Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[el3mel]

It's not really a double standard, though - based on what we know (or think we know, at least) about United's infamous "structure".

The manager at United is ultimately responsible for recruitment (we don't have a director of football). So, we give him credit for good signings and the opposite for bad ones. As far as we know, there is no other figure at United beyond the manager who is ultimately responsible for identifying targets and sanctioning them from a football perspective.

Woodward sanctions all deals from a money perspective - and he is also ultimately responsible for negotiations (doesn't mean he negotiates the deals himself - but the people who do, do so on his watch).

So, yeah - in theory you could say well done to Ole for identifying Sancho as a target for United - and feck you to Ed for failing to sign him. However - a more or less rational/reasonable person wouldn't do that without being privy to details: firstly, it hardly takes a genius to target Sancho - and secondly there could be multiple very good reasons for why that particular move/deal simply wasn't feasible this time around.

Bottom line, though - there is no double standard. United bought Bruno. Who ultimately sanctioned that decision on the football side? Well, has to be Ole - who else? Who failed to land a deal for Sancho (we assume he was wanted by Ole)? Well, has to be Ed - who else?

This is fair, but it's not really what happens though. For example, I remember talking to someone here who was blaming Woodward for signing Daniel James and refusing to think it was the manager's signing, but the club's one, as if Woodward is following Championship or something. This happens all the time. Good business is for the one people support and bad business is on whoever we're against. It's a double standards for many here. Maybe not for you, but for many others.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It's not really a double standard, though - based on what we know (or think we know, at least) about United's infamous "structure".

The manager at United is ultimately responsible for recruitment (we don't have a director of football). So, we give him credit for good signings and the opposite for bad ones. As far as we know, there is no other figure at United beyond the manager who is ultimately responsible for identifying targets and sanctioning them from a football perspective.

Woodward sanctions all deals from a money perspective - and he is also ultimately responsible for negotiations (doesn't mean he negotiates the deals himself - but the people who do, do so on his watch).

So, yeah - in theory you could say well done to Ole for identifying Sancho as a target for United - and feck you to Ed for failing to sign him. However - a more or less rational/reasonable person wouldn't do that without being privy to details: firstly, it hardly takes a genius to target Sancho - and secondly there could be multiple very good reasons for why that particular move/deal simply wasn't feasible this time around.

Bottom line, though - there is no double standard. United bought Bruno. Who ultimately sanctioned that decision on the football side? Well, has to be Ole - who else? Who failed to land a deal for Sancho (we assume he was wanted by Ole)? Well, has to be Ed - who else?

Been made public by club and Ole himself (and by Mourinho’s meldown) that Ed deals with the budget only.
There is a transfer board for purchases, of which Ole is part of. They have a veto on Ole (to prevent the kind of thing Mourinho was trying after season 2), and he has a veto on them.

If Ole really didn’t want VDB for example, and I imagine he wasn’t super keen, he could’ve vetoed it as it seems now it was clearly a move put forward by our chief scout or someone else on the transfer board. Obviously they want to work together though so I imagine no-one wants to use their veto if possible.

I think we can all agree now that Sancho at 120m was rightly rejected by Ed.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

No-one seems to give a shit about stats at the moment, it's more about "feels".

I’ll give you some stats Tiger...

• We’ve lost 1 game of every 3 we have played this season.
• We’ve won 1 home league game
• We’ve scored 1 non penalty goal at home in the league
• We’re 8th, 3 points ahead of Newcastle in 12th
• If we win our game in hand we’re having as good as season so far as Southampton

oh, and we got dumped out of the Champions League at the group stage, and our manager is pleased we can even give Leipzig, City & PsG a game.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

This is fair, but it's not really what happens though. For example, I remember talking to someone here who was blaming Woodward for signing Daniel James and refusing to think it was the manager's signing, but the club's one, as if Woodwars is following Championship or something. This happens all the time. Good business is for the one people support and bad business is on whoever we're against. It's a double standards for many here. Maybe not for you, but for many others.

Yes - but the idea that Woodward is playing DOF (as in - he's actually making decisions regarding who we should, and should not, sign) is largely unfounded: some would even call it a conspiracy theory.

The actual "structure" at United - as far as anyone knows (and based on comments by Ole himself, one could add) - means that:

The manager is ultimately responsible for player recruitment.

And there you have it.

The manager (and his team - of course - the chief scout, Nicky Butt in his capacity, AMs and whatnot) ultimately performs the role filled by a sporting director or director of football at many other clubs.

The manager is both "head coach" and "DOF" at United.

As far as anyone knows.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think we can all agree now that Sancho at 120m was rightly rejected by Ed.

As a non-football decision - yes, completely agree.

 

[el3mel]

Yes - but the idea that Woodward is playing DOF (as in - he's actually making decisions regarding who we should, and should not, sign) is largely unfounded: some would even call it a conspiracy theory.

The actual "structure" at United - as far as anyone knows (and based on comments by Ole himself, one could add) - means that:

The manager is ultimately responsible for player recruitment.

And there you have it.

The manager (and his team - of course - the chief scout, Nicky Butt in his capacity, AMs and whatnot) ultimately performs the role filled by a sporting director or director of football at many other clubs.

The manager is both "head coach" and "DOF" at United.

As far as anyone knows.

I'm just only saying if a signing is a success, you should give credit for both the manager and Woodward, and if it flops, it's on both as well. Woodward still has the ultimate call and if he doesn't like the manager's choice he can call it off and the manager can't complain (and Woodward did that previously). If Woodward sanctions a deal then he also thinks it's a good player and agrees with the manager on his views, hence he should also get credit for them, like Bruno signing, similar to Ole, and of course vice versa.

 

[RedTiger]

oh, and we got dumped out of the Champions League at the group stage, and our manager is pleased we can even give Leipzig, City & PsG a game.

The majority here thought we'd finish 3rd when the draw was made. People can be bias with stats, you didn't mention the one where we have had our best away form for donkeys years.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

people can be bias with stats

That was the point.

“best in last 5” is stupid bollocks.

 

[justsomebloke]

I’ll give you some stats Tiger...

• We’ve lost 1 game of every 3 we have played this season.
• We’ve won 1 home league game
• We’ve scored 1 non penalty goal at home in the league
• We’re 8th, 3 points ahead of Newcastle in 12th
• If we win our game in hand we’re having as good as season so far as Southampton

oh, and we got dumped out of the Champions League at the group stage, and our manager is pleased we can even give Leipzig, City & PsG a game.

Oh, do please at least try, would you?

 

[Bobcat]

This is it. You can be Ole out or Ole in, there are arguments to both.

These are those Paul Ince comments "anyone can do that job" from fans because he doesn't come out and throw players under the bus.

People want Poch but he has not achieved anything more than Ole has. I am not against Poch but to say he is our saviour seems a bit far fetched to me.

It is clear to see the players are playing for the manager, whether we like it or not, it is the fans who are trying to create this divide.

People criticise him for drawing 0-0 with Man City yet they say he is no where near the level Pep is, well isnt that a good point at home then?

But its "City didnt play well" well whos fault is that then? The manager? So pep?

Again evidence that the elite of the elite managers can get things wrong?

An elite manager is playing 2 DM's yet when we play 2 DM's there is uproar about it. If we played 1 DM and lost 2/3-0 there is no coaching in this team?

It has come to a point unless Ole wins games 4-0 with 20 shots on goal, 80% possession, 0 shots against, there will be people questioning every decision.

If you can criticise a manager for being naive like we were against Leipzig, credit should be given when he does get it right. All I am saying is same energy should apply.

Great post. If everyone were this sensible this thread would not be such a shithole.

I have no problem with people wanting him out. What bothers me are the obvious double standards.

People will claim we have a great squad capable of challenging for the league, yet give Ole no credit for getting them there. Did he inherit a team of ready made league winners?

His signings have been shit/average/obvious yet AWB and Maguire are statistically the best CB and fullback in the club. Bruno is our best signing in a decade

If he lines up with two Fred and Scott hes a coward, if he doesnt hes naive. If we lose hes clueless, if we win its induvidual brilliance.

Other clubs are great and masterfully coached and set up. Unless when we play them, then they're shit

I wonder if the same standards will be applied to the next manager

 

[justsomebloke]

Yes - but the idea that Woodward is playing DOF (as in - he's actually making decisions regarding who we should, and should not, sign) is largely unfounded: some would even call it a conspiracy theory.

The actual "structure" at United - as far as anyone knows (and based on comments by Ole himself, one could add) - means that:

The manager is ultimately responsible for player recruitment.

And there you have it.

The manager (and his team - of course - the chief scout, Nicky Butt in his capacity, AMs and whatnot) ultimately performs the role filled by a sporting director or director of football at many other clubs.

The manager is both "head coach" and "DOF" at United.

As far as anyone knows.

Er, no. He isn't. He can veto someone from coming in. He can't decide to bring someone in if the rest of the transfer board doesn't agree. And crucially, he doesn't handle negotiations, or decide how much we are prepared to pay for a player, or what price to demand for a player.

You can hold him to account for the fact that the players who are brought in are brought in. Don't think Daniel James should have been bought? Fine, Solskjær can be blamed for that.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

If Woodward sanctions a deal then he also thinks it's a good player and agrees with the manager on his views, hence he should also get credit for them, like Bruno signing, similar to Ole, and of course vice versa.

According to Ole, he works more closely with Ed than previous managers - we can believe that or not, and/or discuss precisely what it means.

But yes - of course - if Woodward goes along with a signing the manager wants, and that signing turns out to be a success, then I suppose we should give ol' Ed some credit for that. How much is very much debatable, though, if all he does is to say "yes" or "no" based on how much money is available at any given time.

Anyway - we should hire a DOF.

That's the bottom line.

Let someone beyond the manager be responsible for recruitment and overall "philosophy". Let that person answer to Ed. And let the manager (what we call "manager" now) worry about training and team selection.

 

[Gator Nate]

Other clubs are great and masterfully coached and set up. Unless when we play them, then they're shit

Every. Single. Win. Gets old really.

 

[Giggsy13]

I dont think so. You don't suddenly become world-class at 26. I'd never heard of him until last summer. He's been fantastic for 8 months for us so far, still has a lot to do to become world class.

OR the more likely scenario is that he’s been world class for a few years but Europe failed to notice or appreciate him because of patchy start to his career.

Cant believe a bloody troll (not you)has triggered such a pointless discussion. That’s why we can’t have nice things.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Er, no. He isn't. He can veto someone from coming in. He can't decide to bring someone in if the rest of the transfer board doesn't agree. And crucially, he doesn't handle negotiations, or decide how much we are prepared to pay for a player, or what price to demand for a player.

You can hold him to account for the fact that the players who are brought in are brought in. Don't think Daniel James should have been bought? Fine, Solskjær can be blamed for that.

Don't understand what you're arguing against. Of course Ole can be blamed for James - in the sense that he could have refused to sign him.

The manager is ultimately responsible for player recruitment at United. He may be vetoed on individual players by this "transfer board" - and he, himself, can veto individual players he absolutely doesn't want. But he's the ultimate authority. He has nobody between himself and Woodward. The shape of the squad is down to him in terms of "vision" and "philosophy".

 

[Anustart89]

What I find really annoying about those wanting to wait and see 'til the end of season if we've progressed is that they don't seem to be judging 'improvement' by the performances of Manchester United. They need to see how all the other 19 clubs do before they can judge whether Manchester United as a football team has progressed.

What my eyes are telling me is that I don't see us becoming a more cohesive unit as time goes by under Ole's management. We have the same strengths and weaknesses as we did after the interim period (and we've regressed against the top 6 clubs, if anything). None of the players are making any obvious sustained leaps in terms of quality under his management, and while we may be there or thereabouts in terms of league position ("if we win the game in hand then..."), a lot of the points gained during the end of last season and this season have been thanks to individual quality of some players. We should've been beaten by Brighton due to the same defensive mistakes that the same players have been doing since they signed for us (AWB losing his man far post for example), but were saved by a last second penalty. We needed a penalty to scrape past WBA, and have been looking very unmotivated as a side, which is especially bad when the coach's main quality is supposed to be his man management and motivation skills.

If you need to see the table at the end of the season to decide if that is good enough for you, then obviously nothing will matter until the 38 games are played. But at least then people should be honest about that rather than saying that there is definite improvement in players/style/fitness/hunger/etc.

 

[90 + 5min]

I used that examples to say that you don't have guarantees in football for anything. So that excuse is not valid for me. You replace what you think that it is not good and try to pick good replacement. Will you do that right, it is a gamble of course.
Ole is not good. So he needs to be replaced no matter what. Will we hire good manager that is another topic.

And yes, i am very very happy with our squad and that is why i want him gone. This squad is loaded with good players and need to play much better than it is playing right now. And playing defensive against teams like Arsenal and Leipzig was last straw for me.
And to be clear; i don't demand title. But title challenge is a must and better manager would give us that. Solskjaer will not.

Isn't 5 points (in best case 2 points) behind leaders kind of title challenge? Right now that is. If not then ManCity are not challenging this year because they are even further down? Right?

I think lot of Solskjaer out supporters don't like him because he isn't "cool" enough. He dosen't tick all those cool guy boxes.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

“Blaming” him for Dan James would be silly though, as it was a cheap signing that some people on that board obviously thought was worth it. Not sure why Ole would want to undermine them on such a signing, no point, gotta trust them.
If they were suggesting Nicolas Pepe at 70m, you’d absolutely expect him to veto that shit and blame him for not doing so. My guess is the other right winger targets were vetoed by Ole or someone else on the board.

 

[90 + 5min]

I’ll give you some stats Tiger...

• We’ve lost 1 game of every 3 we have played this season.
• We’ve won 1 home league game
• We’ve scored 1 non penalty goal at home in the league
• We’re 8th, 3 points ahead of Newcastle in 12th
• If we win our game in hand we’re having as good as season so far as Southampton

oh, and we got dumped out of the Champions League at the group stage, and our manager is pleased we can even give Leipzig, City & PsG a game.

• We’ve won more then 50% of games we have played this season.
• We’ve won every league away game. Most of any team.
• We’ve scored 16 goals away in the league. Most of any team
• We’re 8th, 5 points behind 1th place
• If we win our game in hand we’re having almost as good season as last year champions.

How stats can be written to suit agenda.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

He's a big reason why this squad is seen in that light though. You can't just say that this squad is great and ignore his role in said squad's development, or that Ole doesn't deserve to have a job or manage a group of players like this, when he's a big part of why they are seen in this light.

Cast your mind back when Ole let go of Lukaku, Sanchez, and Smalling et al (and was forced to let go of Herrera) without getting replacements in for at least half of them. The risk that he took in putting his faith in to some of the players I mention below was massive, and the fact that it paid off is something Ole and the players have never really got their due credit for.

Fred and McTominay were seen as jokes, Martial and Rashford were talented but far from being guaranteed sure things, Shaw was a write off. He brought in Maguire and AWB to improve the defence which was midtable quality the season before, and above all else, he brought Bruno in to the team. He brought through Greenwood and Williams from the academy, and will continue to bring through the best possible kids in to the team - not just paying lip service to it like Jose did before him, or like Lampard did the moment he was able to spend some money.

Just look at the improvements made by some of those I listed. Martial and Rashford almost doubled their previous best goals returns that season. Greenwood equalled Best, Rooney and Kidd as a teenage Utd striker in his first season. Fred went from a joke figure, to actually being one of our most important players (a far cry from when I made a thread proposing exactly that at the start of last season and being lambasted for it). These things don't happen in a vacuum, and Ole has played a big role in them happening.

Now, I'm more than open to the idea that Ole in the long-term might very well not be up to it and might not be the man who wins us #21 or #4, but for me, I want him to at least be given a chance to succeed or fail on that metric (as long as he attains the base level of a top 4 finish). That means bringing in the players he wants on time, rather than either a) getting them 6/12 months late and almost fecking up our season in the process (Bruno, the long hoped for Lukaku replacement), or b) not bringing any of them in at all (Grealish, Sancho et al). Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case during Ole's time at the club (while Jose and LvG were able to squander the vast sums they were given).

Give him a full squad (i.e. bring in a starting calibre RW, DM, CB, and ST) and see where we land is all I ask. If we're still in a dog fight for top 4 after those incomings, then we will have to accept that it hasn't worked out and wish him all the best, but right now, I do think he did a fantastic job last season, and decent job this season, all things considered. And irrespective of what happens next, the next man in (if Ole doesn't work out) will have a far, far better and coherent playing squad to deploy than what the previous managers had been left with, Ole included.

Why not let Diallo have the chance to become a great RW. Same applies to Mc T, Tuanzebe and Greenwood. Why do our players not deserve the same chance you want to give our manager.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

How stats can be written to suit agenda.

which was the point.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Since we all love comparing Ole to Klopp and talking about how Ole is on a similar trajectory, in Klopp's second full season Liverpool got 4th and a CL final after spending 252m. Given Ole has spent 309m should we measure if we are progressing well enough under him by whether or not we achieve something similar to what Klopp did in his second season or is it time to stop with the comparisons?

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

The simple fact is that he'd be cut way more slack if he'd come in as some hip and upcoming manager that no one had really heard of, but it's just Ole so he's and easy target, we are doing ok, and imo people should be careful what they wish for, things could be (and have been) alot worse under this regime.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

The simple fact is that he'd be cut way more slack if he'd come in as some hip and upcoming manager that no one had really heard of, but it's just Ole so he's and easy target, we are doing ok, and imo people should be careful what they wish for, things could be (and have been) alot worse under this regime.

Like Gary said we win in moments or via counterattack. If we had similar results but dominated and controlled matches instead of our conservative approach, Ole would get a lot more slack.
You are forgetting this forum destroyed Jose, LVG and Moyes way more.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Isn't 5 points (in best case 2 points) behind leaders kind of title challenge? Right now that is. If not then ManCity are not challenging this year because they are even further down? Right?

I think lot of Solskjaer out supporters don't like him because he isn't "cool" enough. He dosen't tick all those cool guy boxes.

Ole out supporters would like nothing better than for him to succeed. If Ole succeeds, United succeeds and that's all that any of us want.

If you're talking about being cool wanting someone like Naglesmann then you're mis using the word.

 

[VP89]

Since we all love comparing Ole to Klopp and talking about how Ole is on a similar trajectory, in Klopp's second full season Liverpool got 4th and a CL final after spending 252m. Given Ole has spent 309m should we measure if we are progressing well enough under him by whether or not we achieve something similar to what Klopp did in his second season or is it time to stop with the comparisons?

Klopp was a title winner before he joined Liverpool, which bought him a lot more goodwill.

Many who doubt Ole such as myself, haven't actually said "let's sack him tomorrow" so a few defensive posters really are jumping the gun here.

 

[Bilbo]

Since we all love comparing Ole to Klopp and talking about how Ole is on a similar trajectory, in Klopp's second full season Liverpool got 4th and a CL final after spending 252m. Given Ole has spent 309m should we measure if we are progressing well enough under him by whether or not we achieve something similar to what Klopp did in his second season or is it time to stop with the comparisons?

It was time to stop with the comparisons a looooong time ago. It won't stop it from happening though

 

[Bobcat]

Why not let Diallo have the chance to become a great RW. Same applies to Mc T, Tuanzebe and Greenwood. Why do our players not deserve the same chance you want to give our manager.

Maybe im daft, but i dont see your point here.

Greenwood and McTomminay have gotten plenty of chances to prove their mettle. Tuanzebe is 21, which is about 16 in CB years. Diallo hasnt even gotten here yet

I dont nesscarily agree that Ole needs four more top class players before we can judge him, but the summer window was a bit of a wasted opportunity imo, and assuming we get 50-70 million for Pogba i think he deserves a couple more signings to see where they takes us

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Like Gary said we win in moments or via counterattack. If we had similar results but dominated and controlled matches instead of our conservative approach, Ole would get a lot more slack.
You are forgetting this forum destroyed Jose, LVG and Moyes way more.

No I'm not, I'm just very aware how unwatchable we were under them, and how change brought very little overall improvment in that department.

The club is run to make money for it's owners, that is the bottom line, and at least Ole has made us worth watching at times, so until things change at the top then I'm quite happy.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Maybe im daft, but i dont see your point here.

Greenwood and McTomminay have gotten plenty of chances to prove their mettle. Tuanzebe is 21, which is about 16 in CB years. Diallo hasnt even gotten here yet

I dont nesscarily agree that Ole needs four more top class players before we can judge him, but the summer window was a bit of a wasted opportunity imo, and assuming we get 50-70 million for Pogba i think he deserves a couple more signings to see where they takes us

The reason we want to update RW, CB, DM and ST is because we think we can do better. We don't want to give the current players time because at this particular moment they are not up to standards for a club of our stature. I just want the club to apply the same logic to everyone at the club including manager and coaches. Every modern club upgrades managers all the time.
Ole has been given plenty of time to prove his mettle too. The number of managers that have been backed as much as Ole since Ole came here can be counted on one hand.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

No I'm not, I'm just very aware how unwatchable we were under them, and how change brought very little overall improvment in that department.

The club is run to make money for it's owners, that is the bottom line, and at least Ole has made us worth watching at times, so until things change at the top then I'm quite happy.

That is a personal preference and is a very fair reason to keep him for people who have the same preference.

 

[Bobcat]

The reason we want to update RW, CB, DM and ST is because we think we can do better. We don't want to give the current players time because at this particular moment they are not up to standards for a club of our stature. I just want the club to apply the same logic to everyone at the club including manager and coaches. Every modern club upgrades managers all the time.
Ole has been given plenty of time to prove his mettle too. The number of managers that have been backed as much as Ole since Ole came here can be counted on one hand.

Apples and oranges really. One group has to kick a ball good while the other leads a pretty complex organization

With a player you can usually spot right away if hes doing a decent job, where as with a manager it can take months and years before their work comes to fruition. Thats why pretty much any evaluation of leadership positions are done by looking at long term results, and not day by day performance.

In terms of net spend hes neck and neck with LVG, and about 160 million less than what Jose was given so its not like hes been given a kings bounty to play with compared to everyone else.

Villa, Arsenal, Spurs and City have also spent about the same or more than Ole since he got here

 

[Zen86]

It definitely did.

Are you saying that RedCafe is a single being with a single opinion, which collectively declared that “the buck stops with the manager”? Because it isn’t, and it didn’t. You’re talking out of your arse as per usual.

 

[el3mel]

Are you saying that RedCafe is a single being with a single opinion, which collectively declared that “the buck stops with the manager”? Because it isn’t, and it didn’t. You’re talking out of your arse as per usual.

First no one forced you to reply on me if you think I'm talking out of my arse, the ignore option is always available, so joke is on you, really. If you think someone inventing things out of his mind why are you talking to him ?

Second yes whenever we opened our mouth about the squad, Woodward or team last few years the response was always "the buck stops with the manager". Feel free to refresh your memories and revisit old threads if you want. This is what happened and what I have seen myself. Not my problem if you want to believe that everyone were attacking Woodward as fiercely as they're now.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Apples and oranges really. One group has to kick a ball good while the other leads a pretty complex organization

With a player you can usually spot right away if hes doing a decent job, where as with a manager it can take months and years before their work comes to fruition. Thats why pretty much any evaluation of leadership positions are done by looking at long term results, and not day by day performance.

In terms of net spend hes neck and neck with LVG, and about 160 million less than what Jose was given so its not like hes been given a kings bounty to play with compared to everyone else.

Villa, Arsenal, Spurs and City have also spent about the same or more than Ole since he got here

After two years I can safely say Ole has two plans:
1) Counterattack any team who plays on the front foot.
2) Rely on individual brilliance to tackle teams playing on the backfoot.
I don't see him changing his fundamental philosophy and don't see this philosophy winning anything.

Net spend is only relevant for the finance side of the club. When Ole sold Lukaku to buy Maguire, it still means we have an 80 million asset at the club which Ole can use. It doesn't mean we got Maguire for free. Last I remember Ole has spent around 260 million and still has 200 million worth of talent from previous managers who he utilizes regularly.

I didn't know Villa, Arsenal and Spurs have spent around 260 million, that is astonishing to me. Also shows how much better off we would be without those leeches (Glazers).

 

[hobbers]

It's the double standards of giving Ole full credit for Bruno signing then continuously slaughtering Woodward for any other terrible business we do that's the problem, actually. By logic Woodward should also be getting credit for landing on Bruno but no, give full praise for this deal for Ole then slaughter Woodward for not bringing Sancho.

It's tough because Woodward has had an absolute shocker in terms of the majority of his football related decision making since he started. His managerial appointments are the worst of those decisions, followed by the ridiculous contract renewals, both far far worse than anything he's done, or not done, on the player recruitment side.

With player signings, he has done some things right and these have actually been the things that are still seen as Ole's greatest successes as manager. Namely the signings (obviously Maguire and AWB are no longer lauded as good signings, but they were to start with) and the clearing out of players.

You also have to give him a bit of credit for not agreeing to spend £120m on Sancho, which could easily have represented almost as bad value for money as Maguire and AWB.

 

[Greck]

It's the double standards of giving Ole full credit for Bruno signing then continuously slaughtering Woodward for any other terrible business we do that's the problem, actually. By logic Woodward should also be getting credit for landing on Bruno but no, give full praise for this deal for Ole then slaughter Woodward for not bringing Sancho.

think our scouts and the whole hierachy did a good job this summer. Saying no to Dortmund's demands and finding Cavani when so many clubs in Europe didn't give him a look was underrated business. Finding alternatives that don't turn out to be flops is something we've been so bad at till recent. Surprised to see the same people calling Woodward a galactico muppet for years bawl their eyes out because we didn't overpay for Sancho

 

[LUC1f3R]

I remember how sleep-inducing we were under earlier managers and how happy I was initially watching the team under OGS. It was more of free flowing football. But lately, tactical ineptitudes of Ole (more obvious with each game) is putting me off. Plus for all of his talk of United way, he plays more defensively. But at the same time, when we do attack it is great to watch. I am not a fan of Ole, but at the same time I disagree with few fans who abuse him.

I do hope to get "Ole in" people's view on few things:

1. With acquisition of AWB and Maguire, I expected our back line to be solid by now. I am not talking about the goals conceded, but about the chances we allowed opponents to have (not finished ones). I feel we are all over the place when a cross comes in to the box (only Maguire actively tries to win all the balls and rest 3 always seems to have a doubt on who should go for it). And we always look vulnerable defending set pieces (zonal marking). Shouldn't Ole have sorted this by now?
2. Why do Ole play Fred-McT as a combination when both can't progress ball further. Not a fan of Pogba (for he has talent but lack the discipline) but why is he not playing VDB along with Fred?
3. Why Shaw over Telles? I know Shaw is defensively better but when we know AWB can't attack, why not try to get Telles attack on the left and overlap with Rashford (AWB can form 3 at the back at that time). Plus Shaw slows down the game too much imo.
4. The substitutions are always late even it can be seen that we need changes?
5. When Ole's initial tactics are not working out or when rival coach make tactical tweeks that works, Ole can't come up with changes fast enough. He makes first changes only at HT (I am not talking about subs in First Half, but tactical changes or advising players...)

 

[Micky Targaryen]

First no one forced you to reply on me if you think I'm talking out of my arse, the ignore option is always available, so joke is on you, really. If you think someone inventing things out of his mind why are you talking to him ?

Second yes whenever we opened our mouth about the squad, Woodward or team last few years the response was always "the buck stops with the manager". Feel free to refresh your memories and revisit old threads if you want. This is what happened and what I have seen myself. Not my problem if you want to believe that everyone were attacking Woodward as fiercely as they're now.

Yeah i definitely agree with you on that. I remembered clearly when I defended Jose's management style and the lacklustre players are more to blame, and I got hit with the old "Buck stops with the manager" chestnut.

Also started this thread, When is it ever the players' fault? and the general consensus seems to be on the manager too.

 

[Bobcat]

After two years I can safely say Ole has two plans:
1) Counterattack any team who plays on the front foot.
2) Rely on individual brilliance to tackle teams playing on the backfoot.
I don't see him changing his fundamental philosophy and don't see this philosophy winning anything.

Net spend is only relevant for the finance side of the club. When Ole sold Lukaku to buy Maguire, it still means we have an 80 million asset at the club which Ole can use. It doesn't mean we got Maguire for free. Last I remember Ole has spent around 260 million and still has 200 million worth of talent from previous managers who he utilizes regularly.

I didn't know Villa, Arsenal and Spurs have spent around 260 million, that is astonishing to me. Also shows how much better off we would be without those leeches (Glazers).

Regarding out style that is basically what every team does. Parked busses are hard to deal with, thats why teams bother with it. I agree that we can get better at breaking them down, but imo every parked buss in history has been beaten by good attacking play or "individual brilliance" in some capacity, a clever pass that opens up space or a dribble that gives a player room to shoot

I'd say net spend is more relevant than simply spend, because the former takes into account that you lost a good player, while the latter does not.

Yeah, about those numbers, i looked at this site, they say they got it from tranfermarkt (like everyone else) but i looked at it again and something does not add up there with us. Did they not include Bruno?