We could argue back and forth about which of them was the more pressing issue, but at the end of the day we needed reinforcements in all those positions. The thing is though, considering we also wold Lukaku this summer, out net spend was not really that high and if Ole had to chose between signing either a CB or a CM, we are fecked no matter who is managing us because then our rebuild will take forever
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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We could argue back and forth about which of them was the more pressing issue, but at the end of the day we needed reinforcements in all those positions. The thing is though, considering we also wold Lukaku this summer, out net spend was not really that high and if Ole had to chose between signing either a CB or a CM, we are fecked no matter who is managing us because then our rebuild will take forever
SAF's example isn't a very good one. The context have nothing in common. There is never gonna be another SAF anyway so let's stop using him as a point of reference.
In Klopp’s first full season, like Ole is in now, Liverpool finished 4th and there were obvious signs of progress. They didn’t want him out at the equivalent time, the Klopp/Ole comparison has no relevance.
Yes that's the trick for any manager to succeed. Give anyone 5 years and they will turn to the new SAF, because it succeeded one time with the best manager in football history, it's going to always succeed. Other things don't matter, just time.
Klopp reached 2 finals including a European one in his first season when he got the job in November without transfer business before it. Next season he got 4th.
Frankly had the balls to cut out some deadwood and play the youth.. not because of this season - but the next.
I just hope he gets the time to see the end product.
There is still so much to replace it's unreal.
Yep I can see that but ole needs to improve his in game managment and hopfully he will when he gets more options from the bench.
I think most would agree that he's not in the top bracket manager wise(probobally Bruce or Hughes level)plus having the glazers/Woodward at the helm makes his job near impossible for a manager of his level.(we would need the best manager in the world to be anywhere near challenging for the 2 big trophys).
Having said that his signings have been good and there some good youth players comming through plus the mood of the club is very good even though the results are hit and miss.
It's now up the board to get at least 1 player in January followed buy another 3 next summer.
No matter how many threads or polls are created on any MUFC forum our problems will only be solved once the glazers are gone.
End of.
Nothing concrete in your post, only wishful thinking and hopes.
Is he signing the right players?
To small sample size. As far as we know none of Maguire, AWB and DJ was originally his ideas. He did well by approving them but let’s be real. Maguire cost us £80m and going by yesterday’s game it’s highly debatable if he’s worth it. Dan James has done well but is he a automatic starter for a team to aspire to be among the best in the PL?
How about his outgoing record? We lost Lukaku and Sanchez without any replacements. That’s totally his responsibility. He could easily refused to sell one of them without a replacement. Why getting rid of Smalling? Why give Jones a new contract? Why start the season with only Pogba as our only creative midfielder. Why promote Pereira to be a starter. Why give Mata a new contract? Nothing suggest he has a master plan regarding building a competitive squad. Many of us on this site could do a similar job, or even better.
Are the players improving?
I’m struggling to mention one players who’s better since last season. Maybe Rojo and Pereira. I say that Greenwood and McTominay comes with age. Apart from those players I can’t see any improvements. It’s easier to pinpoint players who has regressed. Lindelof. Mata. Lingard. Matic. The rest is more or less as expected.
Do they believe in him?
We have absolutely no idea. Ask Lukaku, Pogba and Smalling. Wait until he’s gone. Then we will hear the truth.
Is his vision and planning for the future solid and sustainable?
Going into a season with a paper thin squad is that good planning? Is it part of his vision to continue use a formation that clearly doesn’t work without the right kind of quality. Madness to play Pogba in a double defensive pivot when we lack so much creativity up front. Mind blowing!
I say this again. Results don’t lie. Can we see improvements? Highly highly debatable.
Nothing would make me happier then Ole turn this around but so far I can’t see any signs that support your belief and wishful thinking. No offense SteveW but there is no visual evidence that Ole is competent enough to take us back to become a elite club again. My take on him so far is that he’s a better talker then a coach and a manager. But unfortunately a nice smile and smooth talks don’t deliver results.
We've been really really shit for most parts this season, the worst we've seen United in a long time. Yet whenever there is a win against poor opposition, Ole should get more time. If we look at the overall season, Ole has been a very poor manager. Based on results, played football, tactics, player performances etc.
SAF had shown at Aberdeen that he could build a squad to challenge domestically and in Europe. So it was easy to see why he would be afforded time in a era where he was dealing with players who were getting pissed everyday. Ole hasn't shown anything at the top level to suggest he can turn things around in our current predicament and the job in it's current state requires people with alot of talent and vision which we seem to be lacking from a coaching/structural perspective.
I also disagree that Ole has bought well. He's actually bought poorly when you take into consideration the money he was afforded on the three players that were bought. Giggs recommended James by all reports so I will not incude him. But the total spent on Maguire and AWB was poor business when the midfield needed major surgery and a RW hasn't been since the days of Antonio Valencia?? We have been struggling to create opportunities against packed defences for 6 years and from my perspective it was poor planning to neglect the same areas again. And to let the likes of Lukaku, Smalling, Fellaini, Herrera etc leave without a plan to bring in replacements showed the complete inexperience in our thought process regards planning ahead for the season. I personally would've preferred to see the entire budget spent on two mids, LB and a RW and kept Smalling.
We could've spent the £130m we gave to Leicester and Palace in a much smarter way. There were players who could've been bought much cheaper than both who could've at the very least replicated the performances we've seen from out current new signings. Maguire lacks acceleration and has a weakness when exposed to players with a low centre of gravity. AWB is limited in attack and there's players better than him going forward in relegation threatened teams. I don't believe he will be a longterm option for us at RB due to his limited skillset. I think in time, these two signings will be considered mistakes by Ole due to what was actually required further forward.
I also disagree that Ole has bought well. He's actually bought poorly when you take into consideration the money he was afforded on the three players that were bought. Giggs recommended James by all reports so I will not incude him. But the total spent on Maguire and AWB was poor business when the midfield needed major surgery and a RW hasn't been since the days of Antonio Valencia?? We have been struggling to create opportunities against packed defences for 6 years and from my perspective it was poor planning to neglect the same areas again. And to let the likes of Lukaku, Smalling, Fellaini, Herrera etc leave without a plan to bring in replacements showed the complete inexperience in our thought process regards planning ahead for the season. I personally would've preferred to see the entire budget spent on two mids, LB and a RW and kept Smalling.
We could've spent the £130m we gave to Leicester and Palace in a much smarter way. There were players who could've been bought much cheaper than both who could've at the very least replicated the performances we've seen from out current new signings. Maguire lacks acceleration and has a weakness when exposed to players with a low centre of gravity. AWB is limited in attack and there's players better than him going forward in relegation threatened teams. I don't believe he will be a longterm option for us at RB due to his limited skillset. I think in time, these two signings will be considered mistakes by Ole due to what was actually required further forward.
1) The drinking habits of players then is irrelevant - the United players were no more or less professional than their contemporaries. It was just the culture for English football and Fergie did not instigate change there until the mid 1990s, and tbf it was Wenger that changed it all regarding the drinking culture in English football.
2) It took Ferguson 4 years before he made any consistent progress in the league. He had 3 bottom half finishes in that time. Why was it 'easy' for your board to make the decision to keep him, but it was apparently unacceptable for Woodward to keep Ole now (or far more tellingly, keep LvG or Mourinho in their struggles)?
Massive disconnect there, surely.
Again, I repeat for emphasis - Fergie was allowed 3 bottom half seasons out of 4 years. After United qualified for Europe via the league in 5 of the previous 6 seasons pre-Fergie when 4th place was the final UEFA cup spot.
It was not normal for managers to struggle that badly for that long and be kept on at any point, in the 1980s, before then or after.
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Yeah. We are always 1 or 2 injuries away from being very poor. Losing our best 2 outfield players for long periods has really hurt us.
I would've been happy with getting a CB if it meant we got a big upgrade on what we had, especially at that price, but we didn't. We spent £80m on a modest upgrade (at best) on our best defender and then decided to loan that defender out to Roma. It's truly a baffling decision and anyone who says Ole did amazing in the transfer window is being as naive as he was. Spending £80m on Maguire and subsequently ignoring midfield, right wing and up front was a ridiculous thing to do.
We were basically in the same situation as Liverpool only they got the best defender in the world and we got maybe a top 10 PL defender.
I don’t know why people keep comparing Ole to likes of Klopp, Pep and SAF. He has no relevance to any of them, they are all much better managers.
SAF was fortunate not to be sacked, but he came with a much stronger CV and reputation. It was obviously a great decision to stick with him but I do t see what relevance it has to a much worse manager in a completely different era.
Ole isn’t a novice, his career speaks for itself and it probably peaked in that first spell at Molde (who seem to have got better without him now). We should be keeping him for his talent or actions not because of comparisons that do not have any relevance.
Never mind Ole, how about LvG or Mourinho? Or any future manager. Unlike Ole, they have/will probably have the track record.
The manager doesn't matter, the disconnect is the same. And don't talk about eras - Big Ron was sacked at United for having a bad start to the 85-86 season and for no other reason if I recall correctly. Very 'modern' sacking, wouldn't you agree?
I never said that he changed anything regards drinking. But he had to deal with it. Also using someone like Fergie who was a proven winner at the highest level at Aberdeen to defend Ole is silly. Fergie had shown the ability to build a team to challenge for top honours. Ole on the other hand hasn't done anything in his managerial career to warrant such a job, nevermind faith.
Fergie went from multiple league and cup wins at Aberdeen and a European victory against Real Madrid to the United job. Ole went from Cardiff, Molde to the United job.
It's understandable why many would be critical of ole. And the time a proven manager like Fergie got is irrelevant to what current day Ole has shown in the last 10 years of his career.
All 3 players he has bought have been amongst our best this season. You mention players out there that would have atleast been as good, meaning you probably think they could be better.
Which are these players you've identified and their price?
Even if that's true it's not saying much seeing as most of our players have been dogshit this season. I also disagree on that with Maguire. He started well but has been pretty poor for a while now. He doesn't look anything close to the level of defender you'd expect for that sort of money.
The new players being amongst our best doesn't really say much considering the current squad is the worst I've seen in 30 years.
Yes I did mention players at the time who I believed would've been better for a rebuild. You don't start a rebuild by spunking the majority of your budget on a CB and a RB when there's a clear lack of creativity in central midfield.
I think Ole overestimated what he thought he could get out of Matic, Lingard, Mata and Pereira when that bunch has been utterly dreadful and haven't given anything resembling half of what is needed at PL level let alone Manchester United. Factor in Pogba and Martial missing for large chuncks of the season then you have a perfect storm and that decision to spend all the money on the defense begins to look worse and worse.
I think Ole still rates Pereira highly and likes what he's seeing, as he starts practically every PL game, and will probably for someone unknown reason start on Sunday too.
Look at all the Einsteins in this thread,
So great are your insights that its only a matter of time upon which you will all be called upon to manage a great football club as its obvious you have got it all figured out....
Silly of me to think that someone who has actually managed and played top class football knows more than yourselves.
We are all mere morals in comparison to your greatness
So great are your insights that its only a matter of time upon which you will all be called upon to manage a great football club as its obvious you have got it all figured out....
Silly of me to think that someone who has actually managed and played top class football knows more than yourselves.
We are all mere morals in comparison to your greatness
You don’t need to be a genius to see that Ole is useless here and is only in this job because he is a club legend. When he is sacked he will disappear like Moyes because no decent team will touch him.
I guess we should close down the forum in that case. Ole played professionally at a high player so knows more than everyone else..
Lazy attempt at being WUM.
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Anyone whose opinion fluctuates in either direction based on a 3-0 meaningless win over the 5th best team in Serbia is not worthy of engaging to be honest.
Still think Ole's nowhere near a top manager.
Still think Ole's nowhere near a top manager.
Let's see how this season ends for us then. A lot of people don't want to admit it now but Klopp was Flopp in the eyes of most back then. We are too quick to judge as fans imo.
Ole being compared to Klopp is so weird and pointless, don't get why its happening. The only thing they have in common is they both manage top clubs. Everyone and their dog knows Klopp is on another planet in terms of being a managerial talent compared to Ole.
We (including me) were jealous of admitting he was doing well and improving them on regular basis, however that was the reality. In his first season he got the job in November, played great football and reached 2 finals. Their league form was inconsistent back then because of their fragile defense. Next season he finished top 4 and was in it for the majority of the season. Next season CL and challenging for the league.
And that without even speaking of his track record in Germany with BVB.
Sorry but it's too obvious the comparison doesn't make any kind of sense. The problem is, the "let's see how the season will end" argument won't make much difference because let's imagine we finish 7th or 8th, will you guys blame Ole? No you won't. You will say the squad was shite, Ed fecked up the squad etc of these already planned excuses, so for the Ole in crowd he will always be on the safe side, results are thanks to him, and losses are thanks to board, players, Woodward.. Etc.
I loved laughing at Klopp losing finals, but it was obvious so early on he had a plan and an idea, and we could see it ridiculously quickly.
What if we reach one or two finals and even win one or two cups? And what if we continue to have the best or one of the best defenses in the league in terms of chances created against? Would that be seen as improvement or is your opinion set from november?
Well let him do that and he will get praised and will deserve another season. Will he so? And if he didn't will he get the blame or it wjll be everyone else bar him as usual?
As for our defense, I don't see anything special with it bar AWB individual performance. Maguire has been decent at best but not outstanding and Lindelof has returned to feck up several times. Reminds me of Smalling and Blind partnership which was extremely overrated.
But who are they? We've clearly invested in players that are massive upgrades on what we already had, so I'm not sure how you can say Ole has bought poorly. We've got to start somewhere.
Harry Maguire is not a massive upgrade on what we already had.
We let in 58 goals last season. The defense needed addressing. BADLY. To say otherwise is just peculiar. No one wanted to see another season with Phil Jones playing starter minutes. Instead we bought a captain in Harry Maguire who had his FIRST so-so match last night, and AWB who have transfered our right back position from a Ashley Young nightmare to a "Oh they're attacking on their left flank? We're safe then" situation.
We are MUCH better off this season in the back. Losing Herrera was not the end all be all of the midfield. Fellaini wasn't playing much anyway. We have McTominay who's taken enormous strides since last season. Fact of the matter is that our midfield has been hampered by injury problems all season. And before you say that "all teams have injuries". Yes they have. No they are not as significant as ours have been. We had 9 first team players out injured one round, a Premier League record on the season. Our singular most important player has been long term injured and won't be back until December. Angel Gomes and Chong were relied on to take first team steps, Garner is being given frequent first team minutes. We are choosing development over second best options.
Brandon Williams have come out of the woodwork during the season and shown promise that he can be a fantastic left back.
But hey, we DID TRY to address the midfield issue. Ole is not the man that gets the signings done. He gives the names. Head of Negotiations gets the deal done. He didn't land the men we needed, and here we are. The club policy is to NOT go for the 2nd best option. We go for our guy, or we don't go at all, but try again at the next junction. We know for a fact that we've had offers on midfielders rejected during the summer transfer window. So claiming that Oles purchases were bad because they are not midfielders, is just a lie. The club didn't get the business done, and that is all there is to it.
Hey, we even tried to purchase attackers. Paulo Dybala became a target to replace Lukaku. Hell we even tried to do a player swap. That didn't work out, so instead of buying a kneejerk reaction player, we looked to Mason Greenwood to develop. The kid is 17, and he's scoring already. No doubt his first EPL goal will come in short time.
I love where the team is headed. The MUFC team that's playing in the EPL, is the youngest team in the league with an avg age under 25. Literally in tune with the board and the managers statement that they are re-building the team, playing kids over aging veterans. Don't mistake playing kids over veterans as never having someone over the age of 30 in the lineup thought, starters are still picked on skill or fatigue management (Young v Williams yesterday for example. Young is suspended in the EPL so Williams gets the start, but was not subbed on last night because of McTominays injury).
But the reliance on the kids is also too much as it has proven, when there are not enough healthy veterans on the field to coddle them. So the club is actively saying that business in January is a possibility. However we should only expect placeholder pieces, or talents bought out from seller clubs. Zlatan might be an option for a half-season MUFC comeback. A great option to be fair. The big swede still got a good season left in him. Haaland is definitely a possibility, assuming Salzburg does not price him away. Sander Berge might be a midfield target. The available players entirely depends on what clubs are still in the European competitions. Tottenham need to sell Erik Christensen in January if they want to get money for him. He's a bosman player after the season. He's only 27 and has just entered his prime.
But we should all be happy about the development. So far we can be fairly sure that Mason Greenwood, Brandon Williams and Alex Tuanzebe are going to establish themselves as first team players this season. Angel Gomes is in the mix, James Garner is on the rise. Tahit Chong.. I don't know. He's on his final months of his contract and won't renew unless given a proper offer. I'm not convinced he's done enough to warrant a big senior contract.
From the current crop of MUFC regulars, Pereira, Lingard, Mata, Young are the only ones who don't do it for me, but those positions are all being replaced by academy graduates. Players like Phil Jones and Matic will most likely move on. Matic is very clearly not part of Oles plans. Jones is currently 5th choice centerback behind Maguire, Lindelöf, Tuanzebe and Rojo.
Then there are the long term injured dark horses in Dalot and Bailly that we don't really know where we have yet. I like Shaw, but his injury history is a big detriment, he seems easy to sideline for some reason.
Either way, exciting days ahead.
This is a really good post and I agree with must of it.
We are in agreement regarding our players. Our opinions differs regarding Ole and his abilities. That’s where we see things differently.
Ron Atkinson was sacked because Utd were near the bottom the league about a third of way through season. The statistics about this being our worst start to a season since 1986 are because of that start. Atkinson also finished the previous season poorly so it’s quite easy to see why he was sacked. He at least did so badly in that final season that Ole has some way to go before he is as bad.
The manager does matter, Ole got the job due to one winning run and having played for us. Appointing him was a punt which is fair enough, but you can’t get more stupid than trying to build a long term strategy around that initial punt.
All comparing Ole to other managers does is highlight how much we have handicapped ourselves by appointing such a limited manager.
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Big Ron was sacked for a lot of reasons - but he didn't have a bad start, he had a catastrophical start with 1 win, 1 draw and 6 defeats from the first 8. Then the form picked up slightly so United had 13 Points from the first 15 matches but were 19th at the table - and when we got hammered 4-1 in the League cup by Southampton it was bye bye Big Ron.
But another problem was that Big Ron had collected a group of aging and injury-ridden players where many of them had reached the end of their career - and this was the main reason why Ferguson was given so much time. The players he took over was simply not good enough (sound familiar ?)
Forget the two cup finals if Ole finishes 4th this season very few will be complaining.
We’ll soon be able to put the Klopp comparison to bed once and for all because Ole’s results in comparison will slip further and further behind and we aren’t going to finish 4th. By end of season he may have even lost more Premier League games at Utd than Klopp has at Liverpool.
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