And this is Ole's fault ?
He's the one who is trying to fix this tbf.
Yeah, no he's not. The stats are loaded to make him look bad. They're only showing his win % since he got the job permanently, they've completely disregarded his win % from when he was interim and we went on that 12 game win streak.
Heaven forbid our manager does quite well and so we end up not being able to sack him for someone else. That would be just awful.Right now, I'd look at keeping Ole til the end of the season, but be looking to sign someone up in the meantime for next.
If Ole does well from now on, consider it a successful stepping stone. We absolutely do not want to be in a position where Ole does quite well, we miss out on our opportunity to hire someone else, and then next season it falls apart.
In what way is he doing worse than Moyes exactly? He’s taken over a struggling side and made changes that have left us with one of the youngest sides in the league.
Despite that we’re in fifth place, under Moyes at this point we were eight (with one more point) despite him taking over the best team in the league and adding Fellaini to it.
Even Mourinho had us 6th at this point in the season, with three more points, and he had ibrahimovic and Pogba in his side.
You do know we're considering the last 12 months, not the small sample size you are referring to. Over the other 32 games we have looked lost and clueless for large parts. That shouldn't be the case 12 months into the "plan".
Risking being set back another 5 years because we didn't take our chance for the second time wouldn't be a smart move either.Heaven forbid our manager does quite well and so we end up not being able to sack him for someone else. That would be just awful.
That statement itself does not make sense. You are judging him over his tenure, which includes playing with a team that 'wasn't his'. At what point of that tenure do you start judging if it's not recent form?
At what point did the plan start taking shape? At the start when he came in just to steady the ship? The bit after when he had to decide who he was keeping or not and deal with players who didn't want to play for us? The start of the season when our new players are getting used to playing together and he has to judge which are good enough to start? The period after when we are without some of the key players for his plan?
Surely recent form is the best indicator of whether that plan is taking shape, not the games at the start of the plan before it had even began taking shape.
Does that make sense?
Solskjær after 16 matches: 5thMoyes points per game 1.73.
Ole since December - 1.54
Ole Since March - 1.45
If you're gonna post stats, post the correct stats:Since Dec 18(caretaker + Permanent)-
57 points from 34 games.
1.67 points per game.
Actually he is completing a season this weekend and the maximum we can get is 60 points which would have got us 7th last season.
On a different note, i don't care about stats if we can see an improvement in the game play. I brought it only because the poster who quoted me referred it .
Moyes points per game 1.73.
Ole since December - 1.54
Ole Since March - 1.45
You have a very limited memory then. We had 2 good games but in most we looked as poor as it can get with hardly any chances created, lost and clueless
Since Dec 18(caretaker + Permanent)-
57 points from 34 games.
1.67 points per game.
Actually he is completing a season this weekend and the maximum we can get is 60 points which would have got us 7th last season.
On a different note, i don't care about stats if we can see an improvement in the game play. I brought it only because the poster who quoted me referred it .
Don't think it's as simple as that, or every team would simply buy rapid players and defenders alone. The issue for us runs a bit deeper and results do bear it out. Against bigger teams, we're able to cover our biggest flaw - which is the absence of a really good, creative CAM / #10. In smaller games, this leads to us having a lot of the ball - but nobody who can pick the lock of a parked defence. Our forwards don't have space - and don't have someone behind to pick a sly run that earns them a yard. So even if the movement is good, we can't get the ball into the right areas to shoot. This makes us look toothless and incapable of scoring.
Against bigger teams, there's more space to run into (because they push forward) and that pass becomes easier to pick. This is where a guy like Lingard poses the issue. At his best, he offers pressing and running - and this works a treat in the big games. But he's not the most creative when he actually has the ball. His biggest skill is "off-the-ball movement". Hardly what you need in the CAM / #10 for smaller games.
No amount of "tactical adjustment" can account for this flaw. Then you look at the bench / squad and realize that with Pogba injured, Lingard really is the best option. Andreas is worthless, Mata too slow and behind those, all we have are Levitt, Garner and Mason. None is a #10. Gomes is lightweight and has not looked "ready for this level" in his albeit limited auditions - but more than anything, I think it's safe to say that Ole knows how to handle the youth. So we can probably say quite safely that none of them is ready yet to be playing that position for the first team.
The return of Pogba (the one player we have who can provide that creative spark) will be critical. If Ole can get him to play the 10 / CAM role effectively ahead of Fred and McT, we should see an immediate uptick in the games against smaller teams. If Ole is still unable to get anything, we should look at what is wrong tactically / in terms of setup / coaching.
We can of course focus on why he's gone 3 at the back in some games or his making subs very late on...
Aye, thanks. Post corrected.If you're gonna post stats, post the correct stats:
Ole Interrim+perm 2018/19, 21 matches - 12W/4D/5L - 40 points
Ole perm 2019/20, 16 matches - 6W/6D/4L - 24 points
With one match to go for a complete season. Max 67 points, not 60. Not that it matters much, because both would have gotten us 6th last season. Did you really count Manchester United ahead of us on the table? Come on!!
Here you got it wrong again: Ole since December (64 points / 37 games) - 1,73 points per game.
Even in your previous post you operate with different numbers. Sloppy work!
If you really going by an interim table position, I rest my case.Solskjær after 16 matches: 5th
Moyes after 16 matches: 8th
I find it frightening how easily some people are swayed in a really definitive manner.
Since the City victory, the 'sack ole' tally has dropped by about 3%.
Do some of you really need just that smallest boost of positivity and feelgood factor (getting one over on City / Jose/both) to firmly change your minds about something? You must incredibly fairweather and undependable in everyday life.
You aren't formulating your own opinions, you're basically functioning on chemical impulses like an insect or something...…..or in other words, like The Hive Mind. GOOD RESULT - IN. BAD RESULT - OUT. GOOD RESULT - IN. BAD RESULT - OUT.
If you want him in, then stick to your guns the next time we lose to relegation fodder. Likewise, if you want him out, stick to your guns the next time he beats a top 4 team 2-1 with counter-attacking football.
There's nothing wrong with being swayed or convinced otherwise by something or someone. But it's worrying to do so so quickly and definitively. I will happily change my own vote to 'keep Ole' if he shows me signs of progress - IE - Beating smaller teams regularly and with confidence.
Thanks for your positivity. We win and you’re pissed off that people saw something and changed their minds. Jesus. I guess some people are happy being miserable....
I’m going by our league position this season mate.If you really going by an interim table position, I rest my case.
I don’t think you’ve counted the new voters into your equation, Sir. There’s around 500 new votes the last month and a half, and that tells me that a lot of fans in here are either «on the fence» or haven’t bothered voting here for some reason.I find it frightening how easily some people are swayed in a really definitive manner.
Since the City victory, the 'sack ole' tally has dropped by about 3%.
Do some of you really need just that smallest boost of positivity and feelgood factor (getting one over on City / Jose/both) to firmly change your minds about something? You must incredibly fairweather and undependable in everyday life.
You aren't formulating your own opinions, you're basically functioning on chemical impulses like an insect or something...…..or in other words, like The Hive Mind. GOOD RESULT - IN. BAD RESULT - OUT. GOOD RESULT - IN. BAD RESULT - OUT.
If you want him in, then stick to your guns the next time we lose to relegation fodder. Likewise, if you want him out, stick to your guns the next time he beats a top 4 team 2-1 with counter-attacking football.
There's nothing wrong with being swayed or convinced otherwise by something or someone. But it's worrying to do so so quickly and definitively. I will happily change my own vote to 'keep Ole' if he shows me signs of progress - IE - Beating smaller teams regularly and with confidence.
How many wins in a row do we need to have your permission to be happy with the manager, please?I find it frightening how easily some people are swayed in a really definitive manner.
Since the City victory, the 'sack ole' tally has dropped by about 3%.
Do some of you really need just that smallest boost of positivity and feelgood factor (getting one over on City / Jose/both) to firmly change your minds about something? You must incredibly fairweather and undependable in everyday life.
You aren't formulating your own opinions, you're basically functioning on chemical impulses like an insect or something...…..or in other words, like The Hive Mind. GOOD RESULT - IN. BAD RESULT - OUT. GOOD RESULT - IN. BAD RESULT - OUT.
If you want him in, then stick to your guns the next time we lose to relegation fodder. Likewise, if you want him out, stick to your guns the next time he beats a top 4 team 2-1 with counter-attacking football.
There's nothing wrong with being swayed or convinced otherwise by something or someone. But it's worrying to do so so quickly and definitively. I will happily change my own vote to 'keep Ole' if he shows me signs of progress - IE - Beating smaller teams regularly and with confidence.
And I am going by the points achieved through extended run of games (almost a season) .I’m going by our league position this season mate.
True enough. I've been Ole out from the start. I don't go game by game as many seem to be doing or else I would of been voting Ole in after the draw with Liverpool, then beating Norwich and Chelski away but then I would of had to change my vote back to Ole Out after the defeat by Bournmouth and the draws against Sheffield and Villa. It doesn't make sense.They'll 'see something' again next time we lose mate, and switch their opinion back to Ole Out.
Your points achieved were wrong anyway.And I am going by the points achieved through extended run of games (almost a season) .
Table position says nothing. Arsenal were relegation contenders until last week but now are only 2 points off 5th.
How many wins in a row do we need to have your permission to be happy with the manager, please?
Seriously though, I can see what you mean by the fickleness but you can't just brush off wins against Mourinho and Guardiola like everyday occurrences, not when it has been Ole's tactical nous that has been most in question this season.
It's more frightening how many fans seem to want him to fail, for various reasons.
PPM is still the same with Moyes. It's not like he is doing much better than Moyes.Your points achieved were wrong anyway.
League position says everything, we’re closer to top four this season than we were under Moyes.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire-signed.447781/post-24355857
In my first post I stated that there was a plan. I had a feeling and hope based on Ole’s Molde, his history at United and performances last season that his plan was a neo-Fergian team: fast, direct, unbreakable defense, young and fearless players.
Turned out I predicted many things right including Fred’s contribution in big matches. Not because I’m genius, because there was a common logic in every Ole’s action. Every preseason game I commented on tactics and set up. Things started to develop long ago. Now watching an analysis from Tim Sherwood who “sees identity”.
Then I realized that a lot of people here: 1) either are concerned only the with result, and/or 2) wildly affected by media, and/or 3) don’t control their emotions and/or 4) unfoundedly think they are smarter than others AND 5) native English speakers who can teach me a lot of words related to conditions of sorrow, misery, despising, envy, and impatience. So, I just kept silence and learned a lot of words related to gloating and shaming.
Hope to show off my new vocabulary when we get into top 4. Please God, save us from injuries.
Your point was that his was worse though which isn’t true.PPM is still the same with Moyes. It's not like he is doing much better than Moyes.
League position after 16 games says nothing. If we lose next match and our rivals win, we are back to bottom half.
By all means provide some quotes because havent seen anyone play the results down. The issue people have is that we do perform well in the big games and not the others.
Partially his fault.
New contracts for Rashford and Martial on par with highest earning forwards in the league, players who have led teams to title wins and challenges. Before they demonstrated they are at that level.
A massive new contract for De Gea. An excellent shot stopper who has shown his limitations. He does not command his area on crosses, shown once again at the weekend. He does not cover the space behind a high line as well as other goalkeepers.
It was Ole's fault that he continued with De Gea when he was in horrendous form during the run. It was undeniably a major factor in us losing out on champions league.
My actual point was facetious.
Crediting Ole for being "only" 5 points off 4th, just shows how successful the club have been in lowering expectations.
Is he though?
He's rewarded a lot of average players with new bumper deals, as well as signing players onto contracts way higher than their actual worth.
James aside his signings will also be a significant amount as well. Just because he sanctioned the loan of Snachez doesn't mean he's actively working to reduce the wage bill.
The poll is nonsense anyway. It's only the Ole out cult brigade crew that put any stock in it.I find it frightening how easily some people are swayed in a really definitive manner.
Since the City victory, the 'sack ole' tally has dropped by about 3%.
Do some of you really need just that smallest boost of positivity and feelgood factor (getting one over on City / Jose/both) to firmly change your minds about something? You must incredibly fairweather and undependable in everyday life.
You aren't formulating your own opinions, you're basically functioning on chemical impulses like an insect or something...…..or in other words, like The Hive Mind. GOOD RESULT - IN. BAD RESULT - OUT. GOOD RESULT - IN. BAD RESULT - OUT.
If you want him in, then stick to your guns the next time we lose to relegation fodder. Likewise, if you want him out, stick to your guns the next time he beats a top 4 team 2-1 with counter-attacking football.
There's nothing wrong with being swayed or convinced otherwise by something or someone. But it's worrying to do so so quickly and definitively. I will happily change my own vote to 'keep Ole' if he shows me signs of progress - IE - Beating smaller teams regularly and with confidence.
Never thought Ole should have been given the job permanently, but would love him to prove me wrong. Players are back. No more excuses. Let’s see how he does from now on. As plus an advantage that I think Ole has over other managers like Poch and Pep is that he can be pragmatic, but on a minus other then counter and then sit deep, I’ve seen no style of play that he can use week in week out against teams outside of the top 4.You do know we're considering the last 12 months, not the small sample size you are referring to. Over the other 32 games we have looked lost and clueless for large parts. That shouldn't be the case 12 months into the "plan".
Good post. Genuinely seems like you've been paying better attention to the games than a lot of the united supporters on here. You can usually tell the difference between the people who like football and those who just enjoy boasting when their team wins. We have plenty of the latter unfortunately.The reality is that the progress under Ole falls somewhere between the Ole in and the Ole out camps.
The coaching team is quite inexperienced McKenna and Carrick don't have a huge amount of experience between them and Ole is relatively short on experience too compared to other prem managers. As a result they will make mistakes, bringing on Tuanzebe against Sheff Utd as a holding midfielder was a good example of this.
But there has definitely been progression as well. The team play has certainly improved since the result against Norwich, bar Bournemouth. The wins against Spurs and City were tactically very astute. People complain that you can't do anything against lower teams that 'park the bus' but actually you scored 3 against Sheffield and 2 against Villa. Scoring isn't the problem it's keeping the goals out at the other end, but defensively especially against City you proved you can do that. Watching AWB against Sterling was a masterclass in tackling and defending, you genuinely have the best defensive full back in the league there and given his understanding of where to position himself, it's not unrealistic to see how his attacking game will grow quickly as well.
People say Ole, Carrick and McKenna can't coach, but look at Rashford, James, AWB, Fred, McT they are all developing brilliantly something is going very right there.
Your poor run was while Martial, Pogba and Shaw were out as well as Matic. We know that Pereira isn't a central midfielder and for a few games it left you without any link between the midfield and attack. Rashford (younger than Tammy A) shouldered all the attacking responsibility and unsurprisingly wilted under the pressure. Once Martial was back Rashford's stats rocketed and he is looking a class player at the moment. Once McT came back and replaced Pereira and Lingard came back in at 10 there was a link again between the lines of midfield and attack and you look so much better for it.
December will be an interesting month and if you can get Pogba back (what is going there?) you'll improve even more. Even in his darkest days Ole has never lost the players, he cleared out the disruptive element in the summer, yes it left you thin, but it left with a better more positive team spirit. No other manager since SAF has managed to keep the players on side like that. Give the man time is my opinion, something good is building at OT to the point where when Pogba does go, and he will, it wont decimate you as it would have done in previous seasons.
The reality is that the progress under Ole falls somewhere between the Ole in and the Ole out camps.
The coaching team is quite inexperienced McKenna and Carrick don't have a huge amount of experience between them and Ole is relatively short on experience too compared to other prem managers. As a result they will make mistakes, bringing on Tuanzebe against Sheff Utd as a holding midfielder was a good example of this.
But there has definitely been progression as well. The team play has certainly improved since the result against Norwich, bar Bournemouth. The wins against Spurs and City were tactically very astute. People complain that you can't do anything against lower teams that 'park the bus' but actually you scored 3 against Sheffield and 2 against Villa. Scoring isn't the problem it's keeping the goals out at the other end, but defensively especially against City you proved you can do that. Watching AWB against Sterling was a masterclass in tackling and defending, you genuinely have the best defensive full back in the league there and given his understanding of where to position himself, it's not unrealistic to see how his attacking game will grow quickly as well.
People say Ole, Carrick and McKenna can't coach, but look at Rashford, James, AWB, Fred, McT they are all developing brilliantly something is going very right there.
Your poor run was while Martial, Pogba and Shaw were out as well as Matic. We know that Pereira isn't a central midfielder and for a few games it left you without any link between the midfield and attack. Rashford (younger than Tammy A) shouldered all the attacking responsibility and unsurprisingly wilted under the pressure. Once Martial was back Rashford's stats rocketed and he is looking a class player at the moment. Once McT came back and replaced Pereira and Lingard came back in at 10 there was a link again between the lines of midfield and attack and you look so much better for it.
December will be an interesting month and if you can get Pogba back (what is going there?) you'll improve even more. Even in his darkest days Ole has never lost the players, he cleared out the disruptive element in the summer, yes it left you thin, but it left with a better more positive team spirit. No other manager since SAF has managed to keep the players on side like that. Give the man time is my opinion, something good is building at OT to the point where when Pogba does go, and he will, it wont decimate you as it would have done in previous seasons.
Partially his fault.
New contracts for Rashford and Martial on par with highest earning forwards in the league, players who have led teams to title wins and challenges. Before they demonstrated they are at that level.
A massive new contract for De Gea. An excellent shot stopper who has shown his limitations. He does not command his area on crosses, shown once again at the weekend. He does not cover the space behind a high line as well as other goalkeepers.
It was Ole's fault that he continued with De Gea when he was in horrendous form during the run. It was undeniably a major factor in us losing out on champions league.
My actual point was facetious.
Crediting Ole for being "only" 5 points off 4th, just shows how successful the club have been in lowering expectations.
Is he though?
He's rewarded a lot of average players with new bumper deals, as well as signing players onto contracts way higher than their actual worth.
James aside his signings will also be a significant amount as well. Just because he sanctioned the loan of Snachez doesn't mean he's actively working to reduce the wage bill.
I don't think "creating" will be a problem with Pogba - unless he's off-colour, which does tend to happen at times. The bigger question is how it affects the press and off-ball movement that Jesse adds. For all of Lingard's shortcomings with the ball, there is no question in my mind that he's among the best in our squad without the ball (in the opposition half). His pressing is relentless and movement is good. Pogba is (at times) the reverse. He is typically more languid and not the high-pressing #10. As such, he's far more suited to a 4-3-3 as an attacking midfielder starting from the left side. How this affects Rashford, I don't know but it will be a formation we've not played at all right from pre-season. It's going to be interesting - but I for one, hope that we get the fired-up version of Pogba in - who can terrorise defences and be the guy that turns our frustrating draws into dominant wins.This is a very good analysis of our issues with mid/lower table teams, and these themes are throughout this thread.
I would also say that Pogba isn’t really a classic 10, but better that Lingard and Mata. I wouldn’t be surprised if we had some problems creating with Pogba in certain games as well.
