Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[el3mel]

The whole premise of this 'poll' is keep v sack. IMO sack takes the exact same short-term approach to the running of the club that has us in the place we are.

The idea that sacking Ole will fix anything is naive. The problems at this club run much much deeper than Ole.

There is another thread on here titled 'appointing Ole was a mistake'. Thats the place to debate his ability or otherwise.

This thread is overtly about the idea of keeping or sacking - at this point in time.

If you choose sack, you are choosing the same short-term knee-jerk approach that Woodward has been at the heart of for 7 years.

So if you choose 'sack' you are backing Woodward.

No I'm not backing Woodward by wanting him sacked. I want him sacked because he's a terrible manager and not the right one to take this team forward, regardless of the board position. Ole needs to go, and that will inevitably happen, because the job is too big for him.

 

[ManRed]

I am surprised if you guys were expecting anything better than what we have been performing. We clearly have a terrible squad on paper and we're expecting average inconsistent players to become world class consistent players overnight.

Keep Ole or sack doesn't matter at this point. We have a clueless top management who doesn't know how a top club should be run and how to bring together a winning premier league team. So until that changes you can bring in whoever you want we are only going backwards.

 

[Ban]

Nice bit of googling there. It must have really meant something to you to post your latest moan to do that much googling.

Phelan cone maestro is definitely the best part.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

Nagelsmann paired up with Ed is a disaster waiting to happen. We need a DOF if we are to bring him.

We need a DOF regardless of who we bring next, we’re already a disaster happening.

 

[RedDevilRoshi]

We’ve hired and sacked managers before. What difference is this going to make doing it all over again? Are we instantly going to start challenging Liverpool & City for the title and be genuine real contenders to win the CL?

 

[Green_Red]

I agree with you, we have Pogba, McT, Lindelof and Maguire and we cannot do anything on set pieces.

If we are going to play Perreira on the right, we can't have Lingard in the middle he offers nothing. I would rather play Pogba there and Fred behind him.

McT is good and didnt pass forward because he doesnt trust Rashford, Lingard or Perreira to hold the ball and find another pass, how many times did the ball stick to Rashford? Did he attempt to beat a man when he had the chance?

Good point on McTominay and his passing. I think he has the passing ability but whats ahead of him is the issue.

Rashford tries but I feel like he is limiting himself. He continually tries to get in a safe position to then think through his decisions rather than acting on instinct and just going for it like he did when he burst onto the scene.

 

[Ban]

No I'm not backing Woodward by wanting him sacked. I want him sacked because he's a terrible manager and not the right one to take this team forward, regardless of the board position. Ole needs to go, and that will inevitably happen.

But guess what Ed hired him and Ed will hire the next one and next one..

 

[Bilbo]

A caretaker till the end of the season which is a write off either way, and meanwhile work behind the scene to sort out a permanent manager for the summer.
Someone with the right ideas, with a style or play, innovative tactically, someone who hasn’t peaked yet, something we haven’t tried before, someone who could hopefully turn us into a dominant and proactive side.

Are you actually suggesting that we rip up our current plan - the one we are so committed to that we've risked our whole season to (correctly) gut this squad of players - so that we can put in another caretaker while we figure out what to do next?

 

[Konimey]

The Board made a huge mistake by appointing Ole as a permanent before the season finished, and now we are stuck with him. If they had waited then those poor run of results at the end of the season might have prompted to appoint a new manager.

 

[Majima]

Tbf I think most of the fans are pretty aware that the cheap option was taken and results not being a serious priority (at least short term). A scarier thought is that the owners and management have trulybeen striving for football success alongside the commercial... let that sink in.

Personally though I am not a fan who is prepared to see performances collapse in order for there to be radical change. I dont want us anywhere near the relegation zone ever.

So I really dont feel I have much option apart from pray for Ole and the youth players (plus some lucky future signings) to give us a miracle. And that is what I am doing and they have my support 100%

I can see where you're coming from and I do admire your show of faith as it can't get much worse than this considering we're showing literal relegation form right now. I thought it was bad under Moyes & Mourinho at the end but this is even worse somehow. End of next month we definately could be near the relegation places for sure.

I can't help wondering that you have overlooked an option though. I know the board is incompetent, but you don't think that with over 80% of the season still to play, a change of manager along with competent coaching won't be enough to turn our season around?

That's the biggest reason why I want him out as soon as, he's showing absolutely nothing on the pitch along with the ghastly results to warrant me giving him unequivocal support.

 

[Ban]

Nagelsmann.

Fair enough. But do you honestly see Ed hiring him?

 

[Infra-red]

Fair enough. But do you honestly see Ed hiring him?

Him agreeing to join this mess is probably the bigger obstacle. He'd be mad to go anywhere near us - we're a managerial graveyard.

 

[Ban]

So people have suggested alternatives. Pretty sure there were other names like Allegri, Nagelsmann, and Blanc mentioned, too.

I also don't see how Howe isn't a "serious" suggestion when he is clearly a far better manager than the one we currently have.

Allardyce isn't a serious suggestion.
Blanc hasn't managed 3 years and Allegri would make fans cry cause apparently he plays boring football. Howe is a risk. Suggestions shouldn't just throwing names around, it should be realistic. Not that Howe is just a name to be thrown.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

Fair enough. But do you honestly see Ed hiring him?

Yes, why wouldn’t he?
He hired good managers before, and he tried for Klopp.

Are you actually suggesting that we rip up our current plan - the one we are so committed to that we've risked our whole season to (correctly) gut this squad of players - so that we can put in another caretaker while we figure out what to do next?

What plan is that? Gutting a squad of players without any results on the pitch is a terrible plan, top clubs don’t do that.

 

[devilish]

Nice bit of googling there. It must have really meant something to you to post your latest moan to do that much googling.

We are having a conversation among adults here shoo shoo

 

[el3mel]

But guess what Ed hired him and Ed will hire the next one and next one..

I don't get this notion you and the others are talking about. What's the relation of wanting Ole out and being Woodward out? Woodward is a disaster. That doesn't mean Ole should stay. Both need to get sacked and people learn to know you can be both Ole and Woodward out. Just because Woodward is a disaster we should stick with a terrible manager.

Will Ole getting sacked solve everything? No it won't, and no one has said that, but it's obvious he's sharing his part of the problem regarding how terrible the team is and that he's totally out of his depth. He needs to go because he's failing in job. Woodward needs to go too because he has been a disaster for 7 years. Both aren't mutually exclusive.

One question : in our dreams if Woodward gets sacked and Glazers left for better owners, will anyone trust Ole with rebuilding a good team who is well coached and plays good football? We all know the answers.

So there's nothing preventing a Woodward out fan to want Ole also out. Both need to be sacked asap.

 

[Dec9003]

Martyn Pert's experience spans with Bahrain, Vancouver white caps and Cardiff during Ole's glory days. Andrew Meredith started in Hockey then he moved into football in Australia only to land a job with mighty St Pauli. Micheal Clegg's only experience in coaching came under Roy Keane whilst at Sunderland. That was quite glorious isn't it. Ed Leng experience in football was at Melbourne Australia and Spurs academy. Charlie Owen was promoted from the U18s. This 'restructuring' is in line with that of Carrick (no coaching experience whatsoever), Mckenna (U18 experience with Spurs and us), Phelan (Sir Alex's cone maestro whom Ole picked while rotting with Central Coast Mariners) and of course Ole, the guy who had been disastrous in any permanent job he had as EPL permanent manager.

We're probably not shouting it from the rooftops because there's really nothing to shout about. No wonder the team stinks of inexperience and naive tactics.

Which alternatives would you have preferred?

 

[Bilbo]

At time of writing its 510 Keep versus 344 to sack now. Considering that this forum is presently heavily weighted towards the negative, does this poll prove anything apart from that the 'instant success now' crew post a lot more than the more patient supporters?

 

[romufc]

Good point on McTominay and his passing. I think he has the passing ability but whats ahead of him is the issue.

Rashford tries but I feel like he is limiting himself. He continually tries to get in a safe position to then think through his decisions rather than acting on instinct and just going for it like he did when he burst onto the scene.

I don't know what is wrong with him, but he doesn't look like himself. Either he needs to be taken out the firing line or moved over to the right side.

 

[Ban]

Yes, why wouldn’t he?
He hired good managers before, and he tried for Klopp.


What plan is that? Gutting a squad of players without any results on the pitch is a terrible plan, top clubs don’t do that.

I don't see it. And anyway any manager who has to work with him is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Ban]

Him agreeing to join this mess is probably the bigger obstacle. He'd be mad to go anywhere near us - we're a managerial graveyard.

Of course. That's the wide point many fail to realize.

 

[red woppit]

Reminds me of when Ferguson took over. His initial spell improved the team, he bought a few players during the summer, and finished second, then the following season United were poor, finishing mid table. The next season was when banners at OT (I think) wanted Ferguson out, and Emlyn Hughes came up with the OBE for Fergie quote (out by Easter), which he later apologised for.
Ole has not been here 12 months yet, and I would quite happily bet that the squad he took over was not as strong or as good as Fergie's was at that time. I, for one, will give Ole plenty of time to get the right players in, whilst getting rid of the players who are patently not good enough, or don't fit into the way Ole wants them to play (Matic, Pogba, Fred, Mata?), and promoting the academy lads (Garner, Gomes, Williams, Laird).

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

I don't see it. And anyway any manager who has to work with him is a recipe for disaster.

Is there anything we can do to get ED out of the club?
The Glazers seem to be satisfied with the financial side of things, until that changes I don’t see them bringing someone else’s in.
I don’t know what to say about the Woodward situation beyond that.

 

[Bilbo]

Yes, why wouldn’t he?
He hired good managers before, and he tried for Klopp.


What plan is that? Gutting a squad of players without any results on the pitch is a terrible plan, top clubs don’t do that.

If Barca or Madrid or Bayern or Juventus had spent as many seasons out of the Champions League, and wasted as much money on transfers as we have in recent years, then yes I can tell you that they absolutely would be looking at the club from the foundations upwards and most likely gutting the squad.

 

[Ban]

I don't get this notion you and the others are talking about. What's the relation of wanting Ole out and being Woodward out? Woodward is a disaster. That doesn't mean Ole should stay. Both need to get sacked and people learn to know you can be both Ole and Woodward out. Just because Woodward is a disaster we should stick with a terrible manager.

Will Ole getting sacked solve everything? No it won't, and no one has said that, but it's obvious he's sharing his part of the problem regarding how terrible the team is and that he's totally out of his depth. He needs to go because he's failing in job. Woodward needs to go too because he has been a disaster for 7 years. Both aren't mutually exclusive.

One question : in our dreams if Woodward gets sacked and Glazers left for better owners, will anyone trust Ole with rebuilding a good team who is well coached and plays good football? We all know the answers.

So there's nothing preventing a Woodward out fan to want Ole also out. Both need to be sacked asap.

Point is Ole will get the sack and Ed won't be held responsible for all the mistakes he's made. We'll go own to be a mess of a club after Ole's gone.

 

[dum propp victor]

If you want to give your manager time to rebuild his team and support him despite getting awful results, at least he should be a proven and competent manager to deserve this. That's the key point imo. A tactical work and a clear plan should be on the pitch with gradual improvement over time especially after months since the oppointment. You can not give manager time and hope it's gonna come good at some point with blind hope.

If we were getting these results but also see a playing style or clear plan on the pitch under a proven manager who did it before, like say City fans in 16-17 with Pep or Liverpool fans in 15-16 & 16-17 with Klopp, you could and should have supported him to some point to let him do his work. At least you'd have a case to do it. Yet we see no improvement on our game; if anything we're getting worse since PSG game. That's more than 6 months and including a window (in which we got the most priced RB & CB in the world) + a pre-season.

In our case, there is no light at the end of the tunnel as Ole doesn't have the tactical nous, experience or any kind of credentials to deserve more time. That's why we should cut our losses and move on with a different manager. Ole's appointment shouldn't have been made permanent in the first place. It's doomed to fail and the more we wait patiently the more time and money lost to bridge the gap with the top of the table. There's just no point when it's crystal clear it won't work. There is no guarantee that every manager who gets 6 years time will turn to Sir Alex. It's like Moyes all over again.

Get a competent manager like Allegri and support him because his managerial pedigree and his work not because he's an ex United player. I'd even be content with a choice like Blanc, Rudi Garcia or Koeman at this point.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

We’ve hired and sacked managers before. What difference is this going to make doing it all over again? Are we instantly going to start challenging Liverpool & City for the title and be genuine real contenders to win the CL?

Yes you’re right. Let’s just stick with a shite manager then & accept our place as mid table.

The state of this place.

 

[Bilbo]

Which alternatives would you have preferred?

He had never heard of any of those people an hour ago. Bit harsh asking him for alternatives......

 

[Ban]

Is there anything we can do to get ED out of the club?
The Glazers seem to be satisfied with the financial side of things, until that changes I don’t see them bringing someone else’s in.
I don’t know what to say about the Woodward situation beyond that.

My point is sacking Ole won't solve anything unfortunately.

 

[Ibrahimorich]

He's not toxic like Mourinho and I can't see who we'd get in who'd be better, so no point in sacking yet.

I would like to think he'll fall on his sword if we end up 10th or similar.

Perhaps he'd make a good DoF, so moving him upstairs might be an option.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Allardyce isn't a serious suggestion.
Blanc hasn't managed 3 years and Allegri would make fans cry cause apparently he plays boring football. Howe is a risk. Suggestions shouldn't just throwing names around, it should be realistic. Not that Howe is just a name to be thrown.

I didn't say Allardyce, I said Howe.

Howe is a risk worth taking, as I've said multiple times in here, and he's much less of a risk than Ole. I'm not "throwing" his name around, I said months and months ago he'd be one of my preferred choices as our next manager (before we hired Ole full time). There's a thread on here where numerous other posters have said the same.

Allegri doesn't play great football but I mean.. what the feck are we playing now? It can't get much worse. We've been shitter to watch this season than at any point under Jose and even LvG!

The point is that people have presented names, just because you don't think they're serious doesn't mean they aren't. Allardyce is obviously a piss take, though, unless we find ourselves needing to avoid relegation, and.. y'never know..

 

[el3mel]

Point is Ole will get the sack and Ed won't be held responsible for all the mistakes he's made. We'll go own to be a mess of a club after Ole's gone.

We will still be a mess up till Woodward leaves responsibility over football side of the club, no one disagrees with that, at all. However that doesn't mean we should stick with a manager who is so obviously won't be the right option for the club long term even if Woodward leaves. Both need to be sacked, and as I said, I doubt anyone think all our problems will be magically solved by him getting sacked. It's the point that as much as Woodward is shite in his job, Ole has also been terrible in his job.

 

[Majima]

At time of writing its 510 Keep versus 344 to sack now. Considering that this forum is presently heavily weighted towards the negative, does this poll prove anything apart from that the 'instant success now' crew post a lot more than the more patient supporters?

It proves that the poll results are distorted because the vast majority of people aren't voting correctly.

The vast majority of people who have voted keep have done so, not because they think Ole is doing a good job at all, it's because they are too scared to pull the trigger because they don't trust the board to hire the right person afterwards.

That's a backwards way of thinking. Not what the poll is for. Correct me if I'm wrong, It's to assess whether or not Utd fans think Ole based on the coaching, performances and results shown so far since his permanent appointment should be sacked or not.

No external factors involved, just purely what we have seen since the start of his permanent tenure. Is it good enough or not? Simple.

 

[MikeKing]

To see the response from the fans here, who lack a lot of perspective in my opinion, it is clear as day how Ole has sacrificed himself for the case of the club. People comparing him to Moyes is beyond laughable, they are just looking for some way to put it all into a neat little frame, available to reach for easy answers. The answers are bound to be negative by default, because the premiss is wrong, so while a lot of these opinions seems agenda driven nobody here really want Ole to fall.

Lets get down to it. Imagine we chose another path. A manager takes over from Mourinho, he keeps all the players inherited and want more players, he doesn't get all of his men and has to make due with what he has got, he then supposedly underperforms with his group and is out of reach of the title only a couple months in and gets the sack. The fans is split, majority think the manager was clueless, the other half think our players weren't good enough. Ed gives new contracts to Lukaku, Jones, Mata etc afraid of losing them for free, demanding his next manager to get more out of the poorly assembled squad.

I'm happy we didn't choose that very realistic path. The problem here is Ed, and the way we've been run and we all agree on it, so why can't we support the new project? Because of Ed? If so we're just allowing him to not take responsibility of his failure by shifting blame to Solskjaer. Shortsighted criticism of the manager's coaching, in-game management etc. is just that, it remains useless in a discussion about the bigger picture.

The thing to remember is, Ole has sacrificed himself. He has willingly gotten rid of people that could have taken the blame for much of the state we're in. Smalling, Lukaku, Sanchez, Fellaini. These are the scapegoats we could have blamed, we would have said they are good enough for top 4 but our club isn't supposed to settle for that, so why is he playing them in front of Rashford etc. Now we're saying, we'll its Ole's own fault for getting rid of these players, and our remaining players aren't good enough either.

He has made it so there is no excuses. Not for him, not for anyone. That has to count for something, in regards to his support. Everyone has to own up to their own responsibility, for good or worse. Even Ed is in the line of fire if we don't turn on Ole alone. The buck clearly don't stop with the manager in our case and it has been proven over the years, so wishful thinking is to believe that Ed is capable of replacing Ole with some magical Disney world type manager that would inherit these players and then succeed.

The criteria for even accepting going into a season with such a squad in the first place is the total backing to actually complete the rebuild, or else it is pointless. The only thing it would accomplish without that is giving Ed a year off from competing, so he can save money. I can't accept that. We have to get behind Ole and show we want a real change and if Ed can't give him that, he has to go. He shouldn't have the possibility of remaining in his job after letting Ole go. If he gets replaced, we should then consider to upgrade on Ole. By then he'll have played his part. I just hope Ole's sacrifice isn't for nothing and that our fans wont turn on him in search for easy answers.

With full backing from the fans, Ole could demand a lot more from his boss. In this scenario, I would expect us to see Ole demanding a full rebuild seeing how players have let him down this season should not have a part to play at all next season. Lingard, Rashford, Matic, Mata, Pogba there is a lot of players that have been given trust and not repaid him with performances. Criticise him all you want, but if we are to believe his words and I see no reason why we shouldn't, he wouldn't accept such mediocrity at the club.

In my view Ole should only go when he is the weakest link, and he isn't at this point. He has put himself right in the line of fire to help the club and it is sad to see a lot of fans jump on his back. We can use him to successfully help build a team beyond his level of management and when he reach that point he would probably walk out the door himself. If we don't back him, he'll have no actual power and will get marginalised by Ed to the point Ole is the one taking the blame for the mess Ed has put us in.

Perspective, folks.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

If Barca or Madrid or Bayern or Juventus had spent as many seasons out of the Champions League, and wasted as much money on transfers as we have in recent years, then yes I can tell you that they absolutely would be looking at the club from the foundations upwards and most likely gutting the squad.

If Bayern or Barca or Madrid had our last six years , the fans would be waiting with torches outside the training ground.

 

[Infra-red]

He's not toxic like Mourinho and I can't see who we'd get in who'd be better, so no point in sacking yet.

I would like to think he'll fall on his sword if we end up 10th or similar.

Perhaps he'd make a good DoF, so moving him upstairs might be an option.

This is basically where I am.

In the months ahead, his position might become untenable (if Manchester United end up involved in an actual relegation scrap, you better believe that managers and coaches will be fired left, right and centre).

However, I don't think that's going to happen - we'll most likely limp through and finish mid-table somewhere, at which point he may well fall on his sword as you suggest.

 

[Class of 63]

Martyn Pert's experience spans with Bahrain, Vancouver white caps and Cardiff during Ole's glory days. Andrew Meredith started in Hockey then he moved into football in Australia only to land a job with mighty St Pauli. Micheal Clegg's only experience in coaching came under Roy Keane whilst at Sunderland. That was quite glorious isn't it. Ed Leng experience in football was at Melbourne Australia and Spurs academy. Charlie Owen was promoted from the U18s. This 'restructuring' is in line with that of Carrick (no coaching experience whatsoever), Mckenna (U18 experience with Spurs and us), Phelan (Sir Alex's cone maestro whom Ole picked while rotting with Central Coast Mariners) and of course Ole, the guy who had been disastrous in any permanent job he had as EPL permanent manager.

We're probably not shouting it from the rooftops because there's really nothing to shout about. No wonder the team stinks of inexperience and naive tactics.

Making it common knowledge as apposed to boasting, but then you knew that was what I meant.

 

[Ban]

I didn't say Allardyce, I said Howe.

Howe is a risk worth taking, as I've said multiple times in here, and he's much less of a risk than Ole. I'm not "throwing" his name around, I said months and months ago he'd be one of my preferred choices as our next manager (before we hired Ole full time). There's a thread on here where numerous other posters have said the same.

Allegri doesn't play great football but I mean.. what the feck are we playing now? It can't get much worse. We've been shitter to watch this season than at any point under Jose and even LvG!

The point is that people have presented names, just because you don't think they're serious doesn't mean they aren't. Allardyce is obviously a piss take, though, unless we find ourselves needing to avoid relegation, and.. y'never know..

I didn't say you mentioned Allardyce and I explicitly said Howe isn't a name just thrown out there.
As for Allegri I meant what the mood here would probably be if we hired him. Hell one even said he wouldn't promote youth just at the thought of Allegri coming.
And Allardyce wasn't a pisstake.

 

[devilish]

Which alternatives would you have preferred?

Sir Alex took the job when football was completely different to what it is now. Football was way simpler at the time, the idea of DOF, sporting directors etc were non existent and the manager could easily manage almost everything by themselves. Through time United grew to the juggernaut it is now however Sir Alex had the time and the brilliance to grow with it. Thus he never really struggled with the increased complexity of the job because he was there from the start.

Modern managers aren't equipped to that. They are used to have DOF, Sporting directors and all sort of specialised people to help them. Also priorities are different these days. Sir Alex saw United as the place he want to work in until retirement and he had the ability to stay at United for a long long time. Modern managers consider a job a 3-4 year project at most. The temptation of hiring mates, former players who are loyal to them or friends of friends is far too high as they don't expect to last for enough time to reap the consequences of their actions. We've seen that multiple times with us being saddled with players like Bastian and Matic while those who brought them in were busy enjoying their last pay cheque.

I was hoping that Ole will be different. I believed that he had enough football IQ and love for the club to understand his Achilles heel (ie inexperience). Once that was acknowledged, he would have done his very best to surround with as much experience as possible, people who would help him and guide him in such complex job. I was wrong.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I didn't say you mentioned Allardyce and I explicitly said Howe isn't a name just thrown out there.
As for Allegri I meant what the mood here would probably be if we hired him. Hell one even said he wouldn't promote youth just at the thought of Allegri coming.
And Allardyce wasn't a pisstake.

Right, so Howe is an option, as is Allegri. There's two for you. Sorted.