The only reason why I do not think Poch is the man is I think he is too rigid in his ways. He does not change his style to compensate for the opposition. This is why. Not because he is a bad coach. I think he is a top class coach. Klopp changed his style a bit at Liverpool too after his first season. Poch has not done so at Spurs and this is the reason why he lost some important games that he should have won. SAF was very good at it. Yes he made mistakes too thinking he could play his normal game against Barca in the Cup Finals but in most times he was flexible especially when he had good assistants. With Ole he is taking the club down maybe not position wise but certainly status wise. Everyone apart from the club owners know that he is not good enough. Blind faith is not good enough in sports.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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The only reason why I do not think Poch is the man is I think he is too rigid in his ways. He does not change his style to compensate for the opposition. This is why. Not because he is a bad coach. I think he is a top class coach. Klopp changed his style a bit at Liverpool too after his first season. Poch has not done so at Spurs and this is the reason why he lost some important games that he should have won. SAF was very good at it. Yes he made mistakes too thinking he could play his normal game against Barca in the Cup Finals but in most times he was flexible especially when he had good assistants. With Ole he is taking the club down maybe not position wise but certainly status wise. Everyone apart from the club owners know that he is not good enough. Blind faith is not good enough in sports.
NO, based on SAF quotes
If you can't support Us when we Lose
Don't support us when we Win
If you can't support Us when we Lose
Don't support us when we Win
Did you even read or comprehend anything in the post you replied to???
If so , Your post makes no sense at all. You can’t polish shit, so you don’t know if OGS is the wrong man, beyond your own bias. And as @Lebowski so patiently explained in his post, our squad right now is certainly not full of rough diamonds, let alone high quality karat.
It’s no use to even arguing with these people. When we won games against City & Spurs, some of the changed their mind and want to give Ole more time, but some of them also criticised that Ole only did good against team Who are not low blocks. When we beat the likes of those low blocks team such as Newcastle & Burnley, those people went under the rock. And now that we lost against non low block team, you came out from your ridiculous hiding place to criticise the manager.
Let’s just be straight forward. This type of inconsistency results is nothing surprising. It’s something you lot need to expect from young players & also non world class players. Beside, it’s unfortunate that Pogba & McTominay are injured again and those two are our main midfielder, Pogba is our only creative player and this game sums it up why we struggled to create chances. A new different manager will get the same inconsistency result with what we got right now.
Let’s just be straight forward. This type of inconsistency results is nothing surprising. It’s something you lot need to expect from young players & also non world class players. Beside, it’s unfortunate that Pogba & McTominay are injured again and those two are our main midfielder, Pogba is our only creative player and this game sums it up why we struggled to create chances. A new different manager will get the same inconsistency result with what we got right now.
To much favouritism from our fans and the club, who gives a feck who or what Ole has done for the club many years ago the fact of the matter is he is clueless when things are not going our way. So it’s a no brainier that he shouldn’t be here, I just can’t see how anyone would want to defend him other then they are still drooling over 99... wipe your drool, close your mouth and grow a pair!
Some may do but to me is the lack of basics. At this level you can get these players to play in any decent way if they are setup right. These are all International players. There seem to be one tactics. Counter attack. But not how to counter attack. You cannot counter attack if the other team is not attacking you. Today we saw the other side of good tactics by Arteta. He overloaded our left. No one realised that. Not even the coaching staff so they did not get our players to cover it. At this level the coaching staff should have seen it. They didn't and that is where we conceded the first goal. The second goal was the same. We did not expect Arsenal to play a near post flick. Why didn't we expect it? My view is that we never take a near post flick and never expected another team to do it.
When you look at United play it always seem that this was the first time they are playing together. Stating that Scott and Pogba are injured is a cop out. Scott's presence would not stopped the first two goals anyway.
Erm... no, we wouldn't.
If Klopp or Guardiola took over this United side and were given the time that Ole's been gifted, and the money that he's spent, you would be seeing a coherent, well-drilled, relevant football side.
You're flat-out implying that literally no-one - not even the two best coaches on Earth - could do better than a fecking Molde manager ffs.
Laughable... and genuinely surreal that people can come out with such utter nonsense.
Keeping the top reds and United pundits from criticising the club too much. That allows the Glazers the time to plunder the club and for Woodward to mess things up in peace
How is this poll still this close? Do some of you not like seeing us win football games?
We beat the likes of Burnley & Newcastle. We had 67% possessions with 24 shots against Everton, and we lost today which counter attack should have been effective against Arsenal. All of these don’t seem indicate that the main issue is we only have one tactic. What about start to realise that inconsistency is to be expected from this bunch of players. Lack of creativity in the team can also be another reason of it, which is what our previous managers had left us with.
You gave credit to Arteta for beating us with “good tactic” and criticised Ole at the same time but what about you also need to mention that we saw the side of good tactics by Ole when we won. If you watch the game, you should had realised that the reason why we lost today was because how poor our players were today. We could counter attack them but everytime we won the ball back we end up gave the ball away with poor passings and poor decision making.
Arteta’s been in charge of Arsenal for 2 weeks and already we can see his style of play coming through. But Ole needs 5 windows just to achieve the same thing ?
This nonsense about Klopp or Pep beingin charge of United and going just as crap as Ole needs to stop.
You could put Ole in charge of Henderson, James Milner, Salah, Robertson, Matip, Keita, Trent, Gomez, Shakiri, Firminho, Mane, etc etc and that team would not even be top 4. Let’s not discredit Klopp. He didn’t sign a bunch a galaticos. He signed players that no one would have thought of and no none expected to become so great.
No we lost today not only because the players we poor but because no one on the bench saw what was happening and we did not practice for the set pieces. I have never ciriticed his when we win but at the same time I have always said I feel he is not competent enough to take us to the top. A blind man could see what was happening before they scored the first goal in how they were getting Xhaka as a false left back on our right side. A competent coach would have seen it and got it covered. We didn't and we suffered, We never take a near post flick and of course we conceded from a near post flick. These are not due to players only. These are tactics done on the training pitch.
At this volatile period, having a former player at the helm sure helps to drastically lower public critisicm/creates support for their 'multi-year rebuild plan'. It hides their monumental incompetence & makes it look like they know what they're doing from the outside.
They are very clever, that's for sure.
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What? In 2nd half we basically dominated the possession. You can’t say that we didn’t see what was happening in first half. We only conceded one corner, and that corner alone was when they scored, how can you make assumption that one chance from corner means we didn’t practice for the set pieces. If they had lot of chances to score from set pieces, I can see why you said that but arsenal barely even had a chance from set pieces.
You never criticised him when we won which is the obvious thing to do but you never give him a credit like how you gave Arteta credit which is nothing is surprising coming from someone who is taking agenda by making assumption.
We conceded our first goal in 8th min, how can you expect someone to figure out in first 5 min what was happening? Totally biased statement you got there.
Like I said before inconsistency is to be expected. Players today didn’t perform, we are normally so good with counter attack but today whenever we won the ball back, we failed to get the pass on target, some players lost the ball easily with poor touch like Lingard and some players made poor decision making like James.
I just feel like crying to be honest. So much wrong in so many places. The team has some good players but a lot of better than average players.
Defense - AWB and Luke Shaw have to be two of the worst attacking full backs in the league.Man United always had good attacking full backs under Fergie. This is seriously affecting James and Rashfords performances, No support on the wings whatsoever, no wing backs to link up with. I'm not gonna slate Maguire and Lindelof because they are getting no protection whatsoever from midfield. Maguire is not worth 80 million either but still feel the two of them are decent center backs. Williams will hopefully be a regular next season and actually rate Young better than Shaw,
Midfield - Where do I start? I like Fred but see him as more of a number 10 player than a center midfielder, Matic Legs are gone, Andreas and Scott are just not good enough,there both slightly better than average players, Lingard should be in the championship. Pogba is a number 10 player as well not a center midfielder.
A minimum of three proper center midfielders is needed. If Pogba stays along with Fred they can battle out the number 10 role. Rest can be got rid of.
Attack - I actually like the front three of Rashford, Martial and James but are getting no support whatsoever from the midfield and full backs. We could do really do with a World class striker. Greenwood will be in four or five years but that's a long way off.
OLE - Learn how to get the team to press properly and there is other tactics than using 4-2-3-1, Why not go for a 4-3-3 today? I still think another manager would have us in the top four comfortably at this stage even with the flaws of the midfield.
The base is there for a good team but the midfield is really letting the team down big time. Like i said, three new center midfielders and get rid of the deadwood.
Hopefully Williams will be a regular next season.
Rant over
Defense - AWB and Luke Shaw have to be two of the worst attacking full backs in the league.Man United always had good attacking full backs under Fergie. This is seriously affecting James and Rashfords performances, No support on the wings whatsoever, no wing backs to link up with. I'm not gonna slate Maguire and Lindelof because they are getting no protection whatsoever from midfield. Maguire is not worth 80 million either but still feel the two of them are decent center backs. Williams will hopefully be a regular next season and actually rate Young better than Shaw,
Midfield - Where do I start? I like Fred but see him as more of a number 10 player than a center midfielder, Matic Legs are gone, Andreas and Scott are just not good enough,there both slightly better than average players, Lingard should be in the championship. Pogba is a number 10 player as well not a center midfielder.
A minimum of three proper center midfielders is needed. If Pogba stays along with Fred they can battle out the number 10 role. Rest can be got rid of.
Attack - I actually like the front three of Rashford, Martial and James but are getting no support whatsoever from the midfield and full backs. We could do really do with a World class striker. Greenwood will be in four or five years but that's a long way off.
OLE - Learn how to get the team to press properly and there is other tactics than using 4-2-3-1, Why not go for a 4-3-3 today? I still think another manager would have us in the top four comfortably at this stage even with the flaws of the midfield.
The base is there for a good team but the midfield is really letting the team down big time. Like i said, three new center midfielders and get rid of the deadwood.
Hopefully Williams will be a regular next season.
Rant over
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And what helps these cunning leeches is that a good chunk of our supporter base are daft. For that lot, supporting the manager is more important than results and progress. Only on this forum you can see stuff like " even Pep and Klopp could not deal with this mess" "every defeat is the players fault" and more such inane statements.
Modern football is a ruthless affair. There is no scope for romanticism and hoping for miracles to happen and unlikely corners to be turned.
But in all likelihood we will see Ole tarnish his legacy forever by the time he is relieved of his duties, something he could have avoided by walking.
Because it is not in the 8th minute that Arsenal started to load our left side. The moment they start to do it someone from the bench should be out screaming about it. They didn't is their incompetency. When a coach sees that the other side has a plan and is about to execute it he should it. Be it the first minute or the last minute. Even a blind man can see what was going on from the start.
Ffs Ole.....love you but move on mate.
We basically already conceded a goal in 8th min, like what you said before it was not in the 8th min. What makes you think coaches could prevent that first goal by screaming about it when it was not in the 8th min when Arsenal started to load our left side?
If you think a blind man can see what's going on from the start, I wonder why you can't see that we actually took control of the game in the first 7 min before the goal happened? Lingard couldn't hold the ball or lost possession two or three times in that first 7 min and James wasted our chance with poor pass. A blind one can see that our players performed poorly in the whole game even from the start before the goal happened and that was the reason we lost. Their poor performance weren't overshadowed by just tactic but actually by individual errors that should be done better.
Absolutely. Just because ‘99 happened it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t call a spade a spade when it comes to Ole.
‘The United way’, ‘our DNA’, ‘building towards something’, ‘we bounce back again’ are nothing but self-manufactured bullshit designed to bail himself out whenever the going gets tough (i.e. every other week), and people are buying it like the whole charade is the second coming of Fergie when in fact it’s nothing more than a failed tribute act. Van Gaal was viciously ridiculed when he kept banging on about ‘philosophy’. Unbelievable.
We need to get little bigger perspective. Yes Ole is not good enough, but also look at the table.
From 5th to 15th, these 16 clubs are separated by just 7 points (5th have 31, 15th have 24 points). This is after playing 21 matches. We have clubs like us, spurs, arsenal in that group. Its not just us but other top clubs too are struggling to pile up points. It indicates significant lift of quality, both player and manager, among over dozen of PL clubs. This is unforgiving place for any error or lack of performance. You need super squad or an above average squad with high flying moral. Without which survival is difficult as hell here.
So, criticize our players, club and manager but also please give due respect to the competition.
From 5th to 15th, these 16 clubs are separated by just 7 points (5th have 31, 15th have 24 points). This is after playing 21 matches. We have clubs like us, spurs, arsenal in that group. Its not just us but other top clubs too are struggling to pile up points. It indicates significant lift of quality, both player and manager, among over dozen of PL clubs. This is unforgiving place for any error or lack of performance. You need super squad or an above average squad with high flying moral. Without which survival is difficult as hell here.
So, criticize our players, club and manager but also please give due respect to the competition.
We, Spurs and Arsenal are just having a rubbish season. Nothing to do with the quality of the mid-table clubs.
Personally would keep, but understand why fans want him binned. If we do keep him we have to as fans accept that there must be a change the strategy from the top down in order to make this work and it will take time, possibly even up to 4 or 5 years before there is any legitimate traction. (I'm okay with this if there is obvious markers for making this happen. But completely understand that this would be unacceptable for how splintered the fan base became after Moyes and Van Gaal.) If we do this we need to bin pretty much every high earner who hasn't cemented the value of the wage and fix the scouting network to find us the best of the best low wage triers from obscurity that are on the verge of hitting the big time as a player and cultivate them over mid term period and start to dismantle the wage bill shambles that we have. At times I've seen the signs of that this will be happening over the next five years but definitely don't trust Woodward to helm this kind of strategy and with him at the top I can only see the fan-narrative driven quick fix "the players are never at fault" and "bin that guy? He's got 943,000,000 instagram followers? We can't just bin him?.." shit that we've seen over the last 18 months. I can't see the fanbase staying patient for that long either, maybe if the club came out and laid out a 5 year plan properly. But even then, this was eye opening how quickly it became Ole's fault again with the same players all refusing to take any responsibility during the 90 minutes on the field.
The situation has just become bizarre. Acting as if we don't need to try to get back to the top and then rewarding hordes of players who clearly don't deserve it for the mediocrity. I don't see how we get out of this without a long slog and legitimate structural reform of the club from match day to squad strategy. Even just binning off the manager I don't think will work anymore. It needs a total nuclear scorched earth re-build and a club of this size just shambling along day to day off the back of one of the greatest ever men to walk the earth's legacy won't be re-tooling quickly that is for sure.
The situation has just become bizarre. Acting as if we don't need to try to get back to the top and then rewarding hordes of players who clearly don't deserve it for the mediocrity. I don't see how we get out of this without a long slog and legitimate structural reform of the club from match day to squad strategy. Even just binning off the manager I don't think will work anymore. It needs a total nuclear scorched earth re-build and a club of this size just shambling along day to day off the back of one of the greatest ever men to walk the earth's legacy won't be re-tooling quickly that is for sure.
A couple of points.
Firstly, when the game kicks off the power of a manager to influence the result is pretty small. Ole's tactical setup against sides who play a low block needs addressing as we have no idea how to break them down. However, these are also usually the matches where you rely the most on the individual quality of your players. That's clearly something we don't have.
Secondly, if we had a Director of Football who had a blueprint for the long-term plan and the style of football we will play, then I could understand the desire to sack Ole if this individual thought he wasn't compatible with the plan. At the moment though Ole is the only person who seems to have a long-term plan, and trusting Woodward to replace him with the right manager for continuity seems incredibly unlikely. Given the past few years, it would be far more likely to expect us to lurch to a new style that requires new players and start again from the ground up.
This. The bolded part and the last sentence is exactly my concern and what I have been posting about only to be told that I’m making excuses for Ole.
One thing that is certain is that Ed will not replace Ole with a suitable replacement, that’s why people like myself look to what have been the positives under Ole and can’t bare the thought of starting from scratch.
Just to clarify, I mean Pep and Klopp come in to replace Ole now - same players and same club structure we have now, so the only difference is the quality of their coaching - not at some other time in the past. I really think we would see the same inconsistent performances under any other manager.
It's a counterfactual so we can't prove or disprove it, but my rationale for not expecting a manager to miraculously improve a crap team is based on recent evidence. Klopp finished 8th in his first season, which is probably going to end up being lower than Ole finishes this season. Now did Klopp only become one of the best coaches on earth after this or was the quality of the squad and Liverpool's brilliant recruitment department the main reason for their improvement? Pellegrini won the league with city but has just been sacked by West Ham after getting them into a relegation battle. Did he forget how to be a title-winning manager after he left city or is the quality of the players at his disposal the main difference? Also, we've had two of the most qualified managers in recent history who both never failed to win the league at any of their previous clubs, yet both failed to mount any title challenge here. Did the drive on the M60 rob both managers of their ability or was the club structure and player quality too poor for them to achieve results?
I know it's trendy to heap praise on certain managers and build up this jesus-like opinion of their brilliance, but every single manager needs the players and club structure in order to achieve success. Our players are young, inconsistent and not good enough. Our club has a structure criticised endlessly for being behind the times and more focused on profit than on-field success. Ole may turn out to be not good enough to manage a top club. However, until we fix the rest of our problems, no manager will be able to succeed here.
Nonsense. They were shite vs Bournemouth and Chelsea and they scored two scrappy goals yesterday. So far hes at 1W, 1D, 1L. What kind of style are they playing really?
I get that people are frustrated with Ole and want him out, but this bigging up of literally any other manager is ridiculous
Probably because the grass looks greener for practically every other PL club manager wise. I don't think you'd find a single PL club whose fans would swap their manager for Ole, that's amazingly scary for Manchester United.
You can't separate the style from results it seems. Klopp or Pep didn't have the results right away but the clear plan and the way of playing was seen from week 1.
I'm sorry but this is a nonsense argument; what was Ole's record after two weeks?
Agreed
Because this whole "style" argument is just vague nonsense. Arsenal have not been playing any differently under Ljungberg/Arteta than they did under Emery. To claim they look drastically different now than they did 1,2 or 3 months ago just reeks of confirmation bias
Ole won his 12 first games in a row. To now claim Arteta is some kind of genius after going 1-1-1 in his first three is absurd.
Our squad is getting worse and worse under him. Losing Pogba and Smalling, keeping De Gea, Lingard, Jones, Shaw. Seriously, we are going backwards. Our squad wont be good enough for years and he cant improve players collectively, whats the point? He isn't coaching, individual brilliance is all he is relying upon and there wont be much under him, we will lose our best players
Agreed. Instead we get inconsistency, the Ole death stare and high fives to his mates
He literally has no control over the players. Too nice of a guy as Van Persie even said.
There's a lot I disagree with here.
Firstly, Arteta has been at the club for about a week so it's far too early to even see what his style of play is going to be, let alone whether he's achieved it already. He fired up a massively under-performing team and his players controlled the game after getting an early goal against a side famous for not knowing what to do when they go behind. He may well turn out to be a better manager than Ole, but using his embryonic managerial career as evidence for this is like saying an ultrasound of Messi kicking in his mother's womb is evidence he was always going to be a brilliant free-kick taker.
Klopp has done an incredible job at Liverpool, and he's arguably the best manager in the world. However, by your own admission, a big part of his success was his signing players that nobody would have thought would go on to be so effective in his system. This comes from the club's recruitment department, not his coaching ability. He finished 8th in his first season with the team he inherited from Rodgers.
Klopp is a magnificent motivator and tactician, no question. But along with a manager with those attributes, you need a recruitment department who can identify and bring in the players you need, a club with right plan, ambition, patience, vision and structure. We have none of those. Ole would probably do far worse than Klopp at Liverpool, granted, but similarly Klopp would almost certainly not have been able to achieve what he has at Liverpool with United.
Ole is just the last of an endless list of cockups done by Woodward. How on earth does someone who failed at any non amateur club he managed go on managing United on a permanent basis ? How can anyone be so naive in blowing 130m on 2 defenders who are decent but not great when our midfield and RW are virtually not existent? That move had only pissed off Smalling whose nearly as good as Maguire is and will probably leave for a measly 15m. That's 65m spent on a slight upgrade.
However while I do believe that a top manager would help improve matters,I doubt that we'll ever be top dogs again, at least until Woodward is still in command. I mean how can anyone rebuild this team when we've got a CEO who think that we should still give contract extensions to players who aren't performing because its difficult for our club to go beyond the 3 signings per season? That's basically an invitation to complacency. Not to forget that 3 players per season is not enough to keep the squad fresh let alone igniting a true rebuild. If we take in consideration we lost Herrera, Fellaini, Lukaku and we'll probably soon be losing Young, Pogba, Smalling, Rojo, Matic, Gomes and Chong then 3 players won't be enough. What about the RW? What about the forward line?
Haaland has just rejected Ole's plan despite the latter is a legend in Norway, his former manager and his father's former team mate. Sure many were quick to suggest that it was all because of money or clauses. However I don't really buy that anymore, certainly not after what Moyes, LVG, Herrera, Raiola and Mourinho had said that is that this club is run not as a football club but as a business. I don't blame Haaland for not coming. This club is going nowhere.
If Ole keeps playing Lingard he should be sacked. Pereira has been much better recently but Lingard started against Arsenal. Unfair to Pereira and very unfair to the fans who have to watch Lingard play.
Lingard should have been taken of before half time because he was really bad but instead he got 65 minutes. Ole seems to like Lingard but if he cant take the 'difficult decision' and get rid of Lingard he deserves to be sacked.
Stop playing Lingard = better results = Ole can stay.
Lingard should have been taken of before half time because he was really bad but instead he got 65 minutes. Ole seems to like Lingard but if he cant take the 'difficult decision' and get rid of Lingard he deserves to be sacked.
Stop playing Lingard = better results = Ole can stay.
Ole was never meant to be hired on a permanent basis. You could say that he got the job on merit after his intial very good 15 game run, but it's been downhill since PSG. The whole point of having OGS as interim manager was to lift the mood until we found the right candidate for the manager job. It was never intended to be Ole. Everyone here wanted Poch when Mourinho was sacked. He's avaible now, but I can understand the skeptism considering he's coming off his worst season ever as well.
Apart from Pogba this has been the most unified squad since Fergie left, every other manager had disharmony and leaks within months.
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