Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Bobcat]

I think he will make it until end of the season now, little spells of good results will see him through. Top 4 is gone already and start was so bad if he finishes 6th it will somehow be seen as a positive.

You can be a fairly average team and finish 4th, am sure we will bring in 3 players over the summer so it’s not unrealistic that will be enough to improve us enough to get all in the top 4.

This club lacks ambition and has now set a low bar for what qualifies as acceptable. As long as the net spend is controlled, club makes money and gets in Champions League every other year I think the manager, CEO and owners will all be happy.

I don’t think anything special or disastrous is happening with Ed and Ole’s plan, the biggest change is expectations have lowered so much.

The league so far has been really strange. Everyone has taken points of each other, except the current top 4 who have been in incredibly good form. If Leichester and Chelsea could keep up this form they would end up on 82 points. That's league winning form in most other years

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Well said.

I can't go digging to find it but @TheRedDevil'sAdvocate that's one of the best posts I've read in this thread. Absolutely spot on summary of the concerns of those of us who are not Ole In.

 

[Roboc7]

The league so far has been really strange. Everyone has taken points of each other, except the current top 4 who have been in incredibly good form. If Leichester and Chelsea could keep up this form they would end up on 82 points. That's league winning form in most other years

And that’s the issue there is a top 4 with a big gap, it’s not a top 2 or one team with a huge gap. We’ve played Leicester and Chelsea and home beaten them both and are still 10 points behind them.

I expect Chelsea and Leicester will drop off but we’ve left ourselves a lot to do especially when we are so affected by an injury or two.

 

[bonothom]

Interesting and surprising (to me anyway).

Might be that we're winning games and if by only one goal, we get too negative, sit, invite teams to basically attack us (and we haven't got a good enough team/defence to do that for 20-30 minutes).

I do think if we get a second (2 goal lead), we're in a much better place as set for counter attacking.

I think what those stats show is if United don't get an early goal they get beat. They've had first half leads in all 4 drawn games and first half leads in all won games.The 4 defeats have seen them behind at half time in 3 and drawing in the other. They really are a poor team if they go behind. They don't have the capacity to come back even from a single goal.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I can't go digging to find it but @TheRedDevil'sAdvocate that's one of the best posts I've read in this thread. Absolutely spot on summary of the concerns of those of us who are not Ole In.

Thanks for the pat on the back. You too, @b82REZ .

Let's hope that things will improve and we will finish the season in a positive way. But yeah, i can't agree that winning 1/3 league games (our current form) and writing a whole season off in early November is acceptable for any United manager. Lenience towards a club legend is one thing, this kind of a free ride is another. As someone else wrote (believe it was actually you about a friend of yours or something like that), we wouldn't be having this heated debate if his name wasn't Ole Gunnar Solskjaer.

And as i keep repeating on the Caf lately, i hope the Ole-in crowd is right about him because he's not getting the sack anytime soon.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I don't get why the poll is 50/50.

The fans on here are so fickle wanting managers to come and go every year. They should at least let him have a full season then make an assessment.

So what if we finish 10th. Its the same as 5th or even 2nd in my opinion. We don't want to become Arsenal and Spurs and count top 4 as job done year in year out.

We build a squad over a couple of years to win a title if it doesn't work we move on.

This might be the most bizarre opinion I've seen in a while. CL football is imperative, particularly since we can't even consider ourselves in the same bracket as Spurs when it comes to top 4 consistency. We've been in and out pretty much every season since SAF. Regardless of my stance on Ole which is pretty negative, whoever is our manager needs to first get us back into top four contention for multiple reasons (many are financial but also from a club brand and player attraction standpoint it is vital) and then it's about approaching it the same way the Liverpool have done with Klopp. A smaller number of elite player signings that supplement an already strong team and will allow you to challenge.

 

[RedC]

We have to give him the best chance possible before throwing in the towel. The players all seem motivated and want to play for him, and we are seeing some signs of progress. Getting rid of him at any stage this season, barring us being in the relegation zone, isn't going to do any good.

Get behind him and hope for more of what we've been seeing the last few weeks, and expect that while games like Bournemouth are still going to happen, the more time the coaching staff have with the players, and possible new additions in January will hopefully put a stop to them.

We are in a much better state than Arsenal, for example, with their fractured camp and manager on the brink. Also remember some of the awful losses Liverpool had to teams like Bournemouth early in Klopp's tenure. Not everything can be changed instantly.

 

[Irwin99]

I'm seeing more grounds for optimism with United over the past few weeks as the attacking play has gone up a fair few gears but as i've said, I get the sense the last few teams we've played have gone back to underestimating us and are playing into our hands by letting us have a lot of space to counter and to make quick transitions. I'm waiting to see what we do against a team that counter attacks us and plays in a defensive block.

I still think Top 4, which was Ole's stated objective this season, would need a lot of luck with this squad. It'll be interesting to see when/if Arsenal or Spurs sack their managers if they then go and improve dramatically. I'm not sure about Arsenal but Spurs are playing way below their level. Chelsea and Leicester are obvious favourites but you never know, it's not impossible for them to have a dip in form.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

He did in Norway. Of course the PL is a different level, but you compete at the level of your surroundings. Even Klopp wouldn't be able to finish higher than first with Molde.

Ay Caramba...

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Thanks for the pat on the back. You too, @b82REZ .

Let's hope that things will improve and we will finish the season in a positive way. But yeah, i can't agree that winning 1/3 league games (our current form) and writing a whole season off in early November is acceptable for any United manager. Lenience towards a club legend is one thing, this kind of a free ride is another. As someone else wrote (believe it was actually you about a friend of yours or something like that), we wouldn't be having this heated debate if his name wasn't Ole Gunnar Solskjaer.

And as i keep repeating on the Caf lately, i hope the Ole-in crowd is right about him because he's not getting the sack anytime soon.

Another thing to bear I mind is that by lowering the standards, the board is giving the players a terrible impression of what it means to play for United. Make up the numbers, earn you 100k, don't score or assist for 12months, get injured every 6weeks - none of it matters, you will face no consequences.

This type of thing can be seriously toxic if it keeps seeping through the club - just as toxic as Jose's negativity.

 

[Greck]

The room for optimism is at least now somewhat understandable. I still don't think he'd good enough but he's buying himself time to show it.

From what I can see he wants to play really really direct football and he's also going to need to add extra layers to his playbook if we are to break down teams playing a low block and attacking requires a bit more than simply running end to end

 

[SteveW]

LVG and Mourinho both deserved the sack for consistently signing the wrong players. Their signings cemented our decline and left the next manager with a huge rebuilding job. You simply can't fix 7 years of horrible recruitment in one summer.

So far Ole has managed to remove some of the problem players and thankfully has managed to not add to our problems with any more bad signings. The 3 he's brought in have been some of our best players and should be excellent players for many years to come. Ole's patient and conscientious approach to signings is absolutely vital right now because we can't afford any more mistakes. This is the first step in our recovery.

 

[Mainoldo]

LVG and Mourinho both deserved the sack for consistently signing the wrong players. Their signings cemented our decline and left the next manager with a huge rebuilding job. You simply can't fix 7 years of horrible recruitment in one summer.

So far Ole has managed to remove some of the problem players and thankfully has managed to not add to our problems with any more bad signings. The 3 he's brought in have been some of our best players and should be excellent players for many years to come. Ole's patient and conscientious approach to signings is absolutely vital right now because we can't afford any more mistakes. This is the first step in our recovery.

So Pogba, Mhki, Bailly and Zlatan was crap signings?

Di Maria, Blind, Falcao, Herrera and Shaw was crap too?

It amazes me how fickle some people are.

 

[R'hllor]

Nonsense, double standards and cherry picking, so everything can fit. Dont get it, whats the point of that on a football forum.

 

[Foxbatt]

Lets see what happens in the nex few games. If we lose then yes. If we win all then he should get a chance.

 

[manunited1919]

Yeah, but they got there. Patience now.

20 years? Then don’t be saying next year.

 

[SteveW]

As crazy as it may seem to some, if our next 5 or 6 signings are as well chosen as our last 3 and a couple of of the kids develop well, we could be a real force again.

People really underestimate the importance of the transfer market. If you sign the wrong players you fail. People need to stop pretending theres some way of coaching shite into quality.

 

[Water Melon]

A player can get better or worse depending on coaching. Our squad is good enough to be in top 4. All the players we got rid of this summer were removed by Ole's instructions, and the newly recruited players were bought with his blessing too. Ole is yet to show that he is good enough to get us in top 4, yet alone make us title challengers. Based on his performance so far, he deserves sacking. If he does not improve, he will be sacked come end of the season.

 

[lysglimt]

So Pogba, Mhki, Bailly and Zlatan was crap signings?

Di Maria, Blind, Falcao, Herrera and Shaw was crap too?

It amazes me how fickle some people are.

The players aren't crap - but the majority of the players LvG and Mourinho turned into crap signings - yeah. There were a few exceptions, but in reality these 2 gentlemen wasted a few hundred million pounds each

 

[SteveW]

A player can get better or worse depending on coaching. Our squad is good enough to be in top 4. All the players we got rid of this summer were removed by Ole's instructions, and the newly recruited players were bought with his blessing too. Ole is yet to show that he is good enough to get us in top 4, yet alone make us title challengers. Based on his performance so far, he deserves sacking. If he does not improve, he will be sacked come end of the season.

Injury free yes. With the injuries we've had you're fecking kidding yourself.

 

[SteveW]

The players aren't crap - but the majority of the players LvG and Mourinho turned into crap signings - yeah. There were a few exceptions, but in reality these 2 gentlemen wasted a few hundred million pounds each

Some good players but all had the type of red flags Ole has avoided e.g. lazy, here for money, not suited to English football, mentally weak etc

 

[Bobcat]

Another thing to bear I mind is that by lowering the standards, the board is giving the players a terrible impression of what it means to play for United. Make up the numbers, earn you 100k, don't score or assist for 12months, get injured every 6weeks - none of it matters, you will face no consequences.

This type of thing can be seriously toxic if it keeps seeping through the club - just as toxic as Jose's negativity.

What Jose did was much worse, irregardless of league standing. Stuff like forcing players to play though pain by giving them shots, openly throwing players under the bus in the press. Its a reason his last three jobs have ended in the same manner. He does well, but his players cant handle that kind of leadership for longer periods and it all turns into a shitshow. After he got removed from the job here, morale was at an all time low and the ones who were not in open rebellion pretty much had given up it seems. By then finishing second the year before was completely meaningless. Regarding Jose though, his history with Chelsea and Real Madrid made me wary, but at the same time i hoped it would be different here.

Say if we finish 6th or something, that does not mean that "standards have been lowered" if the squad is happy, motivated and determined to do better. Klopp only managed 8th his first season with Liverpool and it was not like they rolled over and gave up.

Over the years we've had way to many players come and go, who on paper are decent players, but got here for the wrong reasons. Lukaku, Schweinsteiger, Sanchez, Di Maria for example were here either just for the money, or it turned out in the end they had rotten attitudes that affected the squad as a whole. Zlatan on the other hand, despite being old as feck was a great signing, because despite seeming arrogant, hes a consummate professional and seems to lift everyone around him

So Pogba, Mhki, Bailly and Zlatan was crap signings?

Di Maria, Blind, Falcao, Herrera and Shaw was crap too?

It amazes me how fickle some people are.

Miki, Baily, Di Maria and Falcao were definitely crap signings for various reasons. I loved having Zlatan here, but signing a 35 year old is not exactly forward thinking. I dont object to signing him at all, but getting a younger player as well might not have been a terrible idea. I find it difficult to criticize LvG for signing Shaw because there was no way he could know he would be that much of a sicknote

Blind and Herrera were great. I still cant fathom why Jose chose to get rid of Blind as he was the very definition of a good all-round squad player. Losing Herrera was catastophic and Woody should been publicly lashed at OT for fecking around with his contract

 

[lysglimt]

Miki, Baily, Di Maria and Falcao were definitely crap signings for various reasons. I loved having Zlatan here, but signing a 35 year old is not exactly forward thinking. I dont object to signing him at all, but getting a younger player as well might not have been a terrible idea. I find it difficult to criticize LvG for signing Shaw because there was no way he could know he would be that much of a sicknote

Blind and Herrera were great. I still cant fathom why Jose chose to get rid of Blind as he was the very definition of a good all-round squad player. Losing Herrera was catastophic and Woody should been publicly lashed at OT for fecking around with his contract[/QUOTE]

Well the fact is we don't know who is to blame for Herrera. Was it Mourinho who was opposed to offer him a new contract or Woodward who for some reason waited too long ? The fact is we don't know.

But Blind should never have been allowed to leave.

 

[midnightmare]

Well the fact is we don't know who is to blame for Herrera. Was it Mourinho who was opposed to offer him a new contract or Woodward who for some reason waited too long ? The fact is we don't know.

But Blind should never have been allowed to leave.

Haven't read about Mourinho not wanting to offer a new deal - but if he did, then surely Ed's delaying should be assumed (in large part) to be caused by the manager not wanting the player? Would be asinine to extend a deal for a player the manager is just not playing and deems as surplus to requirements!

On Blind, it's a bit weird. Jose didn't want pace (signed Matic FFS) and claimed to want a CB good on the ball...and then promptly sold Blind. It's not even like he was chasing aerial ability because then we'd not have signed Lindelof.

PS: I liked Blind, but I always felt he was too slow for the PL. His vision, intelligence and passing range though were well above all the other CBs on our rolls. For Jose's style though, it's not like speed was essential. No idea what went on there.

 

[Rood]

To be honest mate I get the impression that some people may have made up their mind and that's it, no matter what happens they will want him out ASAP.

Definitely the case for some - although I am sure many have changed their minds to a more reasonable 'wait and see' position in the last few weeks

I think if we did this poll today then the majority would be on 'keep' - its pretty much 50/50 as it is and Im sure most people wont bother changing their vote

 

[M Bison]

Definitely the case for some - although I am sure many have changed their minds to a more reasonable 'wait and see' position in the last few weeks

I think if we did this poll today then the majority would be on 'keep' - its pretty much 50/50 as it is and Im sure most people wont bother changing their vote

I tend to agree.

Didnt the official poll carried out recently on 10,000 fans, say over 70% of those polled were happy with Ole at the moment? That was after Bournemouth too so it could have skewed the results.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Definitely the case for some - although I am sure many have changed their minds to a more reasonable 'wait and see' position in the last few weeks

I think if we did this poll today then the majority would be on 'keep' - its pretty much 50/50 as it is and Im sure most people wont bother changing their vote

Yea I think you're right about wait and see. The results have picked up in the last month or so and with players coming back from injury too I can imagine more people might have adopted that stance.

 

[Withnail]

The league so far has been really strange. Everyone has taken points of each other, except the current top 4 who have been in incredibly good form. If Leichester and Chelsea could keep up this form they would end up on 82 points. That's league winning form in most other years

It has been strange so far and I'm not convinced Leicester will keep this up or that Top 4 is gone. It's still only mid-November.

All of the teams above us will drop points and apart from Chelsea I wouldn't be convinced any of the other teams are nailed on for a top 4 spot.

United's defence isn't giving up a lot of chances. If we can continue to build confidence and keep improving going forward, I think we can still be there or there abouts for top 4 come the end of the season.

Obviously, with the squad depth we can't afford to have anyone else out for an extended period of time and will need luck with injuries.

 

[Withnail]

So Pogba, Mhki, Bailly and Zlatan was crap signings?

Di Maria, Blind, Falcao, Herrera and Shaw was crap too?

It amazes me how fickle some people are.

Well depends what you mean by the wrong signings and how many of them would you really call a success.

My question would be where are they now?

 

[Andycoleno9]

So Pogba, Mhki, Bailly and Zlatan was crap signings?

Di Maria, Blind, Falcao, Herrera and Shaw was crap too?

It amazes me how fickle some people are.

Everything what LVG and Jose did is shit. You didn't get the memo?
But if they had shit squad and signed shit players, how they won trophies? It is a mystery

 

[Rood]

I tend to agree.

Didnt the official poll carried out recently on 10,000 fans, say over 70% of those polled were happy with Ole at the moment? That was after Bournemouth too so it could have skewed the results.

not seen that poll - link?

 

[sglowrider]

A player can get better or worse depending on coaching. Our squad is good enough to be in top 4. All the players we got rid of this summer were removed by Ole's instructions, and the newly recruited players were bought with his blessing too. Ole is yet to show that he is good enough to get us in top 4, yet alone make us title challengers. Based on his performance so far, he deserves sacking. If he does not improve, he will be sacked come end of the season.

Seriously? This is RAWK-like delusion. How many of our starting 11 or squad members will get in the Top 4?

2-3? Maybe? If so, how will that make us ''good enough to get us in top 4, yet alone make us title challengers''? Ask any current Top 4 fans here who they would take from our starting 11 or from the squad?
Or reversely, if you could pick a Top 4 player for every position in the starting 11 (versus what we have currently) and lets see how many will be United players.

Time to grow a brain.

 

[Bilbo]

8 or 9 of our starting XI is good enough for top 4 and potentially a very exciting team. If Pogba can succeed (and I see no reason that he cannot if he wants it) in an advanced position ahead of a midfield two, then we can actually put a strong 433 team out there that IMO are a team with great potential.

The problem is, and it shouldn't be news to anybody, that we have stripped the squad down in order to prepare for the essential rebuild. There were a handful of players that we couldn't afford to miss because we don't have strong options outside of that, and its quite unfortunate that we went and lost two of them (Martial & Pogba) for a decent portion of this season so far. Martial comes back in and (shock!) we look much better instantly. Pogba could raise it up again.

Fact is that when you find yourself having to rely on the likes of Lingard and Perreira you are going to struggle to score goals and get results - it doesn't matter who is in charge. If we can bolster our options in January and next summer we should be a more consistent team. I don't think anybody can complain about our form when we have had most of our best players available to us.

 

[Shark]

Despite the slight uplift in optimism, it'd be downright daft to change my opinion considering our current league form and unless our situation drastically improves, as in less false dawns and more genuine consistency, I still think he should be judged like any manager would and be sacked if we're in between bottom half, to occasional mid table form. That's not good enough at this club and I'm sticking to my guns.

If he's building something special, well then show it and get us back into a CL place at the minimum.

 

[Shark]

Seriously? This is RAWK-like delusion. How many of our starting 11 or squad members will get in the Top 4?

2-3? Maybe? If so, how will that make us ''good enough to get us in top 4, yet alone make us title challengers''? Ask any current Top 4 fans here who they would take from our starting 11 or from the squad?
Or reversely, if you could pick a Top 4 player for every position in the starting 11 (versus what we have currently) and lets see how many will be United players.

Time to grow a brain.

Since when exactly do you need more than two-three top class players to stake a claim at top four?

 

[midnightmare]

8 or 9 of our starting XI is good enough for top 4 and potentially a very exciting team. If Pogba can succeed (and I see no reason that he cannot if he wants it) in an advanced position ahead of a midfield two, then we can actually put a strong 433 team out there that IMO are a team with great potential.

The problem is, and it shouldn't be news to anybody, that we have stripped the squad down in order to prepare for the essential rebuild. There were a handful of players that we couldn't afford to miss because we don't have strong options outside of that, and its quite unfortunate that we went and lost two of them (Martial & Pogba) for a decent portion of this season so far. Martial comes back in and (shock!) we look much better instantly. Pogba could raise it up again.

Fact is that when you find yourself having to rely on the likes of Lingard and Perreira you are going to struggle to score goals and get results - it doesn't matter who is in charge. If we can bolster our options in January and next summer we should be a more consistent team. I don't think anybody can complain about our form when we have had most of our best players available to us.

Most are saying this in light of the "5 wins in 6" stat - conveniently ignoring league form - where we are yet to log back-to-back wins and have a WDL or 4-4-4. We're struggling where (and when) it matters most. Frankly, if you ignore the playing styles, this is reminiscent of LvG; we manage to play the big teams well, but just can't seem to penetrate those that defend deep in a compact and organized manner.

Until Ole can consistently swat aside the lesser lights, we have no chance of threatening the top 4. If you feel 8/9 of our players are good enough for top 4, well, we should be beating the bottom teams easily, with the right tactics. That we are not indicates that either our players are not as good as you think - or that the coaching and / or tactics are not good enough. This is where most of us feel that even if not Top 4 quality, there is at least enough quality in our squad to not be losing to relegation-threatened teams each time we face them, indicating that the management / coaching is indeed an issue.

 

[lysglimt]

Most are saying this in light of the "5 wins in 6" stat - conveniently ignoring league form - where we are yet to log back-to-back wins and have a WDL or 4-4-4. We're struggling where (and when) it matters most. Frankly, if you ignore the playing styles, this is reminiscent of LvG; we manage to play the big teams well, but just can't seem to penetrate those that defend deep in a compact and organized manner.

Until Ole can consistently swat aside the lesser lights, we have no chance of threatening the top 4. If you feel 8/9 of our players are good enough for top 4, well, we should be beating the bottom teams easily, with the right tactics. That we are not indicates that either our players are not as good as you think - or that the coaching and / or tactics are not good enough. This is where most of us feel that even if not Top 4 quality, there is at least enough quality in our squad to not be losing to relegation-threatened teams each time we face them, indicating that the management / coaching is indeed an issue.

Our main problem right is now

a) thin squad
b) injuries
c) many matches
d) combination of thin squad and injuries creating fatigue and more injuries because we can't rest enough players

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

The main idea what the club is doing is to make progress & build a team for long term future success. How? Developing Martial & Rashford to be our future main star players.

I am sure the club is aware that not signing proven players like what we did in the past (Zlatan, Sanchez & Lukaku caliber for example) but relying on young & less proven players like Martial, Rashford, Greenwood & James means we are taking risk for our CL spot due to up and down form from them. But it's part of a plan that I can see it as positive for the future of the club. Even without CL spot, we will still be able to keep all our XI players except Pogba. Without CL spot, we might not be able to attract mega signing but imo there are many very good & talented players available out there that we can sign, wants to play for us and suit our system to improve us massively. Daniel James is one of the example.

I like the idea that Ole is going to for our squad focusing on developing the talented players, careful in signing players, trying to improve the players in the squad & we are actually playing counter press football with pace up front similar to Klopp, although against better opposition we sit deep since we lack quality in midfield. The result hasn't been good due to injuries on our main players. However, I believe we are starting to go in the right direction compared to the era of Mourinho or LVG.

Top 4? I think we will get it as long as majority our main players can stay fit (Maguire, Martial, Pogba, Rashford, James). Not getting top 4? Well I have no issue with it as well if we can have some positive if it means players like Martial, Rashford James, McTomminay & others are getting benefit for their development to be much much better players for the next following season.

 

[midnightmare]

Our main problem right is now

a) thin squad
b) injuries
c) many matches
d) combination of thin squad and injuries creating fatigue and more injuries because we can't rest enough players

That's a lot of problems for a "main problem". While these are issues, here's a counterpoint:

Most of the time, it's how the team combines and plays to its strengths that determines how it goes. Look at Liverpool and ask how many of their players any of us thought as world-beaters a couple of years ago. How many were we bemoaning missing out on? How many look top drawer outside of the Liverpool team? Hurts to say this about them and their manager, but its only when playing in that team together that they look almost irresistible at times. Henderson, Milner, Wijnaldum, Fabinho, Gomez... nothing much to get truly excited about, is there? Yet, here they are with what, 2 points dropped all season? One league defeat in the last year or something like that? (CBA checking).

Even with our best 11 playing, the issue has often been the combinations (what some call "patterns") we make. We often look disjointed against a team that doesn't allow us to run fast and direct at them on a counter with space to exploit. We rely in such games, upon individual brilliance or blunders by the opposition. That's coaching. Fair play to Ole if he can actually turn it around, but it's been a while now and I see no sign of him suddenly nailing this. Time will tell of course, but I don't think we should be advocating spending 2 years allowing him to experiment while learning.

 

[Mainoldo]

Well depends what you mean by the wrong signings and how many of them would you really call a success.

My question would be where are they now?

I think you’ll find players leave here these days and go on to better things ‘performance wise’ so I wouldn’t use that as a yard stick.

I just have an issue with this crap signing talk when no one had that same energy when we brought them. They didn’t fail because of not being ‘United type’ signings. They failed because of personal issues half the time not quality related.

For example.

Di Maria just didn’t settle (it happens)

Memphis - we got good money for him

Falcao had a huge injury and has never been the same again. But did have a good 2 year stink at Monaco where he destroyed City in a two league qualifier. Bailly has been injury prone continuously.

Shaw same as Falcao.

Blind - doesn’t really need explaining.

I could go on.