Workrate

In Rainbows said:
That's true, but his single running performance is better than any single United performance that there is data for (since 2019). The best of any PL player this season too.
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If you mean Hannibal it doesn't surprise me that much. He's almost Park like with his work rate.

I don't think it solves a team issue as if everyone's fit and available he probably isn't going to start. Not that I think we're a lazy team without him but there are others who are often too slow to react to pressing situations or can't seem to keep it up for most of the game. I don't think its realistic to press the way Ten Hag wants for a full 90, but we still need to get better at doing it for longer spells than we do, and doing it as a unit rather than a couple of players press and then the third/fourth player appears about 10 yards behind after the opposition have already played straight into the space.

Its not just work rate its being effective with it. The clip in here of Garnacho and Hannibal chasing back I don't really like as yes they are busting a gut to get back, but once you're behind the ball its too late to effect anything and is desperation instead. Either one of them or someone else should have been on the guy who turns with the ball.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Athletic have an article on pressing styes of all othe teams in the prem and basically United have won the ball back in the final third than any team so far. Which is something I knew and it just a shame we havent created or scored much from the turn overs.

https://theathletic.com/4904325/2023/09/28/premier-league-pressing/?source=user_shared_article
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It's one of the things we are trying to do well. You can say we've been occasionally unlucky with the chances missed and that this will eventually improve over time and as we become a better side. The worrying part, in regard to the effort we put in to press high, is that, thus far, it doesn't translate into any kind of dominance in the attacking half. There's only one zone in the attacking half where we manage to have more touches than the opposition, and that is on the right side and away from the box. On the other hand, we are clearly losing many battles in our half of the pitch in the wide areas where we usually take risks with our positioning. We still look like a counter-attacking side that's trying to step outside its comfort zone. Hopefully, we'll improve.
 
Hojlund
Bruno
Antony
Mount
Amrabat
(Hannibal)

The core of ETH's first-choice midfield and forward line is now really healthy on the work-rate front.

This should allow Casemiro in particular to not need to run like mad, allowing him to do all his other good stuff.

Rashford has less excuse because he's more than capable of both pressing with discipline and being our key threat. No-one is saying he needs to cover ground like Amrabat, but he does need to be less selective about when he will and won't run. He can start to get choosy when he's 29, not 25.

[Caveat because I refuse to be part of this forum's pattern of relentlessly slagging off our best players: I'm only critiquing Rashford's work rate this season. Otherwise he's been fine. Not spectacular, but fine, especially given the injury-ravaged line-ups he's been part of. He doesn't deserve even half the abuse he's getting.]
 
Brightonian said:
Hojlund
Bruno
Antony
Mount
Amrabat
(Hannibal)

The core of ETH's first-choice midfield and forward line is now really healthy on the work-rate front.

This should allow Casemiro in particular to not need to run like mad, allowing him to do all his other good stuff.

Rashford has less excuse because he's more than capable of both pressing with discipline and being our key threat. No-one is saying he needs to cover ground like Amrabat, but he does need to be less selective about when he will and won't run. He can start to get choosy when he's 29, not 25.

[Caveat because I refuse to be part of this forum's pattern of relentlessly slagging off our best players: I'm only critiquing Rashford's work rate this season. Otherwise he's been fine. Not spectacular, but fine, especially given the injury-ravaged line-ups he's been part of. He doesn't deserve even half the abuse he's getting.]
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If Salah and Saka can play as wide forwards and not cause issues for their midfield and defense, then no reason Rashford can't. Let's see now that there's more legs in midfield.
 
mav_9me said:
If Salah and Saka can play as wide forwards and not cause issues for their midfield and defense, then no reason Rashford can't. Let's see now that there's more legs in midfield.
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Yep agreed. Although again, I don't think it's as if he's downed tools or completely stopped running as some are claiming. He's still running some, and pressing some. Just not consistently enough, and yes with moments of unproductive body language (mostly directed, I think, at a perception of not getting decisions from refs, which he does need to get over.)

Once most of the players I listed are starting together with him, he'll have no choice but to up his work-rate or stand out like a sore thumb. Everyone was at it against Palace, and they all kept each other energised.
 
Brightonian said:
Hojlund
Bruno
Antony
Mount
Amrabat
(Hannibal)

The core of ETH's first-choice midfield and forward line is now really healthy on the work-rate front.

This should allow Casemiro in particular to not need to run like mad, allowing him to do all his other good stuff.

Rashford has less excuse because he's more than capable of both pressing with discipline and being our key threat. No-one is saying he needs to cover ground like Amrabat, but he does need to be less selective about when he will and won't run. He can start to get choosy when he's 29, not 25.

[Caveat because I refuse to be part of this forum's pattern of relentlessly slagging off our best players: I'm only critiquing Rashford's work rate this season. Otherwise he's been fine. Not spectacular, but fine, especially given the injury-ravaged line-ups he's been part of. He doesn't deserve even half the abuse he's getting.]
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He gets abuser because his work rate is bad, something which you agree so not sure why you feel to say what you said.
 
RedStarUnited said:
He gets abuser because his work rate is bad, something which you agree so not sure why you feel to say what you said.
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You don't have to look hard to find people abusing him for every single aspect of his performance, actually. I'm pointing out that his work-rate can justifiably be criticised, albeit with moderation. But that much of the other criticism is unfair or overly harsh.
 
Brightonian said:
You don't have to look hard to find people abusing him for every single aspect of his performance, actually. I'm pointing out that his work-rate can justifiably be criticised, albeit with moderation. But that much of the other criticism is unfair or overly harsh.
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I also agree that Rashford gets overly abused in general but the work rate issue does highlight this more so. People tend to assume it’s about attitude and him not caring which I don’t agree with. He was lauded in fact for carrying the team-a couple seasons ago.

I don’t think he is a natural presser, similar to Martial, and sometimes this is a concentration issue for me rather than him being lazy. Purely speculation, but I believe he can get in his-own head sometimes which affects said concentration. However when he is more confident, he is still one of our best players.
 
Borninthe80ts said:
I also agree that Rashford gets overly abused in general but the work rate issue does highlight this more so. People tend to assume it’s about attitude and him not caring which I don’t agree with. He was lauded in fact for carrying the team-a couple seasons ago.

I don’t think he is a natural presser, similar to Martial, and sometimes this is a concentration issue for me rather than him being lazy. Purely speculation, but I believe he can get in his-own head sometimes which affects said concentration. However when he is more confident, he is still one of our best players.
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Ah yes I'm a software developer and I keep telling my boss I'm not a natural typer, so I don't really do much...
 
Borninthe80ts said:
I also agree that Rashford gets overly abused in general but the work rate issue does highlight this more so. People tend to assume it’s about attitude and him not caring which I don’t agree with. He was lauded in fact for carrying the team-a couple seasons ago.

I don’t think he is a natural presser, similar to Martial, and sometimes this is a concentration issue for me rather than him being lazy. Purely speculation, but I believe he can get in his-own head sometimes which affects said concentration. However when he is more confident, he is still one of our best players.
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Pressing is basically running + following the managers instructions to know how to do it effectively. A pretty big part of any footballers job is running and following instructions. Saying he isn't a natural at that doesn't really make sense to me. Sounds like a cop out.

Ten Hag has said numerous times players aren't following his instructions, therefore the only thing I can infer is that Rashford purposely chooses not to press, rather than not being capable of it or not being told to do it
 
I think since about 4 years back, a worrying culture started to develop where our players basically diverged into two groups, the talented players on the ball who didn't do much work off it, and the grafters off the ball who weren't as talented on the ball.

It almost seemed like if you were skillful on the ball, you didn't need to work hard off it, and for the others, if you worked hard, it was Ok to be average on the ball.
The games of Rashford, Shaw, Martial, Pogba, Greenwood games were formed through that I feel (Sancho joined it), and it's an adjustment to shift that mentality. The types who will just stop and glare at the ref if someone is tugging their shirt, or glare at a teammate if the pass is not exactly where they want it.
On the other hand we had the likes of Fred, AWB, McTom, Elanga, Dan James who went hard into tackling at least, even if some could still be guilty of jogging when we've needed to recover and get back (McTom and AWB).

It's clear that to be a successful team, players need to be good on and off the ball, and for the likes of Rashford, it doesn't come naturally, so he's needing to very intentionally adjust.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
Pressing is basically running + following the managers instructions to know how to do it effectively. A pretty big part of any footballers job is running and following instructions. Saying he isn't a natural at that doesn't really make sense to me. Sounds like a cop out.

Ten Hag has said numerous times players aren't following his instructions, therefore the only thing I can infer is that Rashford purposely chooses not to press, rather than not being capable of it or not being told to do it
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Do you think EtH would still select Rashford game after game of he was deliberately not following his instructions???
Considering he dropped him for being late for a team meeting, I'd say your clutching here.
 
Glorio said:
I think since about 4 years back, a worrying culture started to develop where our players basically diverged into two groups, the talented players on the ball who didn't do much work off it, and the grafters off the ball who weren't as talented on the ball.

It almost seemed like if you were skillful on the ball, you didn't need to work hard off it, and for the others, if you worked hard, it was Ok to be average on the ball.
The games of Rashford, Shaw, Martial, Pogba, Greenwood games were formed through that I feel (Sancho joined it), and it's an adjustment to shift that mentality. The types who will just stop and glare at the ref if someone is tugging their shirt, or glare at a teammate if the pass is not exactly where they want it.
On the other hand we had the likes of Fred, AWB, McTom, Elanga, Dan James who went hard into tackling at least, even if some could still be guilty of jogging when we've needed to recover and get back (McTom and AWB).

It's clear that to be a successful team, players need to be good on and off the ball, and for the likes of Rashford, it doesn't come naturally, so he's needing to very intentionally adjust.
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Basically this in response to the mocking of taking Rashford perspective.
Of course players can be coached and should improve but instincts and poor conditioning can take over in the heat of the game. Nobody’s saying he shouldn’t do better for clarity.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
Pressing is basically running + following the managers instructions to know how to do it effectively. A pretty big part of any footballers job is running and following instructions. Saying he isn't a natural at that doesn't really make sense to me. Sounds like a cop out.

Ten Hag has said numerous times players aren't following his instructions, therefore the only thing I can infer is that Rashford purposely chooses not to press, rather than not being capable of it or not being told to do it
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Of course it’s on the player and it’s up to Marcus to do better. My point was it’s clearly not intentional like I feel the tone of the thread was alluding too. I’m not even sure it’s lazy as I know he cares but as I said before he can perform these tasks when concentrating.
 
Brightonian said:
You don't have to look hard to find people abusing him for every single aspect of his performance, actually. I'm pointing out that his work-rate can justifiably be criticised, albeit with moderation. But that much of the other criticism is unfair or overly harsh.
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Is Rashford getting abuse? Is he getting booed at Old Trafford? I'm curious to know what kind of abuse he's getting.
 


This thread is 7 years old. Can anyone explain why the one consistent theme under all our managers of the last seven years is the players being lazy/unfit/workshy wasters? What the feck is going on?!? Why can nobody make them work as hard as players at other teams?!?
 
Pogue Mahone said:


This thread is 7 years old. Can anyone explain why the one consistent theme under all our managers of the last seven years is the players being lazy/unfit/workshy wasters? What the feck is going on?!? Why can nobody make them work as hard as players at other teams?!?
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At this point, my theory is that we're somehow the only club in top level football who aren't doping.

INEOS and Dave Brailsford will sort us out. :drool:
 
Pogue Mahone said:


This thread is 7 years old. Can anyone explain why the one consistent theme under all our managers of the last seven years is the players being lazy/unfit/workshy wasters? What the feck is going on?!? Why can nobody make them work as hard as players at other teams?!?
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0 accountability.

Distant owners, yes men who's only concern is their own cushy jobs and overpaid untouchable players.
 
Pogue Mahone said:


This thread is 7 years old. Can anyone explain why the one consistent theme under all our managers of the last seven years is the players being lazy/unfit/workshy wasters? What the feck is going on?!? Why can nobody make them work as hard as players at other teams?!?
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Our workrate improved significantly in ETH’s early days.

But it’s really regressed this season. We didn’t look any fitter at the end of pre-season than we did at the start.

Edit: what @FreakyJim says above.
 
Pogue Mahone said:


This thread is 7 years old. Can anyone explain why the one consistent theme under all our managers of the last seven years is the players being lazy/unfit/workshy wasters? What the feck is going on?!? Why can nobody make them work as hard as players at other teams?!?
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You work harder when you're motivated and believe in what you are doing.

Pretty much every game this season ETH has hung the players out to dry with the system/team he's picked, and then he invariably puts all the responsibility onto them after the game when his tactics don't work. I can't imagine that's a particularly motivating environment to work under. Get sent out to fail then watch your manager tell the world it was your fault afterwards

If it happens with one set pf players you can say they're a rotten group. ETH has signed half of this squad himself and 7 years must incorporate 3-4 different sets of players
 
Whatever you want to be as a team effort or hardwork is non-negotiable.

We all saw psg with a good assembly of players but fail constantly in the champions league, they were carrying players who thought running back is above them.

We have players in our team who have achieved nothing in football but believe hard work is beneath them.

Constantly jogging back in transition or not making the effort to close down their man
 
noodlehair said:
You work harder when you're motivated and believe in what you are doing.

Pretty much every game this season ETH has hung the players out to dry with the system/team he's picked, and then he invariably puts all the responsibility onto them after the game when his tactics don't work. I can't imagine that's a particularly motivating environment to work under. Get sent out to fail then watch your manager tell the world it was your fault afterwards

If it happens with one set pf players you can say they're a rotten group. ETH has signed half of this squad himself and 7 years must incorporate 3-4 different sets of players
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Those stats are from our second game of this season. Don’t you think that’s a little premature for players to go on strike over the system/team he’s been using?
 
It's a common theme for many years, many different players and coaches now. I sort of half joke how players are on performance de-enhancing drugs, perhaps some kind of sabotage by a long standing trainer/dietician at the club.

Players come here fresh and quickly turn into slow hobbling wrecks. If we get to some fitness it takes its toll heavily and we're fecked for the last half of the season. Managers talk a good game on fitness on arrival but can't implement good fitness or training to what we see at other clubs. Players seem to be on a uphill battle, resistant and turn into frustrated depressed looking people with a face of grimace like they have shin splints. I just can't stand these players, like teens on a Monday morning.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Those stats are from our second game of this season. Don’t you think that’s a little premature for players to go on strike over the system/team he’s been using?
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Yes but it's also a one off game and it was very clear the system didn't work in the game before. Well it was clear before that because of how frankly silly it was/is.

If its not working it doesn't generally take long for the players to lose confidence/belief. Particularly if they're 2-0 down and being overun.

It is annoying to see other teams just working harder but I think its too simplified to just put it down to lazy players, especially when looking at stats for a game where we clearly had major tactical issues.
 
noodlehair said:
Yes but it's also a one off game and it was very clear the system didn't work in the game before. Well it was clear before that because of how frankly silly it was/is.

If its not working it doesn't generally take long for the players to lose confidence/belief. Particularly if they're 2-0 down and being overun.

It is annoying to see other teams just working harder but I think its too simplified to just put it down to lazy players, especially when looking at stats for a game where we clearly had major tactical issues.
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It’s not just one game though. It’s been exactly the same every time I’ve looked at stats from any game, or series of games, under every manager. This thread is seven years old and 37 pages long. I don’t think there’s been a single post in it with any evidence that we’re matching (never mind exceeding) the workrate of other teams.

The one and only exception has been a couple of games this season when Mejbri and Hojlund ran themselves into the ground and both had individual stats better than the opposition (in the cup game where we beat Crystal Palace reserves) Bruno often has good individual stats too.

The rest of them have been consistently out worked, under five different managers, so blaming tactics and team selection under ETH doesn’t make sense.
 
What bothers me a lot is that there is no team work. You can see a player running to press but nobody follows. So that makes his pressing pointless and leave us even more vulnerable.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It’s not just one game though. It’s been exactly the same every time I’ve looked at stats from any game, or series of games, under every manager. This thread is seven years old and 37 pages long. I don’t think there’s been a single post in it with any evidence that we’re matching (never mind exceeding) the workrate of other teams.

The one and only exception has been a couple of games this season when Mejbri and Hojlund ran themselves into the ground and both had individual stats better than the opposition (in the cup game where we beat Crystal Palace reserves) Bruno often has good individual stats too.

The rest of them have been consistently out worked, under five different managers, so blaming tactics and team selection under ETH doesn’t make sense.
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Which of our current players was getting outworked under Van Gaal again?
 
Sure, players can run around more, we saw against Wolves how Mount came in with tons of energy and were chasing everything. Problem is when you don´t do the pressing as a team, this high energy pressing from individuals almost cause more problems than they solve.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I don’t know, or give a shit, you can see when the thread was started. That’s the time frame I’m talking about. Which is plenty long enough to include even the longest serving members of our squad.
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So you're just talking out of your arse?
 
led_scholes said:
What bothers me a lot is that there is no team work. You can see a player running to press but nobody follows. So that makes his pressing pointless and leave us even more vulnerable.
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100% this.

There are a few players working very hard in terms of pressing, but it's not a collective press, it's headless chicken individual pressing which is easy to bypass.
Last night Garnacho, Mount and Hannibal were pressing often but with no triggers or cohesion with other teams members.
EtH has often stated that some players are not adhering to the tactics, I guess this is what he is referring too, players not pressing as a unit.
 
Gordon S said:
Sure, players can run around more, we saw against Wolves how Mount came in with tons of energy and were chasing everything. Problem is when you don´t do the pressing as a team, this high energy pressing from individuals almost cause more problems than they solve.
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Champ said:
100% this.

There are a few players working very hard in terms of pressing, but it's not a collective press, it's headless chicken individual pressing which is easy to bypass.
Last night Garnacho, Mount and Hannibal were pressing often but with no triggers or cohesion with other teams members.
EtH has often stated that some players are not adhering to the tactics, I guess this is what he is referring too, players not pressing as a unit.
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To be honest, even if we were literally sprinting around like headless chickens I would be less annoyed. Because then at least I know the players are all giving 100%. What bothers me is that I’ve seen zero objective evidence of that happening.

As I said, there was that one game where Hannibal and Mejbri covered huge individual distances but in the seven years since this thread started I have never seen anyone post any evidence of our team outworking another team, in the same way that Spurs did in the tweet I bumped the thread with. I’ve also not seen any evidence of us outworking rival teams based on larger data sets. If such evidence exists, I would love to see it. That’s basically the main reason I started the thread.
 
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