Willian

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Ban said:
Mata imo needs to go or be a squad option and we can't rely on Young and Valencia anymore.
Who's to say there wont be any more talents from within our ranks?
It's all easy to say we need a player who'll become a star soon but who? And sometimes you need a finished product, that doesn't mean all the youngsters will go bust.
Btw Willian wouldn't replace Martial cause Martial plays on the left.
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We'd have a lot of old(er) players on our books, no matter how you'd spin it. Sanchez, Mata, Young, Valencia all have to get paid every month, the latter three leaving is because of their contracts a no certainty at all.

Adding another 'average' winger to that list, i wouldn't do it. We have to get at least a level up next season. Look at the countless Chelsea boards, most of them are unhappy for years with Willian's output.

Hopefully Sanchez isn't shifted to the left as long as Martial is here, with Mourinho you never know. If someone like Willian played constantly on the right, it would mean that Sanchez would start on the left, no place for a young talent such as Martial anymore. Of course buying an attacking player could come in handy, finding one who's ambitious shouldn't be impossible for the scouting network, there're a few really good young players out there who desperately want to earn their stripes, but someone has to do his homework first.

Overall me thinks we can do better than buying Willian for about 40 mil. bucks. I'm all up for bringing in some real quality, even it means not bringing in another CB. But if Mourinho thinks Willian is the missing piece, then do it, but if it doesn't work out, he shouldn't come crying afterwards.
 
Mourinhonista said:
We'd have a lot of old(er) players on our books, no matter how you'd spin it. Sanchez, Mata, Young, Valencia all have to get paid every month, the latter three leaving is because of their contracts a no certainty at all.

Adding another 'average' winger to that list, i wouldn't do it. We have to get at least a level up next season. Look at the countless Chelsea boards, most of them are unhappy for years with Willian's output.

Hopefully Sanchez isn't shifted to the left as long as Martial is here, with Mourinho you never know. If someone like Willian played constantly on the right, it would mean that Sanchez would start on the left, no place for a young talent such as Martial anymore. Of course buying an attacking player could come in handy, finding one who's ambitious shouldn't be impossible for the scouting network, there're a few really good young players out there who desperately want to earn their stripes, but someone has to do his homework first.

Overall me thinks we can do better than buying Willian for about 40 mil. bucks. I'm all up for bringing in some real quality, even it means not bringing in another CB. But if Mourinho thinks Willian is the missing piece, then do it, but if it doesn't work out, he shouldn't come crying afterwards.
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It doesnt necessarily need to be a 'missing peace', just a player who will add width to our attack and an option more. That along with new FBs hopefully and we're flying.
As for old players, there arent that many to be panicky about it, not to mention we have a few young ones too. Overall age in the squad isn't the problem right now.
 
He'd provide solid width on the right flank and offer workrate, defensive cover and allow the left side Martial/Sanchez to have more freedom to come inside. You can see why Mourinho wants him for the type of side he wants to build.
The problem is I think half the board want to play a completely different style with a different type of player, thats at odds with what Mourinho wants.
Personally i'd ditch Mourinho but, if we're keeping him we should be giving him the tools he wants to build the team in his image.
 
unitedbhoy said:
I brought the stats into account because it's the easiest format to base an attacking player's input. I never said that Willian is as good as Hazard, I was just merely showing that Willian's goals/assists are at the level of most highly rated players in the league, so he'd obviously contribute to a United team lacking in goals and creativity. Honestly, I don't think Willian and Hazard are worlds apart. It's Hazard's burst of acceleration that puts him to the next level, it allows him to turn a tight defender with ease.

I certainly don't defend every Mourinho target, I'm just a big fan of Willian as a footballer and am of the opinion his talent is largely overlooked.

Most posters in this thread who are opposed to the signing of Willian would rather us go for a younger talent, even though the 2 youngest of our attacking talents are either under-performing or not following the manager's instructions.

We also have a youngster in Chong who is very highly rated throughout the club, so purchasing a young winger make result in Chong not getting the chances he might do if we go for a more experienced option.
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The last part is another very good point. Good post.
 
Ban said:
It doesnt necessarily need to be a 'missing peace', just a player who will add width to our attack and an option more. That along with new FBs hopefully and we're flying.
As for old players, there arent that many to be panicky about it, not to mention we have a few young ones too. Overall age in the squad isn't the problem right now.
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The number of players who can play as wingers isn't too bad, especially after bringing in two new fullbacks, which would free Valencia and Young up. The attack has to be a lot more potent next season, unsure whether more width and options to have would significantly improve the goal/assist output. It remains to be seen whether or not Sanchez can hit about 15 goals, Willian is more of a ball carrier than a scorer of goals, IMO.

The overall age of the squad might not be the problem, but the aformentioned attacking players (Sanchez, Mata) and maybe Willian would only have a few more good years left in them. We'd have lot more old attacking players then young ones, especially if Martial decides to call it a day.
 
Mahrez is going to City to rotate with Sterling and Bernardo on the right - surely he could be convinced to be a catalyst at Old Trafford instead?

Willian just isn’t what I’d look for - he’s an inverter anyway, so while improving the team won’t provide the width necessary.

The only players at Chelsea worth looking at are Azpilicueta and Kante - with no Champions League revenue they could be persuaded to sell for a reasonable rate.
 
A front 3 of Sanchez, Lukaku and Willian is average imo. Doesn't fill you with any confidence at all for the new season. And we may be letting Martial leave who is a superior talent to all 3 of them... we're not catching City by pursuing players like Willian. Even Liverpool. Look at Salah, Mane and the goals they score and the assists they make. Willian isn't going to bring these levels of productivity.
 
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VancouverUtdFan said:
He’s turning 30


30 being the new 40 on caf
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More to do with him averaging 5 goals a season?? Or that his productivity generally, is very poor. If we let go of a superior talent like Martial for him, then Jose deserves all he gets next season, which will predictably be nothing.
 
Mourinhonista said:
The number of players who can play as wingers isn't too bad, especially after bringing in two new fullbacks, which would free Valencia and Young up. The attack has to be a lot more potent next season, unsure whether more width and options to have would significantly improve the goal/assist output. It remains to be seen whether or not Sanchez can hit about 15 goals, Willian is more of a ball carrier than a scorer of goals, IMO.

The overall age of the squad might not be the problem, but the aformentioned attacking players (Sanchez, Mata) and maybe Willian would only have a few more good years left in them. We'd have lot more old attacking players then young ones, especially if Martial decides to call it a day.
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So we can pack them off to a retirement home of their choosing with the rest of the over 30's? I like this plan.
 
I don't follow the idea that we'd be sacrificing Martial for Willian. Martial seems to prefer left wing, and I think I remember reading that he doesn't want to play right wing. With Sanchez seemingly being nailed on for the left, I would expect Willian would be signed to play RW (that's where he played most for Chelsea is it not?).

I just feel Martial's already been sacrificed for Sanchez so I don't think Willian effects his position here.

We've lacked a proper right winger for a long time and it badly needs addressed, but I'm not so sure Willian is the answer.

A front 3 of Sanchez (29), Willian (30) and Lukaku who is very bulky and not the most mobile, doesn't really look very impressive to me.
 
abdo99 said:
A front 3 of Sanchez, Lukaku and Willian is average imo. Doesn't fill you with any confidence at all for the new season. And we may be letting Martial leave who is a superior talent to all 3 of them... we're not catching City by pursuing players like Willian. Even Liverpool. Look at Salah, Mane and the goals they score and the assists they make. Willian isn't going to bring these levels of productivity.
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You would not have said that this time last year.
 
AP88 said:
Mahrez is going to City to rotate with Sterling and Bernardo on the right - surely he could be convinced to be a catalyst at Old Trafford instead?

Willian just isn’t what I’d look for - he’s an inverter anyway, so while improving the team won’t provide the width necessary.

The only players at Chelsea worth looking at are Azpilicueta and Kante - with no Champions League revenue they could be persuaded to sell for a reasonable rate.
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I'd much prefer that to Willian tbh. He's exactly the player we need, he's proven his ability for several seasons now.
 
Zlatattack said:
You would not have said that this time last year.
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That's probably due to the fact that we thought a top quality forward like Sanchez would bring us up a notch and it hasn't.

At this stage it feels like it doesn't matter who we bring in we will still play exactly the same way.
 
Noc-Z said:
I don't follow the idea that we'd be sacrificing Martial for Willian. Martial seems to prefer left wing, and I think I remember reading that he doesn't want to play right wing. With Sanchez seemingly being nailed on for the left, I would expect Willian would be signed to play RW (that's where he played most for Chelsea is it not?).

I just feel Martial's already been sacrificed for Sanchez so I don't think Willian effects his position here.

We've lacked a proper right winger for a long time and it badly needs addressed, but I'm not so sure Willian is the answer.

A front 3 of Sanchez (29), Willian (30) and Lukaku who is very bulky and not the most mobile, doesn't really look very impressive to me.
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Except Willian is extremely mobile. But he's not got that magical top drawer quality. For example there's no way you'd pick him over peak Nani who was easily better. That's the sort of quality we need IMO. Or what Liverpool have got with Mane. Willian is indeed a good footballer but it would feel like we're settling to be honest.
 
abdo99 said:
A front 3 of Sanchez, Lukaku and Willian is average imo. Doesn't fill you with any confidence at all for the new season. And we may be letting Martial leave who is a superior talent to all 3 of them... we're not catching City by pursuing players like Willian. Even Liverpool. Look at Salah, Mane and the goals they score and the assists they make. Willian isn't going to bring these levels of productivity.
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If we switch the front 3 with liverpool, they will still score plenty. It's how they are coached
 
M4YON said:
That's probably due to the fact that we thought a top quality forward like Sanchez would bring us up a notch and it hasn't.

At this stage it feels like it doesn't matter who we bring in we will still play exactly the same way.
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Yeah it was depressing to see how rubbish he's turned for us. Maybe something will change next season, otherwise come April i'm starting a fund to get a plane and some banners.
 
abdo99 said:
A front 3 of Sanchez, Lukaku and Willian is average imo. Doesn't fill you with any confidence at all for the new season. And we may be letting Martial leave who is a superior talent to all 3 of them... we're not catching City by pursuing players like Willian. Even Liverpool. Look at Salah, Mane and the goals they score and the assists they make. Willian isn't going to bring these levels of productivity.
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Martial still hasn’t proven anything.

To say he is a superior talent than Sanchez is (was?) is absolutely laughable.

I doubt he will ever put in the performances that Sanchez’s has consostently done for a near-decade now.

I think Willian could be a good option. We need a world class attacker - even if Alexis recaptures his former glory.
 
M4YON said:
That's probably due to the fact that we thought a top quality forward like Sanchez would bring us up a notch and it hasn't.

At this stage it feels like it doesn't matter who we bring in we will still play exactly the same way.
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Even with Hazard/CR7/Bale as your front 3 you will still play exactly the same, and Mou will moan about their lack of defensive work.

Willian is exactly what Mou wants as a player. A match in heaven.
 
rotherham_red said:
More to do with him averaging 5 goals a season?? Or that his productivity generally, is very poor. If we let go of a superior talent like Martial for him, then Jose deserves all he gets next season, which will predictably be nothing.
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Yeh. Messi turns 31 this June. No one would care about his age if it's possible to sign him.
 
VancouverUtdFan said:
Real talk.



...this is what I mean when people haven’t seen him play thus don’t know what they’re talking about.
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Goals and assists per minute is a completely useless stat for players that don’t regularly play 90 minutes. Especially when you compare them to players that regularly plays 90 minutes. And even more so when you compare a role player to a star.

Lets say a team needs a late goal so Player X gets in for 5 minutes and scores a goal. Thats a goal every 5 minutes. Crazy that he isn’t a starter because surely 18 goals per match would make them win every game. You get what i mean right...

I think i read that it was Bayern or Pep or both who wouldn’t use stats unless there was video evidence to back it up, because stats can be so misleading. Especially when you use them per minute.
 
The usual trend on the Caf overrating players we are linked with and pretending that they are as good as some want to believe. William is an average bench player at Chelsea, nothing more than that.

Then again I shouldn't be surprised given this forum was all adament that Perisic was a top player with brilliant attributes when we were linked to him. People hailed Morata as this elite striker in Europe when we were linked to him despite in neither cases no indication of such, only when they became linked to us that people on these boards started acting as of they were top players to begin with. Yet here we are they are still the average players they were before being linked to them

Same with William, doesn't matter how much people want to lie to themselves, truth is he's an average player who also happen to be very inconsistent.
 
Santoryo said:
The usual trend on the Caf overrating players we are linked with and pretending that they are as good as some want to believe. William is an average bench player at Chelsea, nothing more than that.

Then again I shouldn't be surprised given this forum was all adament that Perisic was a top player with brilliant attributes when we were linked to him. People hailed Morata as this elite striker in Europe when we were linked to him despite in neither cases no indication of such, only when they became linked to us that people on these boards started acting as of they were top players to begin with. Yet here we are they are still the average players they were before being linked to them

Same with William, doesn't matter how much people want to lie to themselves, truth is he's an average player who also happen to be very inconsistent.
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Your opinion doesn't hold much weight when you purposefully or not fail to spell his name correctly.
 
Santoryo said:
The usual trend on the Caf overrating players we are linked with and pretending that they are as good as some want to believe. William is an average bench player at Chelsea, nothing more than that.

Then again I shouldn't be surprised given this forum was all adament that Perisic was a top player with brilliant attributes when we were linked to him. People hailed Morata as this elite striker in Europe when we were linked to him despite in neither cases no indication of such, only when they became linked to us that people on these boards started acting as of they were top players to begin with. Yet here we are they are still the average players they were before being linked to them

Same with William, doesn't matter how much people want to lie to themselves, truth is he's an average player who also happen to be very inconsistent.
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Are you being sarcastic?
All I remember is folks on here moaning about Perisic, Morata and same with Willian
 
There is definitely a bit of a Jose cult going on these board which has proliferate and become pervasive throughout the 2 years he's spent with us. Things that were valued dearly by supporters of this club are being easily dismissed and the nonsenses we all used to laugh at are being encouraged, all this due to the simple fact that Mourinho is managing our club.

A few years back one wouldn't hear nor even entertain the thought of emphasising on attacking players whom strongest qualities are their defensive contribution rather than their offensive ones, unheard were talks of chosing aged players and masking this siding with referring to them as "experienced" over youth, younger players with tons of prospect. These sort of talks would have gotten anyone laughed at yet here we are after barely spending a few years with Jose and some have already sold out.

Throw away everything the club stand for and spend countless hours and days exerting ridiculous mental gymnastic to defend and explain why tumescent, dross defensive and ugly football should be tolerable, spend months trying to convince people why we shold discard youth for these aging players as if we're some retirement home.

All these ugly beliefs of Mourinho that we use to laugh at are now being tolerated because the we've simply had the unfortunate bad luck of having an incompetent board that put him in charge in the first place and won't rid of him as soon as possible but we'll wait until his very likely and probable implosion and meltdown in the coming year.
 
KingMinger22 said:
Martial still hasn’t proven anything.

To say he is a superior talent than Sanchez is (was?) is absolutely laughable.

I doubt he will ever put in the performances that Sanchez’s has consostently done for a near-decade now.

I think Willian could be a good option. We need a world class attacker - even if Alexis recaptures his former glory.
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Willian isn't a world class attacker though, he's just a glorified Lingard. They even have similar stats this season in similar amount of appearances. He has more experience and is slightly more consistent.

Also, Martial doubled his goal tally from last year, I'd say thats an improvement.
 
Santoryo said:
The usual trend on the Caf overrating players we are linked with and pretending that they are as good as some want to believe.
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Another who hasn’t seen Willian play.

Probably part of the lot who called Matic and Lukaku terrible signings as well.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Willian isn't a world class attacker though, he's just a glorified Lingard. They even have similar stats this season in similar amount of appearances. He has more experience and is slightly more consistent.

Also, Martial doubled his goal tally from last year, I'd say thats an improvement.
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Thanks for stating the obvious, because whoever gets Willian won’t be getting him for his goal scoring ability.

...comparing Willian to Jesse? That sums up your expertise regarding Willian.


And Martial got replaced by Alexis. He is expendable and far too inconsistent.
 
VancouverUtdFan said:
Thanks for stating the obvious, because whoever gets Willian won’t be getting him for his goal scoring ability.

...comparing Willian to Jesse? That sums up your expertise regarding Willian.


And Martial got replaced by Alexis. He is expendable and far too inconsistent.
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Can't compare him to Lingard, can't compare him to Salah, Mane, Sterling or Sane. Who should we compare him to then, Willian expert?
 
Santoryo said:
There is definitely a bit of a Jose cult going on these board which has proliferate and become pervasive throughout the 2 years he's spent with us. Things that were valued dearly by supporters of this club are being easily dismissed and the nonsenses we all used to laugh about are being encouraged, all this due to the simple fact that Mourinho is managing our club.

A few years back one wouldn't hear nor even entertain the thought of emphasising on attacking players whom strongest qualities are their defensive contribution rather than their offensive ones, unheard were talks of chosing aged players and masking this siding with referring to them as "experienced" over youth, younger players with tons of prospect. These sort of talks would have gotten anyone laughed at yet here we are after barely spending a few years with Jose and some have already sold out.

Throw away everything the club stand for and spend countless hours and days exerting ridiculous mental gymnastic to defend amd explain why tumescent, dross defensive and ugly football should be tolerable, spend months trying to convince people why we shold discard youth for these aging players as if we're some retirement home.

All these ugly beliefs of Mourinho that we use to laugh at are now being tolerated because the we've simply had the unfortunate bad luck of having an incompetent board that put him in charge in the first place and won't rid of him as soon as possible but we'll wait until is very likely and probable implosion and meltdown in the coming year.
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Mourinho has an excellent CV and had also won the league title with Chelsea in recent years. If the board was, as you suggest, incompetent in hiring such a manager, then in my opinion you have set ridiculously high standards or you are part of some anti-Jose cult who was never going to give Mourinho a chance regardless. It is very easy to criticise with hindsight, but at the time, the decision was based on bringing in a manager who would guarantee CL football at a minimum and push the club to compete for PL/ CL honours eventually. Signing Mourinho was therefore a reasonable decision, by no means incompetent.

Also, since the Moyes fiasco, the board have improved. They showed a ruthlessness to sack Moyes after season one of contracted six despite the criticism in the media. They showed a ruthlessness to sack LvG, immediately after winning the FA Cup. Therefore your assertion that the board won't act as soon as possible contradicts how it has behaved in the recent past. They also resisted hiring the inexperienced Ryan Giggs despite pressure from Man Utd fans and pundits. Furthermore, they backed the manager, particularly LvG and Mourinho.

In my opinion the issues we are going through are independent of the board now because its been several years since Moyes. These issues stem from Mourinho's poor tactics, (or lack of with regards to attack) and his erratic man management over a group of several players including Fellaini, Zlatan, Lukaku, Martial, and Shaw.
 
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SS said:
How often do you watch Willian then?
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Enough to know the type of player he is and not pretend like some are doing.

(I used to watch a lot of Chelsea games the past years. This season didn’t have enough time but still watched more than 10 games)
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Not at all. You responded to something very obvious with something very silly.


Really? Is he as good as Salah, KDB, Hazard etc? Or was I right that he's not a top player? So I do like Willian. He's a good footballer. But he's not brilliant. I'd rather see us for more of what Liverpool have been doing signing the likes of Mane, Firmino, Salah etc. all better than Willian and all 24/25 and at the right age to 'explode'. We don't have to go for solid and dependable. We could go for brilliance as well. He's be a good addition for sure but we should be aiming higher.
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Felipe Anderson is basically a young Willian. but no one on here rates him like no one really rated Salah
 
Cheekiey said:
Felipe Anderson is basically a young Willian. but no one on here rates him like no one really rated Salah
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Firmino, Mane, Salah will not be considered as UTD quality in this forum before they joined Liverpool. I still remembered LVG want to bring in Mane before and people here wanted Bale.

Let's be honest to yourself and just go for the proven world class player, and you can afford it being the richest club in the world. Bale will be available according to media.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Except Willian is extremely mobile. But he's not got that magical top drawer quality. For example there's no way you'd pick him over peak Nani who was easily better. That's the sort of quality we need IMO. Or what Liverpool have got with Mane. Willian is indeed a good footballer but it would feel like we're settling to be honest.
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Yeah it's Lukaku who I think is bulky and not very mobile. My concerns with Sanchez and Willian are age. I know 29/30- is not exactly retirement age - certainly a goalkeeper/defender etc. can play well into his 30s. But wingers seem to have quite a steep drop off in output around this age. For example Giggs couldn't have played to the age he did if he stayed on the wing and didn't adapt and move position. I just think buying wingers who are 29/30 and only going to decline with us is not a great way to go. A 30 year old defender? Maybe...at a push. Aren't there managers who have a general policy of not signing guys at this age?
 
I like Willian, and I like Son and happy, positive players like that. But a trio of Sanchez - Lukaku - Willian does not look like a Champions League-winning attacking unit. It might sound unrealistic and arrogant, but isn't that the level we want to be at next year? I know, I know - a Mourinho-side will not win the CL or league in England based on 100's of goals, but still. The competition is so incredibly high everywhere and that trio, apart from Sanchez based on former levels, will scare absolutely nobody. You need at least two players with flair and output, this season none of these players have had great output. To be fair, I am not sure who I would want on our right side next year. I like Willian, but more in a sense of having him come off the bench and to provide great cover.
 
James Peril said:
I like Willian, and I like Son and happy, positive players like that. But a trio of Sanchez - Lukaku - Willian does not look like a Champions League-winning attacking unit. It might sound unrealistic and arrogant, but isn't that the level we want to be at next year? I know, I know - a Mourinho-side will not win the CL or league in England based on 100's of goals, but still. The competition is so incredibly high everywhere and that trio, apart from Sanchez based on former levels, will scare absolutely nobody. You need at least two players with flair and output, this season none of these players have had great output. To be fair, I am not sure who I would want on our right side next year. I like Willian, but more in a sense of having him come off the bench and to provide great cover.
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Would you have said a front 3 of Mane, Firminio and Salah was a potential CL winning front 3 last year?

In fact I'd wager most United fans would have said a front 3 of Sanchez, Lukaku and Willian is a much better trio.
 
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