I wish Ed ran our club more like Roman Abramovich runs Chelsea. I mean, he sacked Di Matteo even though he had won them the UCL the previous season. Ed wouldn’t have the guts to pull the trigger in that situation.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
- Thread starter MrSingh2002
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Rome wasn't built in a day, relax, Ole has got this.
How are the criticisms excessive when the football has been woeful, the squad laughably thin and club in danger of not even making it to Europa League?
That's three things he could have done right but he got everything wrong. Our football, the results and transfer dealings are all in the wrong direction.
If rebuilding the squad involves tearing it thin and using youngsters to tide over until the next transfer window, then its not really rebuilding, its poor planning. Completely absurd how we are allowed to go into this season with such a squad and we paying the price now.
We are not going to attract any top players here if we don't even make it to the Europa League. Its all inter-linked. You can't just look at it as a singular entity.
It's silly that these sort of false dawns are looked as genuine improvements, we are going to give our all against Liverpool regardless of any manager and they are not even in that good form, they are struggling to win these last few games. Norwich has the crappiest defence in the league, the amount of space Rashford got for his goal should show their level. Against Chelsea we were once again saved by individual brilliance (luck if you ask me).
When Mourinho demanded signings after finishing second but far behind City, didn't get them and we proceeded to play badly in the league,
Redcafe: "feckING TOXIC PIECE OF PAST IT MANAGER HE SHOULD BE feckING SACKED HE SHOULD DO BETTER WITH THE PLAYERS WE HAVE.
When Ole talked big about rebuilding the team during the summer, sold Fellaini straightaway as a statement, let go of our best striker and second best midfielder without any replacement, and proceed to play way worse in the league than Jose and is nearer to the relegation zone than top 4,
Redcafe: "Ole needs more time, he needs more signing, our players are shit and that's why he can't do anything about it. It's alright if we lost to the likes of Palace and Bournemouth, they have better players than us. Let's give him another year to sign more players and let's see what he can do with a better squad. It's not like we can hire anyone better at the moment anyway (seriously?
)"
The mental gymnastics are astounding.
Redcafe: "feckING TOXIC PIECE OF PAST IT MANAGER HE SHOULD BE feckING SACKED HE SHOULD DO BETTER WITH THE PLAYERS WE HAVE.
When Ole talked big about rebuilding the team during the summer, sold Fellaini straightaway as a statement, let go of our best striker and second best midfielder without any replacement, and proceed to play way worse in the league than Jose and is nearer to the relegation zone than top 4,
Redcafe: "Ole needs more time, he needs more signing, our players are shit and that's why he can't do anything about it. It's alright if we lost to the likes of Palace and Bournemouth, they have better players than us. Let's give him another year to sign more players and let's see what he can do with a better squad. It's not like we can hire anyone better at the moment anyway (seriously?
)"The mental gymnastics are astounding.
The thing is though, our clubs continued existence does not rely on getting European football. Sure, CL football bring in a nice slump of money and prestige, but we have managed without it before and we will again this year, and i'd imagine the actual consequences are that the Glazers and their shareholders get a little less profit. That's why i think its not a gamble worth taking. Not because i want to see Ole in the chair at all costs, but because we do a massive disservice to any new manager coming in. Like it or not, Ole is still enormously popular among the matchgoing fans, which is evident by his songs being sung pretty much all the time both home and away.
So say Ole get sacked and the next manager comes in around Christmas, fatigue and injuries become a problem and he gets a rough start. The media would pounce on that like it was a celebrity sex scandal, and even though i doubt the crowds would turn on him. The pressure to deliver would be massive from the get go. It also tells the manager in no uncertain terms that: "You will get this half season where you had no preseason, you get one window to fix this and next season you must deliver or you are gone". And regarding that bolded part. Thats very easy to say now, but i can almost guarantee that this place would be screaming for a new manager if say Allegri took us too two 5th places in a row.
-Allegri is no doubt a good coach, you dont win 5 consecutive league titles if you are a bad one, but he strikes me as more of a master tactician than a superior squad builder. That Juventus team he took over was brimming with quality in every single position. Ironically, Pogba is in both teams, but from Pirlo and Vidal to Fred and Pereira...that's a ridiculous drop in quality. In any case, he seems to be the favorite to taking the Bayern job now, which is undoubtedly a lot more tempting than taking over this shitshow
-Poch is a terrific coach, but thats what he is at Tottenham. A coach. https://talksport.com/football/580352/tottenham-news-mauricio-pochettino-transfers/. The job descriptions here and what he has done at Spurs could not be more different. And Spurs is in fact below us on the table. I just find it strange to replace a struggling manager with someone who is struggling even more, with a much better squad. Maybe he needs a break from football? Maybe Poch can manage us one day, but if he got here now i can see it ending badly for everyone
-Tuchel: 39% win precentage with Mainz, sacked from Dortmund after two seasons and one cup win and he had Kagawa and Mihitaryan tearing up the German league. And honestly, winning the league with PSG is not a very high bar to clear. Emery did just that and he is starting to look like a dead man walking at Arsenal.
-Nagelsmann, Ten Hag, Rose: Promising young coaches no doubt, but having one of those poor bastards taking over now would be the very definition of throwing them to the wolves.
And i am not trying to big up Ole here and undermine these other managers. Allegri in particular has a stellar CV, but as i've said. I would much rather see him introduced next summer if things continue this badly. And we do have a style of play though, the problem is that we cant perform in very well because we lack the players to do so. We would not have stopped a rampant Liverpool side or won away against Chelsea in terrific form if he had absolutely no clue on how to set up a team. B'mouth was no doubt a rotten performance, but they were up for it and we were clearly not. Maybe it was tired legs from having so many away games in a short span of time. Ole deserves blame for reverting back to 4231 which has clearly not worked to well, but vs B'mouth we also had a string of very poor individual performances from pretty much everyone involved so tactics is not the only reason we lost. Its also worth mentioning that the team we fielded at Saturday is not the blockbuster superstar teams of the past. Among the MF and attack, only Martial and Fred were actual big money signings (and Fred is worth about 1/10 of his price), the rest were academy players + James.
I am sorry, but i dont think maybe having some short term gain is worth the risk considering what is at stake here. Say if we at the end of the 20/21 season have gone through two more managers because we show so little patience, i doubt any sane manager would want a sip from this poison chalice
I expected us to finish 6th this season with the squad we have. We are currently 3 points off that which can be turned around. I seem to be a better judge of our players abilities than those that are in hysterics after every defeat.
No, 3 wins in 11 isn't good enough for Manchester United but this is far from a United quality team that we have been used to. It's a mid table quality team getting mid table results especially with the injuries we've had.
Crying about win percentages every day isn't going to turn Fred into Scholes, Lindelof into Ferdinand or Pereira into Ronaldo. It will take time for the youngsters to come good and consistent (half of them probably won't make it) and we need to hope we get the next few transfer windows spot on whether it's under Solskjaer or the next man.
We have a much better squad than Leicester but they have a much much better manager. And yest Frank Lampard is a better manager than Ole. As for Klopp and Pep they are in a different galaxy compared to Solskjaer.
There is a host of managers with less experience than OGS had when he was appointed. Let's not forget that he has been a manager for almost a decade. He's not inexperienced, that's just another excuse. He's simply not a good manager. Even if one sets aside the structural issues at the club and the holes in the squad, one would have to deploy major mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that OGS is (1) the best possible manager for the club at the moment and/or (2) it's worth persisting with him because there is evidence that he will turn this around in a way that another manager could not.
I don't know if we do have a "much" better squad than Leicester. I'd swap most of our team for theirs. Ole is massively to blame for a lot of our issues, but our squad is dirt.
Really? I’d swap two players max. I mean even there midfield i’d Only swap Ndidi. If we could swap coaches though that would solve everything.
Nididi, Maddison, Vardy, Tielemans would walk into our team. Obviously their manager is much better, but that goes without saying.
Maddison is not playing over Paul Pogba on any day of the week. Tielemans is good but he’s not much different to McTominay, there would literally be no difference in the two. Vardy would walk into our squad but I doubt any top class manager bar Mourinho would pick him ahead of Martial. So I still don’t see where all these players are. I’d take their left back in our starting line up. So two players at a push.
I'd rather play Vardy than Martial. Better work ethic, better finisher, better injury record too probably. I like Martial, but he's so much more frustrating and annoying than is spoken about on here. I want him to come good and realise his potential though, I'm just very doubtful.
Of course I'd play Pogba over Maddison too but I'm already thinking of us as Pogba-less, just because I don't see him being here next season.
Of course I'd play Pogba over Maddison too but I'm already thinking of us as Pogba-less, just because I don't see him being here next season.
3 wins from 11, 1 win in the last 6 and lost to Palace, West ham, Newcastle and Bournemouth. Sitting 10th in the league already 10 points behind 4th, 18 behind the leaders and 4 behind 5th. Simple stats but ones that show we clearly are now a mid table team. We got rid of Jose so we could get 4th, in the summer our plan was to build back up to challenge for the league in a few seasons. If Ole stays it means our plans have changed, build back up to fight for 4th in a few seasons. We have regressed further since Jose left, play awful football, cannot win or score, poor tactics, average squad and lowered expectations. Ole is not the man, but i cannot think of anyone who is able to replace him. We literally have no choice but to keep him and fight against relegation.
Anything below top 4 was only ever going to be acceptable if we could see a strategy and style of play under Ole....we're still waiting. Unless you count playing shite as a strategy and style of play.
All that talk how Leicester have better squad than us is hilarious.
Gk-DDG
2 cd- Maguire and Lindelof
Left back- no much difference between Shaw and Chilwell. I would maybe even give advantage to Chilwell but it is not that much of difference
Right back- AWB
Midfield- Pogba is class above others. The rest are better what we have, i admit that. But we have more depth.
Lw- Rashford
Rw- James
Striker- Martial or Vardi? I would say 50:50.
Nevertheless, even if someone thinks that they have better squad it is 55%-45% max. It is not like they have far better squad loaded with world class players.
Both managers had the same time on the bench. Leicester is flying, playing good football and signature of their coach is visible from the space. Our football and our game plan is dire. It is all about manager guys, only about manager and nothing else
Gk-DDG
2 cd- Maguire and Lindelof
Left back- no much difference between Shaw and Chilwell. I would maybe even give advantage to Chilwell but it is not that much of difference
Right back- AWB
Midfield- Pogba is class above others. The rest are better what we have, i admit that. But we have more depth.
Lw- Rashford
Rw- James
Striker- Martial or Vardi? I would say 50:50.
Nevertheless, even if someone thinks that they have better squad it is 55%-45% max. It is not like they have far better squad loaded with world class players.
Both managers had the same time on the bench. Leicester is flying, playing good football and signature of their coach is visible from the space. Our football and our game plan is dire. It is all about manager guys, only about manager and nothing else
Martial does not belong in the same conversation as Vardy and Ndidi would be our best midfielder not named Pogba. Tielemans is better than Fred or Andreas and would have been a welcome addition in the summer. I agree about Maddison not being near Pogba yet but in the case he is sold he would walk right into the 11. Chilwell and Ricardo Pereira are at least equal to our full backs (if not better).
So yeah, Vardy, Ndidi, Tielemans, Chilwell, Pereira would all be starting regularly for us and so would Maddison in a world without Pogba.
Squad and best 11 are two different things. Leicester get their best 11 on the pitch pretty much every week so us having a better squad (depth) becomes irrelevant.
- De Gea has no effect on how the team plays. He's not even doing particularly well at the only job he has.
- Lindelof is terrible.
- Chilwell is better than Shaw it's not even close. Even just for the fact that he actually plays.
- Pereira is better in attack, AWB better in defence.
- Pogba isn't playing so whether he is the best player is irrelevant right now.
- Even if he was Leicester's midfield 3 is still significantly better.
- Vardy is a proven prolific PL striker, we don't have one. Martial is very good at his best, he's also has missed most of the season.
- James vs Perez/Barnes is debatable.
So no its not 'all about the manager and nothing else'.
I feel like if half of those players were in our team we'd say how we preferred others. Playing on a winning team makes players look better. We just spent the last 10 or so months drooling over Maguire and now that he's here it's like "meh Leicester still has a better team".
Not being funny.. but comparing Vardy to Martial would be like comparing Kevin Phillips to Louis Saha.. we all know who’s the better player.
Tielemans maybe better than Fred but that’s not the point. He would add to good squad deep but when picking a starting XI. I don’t see how he is an automatic starter over McTominay. So including Pogba that’s two United midfielders plus Ndidi. So we out number Leicester again.
Best way to look at it. If you had both teams and had to choose players to play in a Champions League final who makes the cut?
Ole says he is building a new team, but should we really be below a team who were in division one two years ago ?
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It buttresses the point that Ole should be doing better when you look at it objectively. Before Rodgers came in we have consistently and comfortably finished ahead of Leicester bar that one freak season. We forget that players look good in good systems and under good managers, I still remember that many teams got their fingers burnt after signing Klopp's Dortmund players and finding they aren't that good but having watched them being sensational in Klopp's system. If we had a better manager the worth of some of our players would be upped.
Martial is not that good and I'm tired of pretending he is, I wish he was half the player he is on this site. He has shown next to nothing at this level for all his promise. Vardy has consitently hit double digits in the league for 5 seasons running, scoring 20 or more twice, one season with 18 and after 11 games played this season is on 10 goals. Martial's highest PL tally is 11 and that was his first season here. Vardy is a great striker and Martial while potentially great is not on his level. In a final I would absolutely rather have Vardy than Martial, he is a big game player and has tormented the defences of top teams time after time.
I like Scott, but he's not all that yet. A midfield of McT, Ndidi and Pogba would still leave us with only Pogba who can create and pass to a high level. Tielemans would give us more creativity and control on the ball. The way I see it, in our current set up Ndidi takes over from Scott and Tielemans gets in over Fred. In games where we want to be more defensive though there is merit to your claim.
That said Leicester's players are better coached than ours and maybe more could be gotten out of them, but after watching these guys let the club down year after year I don't really think that these are just some misunderstood and untapped potential superstars.
This is just not true.
Martial's hype is so based on potential its insane. Aye on paper and in theory he's world class, but he's not even close in reality. 24 this year, he's obviously not old, but people go on like he's 20 years old still.
TBF Saha and Martial are not even similar players. Its not entirely outlandish to say Vardy would thrive in our counter-attacking set up. Vardy's big game record means that he easily gets ahead of Martial in Cl final. When's the last time Martial actually showed up in a big game?
What's Martial's scoring record against the big 6? We know Rashford's is excellent. But its not really spoken about what his is like. I remember the debut goal against Liverpool.
9 goals in 27 appearances
When you say let us down year after year? Who and when? We’ve only been let down for like 6 months is you take away Ole’s new manager bounce run.
You’re not pretending he’s just that good. He gets a lot of injuries and plays under an underperforming team who now don’t create chances but he’s a miles better footballer than Jamie Vardy. I mean Sergio Aguero would look average and inconsistent playing for is.
Fair enough. Can’t knock your opinion even though I disagree but it’s not like Vardy isn’t levels. I just wouldn’t want to be starting him over Martial in a game against say Real Madrid.
You wouldn't take Maddison?
As a squad player of course. But I was talking about in a first XI. I’d be picking Pogba every day of the week.
Since Fergie we’ve only been let down for the past six months? Bloody hell.
Martial would do well to be as good as Vardy, he’s been performing well for years in the premier league.
why not play them both..
--------------------McT-----------------------
--------Maddison-----------Pogba----------
Or---
------------McT-----------Pogba--------------
-----------------Maddison----------------------
We'd be massively overrun. Might work against relegation fodder.
If anyone said Leicester had a better squad than us before the season started they would have gotten laughed at here. I certainly didn't see many predictions about them finishing above us either.
It's amazing people can claim Leicester are the better team but still not realize the main reason why that's the case. Very telling that even those against the sack don't really think Ole is capable of making his team perform better than the sum of its parts. Instead, he needs more money and more transfer windows even though we're performing worse than anyone predicted and worse than under all our managers who failed.
It's amazing people can claim Leicester are the better team but still not realize the main reason why that's the case. Very telling that even those against the sack don't really think Ole is capable of making his team perform better than the sum of its parts. Instead, he needs more money and more transfer windows even though we're performing worse than anyone predicted and worse than under all our managers who failed.
Well playing 2 DM's and being overly defensive hasn't helped either. Let them off the leash a bit! McT and Fred, or Mct and Pogba have done well against the big teams in a 2, if we had a decent no.10 maybe we wouldn't look so sh1t.
The current squad is a mishmash of players recruited under five different managers - for vastly different reasons. It’s a reflection of the Woodward era, where the policy seemingly has been to pick the first and best manager’s name off a list - and hope for the best. Rather than assessing the playing staff and pick the next guy based - at least to some extent - on his ability to work well with said group. The idea seems to have been that we have money, so we can afford to let the manager pick his own players (like Fergie did) - we don’t need to hire someone whose “philosophy" actually jibes more or less with what’s already in place. In other words, a short-term and frankly idiotic idea or approach.
And this isn’t, as some think - or at least pretend to think - a silly excuse or a convenient cop-out for apologists (of the sitting manager - the ”feck this rebuild thing, it shouldn’t take more than five minutes” brigade have been around since Moyes). It’s a very real factor to consider. And it partly* explains why LVG and Mourinho, managers with vast experience and first rate CVs, ended up looking utterly lost at United.
Ole has done very little to convince me of his coaching prowess. I had hoped to see something in the way he sets up the team by now - something tangible, something evident, something recurring and undeniable. I haven’t seen that. It certainly hasn’t been all bad, better than the most relentless moaners on here claim, and there have been mitigating factors. But then that’s nearly always the case. And the old “if it walks like a duck” take on things can’t be dismissed entirely. At least I don’t dismiss it.
But for me it’s clearer than ever that what United need, what we absolutely have to implement properly, is a long-term strategy. What happens short-term is of minor importance by comparison. Sack him now - sure, in terms of what United should be, he deserves it. But the “it’s what top teams do” argument is faulty for a very obvious, if very painful to acknowledge, reason: we aren’t anywhere near being a top team in anything but name (and bank balance). The primary task of the manager - and those employing him, ultimately - is to take steps to get back to a position where it once again becomes natural to “act like a top team”. Not to play great football with ditto results at this point in time. That is not a realistic standard to hold the manager to. Everyone and his granny - unless they’re extremely unrealistic, or blinkered - realizes that both our squad and our starting XI are in need of several (perhaps numerous) upgrades before we can reasonably expect the manager to just send out a team to dispose easily of “lesser” opponents.
Sack Ole - yes, again, sure: but what do you want? A new manager who can squeeze a little bit more out of the current squad? Pointless, I would say. The long-term is alpha and omega. Sacking Ole would have to be done under the following conditions:
a) there is a plan and he isn’t following it (unlikely).
b) there is a plan, Ole is following it, but he simply can’t cut it in the dugout: he’s inept, or he’s lost the players. So, we hire an interim to take care of things until a suitable permanent replacement can be found.
c) there is a plan, Ole is doing his best (or not, for that matter) but a better manager, one who suits us long-term, has become available.
Sacking him for any other reason makes no sense to me. If there is no plan we should prioritize, and right feckin’ sharply too, sorting that part out before we hire anyone else in any capacity.
Key point: crying out for Ole to be sacked because we aren’t playing very well on a regular basis, or aren’t amassing points in a way befitting the United we all want to see, is - frankly - bollocks: it’s not a relevant argument, and replacing him with “anyone” would be just another appointment in a directionless series overseen by Woodward. The only possible upside to such a decision would be premised on the fantastical notion pushed by some of our fans, i.e. that what “top clubs” do is to, simply, hire and fire blindly until the right man finally comes along: an idea which fails, completely, to take relevant particulars into consideration: the nature of post-SAF United on the whole (the structure of the operation), the nature of our current squad, the nature of the Premier League (compared to the leagues the likes of Barca and Bayern play in) - and so forth.
* That’s right, I said partly - before anyone says that they were both over the hill. They may have been but that doesn’t explain it fully. LVG and Mourinho didn’t fail to win leagues at United, nor did they fail to challenge for leagues - they failed to make us look like anything like a plausible challenger.
And this isn’t, as some think - or at least pretend to think - a silly excuse or a convenient cop-out for apologists (of the sitting manager - the ”feck this rebuild thing, it shouldn’t take more than five minutes” brigade have been around since Moyes). It’s a very real factor to consider. And it partly* explains why LVG and Mourinho, managers with vast experience and first rate CVs, ended up looking utterly lost at United.
Ole has done very little to convince me of his coaching prowess. I had hoped to see something in the way he sets up the team by now - something tangible, something evident, something recurring and undeniable. I haven’t seen that. It certainly hasn’t been all bad, better than the most relentless moaners on here claim, and there have been mitigating factors. But then that’s nearly always the case. And the old “if it walks like a duck” take on things can’t be dismissed entirely. At least I don’t dismiss it.
But for me it’s clearer than ever that what United need, what we absolutely have to implement properly, is a long-term strategy. What happens short-term is of minor importance by comparison. Sack him now - sure, in terms of what United should be, he deserves it. But the “it’s what top teams do” argument is faulty for a very obvious, if very painful to acknowledge, reason: we aren’t anywhere near being a top team in anything but name (and bank balance). The primary task of the manager - and those employing him, ultimately - is to take steps to get back to a position where it once again becomes natural to “act like a top team”. Not to play great football with ditto results at this point in time. That is not a realistic standard to hold the manager to. Everyone and his granny - unless they’re extremely unrealistic, or blinkered - realizes that both our squad and our starting XI are in need of several (perhaps numerous) upgrades before we can reasonably expect the manager to just send out a team to dispose easily of “lesser” opponents.
Sack Ole - yes, again, sure: but what do you want? A new manager who can squeeze a little bit more out of the current squad? Pointless, I would say. The long-term is alpha and omega. Sacking Ole would have to be done under the following conditions:
a) there is a plan and he isn’t following it (unlikely).
b) there is a plan, Ole is following it, but he simply can’t cut it in the dugout: he’s inept, or he’s lost the players. So, we hire an interim to take care of things until a suitable permanent replacement can be found.
c) there is a plan, Ole is doing his best (or not, for that matter) but a better manager, one who suits us long-term, has become available.
Sacking him for any other reason makes no sense to me. If there is no plan we should prioritize, and right feckin’ sharply too, sorting that part out before we hire anyone else in any capacity.
Key point: crying out for Ole to be sacked because we aren’t playing very well on a regular basis, or aren’t amassing points in a way befitting the United we all want to see, is - frankly - bollocks: it’s not a relevant argument, and replacing him with “anyone” would be just another appointment in a directionless series overseen by Woodward. The only possible upside to such a decision would be premised on the fantastical notion pushed by some of our fans, i.e. that what “top clubs” do is to, simply, hire and fire blindly until the right man finally comes along: an idea which fails, completely, to take relevant particulars into consideration: the nature of post-SAF United on the whole (the structure of the operation), the nature of our current squad, the nature of the Premier League (compared to the leagues the likes of Barca and Bayern play in) - and so forth.
* That’s right, I said partly - before anyone says that they were both over the hill. They may have been but that doesn’t explain it fully. LVG and Mourinho didn’t fail to win leagues at United, nor did they fail to challenge for leagues - they failed to make us look like anything like a plausible challenger.
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