Will the greatest player in your nation's history change hands in your lifetime?

Fortitude

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I'm not Dutch, but I have been on a Cruyff binge of late as the guy is an ceaselessly fascinating individual both as a player and tactical mind.

What I thought with certainty is that Holland will never have a better player; one that is better than Cruyff. This thought quickly mapped to Germany and Beckenbauer and then started to spiral, as these things do when your mind wants to do anything but put you to sleep on the day before an important event -_-.

Anyway, it kind of dawned on me that there's only a smattering of nations who even have the hint of a possibility of toppling their greatest ever player any time soon - Norway, for example, have contenders and so to do Spain (you can figure out who yourself), but if my middle-of-the-night numbers are correct, 90%+ nations have no chance, not with the crop active, at least.

What I want to know is, from your perspective, is it possible for your nation's best to be bettered before you pop your clogs?

I can't draw consensus on every nation - I'm not sure who the Irish actually deem their best player? (Keane? McGrath? Brady? Giles?), or even the Italians (I'm guessing Baresi?) but in nearly every instance, I think their best is basically immortal and untouchable as far as what is there to challenge them. Is this correct?
 
Norn Iron - George Best. They'll never have a better player than him.

Ireland, you could pick Roy Keane, Giles, Brady or McGrath. It's personal choice between those, for me it's Keane, but I don't think those 4 will ever be topped.

Scotland - would surely be Law, Dalglish or Souness?
 
The problem with Ireland is that it would be super hard to pick one to begin with given that most Irish fans of a certain age view Jack Charltons teams of the early 90s with happy nostalgia and could pick any one of the squad.

But even picking either Keane, then no its unlikely someone will surpass them anytime soon or in the future.
 
It's happened with Messi and Maradona - so anythings possible. Though I think once the incumbent dies is it becomes a much more difficult perception to change.

Luckily for Messi he had already started that conversation well before Maradona died.
 
I think it's possible. You'd have Law and Dalglish at the top with the former winning the big individual award but I wouldn't say either transcended football in the way other nations best footballers have.
 
Fortitude said:
I'm not Dutch, but I have been on a Cruyff binge of late as the guy is an ceaselessly fascinating individual both as a player and tactical mind.

What I thought with certainty is that Holland will never have a better player; one that is better than Cruyff. This thought quickly mapped to Germany and Beckenbauer and then started to spiral, as these things do when your mind wants to do anything but put you to sleep on the day before an important event -_-.

Anyway, it kind of dawned on me that there's only a smattering of nations who even have the hint of a possibility of toppling their greatest ever player any time soon - Norway, for example, have contenders and so to do Spain (you can figure out who yourself), but if my middle-of-the-night numbers are correct, 90%+ nations have no chance, not with the crop active, at least.

What I want to know is, from your perspective, is it possible for your nation's best to be bettered before you pop your clogs?

I can't draw consensus on every nation - I'm not sure who the Irish actually deem their best player? (Keane? McGrath? Brady? Giles?), or even the Italians (I'm guessing Baresi?) but in nearly every instance, I think their best is basically immortal and untouchable as far as what is there to challenge them. Is this correct?
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In the 90s you could’ve made this argument word for word for Argentina and Maradona.

Then Messi came along.

You just never know what’s around the corner.
 
I don’t think we’ll produce a better player than Litmanen for at least half a decade.
 
In a lot of countries it's not so clear cut who the GOAT is. Off the top of my head: Spain, France, Norway, Denmark, South Korea, Japan etc. Then there are debatable ones like England (although I'm sure that most would agree that it's Sir Bobby).
 
English but also now an Aussie.

England's greatest for me is Sir Bobby. That could change, but it'd take some player to do it. He is widely regarded as one of the greatest European players of all time, European footballer of the year (and twice runner up), World Cup and European Cup winner, and an absolute gentleman to boot.

Australian greatest? Maybe Kewell for talent. That will change I reckon. Football is getting more and more popular, matter of time before a top class player makes it from here.
 
it happened already. Suker was rather easy pick in late 90's, now vast majority will say it's Modric.
 
Hong Kong's greatest player ever was Cheung Chi Doy who has been our only player playing the top flight of English football (or any of the big 5 European leagues).

I think it will never change hand in my lifetime
 
England is sir Bobby. That could change if we win the World Cup. There has been a few players who have had the ability/ club career to surpass it. Rooney comes to mind. Possibly Jude right now.
 
dazjoe said:
English but also now an Aussie.

England's greatest for me is Sir Bobby. That could change, but it'd take some player to do it. He is widely regarded as one of the greatest European players of all time, European footballer of the year (and twice runner up), World Cup and European Cup winner, and an absolute gentleman to boot.

Australian greatest? Maybe Kewell for talent. That will change I reckon. Football is getting more and more popular, matter of time before a top class player makes it from here.
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For Aus, I thought it'd be Cahill for his longevity, no? Kewell definitely had a higher peak in club football during his Leeds stint. Was gutted when he chose Liverpool over us.
 
I think there is a difference between being the greatest and the best. Just like there's QBs who are better than Tom Brady mechanically, he's the GOAT.

I can't really compare Cruyff vs others because he played so long ago. In his generation, he was the best. But the game evolves, so do athletes. Cruyff played against milkmen, butchers and people who smoked and drank, with all due respect.

He is the greatest, the impact he had on Dutch football and football in general can never be understated. In my opinion Robben or Van Basten is the best Dutch player of all time. Wouldn't mind people saying Bergkamp either.
 
Already has done twice in my lifetime - Giggs and now Bale (though John Charles was well before my time, it's possible folks old enough to have seen him still have him top).

Very tough to see where the next one is coming from. Here's hoping it's Gabriele Biancheri!
 
Denmarks best ever player was Michael Laudrup or Allan Simonsen.. I dont think there will be anyone who will be better in my time.. Not anyone from our current players will get anywhere near
 
ROFLUTION said:
Personally I don't see it. It's like finnish football has suffered a painful death ever since Mörkö appeared in the Moomins.
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To be fair we made it to the 2020 Euros for the first time (well the men’s team did, women have done it a few times). But individually we haven’t been able to produce anything close to what Litmanen, Hyypiä, Niemi, Jääskeläinen, Forssell, Tainio & co. were.

I do agree though with your Moomin reference. An obvious correlation.
 
SilentWitness said:
I think it's possible. You'd have Law and Dalglish at the top with the former winning the big individual award but I wouldn't say either transcended football in the way other nations best footballers have.
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Surely it's only relative to Scotland, in this case, and Law is a striking marvel to this day, and Dalglish a leader of two clubs, one of whom was the best around when he was active.

I don't know who was the last truly dominant Scotsman after Dalglish, and I'm starting to get on a bit by now!

I'd think, unless Scottish football has an incredible resurgence, any usurper would have to be of Scottish blood playing in another country or even for another nation i.e. a Mac Allister claiming Scotland instead of Argentina. I don't think there's even a prayer for a better player than Law for Scotland (nor Charlton for England, for that matter).
 
Don't think a player better than Timmy Cahill will come through for us anytime soon. Scoring 50 goals for Australia is ridiculous.
 
diarm said:
In the 90s you could’ve made this argument word for word for Argentina and Maradona.

Then Messi came along.

You just never know what’s around the corner.
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1 player turnover isn't great. There's a lot of nations.

I think most need an absolute glitch in the matrix to better what's there - a relative Messi eventuality repeated.
 
Fortitude said:
Surely it's only relative to Scotland, in this case, and Law is a striking marvel to this day, and Dalglish a leader of two clubs, one of whom was the best around when he was active.

I don't know who was the last truly dominant Scotsman after Dalglish, and I'm starting to get on a bit by now!

I'd think, unless Scottish football has an incredible resurgence, any usurper would have to be of Scottish blood playing in another country or even for another nation i.e. a Mac Allister claiming Scotland instead of Argentina. I don't think there's even a prayer for a better player than Law for Scotland (nor Charlton for England, for that matter).
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Nobody expected someone like Bale though with Wales. Due to the proximity and links to English academies it is quite feasible for a Scottish player to go through an English academy and become a great.

Not that I think it will happen, mind, but it is possible...
 
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I think Croatia might have a tough time getting someone better than Modric in the future.
 
Oranges038 said:
I think Croatia might have a tough time getting someone better than Modric in the future.
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Agree with this.

We were fortunate to have Boban and Šuker as two of the greatest ever but then out of nowhere came Modrić and left both of them so far behind that it's hard to imagine someone better than him in the future although you never know.
 
Who do we have for South Africa? Hmmm. I’m too young to really have noticed what Sono and the likes ever did. So Radebe or McCarthy perhaps? Decent enough chance we can produce someone better, I’d think. But the state of local football here is shite, Sundowns excepted.
 
Ish said:
KdB? Hazard? Lukaku has better international numbers but he’s surely a much inferior player to those two, let alone someone like Kompany.
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Has it passed from Hazard to KdB in like 2/3 seasons? Granted I know nothing of Belgian football history
 
Is there any country not including our own where we can say yes? Which countries are on an upward trajectory? Maybe big population countries who don't have any greats would be a good bet? China, India, even USA.

All seems random to me.

I've got 2 nations I'm eligible for:

England - Requires winning a world cup, 2 of them, or a world cup + Euros. Needs to be a star player for the country and at a giant club with loads of trophies. Someone like Bellingham has a shot at the second part at least, but it's the England part that no English person can be optimistic about.

Estonia - Not much competition at all. Valery Karpin arguably takes it right now but it's very questionable if he counts as he played CIS and Russia, and is currently manager of Russia even though they're not playing. He had a good career in Spain while not winning anything, and was an important player as La Liga runner-up for Sociedad alongside Xabi Alonso.

Other contenders are Mart Poom for being the Derby goalie, Ragnar Klavan for playing (badly) for Liverpool + 4 years at Augsburg in the Bundesliga, 3 in Serie A with Cagliari and winning the Dutch League as a bit part player on loan at AZ Alkmaar. Then there's Andres Oper (top international goalscorer, played for Torpedo Moscow for a bit) or Konstantin Vassiljev (most caps). Thing is, they've been really bad for a while and look to be in decline. Nearest they came to anything was losing the Euro 2012 playoff when Ireland smashed them. Tiny country with a static population, things don't look good.
 
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MiceOnMeth said:
Who is Spain's greatest ever?
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Iniesta or Xavi.

Yamal could surpass them, perhaps not with the amount of CL’s and he may not win a world cup, but baring injuries, and if he keeps that trajectory he’s got 2 decades of football playing career ahead of him.

Iniesta didn’t become a concrete starter for Barcelona until well into his 20’s and Xavi didn’t become “Xavi” until his late 20’s.
So Lamine has a lot going for him, special talent this wee lad.
 
CallyRed said:
I'm intrigued to hear what the Belgians would say. Big Rom?
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Hazard for me.

Probably loads who'll say KDB but hasn't done nearly as much as Hazard for our NT imo and has been the beneficiary of playing under Pep in a stacked team. Prime Hazard was the catalyst for multiple Chelsea titles and our best ever World Cup finish. His decline (and absence from the Euros just now) shows that we're quite an average NT, even with De Bruyne playing. Also fourth in caps for Belgium (Lukaku will overtake him next year, KDB might eventually but uncertain at this point).

It's not out of the realm of possibilities that I'll see a better Belgian player in my lifetime (I'm 30) but don't see it happening in the next 5-10 years with the talent that's currently coming through. Even the likes of Doku, who's also a winger and our most promising youngster at the moment, don't even come remotely close to what Hazard was doing at that age for me.
 
There’s nobody who could stand above a Kaiser. So I’m not likely to ever witness a change of the guard.
 
I think Xhaka will go down as the best ever Swiss player, once he ends his career.
 
Fortitude said:
Surely it's only relative to Scotland, in this case, and Law is a striking marvel to this day, and Dalglish a leader of two clubs, one of whom was the best around when he was active.

I don't know who was the last truly dominant Scotsman after Dalglish, and I'm starting to get on a bit by now!

I'd think, unless Scottish football has an incredible resurgence, any usurper would have to be of Scottish blood playing in another country or even for another nation i.e. a Mac Allister claiming Scotland instead of Argentina. I don't think there's even a prayer for a better player than Law for Scotland (nor Charlton for England, for that matter).
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Yeah I reckon we will struggle to improve upon that. Law and Dalglish were top 3 in the world at their peak. I don't think we've had a player with a legitimate claim to being in the top 15 in the world since the mid-1980s. Goram probably the closest, and then if you open it up to top 40-50 then peak Barry Ferguson the only one. After that, nobody. Who knows where Gilmour and Doak reach with their careers but it's hard to envisage becoming the best in the world in their position given the competition.
 
Fortitude said:
1 player turnover isn't great. There's a lot of nations.

I think most need an absolute glitch in the matrix to better what's there - a relative Messi eventuality repeated.
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Platini < Zidane
Eusebio < Cristiano Ronaldo
Gento/Suarez < Iniesta

Every player who is the greatest player in their countries history, replaced someone who was the best before them. That’s just how it works.

Expecting it to happen regularly or for all countries to have current or recent players at the stop is unrealistic. Argentina for example could easily go 100 years now without seeing a player to rival Maradona or Messi.

Big countries like Brazil, England, Holland and Germany have been waiting a long time for their best to be matched, but France, Spain, Portugal, Argentina, Belgium, Croatia and France have relatively recent greatest ever players.
 
RobinLFC said:
Hazard for me.

Probably loads who'll say KDB but hasn't done nearly as much as Hazard for our NT imo and has been the beneficiary of playing under Pep in a stacked team. Prime Hazard was the catalyst for multiple Chelsea titles and our best ever World Cup finish. His decline (and absence from the Euros just now) shows that we're quite an average NT, even with De Bruyne playing. Also fourth in caps for Belgium (Lukaku will overtake him next year, KDB might eventually but uncertain at this point).

It's not out of the realm of possibilities that I'll see a better Belgian player in my lifetime (I'm 30) but don't see it happening in the next 5-10 years with the talent that's currently coming through. Even the likes of Doku, who's also a winger and our most promising youngster at the moment, don't even come remotely close to what Hazard was doing at that age for me.
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Love you bro. I will now use this to tell anyone who will listen that all Belgians think Hazard is the greatest Belgian player ever.
 
RobinLFC said:
Hazard for me.

Probably loads who'll say KDB but hasn't done nearly as much as Hazard for our NT imo and has been the beneficiary of playing under Pep in a stacked team. Prime Hazard was the catalyst for multiple Chelsea titles and our best ever World Cup finish. His decline (and absence from the Euros just now) shows that we're quite an average NT, even with De Bruyne playing. Also fourth in caps for Belgium (Lukaku will overtake him next year, KDB might eventually but uncertain at this point).

It's not out of the realm of possibilities that I'll see a better Belgian player in my lifetime (I'm 30) but don't see it happening in the next 5-10 years with the talent that's currently coming through. Even the likes of Doku, who's also a winger and our most promising youngster at the moment, don't even come remotely close to what Hazard was doing at that age for me.
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Interesting thanks, I think I would have to agree. The guy was a genius on the pitch and I'll always appreciate flair players more so. Who would have been Belgium's greatest pre Hazard?
 
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