Doesn't surprise me one bit. Says it all really...
Workrate
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
Shockingly bad.
It's stats like that that tell me there's no way back.
I'd like to see that stat compared to our normal. It's our style under Mourinho to run a whole lot less than pretty much everyone else. One of the main reasons we're so poor to watch.
Martial sprinted 4 times in 71 minutes. Once every 17m45s. As a winger.
feck my life.
Lukaku once every 22m30s.
Did they all have horse tranquiliser for breakfast or something?
feck my life.
Lukaku once every 22m30s.
Did they all have horse tranquiliser for breakfast or something?
And lest we forget that the lack of urgency/energy, was while we were a goal behind (WHU scored very early on, which should've energised our players).
This reflects badly on Mourinho and even more so on the players.
Anyone could have told you Luke Shaw was the hardest working united player on Saturday without stats to confirm it.
The problem I have is that if the manager has to go fine, but the players who stop trying or aren't tying hard enough to begin with, generally aren't made of the right stuff either.
If you are a winner you don't stop trying and sulk, regardless of who the manager is. You don't keep losing our because you can't be bothered to try as hard as your competitors.
Shaw has suffered more than the rest when it comes to criticism from both the media and his own manager, yet he's been able to roll his sleeves up and do something about it. The rest have no real excuse
Anyone could have told you Luke Shaw was the hardest working united player on Saturday without stats to confirm it.
The problem I have is that if the manager has to go fine, but the players who stop trying or aren't tying hard enough to begin with, generally aren't made of the right stuff either.
If you are a winner you don't stop trying and sulk, regardless of who the manager is. You don't keep losing our because you can't be bothered to try as hard as your competitors.
Shaw has suffered more than the rest when it comes to criticism from both the media and his own manager, yet he's been able to roll his sleeves up and do something about it. The rest have no real excuse
Sprint to where tho? Our lineup and formation for that game was such shiit im surprised we even racked as many as we have.
Considering Pogba is the only player in that team capable of making a pass for others to run, I'm actually not even surprised by that number .
There are probably two main reasons for those stats.
Firstly the players are not playing for the manager right now. They should still be playing for the shirt and the fans if they don't like the manager, but that's another argument entirely.
Secondly we play so slowly that by the time we've crossed the half way line, the other team has had ample time to get behind the ball and into their shape. There is no where to sprint to!
Firstly the players are not playing for the manager right now. They should still be playing for the shirt and the fans if they don't like the manager, but that's another argument entirely.
Secondly we play so slowly that by the time we've crossed the half way line, the other team has had ample time to get behind the ball and into their shape. There is no where to sprint to!
players take on the persona of the manager. If we get an up beat enthused manager who wants to play creative and attacking football then it will reflect in the attitude of the players.
Not really. Players are grown adult people like you and me. They aren't pets or babies looking to follow their master.
If a player decides not to try or to down tools, or simply isn't trying hard enough to begin with, that's as much a reflection on them as it is the manager...and you have to factor in that any new manager is going to be faced with the same problem.
You play to win because you want to win, not because a manager/team mate hasn't done anything to make you sulk in the past few days.
Playing a midfield with big, slow players like Matic,Fellaini,Pogba plus a lumberjack like Lukaku upfront is not helping. We are being done for pace and workrate by most teams that use smaller,faster and more technical players. Look at bloody city for example. They play with 2 fullbacks that can attack also and infront of them either Sterling/Mahrez on the right and Sane on the left. What does that give them that we have not? The ability to stretch the play and get in behind teams. On top of that they have midfielders that can pass the ball and move. Mourinho on the other hands plays with Valencia and Young(Shaw is finally showing how good he is) both being 33 year old former wingers and in front of them Mata and Sanchez. Plus a midfield of Matic,Pogba and Fellaini. Is there any wonder our football is slow and predictable.
Jesus wept. Guess we can dismiss that theory about Lukaku being on the Mourinho side of the split.
That is actually scary. That alone should be grounds for why Jose needs to go.
disagree. Look at how United played in Fergie's last season vs Moyes season. van Gaals first season vs his second season. Or Mourinho's 2015-2016 Chelsea team, vs Conte's team in 2016-2017, and then again Conte the following year. We are talking about teams with almost identical players giving vastly difference performances based on a change of manager, or the buying into/falling out with the manager.
You’re giving examples of squads of players who have behaved disgracefully in the past as evidence that our players aren’t behaving disgracefully now. Are you sure you’ve thought this through?
I agree it reflects pretty poorly on the players if they don't try as hard becuase they don't like their boss, but by that standard pretty much every single footballer playing today falls into that category.
Perhaps they are all snowflakes or whatever, but that is the reality of it and we'd better start getting used to it.
To be honest, there aren't many players in our squad that I associate with high energy levels and who are good at pressing but when you consider this squad is one of the highest paid in Europe and Jose has repeatedly said he struggles to motivate them against lower opposition teams, at what point do we say that these players aren't fit to represent United? It's one thing not having quality, it's another when there's a lack of effort. This doesn't absolve Jose of his boring, negative tactics or bad transfer dealings but still, I think some of our squad are getting away with a lot of stuff.
I agree it’s a general trend but it does look as though certain squads of players are more bipolar than others. Chelsea were always a classic example (or Madrid) but now it looks like you can add Manchester United to the list.
At least, you can do that once the useless twats prove themselves of turning things round once we sign the right manager. As noodles is alluding to, we can’t be certain that our players are actually less shit than they seem to be under Mourinho (although, personally, I think they will look a lot better under a different manager)
In that case, they should be playing for the badge, for the fans, and for professional pride. We've all worked for people we don't like but we get our heads down and do the job to the best of our abilities.
This is something i brought him in the post match thread. You can't even say we work hard. It's often used in a condescending way towards smaller teams who haven't quite got the quality but "they work hard". But it's not even something you can say about us. We don't even do the most fundamental of things. No press to speak of, hardly any movement off the ball, no fecking aggression.
I know it's very old-school-british-manager type shite to say just run around a bit, but some times (especially when you're struggling with performances and results) you do like to see some of that. Strip away all the tactics, formations and who plays where, there's something to say for just seeing your team bust their gut and do some fecking running.
I know it's very old-school-british-manager type shite to say just run around a bit, but some times (especially when you're struggling with performances and results) you do like to see some of that. Strip away all the tactics, formations and who plays where, there's something to say for just seeing your team bust their gut and do some fecking running.
Obviously individual players make a difference, but part of the skill of being a manager is keeping harmony in the squad. Easy for everyone to be happy when things are going well, much harder to do it when they aren't.
Looking at Klopp/Pep/Poch, whilst things are looking ok now, I never had a sense that an implosion was incoming, even when things weren't going so well. My opinion is that is due to them being naturally inclusive people, for those that they want to keep around. Yes Pep was decisive when he first came in and got rid of a few he didn't want, nothing wrong with that, but the ones that are left feel part of a team.
Jose (and Conte when he went postal) are very divisive. How can you expect someone to give their all and play well when after the last match Jose told the press you were shit?
It stems from the manager as much as the players. You either manage it properly, or you see what is happening now.
Every time I see videos or pictures of the players training, were always doing agility work, ladders and sprint work in and out of poles, the same thing all the time. I wonder if we actually do any passing drills or anything. I know they won't show stuff to the media incase stuff gets leaked but you wonder as our workrate on and off the ball are so bad are we actually doing that type of stuff or were not doing enough of it.
You look at Chelsea and in space of 3 months they play at such speed and movement going forward same as Liverpool. Klopp has had 3 years too and they are miles ahead of us in style of play, same with city. Scoring goals for fun while we sit on -2. I'm sick seeing the club going downhill and our rivals just get better. Watch tomorrow night we will struggle to get the ball off Valencia who are struggling themselves in their league and we will struggle to create stuff on the ball going forward. 1st 20 mins against young boys we got cut open and if it was a better opposition we would be 2-3 goals down.
You look at Chelsea and in space of 3 months they play at such speed and movement going forward same as Liverpool. Klopp has had 3 years too and they are miles ahead of us in style of play, same with city. Scoring goals for fun while we sit on -2. I'm sick seeing the club going downhill and our rivals just get better. Watch tomorrow night we will struggle to get the ball off Valencia who are struggling themselves in their league and we will struggle to create stuff on the ball going forward. 1st 20 mins against young boys we got cut open and if it was a better opposition we would be 2-3 goals down.
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tbf I'm not sure Martial can ever reach a speed that is classified as sprinting. He's so so slow.
Again not really. Chelsea sulked under Mourinho then the same players who were still there sulked under Conte when things weren't going well.
Three managers in a row have had problem with players at United now. Which is a semi non argument anyway with how many new players we've bought in that time.
Anyone can play well when you are winning games and everything is working. When there are problems is when you see who the players made of the right stuff are. Neither mourinho nor any other manager force their players not to try or to sulk. Players do that for themselves and you find they will do it whenever things don't go their way, not just because they specifically don't like a certain manager. It is a character trait. It is down to the player to accept and address that.
This thread is from Mourinhos first season. Were they all downing tools then? Are the new guys he's since added also all downing tools too?
Not the same players though which is where this argument falls to pieces.
Unless you happen to believe the trouble makers in the locker room are De Gea, Smalling, Jones, Young and Valencia.
Agree with this. Players are pretty similar everywhere. I don't think that City and Liverpool have more motivated and aggressive players. Most of them are nothing like, say, Roy Keane. Yet they work very hard. The buck stops with the manager. It's his job to make them hungry for success and run like mad. But it is far easier to achieve that if you offer them a style of play that helps them feel the joy of playing football and express themselves freely.
That is the best explanation of this that I've read so far and is what I've been trying (and failing) to get across.
If this was a one-off thing, absolutely.
But it's been obvious since Mourinho came in that he puts us out there to play passively. I mean, this thread is two years old and only a few months after Mourinho took over, and we were talking about our workrate, pressing and movement back then. So when that is how we've basically played for two years, now if everyone is down with low morale and feeling uncertain the bad aspects are naturally going to be even worse. Now add in a line-up that was terrible and pretty much guaranteed our attackers would get completely isolated...
The players obviously do have to take some responsibility for it. But the manager certainly plays a huge part in it all.
Yeah you are right but I think there are different issues here though. Our passive style of play and lack of energy compared to other team's I think is on Jose as it's either tactical or after 2 years he still hasn't done anything to address it.
On Saturday though you saw a team not even particularly trying. It looked like sulking. Different to just passive tactics and I think there you are looking as much at the players as the manager, as it's not the first time. A one off can be a bad day, but this is now a trend.
The stats with Shaw compared to the rest kind of confirm it. They could have been trying harder if they had chosen to. Not liking the manager or being upset at how thjbgs are going is a really soft reason to simply not try for a supposed team of elite professional athletes
Are there stats anywhere for what we normally do, so we can compare it?
Jose fielded a basketball team the other day though. Basketballers are not famous for making many sprints.
In that system it is only natural that a wingback had most sprints.
Makes sense.
We cross the half way line, and every player who is in front of the guy who has possession is either lightly jogging, walking around, or just stood still.
Nobody makes runs off the ball, with the ball, in anticipation of the ball etc.
We only run when the other team have the ball, it's pathetic.
We cross the half way line, and every player who is in front of the guy who has possession is either lightly jogging, walking around, or just stood still.
Nobody makes runs off the ball, with the ball, in anticipation of the ball etc.
We only run when the other team have the ball, it's pathetic.
Our players are an absolute disgrace.
They think they've made when they come here with fanfare.
One of the main issues is a player like Martial gets heralded for doing feck all. He suddenly feels too self important and feels United owe him.
The fans should turn their backs on these useless feckers. How many managers are they going to get sacked?
They think they've made when they come here with fanfare.
One of the main issues is a player like Martial gets heralded for doing feck all. He suddenly feels too self important and feels United owe him.
The fans should turn their backs on these useless feckers. How many managers are they going to get sacked?
Maybe for him to have the most but the others barely did anything. The worst of any team that day. Not only that, but the performance in general was what you see from a team that has given up.
The team selection was garbage for me, and the pitiful excuse offered up for it by Jose even more so, but it doesn't excuse a lack of character on the pitch from the players.
I think work rate is one of the most Jose overrated things he does alongside complaining alongside mentality - he always complains about it at every club - highlighting players that hardly get that type of view by other managers.
The big problem is that Jose hardly ever plays players in their best attacking position yet expects them to have the best possible attacking & defensive capability.
De bryune was a RW for him & complained about his work rate. Put him at Cam or Cm & no one complains about his work rate because he is working much better attackingly & therefore better defensively too.
Same thing with Hazard when he was under Jose - did well but restricted his work as an attacker in comparison to the things sarri has him doing now with the ability to work harder as an attacker.
I look at Martial & how Jose is clearly frustrated with his ability to make forward runs wide as possible on the touchline as well as not defending on the touchline & tracking back wingback from the other side.
How does he expect martial to make the best possible runs off the ball on the touchline when he is a player who drops deep to receive the ball normally centrally & starts/initiate play by trying to play one twos? Martial has the ability to play one twos centrally with many more players than he does at LW - whilst also being in a central position to make runs off the ball in to free areas to do the same again. That is not possible at LW - he is purely there to make runs rather than initiate any sort of play unless he gets the ball in which his next step is to always play a cross to Lukaku & nothing else.
How does Jose expect Martial to do the best work rate attackingly playing a role that is not getting the best out of him? Didn't work for De bryune so don't think it will work for Martial. Again defensively Martial might be a bit of a jogger but he is also playing off wide an area where he is used to receive the ball on the counterattack as a wide player when he should be used as someone who initiates the counterattack by getting the ball to him by the centre.
I'd say even if he isn't great - Martial would suit a high pressing team because his defensive responsibility would be directly in front of him rather than being in a team that purposefully gives possession so we can eventually win a tackle deep in our half to one day eventually initiate an attack.
Would not suit de bryune would not suit martial.
The big problem is that Jose hardly ever plays players in their best attacking position yet expects them to have the best possible attacking & defensive capability.
De bryune was a RW for him & complained about his work rate. Put him at Cam or Cm & no one complains about his work rate because he is working much better attackingly & therefore better defensively too.
Same thing with Hazard when he was under Jose - did well but restricted his work as an attacker in comparison to the things sarri has him doing now with the ability to work harder as an attacker.
I look at Martial & how Jose is clearly frustrated with his ability to make forward runs wide as possible on the touchline as well as not defending on the touchline & tracking back wingback from the other side.
How does he expect martial to make the best possible runs off the ball on the touchline when he is a player who drops deep to receive the ball normally centrally & starts/initiate play by trying to play one twos? Martial has the ability to play one twos centrally with many more players than he does at LW - whilst also being in a central position to make runs off the ball in to free areas to do the same again. That is not possible at LW - he is purely there to make runs rather than initiate any sort of play unless he gets the ball in which his next step is to always play a cross to Lukaku & nothing else.
How does Jose expect Martial to do the best work rate attackingly playing a role that is not getting the best out of him? Didn't work for De bryune so don't think it will work for Martial. Again defensively Martial might be a bit of a jogger but he is also playing off wide an area where he is used to receive the ball on the counterattack as a wide player when he should be used as someone who initiates the counterattack by getting the ball to him by the centre.
I'd say even if he isn't great - Martial would suit a high pressing team because his defensive responsibility would be directly in front of him rather than being in a team that purposefully gives possession so we can eventually win a tackle deep in our half to one day eventually initiate an attack.
Would not suit de bryune would not suit martial.
A lot of it is tactical, since Mourinho joined the distance covered is pretty much the lowest in the league, a lot of that is because we don’t press, drop deep and allow teams to have the ball. We also don’t put much emphasis on quick passing and movement and hit a lot of long balls and crosses.
Obviously at the weeken the effort levels were worse than normal but the team clearly aren’t being coached to sprint a lot or cover a lot of ground.
Obviously at the weeken the effort levels were worse than normal but the team clearly aren’t being coached to sprint a lot or cover a lot of ground.