Correct. It's an opinion, not an argument.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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Correct. It's an opinion, not an argument.
I think we have to take into consideration that the market values of average players nowadays are so high that its almost forcing us to wait for the targets we want. Even the ones we have signed have been at a premium. £50m for a young right back without a full cap. £80m for a centre-back (any centre-back) is just mental, but it has to be paid or we go without.
Any smart club now are looking at City & Liverpool and realising that they wont reach that level anytime soon without spending the guts of half a billion, so they are looking 2 to 3 years ahead for when those cycles are most likely to come to an end. I believe that is Woodwards plan.
- Get the wage bill where we need it to be
- Pay off the fees we have left over from LVG & Mourinhos signings (which I suspect is considerable)
- Plan for the spine of our squad to be approaching their peak years at the right time
If we figure this to be the direction that the club are going in, then a lot of the decisions made over the summer make a lot of sense.
But that of course doesn't mean that their good fortune with injuries wont last for much of the season - they could have another super-season. The last time that happened everything fell to pieces the season after- and that could happen again. Their players will start to attract more interest, they need a much bigger squad to cope with C.L - and they are not the underdogs anymore. Not to mention that Vardy is almost 33 - he wont be around for too much longer, and there is no way they can replace Vardy.
If you had to make a decision today you'd still get rid of Ole. One year coming up, and it's hard to spot any real trend... He's been responsible for maybe the worst football I've seen at United.
Still, he'll probably get the season and our results will hopefully keep improving. The team is looking better the last couple of weeks, so who knows. As long as it's entertaining.
Still, he'll probably get the season and our results will hopefully keep improving. The team is looking better the last couple of weeks, so who knows. As long as it's entertaining.
Fair enough. I understand where you coming from.
We wont attract the right players even with Champions League qualification if Ole is manager because:
A. He is xenophobic
B. He is not a top coach
C. He isn't assertive enough to demand it.
Now i know that all of his defenders will cry that Jose demanded it and got fired, so I will introduce something called context, as the addition of it usually destroys your dumb arguments like "SAF was given 4 years."
How? The point alone is true, but when i add the following pieces of information, your argument dies.
1.SAF remains to this day the last manager to win the Scottish League with a club from outside the Old Firm
2. His achievements with Aberdeen arguably outweigh what he did at United
3. He had to weed out a problematic culture that caused systemic rot
4. He is arguably the greatest manager of all time
5. He learned from foreign managers
6. He had better owners
7. He was assertive enough and had the personality to carry out the job.
Moreover, to those who will say that United has a problematic culture leading to systemic rot, I agree with you. But that culture and rot are something of which Ole is a part.
Additionally, this entire "give him time" narrative would be justified if Ole had the personality & assertiveness to demand the required changes. Unlike Mourinho and LVG, the media environment he faces is one of blind support while the same people wanted their heads on pikes practically from day 1.
Given that these people demand unconditional support of Ole, they should assist him by making sure he gets the tools needed. I've yet to hear any of them(Schmeichel, Scholes, Rio, Neville) advocate the removal of Woodward completely let alone name the Glazer family a problem. They've not suggested transfers to be bought in, number of players needed, DOF (Neville tbf has, but he flip flops).
Ole hasn't demanded either, in fact, he has lied about the Glazers investing money (not a penny of their own and only 14% of the club's revenue since 2013). Even when Gary Neville (whom i despise) tried to give him an out during their recent NKTV audition by talking about the structure. Ole said he's happy with the structure. This leaves 1 of 2 possible explanations:
A. He is
B. He's lying
Neither one is good. He has said repeatedly that money is there and that he chose to not replace Lukaku. Again, he is lying or being honest. Either way it means he's dishonest or deluded.
We need a manager who is willing to either utilise the influence of the co92 for positive or to cut the chord on their influence. We need an outsider and just because Jose and LVG didn't succeed in your eyes, I'd sooner have another big name who can handle the job than a yes man who puts his salary over the club.
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Well that's very harsh. He certainly hasn't been responsible for the worst football you've seen at United this season. There certainly IS a trend and as you say, bar the Bournemouth game, you've seen some very good football lately. Sacking him now would be vaguely mental. If it only takes 3 weeks to establish a crisis, then certainly 4 or 5 weeks of positive football/ results counts as an upward curve. I'm loving the youngsters and keen to see the effect Pogba has when he comes in. We have some sort of game plan of late, let's see where the next couple of months take us.
You are on crack .. Jesus Christ wouldn't have this United squad in the top 4 . If we keep our main 13 or so players fit then maybe we have a chance of top 4 but that isn't going to happen . Unless we buy well in January then we will finish top 6 at best and squad for squad that's probably where we are. This obsession for top 4 atm is bonkers . Let this team be re build have a little patience and see where we are this time next year
Thank the lord for someone with a shread of sense on here . Great post and I agree with everything you wrote
The absolute minimum requirement for any manager at United is top 4/qualify for CL by any means.
This dropping of standards and "let's see where we are in a year" is going to be detrimental to the long term prospects of the club.
We will start losing revenue from sponsors, we will struggle to attract to players, our name will only take us so far, so we'll have to potentially break wage structures to attract marquee signings.
We do not have the luxury of time. One more season outside the CL we lose millions and continue to highlight to new players we are now becoming a spent force.
The strategy of "smaller" clubs highlights how archaic our setup is. Using Leicester as an example they won the league and rather rest on their laurels they have invested in the future. They have an exciting young squad, with a progressive (albeit irritating) manager, they currently look good for top 4 spot with nothing from other clubs to suggest they could take their spot. They have not accepted the mediocrity we are currently accepting and have been ruthless with managers. Some may bemoan this lack of loyalty but they are reaping the fruits now.
We as a club and a fan base are far too sentimental. Exactly like Liverpool up until very recently. There's not a single supporter who doesn't want to see Solskjaer succeed, but this romantic idea of of giving him as much time as he needs is absurd. A few good results aside in the last month we have regressed overall in the last 12 months.
The thing is that i don't disagree with long-term planning. So, when people suggest that we should be looking at the bigger picture, i can see where they're coming from. Especially when you consider the kind of awful football we've been served in the last 6 years. But when your form regresses, you can't just wave it all away simply because a man who "gets the club" is at the helm. If a proven CV doesn't guarantee you success then an ex-player doesn't either. And over the last 10 months, we've witnessed a few glimpses of a plan in contrast to lots of bad results and performances.
As for our future targets, i believe we've been there and done that many times before. Mourinho argued that he needed to buy more players and he was laughed at. I don't believe that two more players will suddenly turn us into world beaters because there aren't such players available in the market. Firstly, you must turn your squad into a well functioning unit. When Liverpool decided to splash the cash for Virgil and Alisson, it was pretty obvious that Klopp had managed to turn them into a very good side that had two or three glaring weaknesses which prevented them from becoming an excellent team. That's when you talk about two or three additions. When you have created a side that can achieve top-four and reach domestic & European finals. When you look like a team that is close to realizing its potential. Not when you "dream" about said potential while the team is wallowing in mediocrity. Hopefully, this will change in the second half of the season. But when your signings are deemed as successes and you also get lauded for shipping players, yet you only manage 1/3 league wins, there's must be something you're not doing well.
And, as you wrote, it's no different from the player's perspective. If we had gone after either Virgil or Alisson, i believe we wouldn't have stood a chance of getting them. They both could see right where they would fit in this Liverpool side. I don't see why this would be any different with Sancho or whoever. City will be looking to revamp their squad, Chelsea will be active in the market too. It's not like we have a monopoly over the British/PL talent like we did for many years under Ferguson. And players like Rio, RvP or Berbatov, they came here to be coached by Ferguson, not because we sold them the "United way". There's a clip in our 93/94 season review in which Keane (new signing) said that he chose United because we looked like a team that will dominate in the near future. And Keane was the cream of the crop as far as young and British/Irish players were concerned back then.
Well, my argument really is that basic, mate.
I think Brendan Rodgers has proven throughout his managerial career to be a better football manager than Ole Gunnar Solksjaer. Therefore, I believe that Mr Rodgers would make our team better, being a better manager, whereas Ole would make Leicester worse, being a worse manager.
Their comparative performances in the Premier League back up this opinion, both at current and previous club.
I don't need to argue anything further with you than that.
So what is it that Rodgers would do different that would yield better results?
Implement a clear and progressive play style. Not the mythical plan that Ole talks about but tangible evidence on the pitch.
What is it, in your opinion, that males Solskjaer, a more inexperienced manager, a superior manager to the more experienced Rodger's? Saying that you can see a plan or answering questions posed to you with another question is not a proper answer.
Solskjaer, the Norwegian, is xenophobic in favour of British people (I'm guessing) is your logic?
Did you create a profile specifically to rant about the manager? Your username's gonna look a bit odd in a few years time mate.
It's a pretty tiresome argument to use injuries as an excuse to say results would have been better when it only took us two games to drop points at Wolves with a full starting 11, then the following week lose at home to Palace with a full starting 11. So in 3 games with our strongest first team to start the season we W1 D1 L1 so how does the relativity of the teams fitness massively impact results when our performances have been poor irrespective of who's fielded in the starting 11 ?
Rubbish excuses, the reason why Solskjaer is not a good enough manager is because a large majority of this season the football has been tumescent, we have been unable to create chances, the patterns of play has been non existent, no philosophy. Us being 10 points adrift the top four and previously swimming around relegation wasn't by chance or some deluded anomaly that a fully fit team guarantee results. In other weeks some of you swore blind that the squad isn't good enough, so why isit now those very same players are being defended due to being injured.
Rubbish excuses, the reason why Solskjaer is not a good enough manager is because a large majority of this season the football has been tumescent, we have been unable to create chances, the patterns of play has been non existent, no philosophy. Us being 10 points adrift the top four and previously swimming around relegation wasn't by chance or some deluded anomaly that a fully fit team guarantee results. In other weeks some of you swore blind that the squad isn't good enough, so why isit now those very same players are being defended due to being injured.
Unfortunately one decent result in the PL against a team we should always be beating and the Ole in crowd will tell everyone else to shut up and forget what's come before, or the fact that we've failed to put a single decent league run together since last season when he took over as caretaker. Why should others lower their standards, because others are desperate for him to succeed.
I think the Shieffled game will be the key. If we win I may start to open up and give him more time, because they are the kind of teams we flop hard against under him. Lose or draw, and whatever win we will get against the mighty Villa the week after, it will be pretty hard to convince me about any positivity under Ole. For the moment, let's see. It's good to at least have a comfortable international break.
Because rebuilding the squad is not a three months project. And because the alternative is to do the same as you have done for the last 6 years. No more quick fixes, everyone seemed to agree on that. But what happens the moment United start struggling. Yes, demand quick fixes.
I have came into terms Ole is unfortunately going nowhere so let's just hope we can finish in TOP half of the table at least. If Emery or Poch is sacked before Ole, well that would be hilarious.
Welcome to the club. Bright side Leicester might capitulate and we sneak into top 4. Poch is sacked.. we have Champs league football and a manager like Poch to go with it.
We are not getting into TOP 4
We are not getting into TOP 4
Which two teams are going to get in, if we take it that City and Liverpool are a given?
Chelsea are the strongest candidates for one of the spots but I wouldn't be convinced about anyone else. It's wide open at the moment as far as I can see.
Nobody is demanding anything other than some consistency after the club they support manager has been almost a year in the job and not suffer embarrassing losses to lower standard opposition, with a whimper. Rebuilding a team is just one part of the job and fair enough he's brought in some talent and gotten rid of some deadwood, but rebuilding at a club the size of united shouldn't equal the total mess we've endured at the back end of last season at most this this season. He's not rebuilding Newcastle United or Southampton, let's make that clear and I'm not going to drop my standards of what's expected, just because there's fans desperate for Ole to succeed at the expense of the club's standards.
First of all, I never stated that Solskjær is superior to Rodgers, neither do I necessarily think he is. Rodgers is obviously a good manager. Secondly, to ask people to elaborate on their claims is obviously not an answer, neither was it intended to be.
My view is that it is impossible to make the claim that Rodgers would have fared better than Solskjær at United at this point of the season, if you include some context.
* The clubs are in different phases of building a team. Leicester have a pretty established first eleven with both seniors and younger players, while United have 5-6 new first eleven players opposed to last year. New first teamers includes AWB, Maguire, Pereira, James, Martial, McTominay and possibly Fred and Williams. Neither Martial, McTominay and Fred was in Mourinhos preferred eleven.
* The senior (or old) players at Leicester are in fact integral to the team and leaders on the pitch (Vardy, Evans, Schmeihcel), while at United, that only applies to DDG (not a leader though).
* Leicester has had no injuries to key players, United has had Pogba, Martial and Shaw out for longer periods and a lot of players missing a game here and there. This is vital. Try looking up the injury list for teams that have won the league.
* The season is not over. What if Leicester collapse? What if United start winning? Why judge now and not until the season ends?
Now, to me there is an obvious plan. The way United played in the interrim period is the blueprint (based on his Molde team), and the last two matches have shown that the team are getting closer to it. The reason it has taken time to implement is also obvious: Restoring discipline and morale after the shitshow last season, a complete overhaul of playing style with subsequent mental, tactic and fitness training, and introducing a combination of young and new players into the first team.
Now, the question is: Would Rodgers solve this in a better way than Solskjær? I don't know, but as far as I know, at Swansea, Liverpool and Leicester he inherited good players and built on a foundation laid by others. At Celtic he took over a team that completely dominates the league. Even Ronny Deila managed to win the league there. He is obviously good at taking players to the next level, but I have no idea how he would fare doing a rebuild at the scale Solskjær is doing at United, which is what the club wanted from the manager. That does not mean he can't do it, but we don't really know.
I honestly don't know if Ole succeeds at United or wether Rodgers is a better manager or not compared to him. They both have won a shit league, but where they differ is that Rodgers consistently has taken jobs in clubs on an already upward trajectory, while Ole has managed Cardiff, Molde and United. All teams which were more or less in a crisis when he took over.
Unfortunately, this was my last post of today.
[edit: restructuring a sentence]
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It will be Chelsea and Leicester. Not necessarily because they are great but because everyone else is shite. We have no chance of making it by winning 1 game out of 3.
Rodgers would fail at United just like he failed at Liverpool.
Solskjaer might fail at United but we have improved under him and I expect that to continue.
Solskjaer might fail at United but we have improved under him and I expect that to continue.
We are not getting into TOP 4
Allow me to hope
. Otherwise I might aswell just start watching us next season.Rodgers will fail but Solskjaer want Like he did at Cardiff.
Oh and we have not improved we are midtable fodder.
I don't think Leicester will keep this up and we'll know by the City game if the upturn in United's form is a flash in the pain or genuine improvement.
I'd be more confident United can keep it going if Mc Tominay recovers quickly and we'll obviously need our front three to stay fit. I'm not willing to write off top 4 in mid-November.
But it has been shown that the interim period was an anomaly. Performances tend to improve when a new manager takes over and that's exactly what happened with United, with certain French players being even more keen to put in better performances due to their relationships with previous managers.
All Solskjaer has provided is lip services and swathes of supporters are lapping it up. As near as makes no difference has been in charge for 12 months now. We have no clear identity on the pitch and fitness is still an issue. There should be shoots of progression but apart from a few "good" results against poor teams there is nothing.
For your argument that Rodgers inherits good teams and has no record of building a squad, neither does Solskjaer. In fact Ole's career, first stint with Molde aside, is a relegation standard manager in England and a mid table manager in Norway.
Morale among players and supporters was so low last year that Solskjaer and the board have managed to convince a huge percentage of the fanbase that mediocrity is fine and is likely to continue for the foreseeable. This wouldn't have been accepted under SAF (evidenced by his 2004-06 transition where many thought he was past it) but now I regularly read that 10th would be an acceptable result come May, in no reality is United finishing that low ever acceptable.
We claim to be the biggest club in the world yet act like such amateurs from top to bottom its quite clearly not true.
To paraphrase Kevin Keegan, I would love it if Ole proved me wrong ,but all evidence suggests a manager well of his depth who, while saying the right things, seems unable to implement said vision onto the players. Ole clearly loves the club and manages in many ways like you'd expect a supporter to and it's this love for the club along with his legend status that seems to made him impervious to criticism by many.
You really think if Ole took over Leicester last January Leicester would be where they are now or even playing how they are?
Not being funny. Ole is in charge of one of the biggest club’s in the world and has managed to sell a dream of “in 3 years time, it’s all about the transfers”
Also anyone convinced by the win against Brighton is naive. While entertaining, it was a throwback to the 90s and exposes Ole’s limited style.
28. October
14. November
Although only one percent, it’s still interesting that more want to keep Ole now than 2 weeks ago.
The fickle one percent.
Or 225 new people voting in that timeframe.
Your right... strategic posting after a few good results. Same thing during Moyes time.
Is free weed getting handed out on Redcafe? too many deluded people who seem to have more experience playing video games than understanding the process of building a functional team (corrected).
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And the solution is sacking another manager. Jose was supposed to be the best manager in the world. LVG far up on the list as well.
I do understand the frustration, and the cry for uphold of standards, but the new project just started, and lately there are signs of improvements - also on the pitch. The change in strategy regarding player logistics with the focus on mentality, and the academy, is improvement already. You have a lot of young players been given the chance, and some are just starting to show their potential. He looks to have the full support from his players (minus Matic maybe) and last one out praising him in the media, is Fred giving credit to Ole for his recent raise in form. Fred says he´s never been happier at United.
I just don´t feel this is the right moment for sacking Ole.
The problem with most fan analysis is the lack of context within arguments.
A lot of people like to ignore the facts that we've been missing key players Pogba/Martial/Shaw for majority of the season with an already thin squad.
Where would Poch (remember him? the old flavour of the month) have Leicester? The same place he has Spurs?
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