Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[roonster09]

Yes thats why taking statistics from only one game is not a great idea to judge a manager is it?

But it's not 1 game, that's the profile of the team. We have reduced the age of the squad in most positions.

Also comparison with Lampard is completely pointless as he is playing most of the youngsters who have played good number of games in professional league, whereas our youngsters like Greenwood, Williams have barely played in any professional league. This is their first proper league season.

Chelsea youngsters are more experienced (played more number of games) than players like McT, James, AWB who have played around 30-40 games before this season. Most of the Chelsea youngsters played over 100-130 games before this season.

Apart from all this, promoting from academy is not the only way to focus on young players, we have reduced overall age of the squad and in most positions.

26 year old Lukaku is replaced by 23 year old Martial
21 year old Rashford replaced 30 year old Sanchez
21 year old James replaced 30 year old Mata/Lingard
22 year old McTominay replaced 30 year old Matic
21 year old AWB replaced 33/34 year old Young

Then promoted players like Greenwood who just turned 18, and he replaced Martial/Rashford on the bench.

Average age of the team is significantly lower than last season. If we go by our strongest team,

De Gea - 29

AWB - 21
Lindelof - 25
Maguire - 26
Shaw - 24

Pogba - 26
McTominay - 22

James - 21
Pereira - 23
Rashford - 22

Martial - 23

That's average age of 23.8 years, which is very young. So it's not just 1 game thing, our first 11 is young in both age and experience.

 

[ReddBalls]

Feck me. People to try to make a point out of Ole NOT playing youth. Do they expect him to replace the first team with the U18s? Players at 21, 22, 23 are young and learning. One would almost be tempted to assume that some posters have an age perspective where everyone older than 20 is fully grown up.

 

[Rood]

Its been reported on twitter, but its being exagerated here to make it look as if Ole is constantly promoting youth. Yesterday the starting XI average age was 23 years 350 days, its the youngest starting XI since May 2017 when we averaged more than a year less with 22 years and 284 days, guess who was the manager on May 2017? Exactly Mourinho but of course nobody would dare to claim that Mourinho was a youngster promoter, but here since many people want to defend Ole and hes not giving much then people hold on to this kind of statistics.

Here's the tweet by the way:

Ye but that was when Jose played the youth team to rest everyone for the Europa League Final - so he gets zero credit for that

 

[SAFMUTD]

But it's not 1 game, that's the profile of the team. We have reduced the age of the squad in most positions.

Also comparison with Lampard is completely pointless as he is playing most of the youngsters who have played good number of games in professional league, whereas our youngsters like Greenwood, Williams have barely played in any professional league. This is their first proper league season.

Chelsea youngsters are more experienced (played more number of games) than players like McT, James, AWB who have played around 30-40 games before this season. Most of the Chelsea youngsters played over 100-130 games before this season.

Apart from all this, promoting from academy is not the only way to focus on young players, we have reduced overall age of the squad and in most positions.

26 year old Lukaku is replaced by 23 year old Martial
21 year old Rashford replaced 30 year old Sanchez
21 year old James replaced 30 year old Mata/Lingard
22 year old McTominay replaced 30 year old Matic
21 year old AWB replaced 33/34 year old Young

Then promoted players like Greenwood who just turned 18, and he replaced Martial/Rashford on the bench.

Average age of the team is significantly lower than last season. If we go by our strongest team,

De Gea - 29

AWB - 21
Lindelof - 25
Maguire - 26
Shaw - 24

Pogba - 26
McTominay - 22

James - 21
Pereira - 23
Rashford - 22

Martial - 23

That's average age of 23.8 years, which is very young. So it's not just 1 game thing, our first 11 is young in both age and experience.

Rashford didnt really replaced Alexis, he wasn’t playing much under Jose either, the same with McTominay if anything is more merit to Jose than Ole since he trust him when most people, including myself, tought he didn’t had it in him, and talking about Martial as a youngster I dont think it exacly fits. AWB is a top prospect I don’t think we should give credit to Ole for “trusting him” he is a 50 million proven player any manager would play him. With James I completely agree Ole has put his trust in him and I think it has played off.

Bottom line I think it depends on the perspective, when I think on a manager that develops youngsters I imagine a manager that promotes youth that are 18-19 years old from the academy and starts them in the initial XI, something like Erik Ten Hag with Ajax, for me using youngsters to fill the bench and fill some gaps with bought players is about a regular manager, not an antiyoungsters but nothing special just a regular manager.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Ye but that was when Jose played the youth team to rest everyone for the Europa League Final - so he gets zero credit for that

Yes, like I said in a post before judging a manager for a one game statistic is not the best of the ideas.

But lets look at the whole picture, Ole replaced a 33-34 year old Young with AWB whos 20-21, replaced Mata 32 with James 22 and Smalling 28 with Maguire 26. The main difference was playing Williams in that game, appart from him no one was really a youngster. The fact that he replaced old players with younger ones doesnt means he is playing youth.

Full credit to Ole for playing and trusting James that is turning out way better than spected, but thats about it and not to mention but he’s a bought player not an academy one so you’ll expect that someone bought even as a youngster should be capable of competing for a starting spot.

Besides James he isn’t really trusting any youngster, sure Greenwood and Williams get some minutes here and there but all the clubs give some of their youngsters minutes dont they? I dont think its a special factor about Ole or anything worth mentioning.

 

[Tarrou]

Feck me. People to try to make a point out of Ole NOT playing youth. Do they expect him to replace the first team with the U18s? Players at 21, 22, 23 are young and learning. One would almost be tempted to assume that some posters have an age perspective where everyone older than 20 is fully grown up.

I find it remarkable too. Ole's giving them all chances, and the older players are slowly becoming less and less prominent in the first team.

The commitment to youth started in the summer window, by the end of it we were in a situation where we'd basically have to play them. Similar to when Fergie shipped out some established stars to make way for Becks, Scholes et al.

McTominay was effectively awarded first eleven status by the fact we didn't bring in a midfielder (though people are acting like him being first choice was a given, now that its worked out). Greenwood was always going to get chances as the 3rd choice striker and 2nd/3rd choice right winger. Williams was likely to get a chance as the 3rd choice full-back (when everyone was calling for us to sign a back-up/competition for Shaw).

 

[roonster09]

Rashford didnt really replaced Alexis, he wasn’t playing much under Jose either, the same with McTominay if anything is more merit to Jose than Ole since he trust him when most people, including myself, tought he didn’t had it in him, and talking about Martial as a youngster I dont think it exacly fits. AWB is a top prospect I don’t think we should give credit to Ole for “trusting him” he is a 50 million proven player any manager would play him. With James I completely agree Ole has put his trust in him and I think it has played off.

Bottom line I think it depends on the perspective, when I think on a manager that develops youngsters I imagine a manager that promotes youth that are 18-19 years old from the academy and starts them in the initial XI, something like Erik Ten Hag with Ajax, for me using youngsters to fill the bench and fill some gaps with bought players is about a regular manager, not an antiyoungsters but nothing special just a regular manager.

Sanchez played in every game except 2 in 2017-18 in all competitions. In 2018-19, he started as first choice player, with Martial winning the place and then Sanchez was injured after 13 games. Up to that point, Sanchez and Rashford both started 5 league games. Now there isn't any rotations, Rashford is the first choice LW without any doubt.So Rashford replaced Sanchez.

Not sure what you meant by same with McTominay. He started just 3 games in 2018-19 and we played 24 games under Jose in that season. He wasn't even a properly rotated player under Jose, even though he rated him. It was under Ole he came first choice player, replacing Matic.

I didn't say Martial is a youngster, I said younger players replaced older players and Martial is 3 years younger than Lukaku.

AWB is a top class player, again the point was never about just promoting young players from academy. It was about trusting young players and AWB fits the profile.

Overall we have replaced older players with younger ones is most positions and then made space for academy players on the bench, which is part of the development. They are playing few mins in league and starting cup games.

It's fine, everyone views differently when it comes to most footballing topics, more so on the 'develop youngsters'. What I don't understand is, you said developing youngsters means promoting 18-19 year old players and then said 'if he would had incorporated more youngsters as Lampard has then I would agree'

This season Lampard has played (in league)
Tammy - 22 year old, older than Rashford - 150 goals before this season and was in team of the championship.
Pulisic - 21 year old, signed for more money than AWB and played 127 games, US national team regular and their best player.
Mount - 20 year old - 83 games before this season. He was in Dutch league team of the year in 2017-18 season
Tomori - 21 - 108 games before this season.
Odoi - 19
James - 19 - 46 games before this season.

Only Odoi and James fits the criteria. Also everyone of these players were either best players for their clubs (when on loan) or ended up in team of the season. They are far ahead of our youngsters like Greenwood, Williams, Gomes, Garner.

 

[Rood]

Yes, like I said in a post before judging a manager for a one game statistic is not the best of the ideas.

But lets look at the whole picture, Ole replaced a 33-34 year old Young with AWB whos 20-21, replaced Mata 32 with James 22 and Smalling 28 with Maguire 26. The main difference was playing Williams in that game, appart from him no one was really a youngster. The fact that he replaced old players with younger ones doesnt means he is playing youth.

Full credit to Ole for playing and trusting James that is turning out way better than spected, but thats about it and not to mention but he’s a bought player not an academy one so you’ll expect that someone bought even as a youngster should be capable of competing for a starting spot.

Besides James he isn’t really trusting any youngster, sure Greenwood and Williams get some minutes here and there but all the clubs give some of their youngsters minutes dont they? I dont think its a special factor about Ole or anything worth mentioning.

Sorry but this is total bollocks - its not based on 1 game, it's the whole season so far. the stats are posted above showing we have half of the top 10 youngest line ups in the PL this season

And no Jose certainly wasn't giving minutes to the likes of Greenwood and Williams. Plus Tuanzebe, Ching, Garner and Gomes

You also fail to mention how McTominay is now an integral part of the team plus Pereira is playing regularly. Even Rashford and Martial were not automatic starters before Ole

I actually think we might have had even younger average line ups if it hadn't been for injuries

 

[Foxbatt]

Forget about the age. It is the ability. If you are good enough to play then you are good enough to play. Yes if we beat Sheffield United convincingly then maybe. But I do not feel he has the ability to compete with Klopp and Pep. That has to be the target for us to win the PL.

 

[sglowrider]

Theoritical knowledge is different from practical knowledge(implementation).

Ole knows how to articulate the right things but problem is that he doesn't know how to make it translate to actual results which makes us sticking to him nothing but an exercise in 'faith' like you claimed. That's all we've got. His managerial history leaves so much to be desired and I am highly skpetical he is the right man for a club of our size!

Give it a rest with this same old tired argument. Just because you cant join the dotted lines you have to bring up the managerial history argument? Our last three managers (incl Moyesy) were probably some of the most experienced managers in the world. Where did that get us?

A re-build/change management of any company or the startup of any organisation will also have its hiccups, or in startup parlance, its a hockey curve.

You cant always go comparing it to the past -- people forget that it was never a straight line to any successful regime incl Fergie's. He was one of the most successful managers ever. Its pointless to try and compare -- we may never hit those heights again. (And Fergie's genius wasnt that he was just successful but the fact that he built four generations of them in the same club -- thats what sets him apart.)

Its only people who can't see beyond reactionary or short term perspective ie week to week that are unable to see the grand scheme or big-picture plan that Ole is trying to implement. (And I have written about this in the past)

Yes, Ole may fail to translate the theoretical aspects aka the rebuild plan -- but it's not to be judged on a week to week basis. And not certainly now, with only one transfer window -- even though if you are to judge him his transfers, they have all had immediate impacts. That's a good sign as he sees and knows what he wants to fix and all three have dovetailed in perfectly.

But if you are to 'judge' it, you ought to plot a line of the scattered dots in the chart and you will see there is some upward trajectory at the moment. Whether it will get us back to the top, its too early to tell.

As they say, its not the destination. Its the journey.

 

[Will Singh]

Hang on, if the clubs requirement is top 4 then Ole has no chance. We are 9 points adrift and United need to go on a 6 or 7 match winning run to just get back into contention. That's not going to happen. We haven't had back to back Premier league wins since last season.

The club must have set him targets he has to meet and I hope as a minimum it is top 4 otherwise we really have dropped our levels...

 

[lRed]

It's crazy to think of how many points are positive signs for OGS to stay.
No it's not perfect and we are not living in a pink World.
Yes we are improving and we are heading in the right direction.

People need to realize he'll be there for only 1year next month.
I wish I had the willing for making a post point per point to keep faith in our rebuilding but I'll keep it for another time.
Meanwhile, I hope we keep this form up and gains all this confidence during the season, to get back in the top 4 race, other teams will lose points too.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Sanchez played in every game except 2 in 2017-18 in all competitions. In 2018-19, he started as first choice player, with Martial winning the place and then Sanchez was injured after 13 games. Up to that point, Sanchez and Rashford both started 5 league games. Now there isn't any rotations, Rashford is the first choice LW without any doubt.So Rashford replaced Sanchez.

Not sure what you meant by same with McTominay. He started just 3 games in 2018-19 and we played 24 games under Jose in that season. He wasn't even a properly rotated player under Jose, even though he rated him. It was under Ole he came first choice player, replacing Matic.

I didn't say Martial is a youngster, I said younger players replaced older players and Martial is 3 years younger than Lukaku.

AWB is a top class player, again the point was never about just promoting young players from academy. It was about trusting young players and AWB fits the profile.

Overall we have replaced older players with younger ones is most positions and then made space for academy players on the bench, which is part of the development. They are playing few mins in league and starting cup games.

It's fine, everyone views differently when it comes to most footballing topics, more so on the 'develop youngsters'. What I don't understand is, you said developing youngsters means promoting 18-19 year old players and then said 'if he would had incorporated more youngsters as Lampard has then I would agree'

This season Lampard has played (in league)
Tammy - 22 year old, older than Rashford - 150 goals before this season and was in team of the championship.
Pulisic - 21 year old, signed for more money than AWB and played 127 games, US national team regular and their best player.
Mount - 20 year old - 83 games before this season. He was in Dutch league team of the year in 2017-18 season
Tomori - 21 - 108 games before this season.
Odoi - 19
James - 19 - 46 games before this season.

Only Odoi and James fits the criteria. Also everyone of these players were either best players for their clubs (when on loan) or ended up in team of the season. They are far ahead of our youngsters like Greenwood, Williams, Gomes, Garner.

I thought Tammy and Mount were younger, but my point is Lampard incorporated young players that were nowhere near the first team before he arrived, of course he is forced by the fact that Chelsea cant buy players so we will see if he actually has that kind of mentality or he just had his hand forced.

Anyway I agree with most of what you say, but I stand my point I don’t see the merit to Ole. Passing on aging players and replacing them with younger ones doesnt qualify in my opinion as giving youth a chance. He hasnt really moved on any quality player to integrate a youngster, he just replaced the aging players with younger ones.

 

[roonster09]

I thought Tammy and Mount were younger, but my point is Lampard incorporated young players that were nowhere near the first team before he arrived, of course he is forced by the fact that Chelsea cant buy players so we will see if he actually has that kind of mentality or he just had his hand forced.

Anyway I agree with most of what you say, but I stand my point I don’t see the merit to Ole. Passing on aging players and replacing them with younger ones doesnt qualify in my opinion as giving youth a chance. He hasnt really moved on any quality player to integrate a youngster, he just replaced the aging players with younger ones.

That would be insane isnt it? Why would anyone sell quality players.

 

[SAFMUTD]

That would be insane isnt it? Why would anyone sell quality players.

I dont mean the reference players, but any consolidated one. He has moved on from players that pretty much are past it, like Matic and Alexis if anything they forced the move on them with their poor performances. The only one that is credited to Ole is selling Lukaku to give Martial the spot but even that one is a controversial decision.

 

[meamth]

Fans are still divided by this regime.

I will never understand the Ole out camp.

We all braced ourselves for a rebuild season, not challenging the title. Here we are now, fighting our season with injuries and hard luck.

Things has started to pick up from now on, and this is all expected.

Ole has shown signs of improvement with this young squad, and we need to get behind him.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Fans are still divided by this regime.

I will never understand the Ole out camp.

We all braced ourselves for a rebuild season, not challenging the title. Here we are now, fighting our season with injuries and hard luck.

Things has started to pick up from now on, and this is all expected.

Ole has shown signs of improvement with this young squad, and we need to get behind him.

Nobody is mad because we arent challenging for the title, we knew that was really hard but we expected to challenge for top 4 and we are not even close to that.

Regarding the improvement we should be watching different games.

 

[POF]

My opinion has not changed.

Ole out.

I'm not going to be swayed by false dawns and the odd good performance with a few goals. We've seen too many of those since 2013 to continue falling for it. If Ole manages to win the next 3 on the bounce, I will then admit that I need to reassess the situation.

I stand by the fact that he is not a good enough manager to bring us glory and ultimately, we are a club that should be getting glory.

That's some long term thinking right there!!!

 

[meamth]

We're 7th, top 4 is still achievable. 4-4-4 and recently we're looking like a proper attacking unit now. Surely with good luck, we can pick up wins more after our bad start to the season.

I always believed that those points dropped was due to hard luck and injuries. There are bad games like Bournemouth, Southampton and Newcastle.

But never ignore the big games when we never disappoint.

After Martial returned, our win percentage is significantly better, and the football we're playing has gotten more entertaining.

Yes there were a bunch of dross games, but that is normal for a team that is plagued by injury and lack of form.

I'm sure we watched the same games, it's just that I understood when, why and how we're struggling.

For me, this team is exciting since the Moyes times, and it's promising to see in the near future what they can achieve.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

We're 7th, top 4 is still achievable. 4-4-4 and recently we're looking like a proper attacking unit now. Surely with good luck, we can pick up wins more after our bad start to the season.

I always believed that those points dropped was due to hard luck and injuries. There are bad games like Bournemouth, Southampton and Newcastle.

But never ignore the big games when we never disappoint.

After Martial returned, our win percentage is significantly better, and the football we're playing has gotten more entertaining.

Yes there were a bunch of dross games, but that is normal for a team that is plagued by injury and lack of form.

I'm sure we watched the same games, it's just that I understood when, why and how we're struggling.

For me, this team is exciting since the Moyes times, and it's promising to see in the near future what they can achieve.

It's achievable if consistent teams suddenly become inconsistent and for us to go through a hot patch of premier league form without key injuries. You're relying on Chelsea/Leicester to go through a slump.

 

[meamth]

It's achievable if consistent teams suddenly become inconsistent and for us to go through a hot patch of premier league form without key injuries. You're relying on Chelsea/Leicester to go through a slump.

Form is temporary, maybe it's our time to hit form. That all depends on the international break whether there will be new injuries to our players.

Leicester and Chelsea will have a slump, if not they should be challenging for the title. They are one or two injuries away from losing their brilliant run.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

7th and its still just Nov. Top 4 I guess is very achievable target with totts and arse flailing left right and center. So lets see what Ole can do now that our injury crisis are getting better and january is looming.

 

[djd]

7th and its still just Nov. Top 4 I guess is very achievable target with totts and arse flailing left right and center. So lets see what Ole can do now that our injury crisis are getting better and january is looming.

If Chelsea or Leicester drop their points per game by 20% for the rest of the season, United still need to improve by 60% to beat one of them to make top 4.

 

[sglowrider]

That's some long term thinking right there!!!

Too many FM 2019 superstars here.

 

[manunited1919]

Switching from Sack to Keep until the end of the season then reevalute.

I am still on sack mode, but perhaps open in the future to keep. I want to see a few more games where we play well. And in particular at least one game against a team that sits deep and counterattacks us. I have seen us really struggle against those teams and basically no tactical change from OLE to make us effective in that situation.

And when we are down a goal and he brings on Lindgard, I just think WTF and does Ole really know what he is doing?

 

[sglowrider]

7th and its still just Nov. Top 4 I guess is very achievable target with totts and arse flailing left right and center. So lets see what Ole can do now that our injury crisis are getting better and january is looming.

I think the remit for Ole will be Top 4 but not critical considering that the primary objective last summer was to reduce the wage bill (Woody needs to to ensure that man Utd reminds an attractive investment and is run properly, financially) and adding only a few new players. Lean down the squad into something that he can build going forward with.
Once that financial foundation is achieved, then we will see how much we have to really spend (big) next summer. And build in phases... depending on our financial KPIs and results.

 

[TheBlamelessOle]

I am still on sack mode, but perhaps open in the future to keep. I want to see a few more games where we play well. And in particular at least one game against a team that sits deep and counterattacks us. I have seen us really struggle against those teams and basically no tactical change from OLE to make us effective in that situation.

And when we are down a goal and he brings on Lindgard, I just think WTF and does Ole really know what he is doing?

We've been here before and Ole has proven himself to be a yes man. Being the Manager at this club means setting the standards, having gravitas and being a winner. All of our successful managers have been outsiders- Busby, Sir Alex, Mourinho and LVG. Moyes and Ole aren't assertive enough. Ole has imho, had 1 transfer window too many and needs to be replaced by Blanc or Allegri post haste. We have structural problems but one crucial factor being overlooked is that Ole himself is a part of that.

 

[meamth]

Too many FM 2019 superstars here.

Sorry, FM2020 will have the long term board feature.

FM19 doesn't have that!

 

[lysglimt]

Forget about the age. It is the ability. If you are good enough to play then you are good enough to play. Yes if we beat Sheffield United convincingly then maybe. But I do not feel he has the ability to compete with Klopp and Pep. That has to be the target for us to win the PL.

Not many has that ability - but nor do I believe Guardiola or Klopp will be around in 3-4 seasons. And besides this Liverpool-side has 2-3 seasons left at top-level because of their age, and to find a new combination of Firmino, Salah and Mane again won't be easy.

 

[Shiva87]

I am still on sack mode, but perhaps open in the future to keep. I want to see a few more games where we play well. And in particular at least one game against a team that sits deep and counterattacks us. I have seen us really struggle against those teams and basically no tactical change from OLE to make us effective in that situation.

And when we are down a goal and he brings on Lindgard, I just think WTF and does Ole really know what he is doing?

What options does he have to bring on at No. 10 when we are down a goal and he needs to change something? If he doesn't buy a new No. 10 by next summer, then that's a fair criticism.

 

[sglowrider]

Sorry, FM2020 will have the long term board feature.

FM19 doesn't have that!

Dam! If only I had waited. Impatient AF.

 

[Bobcat]

Yes, like I said in a post before judging a manager for a one game statistic is not the best of the ideas.

But lets look at the whole picture, Ole replaced a 33-34 year old Young with AWB whos 20-21, replaced Mata 32 with James 22 and Smalling 28 with Maguire 26. The main difference was playing Williams in that game, appart from him no one was really a youngster. The fact that he replaced old players with younger ones doesnt means he is playing youth.

Full credit to Ole for playing and trusting James that is turning out way better than spected, but thats about it and not to mention but he’s a bought player not an academy one so you’ll expect that someone bought even as a youngster should be capable of competing for a starting spot.

Besides James he isn’t really trusting any youngster, sure Greenwood and Williams get some minutes here and there but all the clubs give some of their youngsters minutes dont they? I dont think its a special factor about Ole or anything worth mentioning.

In our starting line-up at Sunday 4/11 were basically academy players and playing youth just for the sake of it is not smart. In any case, Greenwood has gotten plenty of time so far, Garner and Gomes less so, but they are not exactly top of the pecking order in their respective positions. Williams will no doubt get more games now as hes looked quite capable and no worse than Young. Chong has looked dreadful when hes been played and going by those games i very much doubt he will have a future here

Even with a squad as thin as ours we should do our best to introduce these players slowly and properly to build their confidence. Throwing on teenagers vs experienced PL veterans can be devastating both for the team and those players themselves if they preform poorly.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

If Chelsea or Leicester drop their points per game by 20% for the rest of the season, United still need to improve by 60% to beat one of them to make top 4.

Its a long season bro, sheffields chelsea first team players are good but a few injuries to their core players and trully teams get derail. I hope we sign decent backups and pogba shaw returning can improve any team. Im cautiously optimistic for top 4. Surely thats not impossible even for ole?

 

[Kemizee]

Give it a rest with this same old tired argument. Just because you cant join the dotted lines you have to bring up the managerial history argument? Our last three managers (incl Moyesy) were probably some of the most experienced managers in the world. Where did that get us?

A re-build/change management of any company or the startup of any organisation will also have its hiccups, or in startup parlance, its a hockey curve.

You cant always go comparing it to the past -- people forget that it was never a straight line to any successful regime incl Fergie's. He was one of the most successful managers ever. Its pointless to try and compare -- we may never hit those heights again. (And Fergie's genius wasnt that he was just successful but the fact that he built four generations of them in the same club -- thats what sets him apart.)

Its only people who can't see beyond reactionary or short term perspective ie week to week that are unable to see the grand scheme or big-picture plan that Ole is trying to implement. (And I have written about this in the past)

Yes, Ole may fail to translate the theoretical aspects aka the rebuild plan -- but it's not to be judged on a week to week basis. And not certainly now, with only one transfer window -- even though if you are to judge him his transfers, they have all had immediate impacts. That's a good sign as he sees and knows what he wants to fix and all three have dovetailed in perfectly.

But if you are to 'judge' it, you ought to plot a line of the scattered dots in the chart and you will see there is some upward trajectory at the moment. Whether it will get us back to the top, its too early to tell.

As they say, its not the destination. Its the journey.

Well, this big picture or grandscheme you talk about can only work with the right personnel in charge. Without the right personnel, we will simply not get to this destination you talking about. It's like that too in the corporate world of any business. You can dance around in circles pretending to make progress when in reality you aren't.

And I am sorry I don't see Ole, Carrick and Mike Phelan capable of challenging the top managers of the game. They simply don't have it in them. TIME does not automatically imbue anyone with what they don't have.

You talked about reactionary or short term perspective. I put it to you that most of the people who want Ole out are not petulant at all. They have assessed him over a long period to come to the conclusion that he is not the man for us. I for instance didn't expect him to win the league. Not at all. I loved the man and gave him a fair chance even when the club reneged on the earlier statement of 'finding a suitable replacement at the end of the season'. I expected him to have at least had a discernible pattern of play which we consistently apply. But alas! None. Just a mismash of diverse, ineffective styles week in, week out. Underdog status football at it's best.

The managers you talked about who failed(LVG and Mourinho) were on the downward spiral of their careers. Mourinho had already been effeminated by Madrid and his hubristic demeanour had vanished while LVG's highlights were last prominent 10 years ago(not counting the bland World Cup campaign with Holland). And moreso, because Mou and LVG failed, does that make Man United to be excluded from chasing top managers in the game anymore?
None of them were progressive managers on an upward trajectory like Ten Haag, Rose, Nagelsmann for instance. Those are the kind of managers we should be targeting and I can bet my life, they will do better here than Ole. It is not rocket science. They know what they are doing. Ole doesn't and I don't see any improvement at all.

The only reason why Ole is still managing us is because we are entrenched in sentiments as a club, he is the perfect Glazer puppet whom the match going fans will not turn on and we are not a serious football club anymore. If we were a truly ambitious club (others have sacked managers for less), he should have long been gone. Do you think Ole would survive at Real, Bayern, Juve for instance with a winning record like the one he currently has at Man United? The answer is a big NO. Because those are clubs who don't tolerate mediocrity. We do and that is why we are not catching up with them any time soon. Untill Man United as a club look beyond these 'We need another Fergie, Class of 92, United Way' nonsense, we will remain in the trenches of the European game. OGS is not a Manchester United Manager on merit. If it were, I doubt even Championship clubs would seek his CV.

Now whether ascending back to the summit of the European game as a club is of primary interest in your opinion is up to you to decide or whether the romance of 'It's Solksjaer again' trumps whatever we do as a club. But hear me, Man United cannot eat their cake and have it. We will either choose as a club to be progressive or choose to wallow in mediocrity and sentiments. One of this has been happening last seven years and if we keep going in that slope, there is only one outcome and it will take more than lip service to rise again.

 

[ReddBalls]

We've been here before and Ole has proven himself to be a yes man. Being the Manager at this club means setting the standards, having gravitas and being a winner. All of our successful managers have been outsiders- Busby, Sir Alex, Mourinho and LVG. Moyes and Ole aren't assertive enough. Ole has imho, had 1 transfer window too many and needs to be replaced by Blanc or Allegri post haste. We have structural problems but one crucial factor being overlooked is that Ole himself is a part of that.

OK. Hit me with a facts that proves beyond doubt that Ole's is a yes man.

 

[ReddBalls]

Well, this big picture or grandscheme you talk about can only work with the right personnel in charge. Without the right personnel, we will simply not get to this destination you talking about. It's like that too in the corporate world of any business. You can dance around in circles pretending to make progress when in reality you aren't.

And I am sorry I don't see Ole, Carrick and Mike Phelan capable of challenging the top managers of the game. They simply don't have it in them. TIME does not automatically imbue anyone with what they don't have.

You talked about reactionary or short term perspective. I put it to you that most of the people who want Ole out are not petulant at all. They have assessed him over a long period to come to the conclusion that he is not the man for us. I for instance didn't expect him to win the league. Not at all. I loved the man and gave him a fair chance even when the club reneged on the earlier statement of 'finding a suitable replacement at the end of the season'. I expected him to have at least had a discernible pattern of play which we consistently apply. But alas! None. Just a mismash of diverse, ineffective styles week in, week out. Underdog status football at it's best.

The managers you talked about who failed(LVG and Mourinho) were on the downward spiral of their careers. Mourinho had already been effeminated by Madrid and his hubristic demeanour had vanished while LVG's highlights were last prominent 10 years ago(not counting the bland World Cup campaign with Holland). And moreso, because Mou and LVG failed, does that make Man United to be excluded from chasing top managers in the game anymore?
None of them were progressive managers on an upward trajectory like Ten Haag, Rose, Nagelsmann for instance. Those are the kind of managers we should be targeting and I can bet my life, they will do better here than Ole. It is not rocket science. They know what they are doing. Ole doesn't and I don't see any improvement at all.

The only reason why Ole is still managing us is because we are entrenched in sentiments as a club, he is the perfect Glazer puppet whom the match going fans will not turn on and we are not a serious football club anymore. If we were a truly ambitious club (others have sacked managers for less), he should have long been gone. Do you think Ole would survive at Real, Bayern, Juve for instance with a winning record like the one he currently has at Man United? The answer is a big NO. Because those are clubs who don't tolerate mediocrity. We do and that is why we are not catching up with them any time soon. Untill Man United as a club look beyond these 'We need another Fergie, Class of 92, United Way' nonsense, we will remain in the trenches of the European game. OGS is not a Manchester United Manager on merit. If it were, I doubt even Championship clubs would seek his CV.

Now whether ascending back to the summit of the European game as a club is of primary interest in your opinion is up to you to decide or whether the romance of 'It's Solksjaer again' trumps whatever we do as a club. But hear me, Man United cannot eat their cake and have it. We will either choose as a club to be progressive or choose to wallow in mediocrity and sentiments. One of this has been happening last seven years and if we keep going in that slope, there is only one outcome and it will take more than lip service to rise again.

What kind of insight and knowledge about football management do you possess that makes it possible for you to conclude that they "doesn't have it in them". What kind of evidence do you base that on? You have written at length, but you in no way argue this crucial point which is what your entire post is based on.

 

[meamth]

What irks me is that saying Ole has no idea about management, no idea what he is doing, no idea this, no idea that, no clue whatsoever.

Great managers aren't predicted to be the greatest manager of all time, they make their own luck and history.

With proper infrastructure, any individual can achieve greatness.

Fine, you want to follow the upward trajectories, the moneyball model. But nobody predicted Sir Alex to be the greatest manager of all time when he started.

People say Ole has no way or identity of playing his football team, I see him trying to implement fast attacking breaks, but it's a work in progress.

Still, there will be people who say we're shyte playing football, more boring than LVG, etc. But you can't simply say Ole has no idea, like a donkey pulling a big cart. That is just lazy assessment.

 

[lysglimt]

What kind of insight and knowledge about football management do you possess that makes it possible for you to conclude that they "doesn't have it in them". What kind of evidence do you base that on? You have written at length, but you in no way argue this crucial point which is what your entire post is based on.

Here lies the problem - The keep Ole-people can't prove that he is good enough. The sack Ole-people can't prove he isn't good enough

But people saying they KNOW either way - are stupid. I think he is the right person for us here and now, I may even be pretty confident, but I could be wrong. But even if I am one of those who defend him the most, you will never hear me say "I KNOW he is the right person for us".

I am however willing to accept a mediocre season because I see signs of something that I am confident will pay off in 12-18 months. When you look at how good this team can perform on their day with a bunch om 20-23 year olds in the side and we have even bigger talents who are likely to be regulars in 2-3 years - I am not worried. And we will have off-days because our squad is thin and we have too many youngsters for it to be ideal.

But on our day we can tear Chelsea apart, we can (almost) beat Liverpool, we can completely shackle Leicesters attackers, we can destroy teams like Norwich and Brighton. But we are not good enough to do it regularly...YET!

 

[meamth]

Here lies the problem - The keep Ole-people can't prove that he is good enough. The sack Ole-people can't prove he isn't good enough

But people saying they KNOW either way - are stupid. I think he is the right person for us here and now, I may even be pretty confident, but I could be wrong. But even if I am one of those who defend him the most, you will never hear me say "I KNOW he is the right person for us".

I am however willing to accept a mediocre season because I see signs of something that I am confident will pay off in 12-18 months. When you look at how good this team can perform on their day with a bunch om 20-23 year olds in the side and we have even bigger talents who are likely to be regulars in 2-3 years - I am not worried. And we will have off-days because our squad is thin and we have too many youngsters for it to be ideal.

But on our day we can tear Chelsea apart, we can (almost) beat Liverpool, we can completely shackle Leicesters attackers, we can destroy teams like Norwich and Brighton. But we are not good enough to do it regularly...YET!

This. Totally agreed with this.

This inconsistencies are different from the years of LVG and Mourinho.

This side gave us the belief that they will become something bigger in the future, and that is comforting to us patient fans.

I believe in this squad to be something great, and to keep that belief alive, we need Ole to stay. Let him promote these current crop of players.

 

[POF]

Well, this big picture or grandscheme you talk about can only work with the right personnel in charge. Without the right personnel, we will simply not get to this destination you talking about. It's like that too in the corporate world of any business. You can dance around in circles pretending to make progress when in reality you aren't.

And I am sorry I don't see Ole, Carrick and Mike Phelan capable of challenging the top managers of the game. They simply don't have it in them. TIME does not automatically imbue anyone with what they don't have.

You talked about reactionary or short term perspective. I put it to you that most of the people who want Ole out are not petulant at all. They have assessed him over a long period to come to the conclusion that he is not the man for us. I for instance didn't expect him to win the league. Not at all. I loved the man and gave him a fair chance even when the club reneged on the earlier statement of 'finding a suitable replacement at the end of the season'. I expected him to have at least had a discernible pattern of play which we consistently apply. But alas! None. Just a mismash of diverse, ineffective styles week in, week out. Underdog status football at it's best.

The managers you talked about who failed(LVG and Mourinho) were on the downward spiral of their careers. Mourinho had already been effeminated by Madrid and his hubristic demeanour had vanished while LVG's highlights were last prominent 10 years ago(not counting the bland World Cup campaign with Holland). And moreso, because Mou and LVG failed, does that make Man United to be excluded from chasing top managers in the game anymore?
None of them were progressive managers on an upward trajectory like Ten Haag, Rose, Nagelsmann for instance. Those are the kind of managers we should be targeting and I can bet my life, they will do better here than Ole. It is not rocket science. They know what they are doing. Ole doesn't and I don't see any improvement at all.

The only reason why Ole is still managing us is because we are entrenched in sentiments as a club, he is the perfect Glazer puppet whom the match going fans will not turn on and we are not a serious football club anymore. If we were a truly ambitious club (others have sacked managers for less), he should have long been gone. Do you think Ole would survive at Real, Bayern, Juve for instance with a winning record like the one he currently has at Man United? The answer is a big NO. Because those are clubs who don't tolerate mediocrity. We do and that is why we are not catching up with them any time soon. Untill Man United as a club look beyond these 'We need another Fergie, Class of 92, United Way' nonsense, we will remain in the trenches of the European game. OGS is not a Manchester United Manager on merit. If it were, I doubt even Championship clubs would seek his CV.

Now whether ascending back to the summit of the European game as a club is of primary interest in your opinion is up to you to decide or whether the romance of 'It's Solksjaer again' trumps whatever we do as a club. But hear me, Man United cannot eat their cake and have it. We will either choose as a club to be progressive or choose to wallow in mediocrity and sentiments. One of this has been happening last seven years and if we keep going in that slope, there is only one outcome and it will take more than lip service to rise again.

One thing time does automatically "imbue" him with is probably the thing he most lacks - experience of managing a club at the highest level. A major consideration is, if Ole is still in charge in 12 months, will he be a better manager than he is now.

As for fans assessing him over "a long period", he hasn't even been in charge for a season yet. And if you can't see a style of play developing for United under Ole, I really don't know what to tell you. The favoured style of play is really clear. Whether they have had the available players to implement it (especially with Martial and Pogba missing large chunks of the season) is another question.

As for whether another club would stick with Ole, that's comparing apples with oranges. United are one of the few clubs in world football who place the responsibility of building the squad on the manager.

When you entrust a manager with a long term rebuild, sacrificing the current season by gutting the squad before a future rebuild, you can't sack him a few months later for poor results.