the case, he probably wouldn't have admitted it openly. What he likely means is simply that most of the money we actually spent was spent on defenders - and he said this in response to a question about the defence posed by one of the journos. It's a nothing remark, as per usual - but people will obviously milk it for all it's worth.
Good question. I personally don’t want Ole Dof or not.
I do get it, you're pro Ole and that's fine. What I don't get with what you were criticising my post for is that I was agreeing with what the journo said, whether it's right or wrong is up for debate. Just because I agree with it doesn't mean to say it's right, who knows in the long term the majority of people in here who want Ole gone could be proven wrong. I don't really see how that's shouting into an echo chamber?I'm really not sure you got the point of my post at all, and that's fine, you keep shouting into your echo-chamber thinking I'm uptight.
Absolutely I want Ole to be given a top class squad and some time to prove what he can do.
This season he's done a decent job with a really poor selection of available players. If he'd been given the 2-3 extra we needed in the summer and we were this bad, we'd nearly all be accepting a need for him to leave.
If we change manager this year, then not only will we need 2-3 to fill our clear gaps (CM,AM,RW) plus maybe replace those reaching the end (Young, Mata, Matic etc ) he also might not fancy those that are here and take another year or more to, yet again, mould the squad to a different style.
That's fine if we had owners willing to spend 300m per year. Not with our parasites.
Actually, I'm pretty ole-agonistic at this point, I can see and understand the reasons people would want him to stay or leave, but my larger point was that there are far greater things wrong at United than who is coaching and leading the team, and by ignoring those things the article ignores the underlying concerns a lot of people have about the state of the club, from the general footballing structure, to the overall investment in infrastructure, recruitment and facilities. So actually, you don't really get it.
It's easy to rail on the most visible individual at the club, it's a much harder thing to assess and evaluate why we're at where we're at. You thought the article was good because it confirmed your opinions, and I'm saying the article is bad because it didn't make me question mine.
That is such a childish comment to make, you have no idea about whether I get it or not. Of course it's not solely Ole's fault, I never said it was. The problem is mainly at the top but lets face it, the Glazers don't look like selling and until they do then Woodward will be here too because he's their puppet.
There needs to be a proper structure in place, the club is so out of touch with the way the rest of the big clubs are going in the league it's quite frightening. We need a director of football/sporting director in place who are the focal point for both in's and outs in the market and the scouting network, we've wasted so much money on crap over the last few years you can see why we dither over nearly every player we try to buy.
On the pitch though is diabolical, Solskjaer's in game management is woeful. The lack of coaching is there for all to see, I think those wins we saw at the start of December were a fluke more than anything. Selling Lukaku and loaning out Sanchez without bringing in a replacement was damn right stupid as well. He's trying to pull on the fans heart strings by giving the young players a chance but when van Gaal did it everyone ridiculed him for it. Greenwood and Williams both look good but the rest of them look well out of their depth at this moment in time or simply not good enough.
At the end of it all, just because it's a mess at the top, doesn't mean with have to sit back and accept the shite we see on the pitch every week.
I don't get this part about control and domination. How buying two defenders will help you in that? I get the idea about wanting strong defence and Ole detected that right but even strongest defence in the world will not bring you control in games without good midfielders and good game plan. Not to mention that he bought full back who is not strong on the ball.
Am i reading this quote right?
Option 1. There just isn't enough reason to fire him. He has earned more time. At least the rest of the calendar year
It's an open ended quote which you can twist to suit any agenda, which is why it's getting a response on here.
We did not know that we would be missing key midfielders for large parts of the season. The fact is, any injuries were going to hurt us and leave us short in certain areas
I understand that local fans may have a different viewpoint, but as a foreign fan, I don't think it's wise to spend 80m just to make a statement to local talents. In fact, we have tried too hard in the past few years to prove ourselves as a big club which led to many failed signings, such as the likes of Schweinsteiger, Falcao, etc. There are plenty of talents around the world and the best way to attract them (local or not) is to improve the team and get better results.
I've heard enough about "ball playing defenders" and honestly I'm not a fan of it. You can refer to #11417 and #11426 for more details but in short, I could say we barely benefit from it. How often do Maguire and Lindelof successfully play a direct ball through the lines and create a chance? More often than not, we give the ball away unnecessarily in dangerous positions leading to opposition's counter attack. The idea of playing out from the back is to keep the ball and bring the ball forward safely, but with the lack of quality and creativity in midfield (you said it yourself), we usually swing the ball forward eventually, making the whole philosophy meaningless. The goal against Wolves came from a hopeful long ball from Maguire, just like Smalling always did. Last season we had Fred and McTominay ahead of Smalling and things went just fine.
Your last paragraph pinpointed a very thought-provoking question: why did Ole want Longstaff or Rice so bad? Why on earth we were linked to so many English players last summer? Why did we become Brexit FC all of a sudden? There were plenty of useful midfield options by that time, including Ndombele, Gueye, etc., but we were so affixed to English players.
"Selling Lukaku and loaning out Sanchez without bringing in a replacement was damn right stupid as well. "
On what basis do you conclude that Ole made the decision to not replace Lukaku? If you're right, that would probably make Ole the first manager in the history of the Premier League to prefer to sit on a pile of money than spend it on desperately needed players.
The fact is we will never know exactly who made or how these decisions are actually made but the club's management has under spent in the past two seasons when the club has been in desperate need of rebuilding. Meanwhile interest is being paid on loans benefiting the owners and dividends are paid out while our major competitors are outspending us.
On what basis do you conclude that Ole made the decision to not replace Lukaku? If you're right, that would probably make Ole the first manager in the history of the Premier League to prefer to sit on a pile of money than spend it on desperately needed players.
The fact is we will never know exactly who made or how these decisions are actually made but the club's management has under spent in the past two seasons when the club has been in desperate need of rebuilding. Meanwhile interest is being paid on loans benefiting the owners and dividends are paid out while our major competitors are outspending us.
Good post.
Regarding the first bold part: You may not agree with Maguire's price, i may not agree with it either but the truth is that Solskjaer's whole plan revolves around getting the "right" players in. Meaning that academy graduates and players who understand the culture of both the club and the country will be a priority for us. I believe that's the main reason why Maguire was rejected when Mourinho was in charge but he was given the green light when Solskjaer explained that a different approach was needed. Generally speaking, we lack experience and proper guidance on the pitch and most of the good teams both in England and in Europe are usually built around a core of local players who "get" the club and are willing to stay for a long period of time at it. But, as with many things that have to do with Solskjaer, while the initial ideas are good, the materialization of said ideas suffers from several faults. It's the story of his tenure thus far.
As i mentioned earlier, the build-up becomes problematic because of what happens in front of the back-four. First of all, we were not doing fine last season. In fact, we were flattering to deceive, even during Solskajer's magical start as the caretaker manager. Secondly, it's his team-building. If the goal, in the end, is to create a side able to press and maintain a high line, the defenders have to be adequate on the ball because they will often find themselves on the ball above the halfway line and they'll have to pass the ball forward or pick the right pass that will allow us to keep the momentum of our moves alive. Just remember how much LvG's gameplan suffered from having the "usual" suspects" playing sideways and backwards passes all the time.
We both agree that our main issues stem from what going on in the centre of the park. The midfield can't instil any sense of control because most of them are ball-winning midfielders who can cover much ground but with very poor positioning, poor close control and not much calmness under pressure. Which, of course, doesn't bode well with the notion that we want to win games by dominating them. Now, someone may argue that we miss Pogba. The counter-argument is that Pogba was supposed to be our #10 and he was pushed to a deeper position after it became clear that Longstaff/Rice wasn't coming. Furthermore, Pogba is a brilliant player but also a player of great moments. He's not the one who will help you dominate games through intricate short-passing. I believe Solskjaer is caught between two minds: Go for a high-pressing midfield or a more controlling one? Which will be route A? He ended up with neither and that's one of the main reasons why we look so disjointed on the pitch.
As for his transfer targets, i believe he's very idealistic to the point where he limits his choices. It's not solely a Brexit fc thing (we want a spine of British/Irish players but we will buy others too) but a case of "i want him". Look at the names we're linked with: Bruno, Rice, Longstaff, Can (even Mandjukic until recently), most of the rumours are persistent. It's an indication that Solskjaer has given Woodward a very short list to work with (which may explain Ed's admitted difficulty to get deals over the line).
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Yeah I did but its not the point is it? Nobody is going to be objective after today are they?
Made me laugh
First bolded part: Is it though? As far as we know its Woody and co who sits on the money. Then people would drag out his quote about how he was happy with the squad and use that as "proof" he did not want any more signing. Its clear as fecking day we needed more players. It was the reason Jose lost his shite when we only bought Fred in 2018
Second bolded: We needed a new CB and a new RB just as badly as we needed a CM. Both Rojo was out with a long term injury and when a player does hes ACL like he did, chances are his career is pretty much over. Baily had knee surgery scheduled this fall and is still out. That means we had Smalling, Lindelof and Jones. Jones is shite and constantly injured so if either of Smalling or Lindelof got a long term injury we would have been fecked. RB was simply a no brainer. We have not had a proper RB since Rafael da Silva left us
No one could foresee Pogba would call in sick the entire season. His fitness record thus far has been pretty good, so having him out for so long was probably not taken into account.
So yes, criticizing him for those things is pretty unfair imo. I constantly see people post things like: "Why did he not replace x player" "Why did he not buy y player" and "The squad is his responsibility". The last one is partially true, but also an incredibly simplistic and little nuanced statement. Sure hes (partly) responsible for the squad, but there was no way it could be fixed in one window, especially when Ed and co are stingy with the money.
I even see posts blaming him for injuries. I mean, how fecking far down the rabbit hole would you have tumbled if you truly believe something as absurd as that. Is he some kind of Machiavellian villain who tries to destroy the club from the inside? I know people think hes not a good enough manager, which is completely fair, but lets at least try and stick to the facts. All three players he bought this summer has walked straight into the first XI and improved us and some (like AWB) has been among our best and most consistent performers. To then try to point a picture of him shitting the bed in the transfer window because it suits a narrative is incredibly childish
As i said, we have the highest wage bill in the league and about half of our turnover goes to wages. That is not sustainable, especially when you consider how many wage thieves we had and still have. We are in the delightful position of having a squad that is both bloated and thin at the same time. Players like Rojo, Baily, Jones, Shaw, Dalot, Pogba, Lindgaard, Matic, Mata and Sanchez have barely contributed feck all on the pitch this year, yet all of these is paid massive weekly wages
Also, when people regularly use terms like "Ole in crowd" and "Ole out brigade" it paints a sad picture of what this forum has become. People are dug so firmly in their trenches now and have such strong biases that pretty much everything gets twisted to suit their agenda/narrative. If something cant be twisted, it conveniently gets ignored. Personally i still "back him" to some extent and will as long as hes our manager, but i wont lose any sleep if he is sacked in May. He was one of my favorite players of all time and is undoubtedly a club legend, but i having him as a manager here at all costs is not a hill i am willing to die on.
The reasons i find this constant bitching and bickering so exasperating is that
1. He wont be sacked now anyways. So calm the feck down and lets evaluate when the season is over
2. He gets stick for so many things out of his direct control (like mentioned above) and zero credit for anything from certain posters. Even Arteta gets lauded as a better manager by some of these people, despite his league record so far being 1-3-1. At the same time Ole had us at 5-0-0, but clearly the former is a much better manager because he has a "style" or some nonsense like that
3. The amount of vitriol thrown his way is pretty sad. Clown, cnut, clueless, league 1 manager etc. If he was that much of a bumbling moron, dont you think someone at the club would have noticed by now?
4. Players still fully back him, so changing managers now could seriously disrupt the squad
5. I dont want fecking Poch as manager.
1. He should have been sacked eons ago, not now, so I don't see why one shouldn't express their dissatisfaction
2. I agree the Arteta comparisons are daft, but they are no more daft than Ole in crowd claiming they see some sort of progress or something
3. Clown - he acts like one, clueless - which he is much of the time, league 1 manager - that's being kind. True vitriol
- nobody condones them
4. No wonder they do. He accepts mediocrity and backs them up publicly no matter what. As a bonus, you make millions despite being shite - what more do you want?
5. I would take Moyes back over Ole
Jose was sacked for losing to Liverpool at Anfield, with more points than we have now. How is he still here?
Something about noticeable improvements, culture change, yadda yadda yadda.
It's because he was once a player for us who scored some important goals, that's the reality nobody wants to face up to.
So two posts from ages a go and one that just stated the only way Solksjaer will get sacked if he loses every game. Hardly an epidemic of posters wishing we'd lose.
It's weird because on the one hand I don't doubt that he's trying his best to change the culture, and I like how he's clearing the squad out and bringing good young players through. But I just don't see anything in him as a coach. It's pretty telling that if he was sacked tomorrow, no other club in the top 5 leagues in Europe would be after him.
In all honesty, I reckon you should stick with Solskaer. Im not on the knoble when I say that your squad is not very good. I mean, not Man Utd good, and it isnt his squad. He has done well to keep you in contention for European football of any kind.
Obviously still 'Sack'.
I think things are going to start getting ugly the next few games. Our goals are going to dry up I reckon. 0-0 against Burnley midweek, I'd wager. Probably the same scoreline against Wolves, then, at best.
I think things are going to start getting ugly the next few games. Our goals are going to dry up I reckon. 0-0 against Burnley midweek, I'd wager. Probably the same scoreline against Wolves, then, at best.
You said there were none. I did a 1 minute search, using my phone and found those immediately. There are more.
You were wrong. Simple.
He’s fortunate that 34 points still leaves hope of finishing in the top 4, would be well out of the race in recent seasons. So little between a leave number of teams, 5th doesn’t look terrible but could easily plummet down the table.
I still cannot understand logic of persisting with such a limited manager and just hoping it all works out.
Club is rotten from top to bottom, we need an exceptional manager who can succeed in-spite of this not nostalgia and someone who has us playing like Molde.
I still cannot understand logic of persisting with such a limited manager and just hoping it all works out.
Club is rotten from top to bottom, we need an exceptional manager who can succeed in-spite of this not nostalgia and someone who has us playing like Molde.
This result really shouldn't change anything. Should have been sacked ages ago.
The poster I was replying to was claiming people had been wishing we'd lose against Liverpool, which wasn't the case and your posts proved that. I never denied there are some idiots that have said it before.
He should be sacked for accepting a `1-0 loss to Liverpool is good enough for Manchester United.
Ole isn't the right man, he's not bringing us back to the top. I think we all know this but no manager is without lack of real investment. We could get Poch tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference with this squad. United need to start investing properly and backing there manager. Rashford playing against wolves when he was injured was unforgivable. We'll see the true Glazers now Rashford is potentially out for the majority of the season. The real lack of ambition.
Glazers’ questions:
Then Ole stays.
- Are we in real danger of relegation?.... no?
- Will another manager accept our underinvestment without being vocal against board? .... no?
- Can we continue with Ed as DOF and buying championship players if Ole stays? .... yes
Then Ole stays.
Wow. No wonder the Ole Out crew is styled as a pack of slobbering hyenas. Lack of nuance and analysis. Just, “He’s not good enough.” Just out of curiosity, how long have you been a Utd fan?
Let’s reviews the facts of this season.
The negatives:
Results are not up to our expectations. I 100% concede this point. Bar one season with Jose, the club has failed to reach expectations in terms of challenging for the league since SAF retired. And that one season is pretty debatable.
Lukaku, Darmian, Herrera left. Smalling and Sanchez sent out on loan. No enough clearing of deadwood (Rojo, Matic, Mata, Lingard).
Three transfers in, Maguire, AWB and James. Not enough to fill our needs. The squad is very thin indeed.
Inconsistent.
Positives:
Have cut our goals allowed significantly compared to last season. I believe we are 4th in GA.
AWB, Maguire and James are good players. Effort and performance, for the most part have been good.
The emergence of Rashford. Potentially world class in a few years.
Martial settling in to a no. 9 role. At times, thriving.
Style and patterns of play are improving. Clearly, we are dependent upon pace and wing play.
Emergence of Greenwood. Fantastic.
Emergence of Brandon Williams. He might be my favorite player already.
Brought back Fred from the dead and buried category. Was incredible today, we just need more quality when finishing.
Positivity from Ole. The anti-Jose. Never throws anyone under the bus. Always backs his players.
The players like him, and give effort. Execution has been lacking at times, but effort has never been in question. A small squad means we can’t continue playing 2 games a week with just 15 reliable players. I think a lot of people mistake lack of effort with exhaustion.
In 5th place. Still in FA Cup. In Europa. Will most likely lose the League cup semifinals.
Pogba has played 8 out of 34 matches. McTominay is injured. Martial was injured, Shaw was injured. Still 5th with our best player out for 80% of matches.
Is this good enough? No. Would I rather finish 5th with the youngest starting squad in the PL, and potential for the future than finish 4th with a bunch of high-wage, jaded mercenaries with a poor mentality. Yes.
What the Ole Out group fails to see is that this rebuild is likely a three step process. 1. Restructure scouting and talent acquisition philosophy. 2. Bring in Ole or someone who loves the club to manage while we are restocking the cupboard—which may take 2 years. 3. If Ole can’t manage the talent to PL and CL challenger, then find a manager who can. But at least the new manager will have good talent to work with and add to.
If we just keep replacing the manager, we’ll never address our organizational problems, because the new manager will have pressure to win now.
this 100%
Today we rode our luck to lose only 1-0. It could have been 4 or 5. Real underdog stuff with a real underdog manager. Our set pieces (defence and attack) are dreadfully poor. The players are at least trying (unlike the last days of Mourinho) but overall there are no valid reasons to continue with this bizarre experiment of employing someone from Molde.
Jose had thrown the whole team under the bus over the last year. Nobody was good enough, smart enough, quick enough, and so on. The only players Jose still wanted in his team was DDG nad Lukaku. And perhaps Matic.
And the game we lost against Liverpool under Mourinho, we weren't even close. That game Liverpool had the ball like 70 % of the time. They had over 30 shots on us, with more than 10 shots hitting the target. And Moutinho pretty much had a fully fit squad, he just chose to start with Lingard, Young, Darmian and Matic.
This time it was 1-0, and until they had a counter-attack on us in the 93rd minute, we were closer on 1-1, then they were on 2-0.
Since Ole first defeat v PSG. P53 W23 D12 L18.
The defeats are racking up.
The defeats are racking up.
Ridiculous post. LvG was sacked when he didn't achieve top 4, as was Moyes. Mourinho was let go because he had thrown the team under the buss and had completely lost the players. If anything that shows the bare minimum.
Letw see what happens come may.
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Injuries; lack transfers; small margins; not even time; grass too long at Old Trafford; too much wind speed at away grounds.
How was he supposed to exceed.
Ah yes, right, we are lesser United fans. Typical top red mentality right there.
You've already addressed some of the negatives, so I'm not going to bother.
Positives - Rashford has always been bordering on world class, but this will arguably be his best season, and you want to credit Ole for it, so go ahead.
The rest, I disagree - Martial has appeared to have settled under the 3rd manager. Fact is he hasn't improved nor deteriorated.
Signings - average to good. When Ole gets the sack, however, expect at least some of them to be new deadwood. Didn't adequately replace players he allowed to leave, but no, let's blame Ed for it.
Greenwood/Williams - youngsters are being unearthed by pretty much every manager since Fergie, despite their otherwise poor tenures. Whether they will make it here eventually remains to be seen.
Tables - sure, 5th sounds great until you look at the points. 34 from 22? Moyes was sacked for much less. Haven't faced a half-decent team in Europa, played one whole round of games in the FA cup which we struggled to win anyway, likely to get schooled by City in the league cup.
Basically, what he's done is a more or less the same shitty job every manager before him has, but has, and will continue to get a pass because he's a club legend. And no, his successor won't feel they have a much easier rebuild job on their hands, because that's a fecking lie.
What the Ole in group really has got going for them is blind faith that things will somehow fall in place when you give any manager time, even if they have not demonstrated progress by any objective measure, because he's not, nor will he ever, tick any of your rebuild process boxes other than loving the club when he does get the sack.
Both games were pretty similar to me, we were never in either game. We had 2 chances, but Liverpool should've been out of sight today.
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