Wimbledon 2012

I like Storey's brilliant analysis of baseline play, as if almost all the top players these days play like Nadal 3-5 yards behind the baseline.

Let's have a look at the top 10 bar Nadal:

Djokovic - Dominant powerful baseline player with big strokes from both forehand and backhand, likes to control the points while standing on the baseline and finish them himself, has the ability to grind out points aswell thanks to his speed, athleticism and anticipation. Very solid allround play and can mix in some deadly drop shots and lobs.

Federer - No comment is needed

Murray - Has a great serve and great volley, for some reason he just crawls into his shell and starts griding points far too often when he should take command.

Ferrer - Most similar to Nadal among the top 10.

Tsonga - When he's firing he has great allround play and can Serve-Volley fantastically.

Berdych - Power-hitter standing on the baseline.

Tipsarevic - Allround player.

Del Potro - Also a power hitter standing on the baseline.

John Isner - Huge guy with a massive serve.

So out of the top 10 there's only one other guy bar Nadal that consistently plays in a similar fashion to him. At the same time you have more guys who hit many winners like Djokovic, Federer, Del Potro, Isner, Berdych and Tsonga. So in essence your analysis is wrong.
 
ILBB15 said:
I like Storey's brilliant analysis of baseline play, as if almost all the top players these days play like Nadal 3-5 yards behind the baseline.

Let's have a look at the top 10 bar Nadal:

Djokovic - Dominant powerful baseline player with big strokes from both forehand and backhand, likes to control the points while standing on the baseline and finish them himself, has the ability to grind out points aswell thanks to his speed, athleticism and anticipation. Very solid allround play and can mix in some deadly drop shots and lobs.

Federer - No comment is needed

Murray - Has a great serve and great volley, for some reason he just crawls into his shell and starts griding points far too often when he should take command.

Ferrer - Most similar to Nadal among the top 10.

Tsonga - When he's firing he has great allround play and can Serve-Volley fantastically.

Berdych - Power-hitter standing on the baseline.

Tipsarevic - Allround player.

Del Potro - Also a power hitter standing on the baseline.

John Isner - Huge guy with a massive serve.

So out of the top 10 there's only one other guy bar Nadal that consistently plays in a similar fashion to him. At the same time you have more guys who hit many winners like Djokovic, Federer, Del Potro, Isner, Berdych and Tsonga. So in essence your analysis is wrong.
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So limited :lol:
 
ILBB15 said:
So in essence your analysis is wrong.
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We're talking top 4: Nadal is baseline zzs personified, Joko is not much better ditto Murray. Poor old Rog is getting on a bit and has modified his grass court game to be nearly as tedious as the others.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Because tennis is a game of surfaces. What Wimbledon used to bring was fast reactions, technique, mentality, feel at net. It is what tennis is all about, this is where the pure talent comes and where all the great players made it their fortress.

I certainly don't like what Wimbledon has become - mindless bashing ala Roland Garros, and players coming to the net only to shake hands...
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Yeah really, these guys have no skill and finesse:



Seriously, Boris Becker was my childhood-hero and I can accept that it would in reality be impossible for him to win the Wimbledon as a 17-year old in this day and age. The men's side has never been better.
 
ILBB15 said:
Seriously, Boris Becker was my childhood-hero and I can accept that it would in reality be impossible for him to win the Wimbledon as a 17-year old in this day and age. The men's side has never been better.
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Roll the surface back and he'd blast them off the court - you've just seen No.100 do it to Nadal on slugged grass.
 
peterstorey said:
We're talking top 4: Nadal is baseline zzs personified, Joko is not much better ditto Murray. Poor old Rog is getting on a bit and has modified his grass court game to be nearly as tedious as the others.
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I really don't understand what you expect from the players. Do you want them to race to the net after every serve, including 2nd serve like they used to do? Impossible, they would be destroyed and it would have nothing to do with the surface being slower.

You get punished on almost every average volley you hit these days, so not only do you have to hit great volleys consistently, you also have to consistently hit massive 1st serves with a high-percentage to even have a chance to set-up a good volley opportunity when playing against a fantastic returner of serve like Novak. It's gone out of fashion to play serve-volley every point these days because it won't pay off, as simple as that.
 
peterstorey said:
Roll the surface back and he'd blast them off the court - you've just seen No.100 do it to Nadal on slugged grass.
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What Rosol did was hitting huge serves and hitting massive winners from the baseline and he also had incredible returns. He wisely didn't rush the net. He played the same way most players play these days but with incredible efficiency. Kind of similiar to the way Djokovic destroyed Nadal in the 2nd set in last years final. It's not nearly reminiscent of the way the classic serve-volleyers played.
 
ILBB15 said:
Impossible, they would be destroyed and it would have nothing to do with the surface being slower..
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It's got EVERYTHING to do with the grass being slower. You had a classic example of what happens to a baseliner on a fast court today, speed up the surface and Nadal would be going home early every year as the clay courters used to do pre 2000.
 
peterstorey said:
It's got EVERYTHING to do with the grass being slower. You had a classic example of what happens to a baseliner on a fast court today, speed up the surface and Nadal would be going home early every year as the clay courters used to do pre 2000.
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See my post above this one for answer on this.
 
peterstorey said:
Because he's playing on a slugged surface and isn't that great. Put Sampras or Laver on true grass and Nadal & co are mincemeat.
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The slower court has been compensated by improved racquet technology which allows players to hit faster serves, return serves that are 120+ Mph right at the servers feet when he's rushing towards the net, hit passing shots and winners at 100+ Mph. None of these things used to be possible. In my opinion these combining factors, change the sport more than the slower court does.

Another factor is that players are bigger, faster and stronger than before. There are also alot more people playing the sport these days in different parts of the world where 30 years ago there was no tennis court in sight. The part of Yugoslavia that I grew up in for example had no tennis facilities what so ever. That has changed significantly over the years.

Tennis really is a sport of different eras. It has changed a lot over the years. Not really comparable to for example Heavyweight Boxing where you just know that the likes of Foreman, Ali and Frazier would easily dismantle every heavyweight these days bar the Klitschko brothers.

If you don't enjoy it don't watch it. There are plenty of us who have experienced different generations and eras in tennis and loved every single one of them and will continue to do so.
 
ILBB15 said:
There are plenty of us who have experienced different generations and eras in tennis and loved every single one of them and will continue to do so.
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Bully for you - I happen to think it's supposed to be lawn tennis and this slow court stuff bores seven shades of shite out of me. Ali would paste any heavyweight around and Laver would do the same to Nadal and Djokovic on grass.
 
peterstorey said:
Bully for you - I happen to think it's supposed to be lawn tennis and this slow court stuff bores seven shades of shite out of me. Ali would paste any heavyweight around and Laver would do the same to Nadal and Djokovic on grass.
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A Laver vs Rafa/Novak scenario can't even be considered. Different eras, different circumstances, almost everything is different. You act as if lawn tennis has been the same up until lately. Just look at the way they played in the Borg-Mcenroe era compared to the Sampras era and you'll notice a huge difference.

Lawn tennis is still very different compared to the other surfaces, which is very obvious when you look at Djokovic vs Tsonga at last years Wimbledon and at this years Roland Garros. The matches look nothing alike.

There's no point arguing with you about anything at all really since you just skip and won't adress most of my points so I'll leave it at that.
 
ILBB15 said:
A Laver vs Rafa/Novak scenario can't even be considered. Different eras, different circumstances, almost everything is different. You act as if lawn tennis has been the same up until lately. Just look at the way they played in the Borg-Mcenroe era compared to the Sampras era and you'll notice a huge difference.

Lawn tennis is still very different compared to the other surfaces, which is very obvious when you look at Djokovic vs Tsonga at last years Wimbledon and at this years Roland Garros. The matches look nothing alike.

There's no point arguing with you about anything at all really since you just skip and won't adress most of my points so I'll leave it at that.
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You don't really have a point since you fall at the first hurdle - lawn tennis is meant to be played on grass and all other surfaces are just substitutes. You want to live in a new world of 'tennis' where grass is an inconvenience just like most of the players.
 
peterstorey said:
You don't really have a point since you fall at the first hurdle - lawn tennis is meant to be played on grass and all other surfaces are just substitutes. You want to live in a new world of 'tennis' where grass is an inconvenience just like most of the players.
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The most prestigious tournament in the sport that every tennis player wants to win is still played on grass. You're free to go back to the 19th century with that holier-than-thou attitude of yours about how "proper lawn tennis" should be played, it makes you sound like a wanker.
 
peterstorey said:
Because he's playing on a slugged surface and isn't that great. Put Sampras or Laver on true grass and Nadal & co are mincemeat.
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Yes. Put Sampras on clay with Nadal and he's mincemeat. Big deal, contrasting styles in sport. Who'd have thunk it.

Frankly I used to find Sampras the most boring player on tour. Not taking into account his dour personality.
 
Yeah but 'lawn' tennis is supposed to be played on grass not fecking clay or some other synthetic shit. Do you see PL games on astrotrurf? Like feck you do.
 
ILBB15 said:
Yeah really, these guys have no skill and finesse:

Seriously, Boris Becker was my childhood-hero and I can accept that it would in reality be impossible for him to win the Wimbledon as a 17-year old in this day and age. The men's side has never been better.
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So you have enjoyed watching per say Becker, Edberg, Sampras in the past and now you enjoy mindless bashing from the baseline, at wimbledon. I don't think it makes sense.

Tsonga is not a regular top 10 player his game is much more complete than say Ferrer, Nadal, Isner, Berdych etc... He's just not consistent enough to take it to the final and win it at the moment and in the past. He's one of the most entertaining players out there.
 
Enigma_87 said:
So you have enjoyed watching per say Becker, Edberg, Sampras in the past and now you enjoy mindless bashing from the baseline, at wimbledon. I don't think it makes sense.

Tsonga is not a regular top 10 player his game is much more complete than say Ferrer, Nadal, Isner, Berdych etc... He's just not consistent enough to take it to the final and win it at the moment and in the past. He's one of the most entertaining players out there.
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Why can't you enjoy both styles of Tennis? Incessant hitting from baseline can get boring but so can the serve and volley routine. Some one like Roddick thundering one unplayable service after another is better to watch than Nadal?
 
crappycraperson said:
Why can't you enjoy both styles of Tennis? Incessant hitting from baseline can get boring but so can the serve and volley routine. Some one like Roddick thundering one unplayable service after another is better to watch than Nadal?
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Because due to homogenizing the surfaces, the latter serve and volley routine is now extinct. There are only couple of players left out there who bring something else to the mix - Federer, Tsonga and I can't really think of others.

If Wimbledon is what it was, and USO is what it was, it will bring more aggressive players to the tour and would welcome more attacking tennis.

When the surfaces is homogenized it's all the same style and whoever is more consistent wins..
 
Enigma_87 said:
Because tennis is a game of surfaces. What Wimbledon used to bring was fast reactions, technique, mentality, feel at net. It is what tennis is all about, this is where the pure talent comes and where all the great players made it their fortress.

I certainly don't like what Wimbledon has become - mindless bashing ala Roland Garros, and players coming to the net only to shake hands...
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It's no more inventive and simply a different way of playing. It was dull.
 
DFreshKing said:
It's one up on just hitting the ball as hard as you can.
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What, hitting a serve as hard as you can hoping your opponent can't return it or lobs it up for an easy volley? Serve and volley specialists were doing so due to not having an all round game.
 
peterstorey said:
We're talking top 4: Nadal is baseline zzs personified, Joko is not much better ditto Murray. Poor old Rog is getting on a bit and has modified his grass court game to be nearly as tedious as the others.
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Nadal is actually an outstanding volleyer, if he wanted he would be very good at serve&volleying except considering his main rivals, among which one of the greatest returners of all time in Djokovic, such a tactic would prove fruitless.

If you looked more closely at his game you would see how efficient he is whenever he comes to the net
 
I was watching that final set last night laughing like a maniac :lol::lol:

Still can't believe what happened.
 
Nani Nana said:
Nadal is actually an outstanding volleyer, if he wanted he would be very good at serve&volleying except considering his main rivals, among which one of the greatest returners of all time in Djokovic, such a tactic would prove fruitless.

If you looked more closely at his game you would see how efficient he is whenever he comes to the net
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that's bollox. Nadal is not an outstanding volleyer. Nadal comes to the net to finish a putaway volley. He doesn't serve and volley or rely on his net skills. He
s usually forced to come to the net.

Nadal has molded his game to almost perfection and he has 1 game and plan A. He doesn't have the ability to change anything if things go wrong(that rarely happens but happens). He doensn't have plan B and when an aggressive player is having a good day he is blasted off court. THat doesn't happen to players like Federer or Djokovic, cause they have much more aggressive game..
 
Enigma_87 said:
So you have enjoyed watching per say Becker, Edberg, Sampras in the past and now you enjoy mindless bashing from the baseline
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Ehh, Yes!

To be honest, I think's it's pretty moronic and simplistic to describe the playing today as "mindless bashing from the baseline" because that's clearly complete bollocks. It's not that simple.
 
:lol::lol:

feck right off Nadal you wanker.


Enigma_87 said:
that's bollox. Nadal is not an outstanding volleyer. Nadal comes to the net to finish a putaway volley. He doesn't serve and volley or rely on his net skills. He
s usually forced to come to the net.
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For sure, he's a net poacher. That's it.

The extra power being injected into the game means that dominating at the net is less viable these days. It's useful but Nadal has shown you can be fairly rubbish at the net and rely on big ground strokes and clinical finishing.

But it won't last forever.
 
ILBB15 said:
Ehh, Yes!

To be honest, I think's it's pretty moronic and simplistic to describe the playing today as "mindless bashing from the baseline" because that's clearly complete bollocks. It's not that simple.
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Yes of course it's not, I got a bit overboard, what I described was the WTA. However, you can't neglect the issue with only the emergence of baseliners nowadays. There aren't many guys who have different game to what Ferrer or others like him - solely based on consistency.
 
Djokovic drops a set to Stephanek. These championships are odd.
 
One thing I want to mention, and it should be known to many commentators of all sports, but the commentary of that final game was perfect. Sometimes you're not required to say anything, the crowd and game itself says it for you.
 
:lol: Cracking game between Djokovic-Stepanek right now. Both players showing off.
 
Troicki in the next round for Novak. Pretty easy ride to the QF's for him. Looks like it'll be another Fed Djoko match.
 
So irritating that all Serbs have to be on the same half. Can always hope for Tipsarevic to make the job a little easier for Novak by knocking out Roger in the quarterfinal if they all get there :D
 
wr8_utd said:
Pretty easy ride to the QF's for him.
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That's what *** said about Nadal....

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