I think you underestimate Stuttgart a fair bit. They are a great team and if it weren't for us, I think they'd be the best contender Bayern had since Tuchel's Dortmund. Stuttgart is actually really, really remarkable. For years, the only team that had the ambition to control every game they play in and dictate the pace was Bayern. Now we've joined them but Stuttgart is also playing this way - with a team that almost got relegated last season. Ironically, Bayern themselves sort of abandoned that style over the last few years and it seems they're being punished for that.
Will Harry Kane ever win a trophy? | No
- Thread starter Samid
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I think you underestimate Stuttgart a fair bit. They are a great team and if it weren't for us, I think they'd be the best contender Bayern had since Tuchel's Dortmund. Stuttgart is actually really, really remarkable. For years, the only team that had the ambition to control every game they play in and dictate the pace was Bayern. Now we've joined them but Stuttgart is also playing this way - with a team that almost got relegated last season. Ironically, Bayern themselves sort of abandoned that style over the last few years and it seems they're being punished for that.
If you mean in 2024, then no. If you mean since moving to Bayern, then yeah...and no.
He started his Bayern career like a rocket.
Up to the international break in November he had:
BL: 17 goals and 5 assists in 11 games
CL: 4 goals and 2 assists in 4 games
Total: 21 goals and 7 assists in 15 games
1,4 goals/game and 1,87 G+A/game
Since then things have looked very different:
BL: 7 goals and 0 assists in 10 games (2024: 3 goals in 6 games)
CL: 0 goals and 1 assists in 3 games (2024: 0 returns in 1 game)
Total: 7 goals and 1 assist in 13 games (2024: 3 goals and 0 assists in 7 games)
0,54 goals/game and 0,62 G+A/game
Bayern is now 5 points behind Leverkusen in the BL and trailing after the first leg in the CL last 16 against Lazio.... they are also out of the domestic cup.
The trend is...well...not good!
He was on track to crush Lewa's BL record, now it looks very unlikely he get anywhere close to it (Lewa's record: 41 goals in 29 BL games)
Regarding that record... Kane plays almost all matches for Bayern and has 24 goals / 5 assists (1g/a every 64.2minutes). Serhou Guirassy (17g+1a) scores 1g/a every 60.3min, Deniz Undav (14g+5a) every 64.1min. Both play for Stuttgart and usually not together. So Kane's lead in the regard to goals scored is mostly because Stuttgart has two excellent striker and not just one who plays all the time.
The last month he's been shocking.
I'm not saying Stuttgart doesn't play well. They have been playing well this season.
That said:
Let's compare them position for position:
GK
Bayern: Neuer (By many considered best din the world and one top 5-10 of all time)
Stuttgart: Nubel (on loan from Bayern)
Right back:
Bayern: Mazraoui (thew best RB in the league) and they spent 30M on back up Boey in January.
Stuttgart: Vagnoman and Stenzel (I think we can agree this is a step down)
Left back:
Bayern: Alphonso Davies (Would probably walk into any team in the world) and Guerreiro (arguably the second best LB in the league)
Stuttgart: Mittelstadt ...Needless to comment (Sorry Max)
CBs:
Bayern: de Ligt, Upamecano and Kim (Arguably the strongest CB trio in the world (at least top 3)- combined value 185M)
Stuttgart: Ito (loaned out to J-League as late as summer 2022), Zagadou (couldn't break into Dortmund first 11) and Anton (Bought from 2.BL as a 24 year old for 4M)
CMs/DMs:
Bayern: Kimmich (top 3 DM in the world), Goretzka, Laimer (Needless to say, best midfield in the league by a mile)
Stuttgart: Karazor (been with Stuttgaret since 2. BL), Stiller (didn't make the cut at Bayern, given away to Hoffenheim, lost his place there and was sold to Stuttgart last summer for 5M), Dahoud (came this window after not making it at Brighton and before that unhappy about too few minutes at Dortmund)
Wingers and AMs:
Bayern: Gnabry, Sane, Coman, Musiala, Tel, Muller.......
Stuttgart: Fuhrich (played with the Dortmund reserves to he was 23...), Millot (young talent just breaking into the team - could be good though), Lewelling (on loan from Union Berlin)
I mean.
Strikers:
Bayern: Kane (top 3 striker in the world)
Stuttgart: Guirassy (having the season of his life at 27 - has scored 20% of his career goals the last 6 months), Undav (Didn't make it at Brighton - form of his life now)
The difference in quality in every position is not only big, it's very big.
They are and will be too light weight for a long time still to compete with Bayern and a game between these two shouldn't be considered a big game regardless of league position or Stuttgarts form.The match is too unbalanced to make it a big game in 2024. Stuttgart is a team Bayern should easily beat 9 out of 10 times with the squad and resources they have. In a league where the same team has won the last 11 titles and have 2 - 5 times the resources of it's closest competitors there are no big games.
That's my point.
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Obviously, Bayern's team is better but you're both exaggerating their qualities and selling Stuttgart short a bit. Stuttgart has had great scouting for years, they severely underperformed over the past seasons considering the quality of their players. Most of that team is technically strong and score high in terms of football IQ. Bayern on the other hand has declined extremely in comparison to the Heynckes/Guardiola era. Kane and Musiala aside, there really aren't many players that live up to their former standards if any. Maybe Kimmich if he comes down to earth again. But Neuer and Müller are past it and the likes of Goretzka, Davies, Coman, Sané, Gnabry, Upamecano, Kim, de Ligt, Laimer, etc. are simply nowhere near Robben, Ribery, Thiago, Kroos, Alonso, Boateng, Hummels, Lahm, Alaba, etc. Partly, it's logical that they declined a bit since transfers like Robben, Ribery and Thiago are very hard to reproduce with their budget these days and their youth development is letting them down a bit. But it's also because they target different profiles of players with a higher focus on physicality. And what's probably even more important: They lacked any depth. At times they only had 15 players available for matches and only (!) attacking players on the bench. They even had to play Kimmich as a CB once. That's fully on the board. They've corrected those mistakes in the winter break but it was arguably already to late as the injuries had already spiralled out of control.
And then there's also the eye test. I haven't seen a team not named Bayern play football to such a high standard as Stuttgart and Leverkusen are currently playing since Klopp was at Dortmund. The two matches between us were amazing and the best Bundesliga games I've seen for a very, very long time.
He should pick up a league winners medal during his time in Germany no problem....But he does remind me a little bit of Ruud when he was banging them in, yet the team as a whole was still underperforming and his goals didn't earn him the medals you would normally expect.
You really are overrating current Bayern a lot.
GK: Neuer has been injured a long time and since coming back often has to deal with little pain and injuries. Still a good keeper but far from his best by now. Nübel on current form is not really worse.
RB: Mazraoui is a point for you, Boey wasn't signed at the time of the match I mentioned and which we are discussing here. So Laimer often had to fill in during the season, who is good, but not great. He is not far ahead of Stuttgart's options.
LB: Davies is out of form and especially unreliable while defending. The sextuple winning Davies would walk into any team in the world, the one we see in the last one or two years surely not. Gueirrero is a good player, but also had to deal with a lot of injuries and just didn't get into form the whole season. Meanwhile Mittelstädt plays his best ever season.
CB: Yes, Bayern has a great trio. If they are all fit. Occasionally Goretzka had to play CB because they weren't. Bayerns squad just was too thin. Still in any way better than what Stuttgart have.
CM/DM: Whoever calls the overmotivated headless chicken Kimmich a DM doesn't watch him closely. There is a reason why Tuchel publicly wished for a "holding six" like Palinha, because Kimmich just isn't a DM. So it keeps being unbalanced. While individually being very good players, it's very hard to find a good mix in this midfield and it often fails. There is a reason why Tuchel didn't try to dominate the midfield against a Stuttgart midfield that is just more balanced and consists of players who evolved slowly together into their current quality. Again Dahoud doesn't count here, wasn't signed then.
Wingers/AM: Yes, Bayern is definitely better.
Striker: Kane is an established top striker for almost a decade now, but Guirassy and Undav both developed over the last years and now are performing basically on par with Kane. Which isn't criticism of Kane, it's just that he isn't the only top striker in the BL right now.
Should the comparison between the teams be this close regarding the individual quality and the available money? Surely not, you are right in that regard. But nonetheless it was a match were Bayern needed to make a statement win, because it decided between "Bayern is putting pressure on an amazing Leverkusen and will be there to catch them at first sign of weakness" and "Bayern is not even second anymore, this season is an unmitigated disaster". And they clearly won that match.
Problem is, it was the only true "statement win" this season when one was expected.
It was expected in Leverkusen (to take the lead) and they miserably lost.
It was expected after the cup exit (and they did not do anything special)
It was expected after the 1-5 loss in Frankfurt (and they didn't put United to the sword as they usually would have in this situation in earlier seasons).
Just one of the reasons I don’t care for him. Swore on his daughters life he scored a goal he clearly didn’t score
Would be a right laugh if he went his first season in Germany trophyless with it being the surest of sure things.
You are correct. Dortmund in 2010-11 and 2011-2012. They also won two in the row in the mid-90s.
(That 2013 Champions League final between Bayern and Dortmund was really something. Relentless play and very high technical ability from both teams.)
i agree. Going to bayern and still ended trophyless is just hilarious. Only thing that couldve made it better wouldve been spurs crushing it and winning the premier league or something.Just one of the reasons I don’t care for him. Swore on his daughters life he scored a goal he clearly didn’t score
Would be a right laugh if he went his first season in Germany trophyless with it being the surest of sure things.
He is trying his damn hardest not to win a trophy.
How does somebody uncurse themselves?
Pray?
Anyone see his miss first half? It was so bad you really do have to question his mentality when the pressure is really on
Who/what is a Bochum?
Why is no-one saying he ruins teams as Bayern look set to miss out on their first title in 13 years
That ideology that a single player can cost a whole club looks nonsensical now doesn’t it.
That ideology that a single player can cost a whole club looks nonsensical now doesn’t it.
Chap is jinxed
Oh no, he's still world class. He's still the same as he always has been, he's always disappeared in the big games.
Not this season
Poor Kane wants to come back
Do you think he’ll win one next season though?
His timing isn't great that's for sure.
Beautiful moment after the game, when Müller was distraught and Kane came over to console that you get used to losing pretty quickly.
Kane is a great striker.. poor guy.. deserves to win something.. Bayern will win the league soon though.. maybe not this season, but they arent going away.
You would imagine they'll win it next season after Tuchel gets sacked and Alonso moves on from Leverkusen.
My crystal ball is undergoing maintenance. Still it's more likely than not that Bayern will win *something* next season.
Kane is brilliant player and seems like a decent guy as well but it will be hilarious if Bayern fail to win Bundesliga for first time in 12 years just after he joined them
Reminds me of Sheringham when he joined United. He had that season where he was bantered off because he came here for trophies.
Kane is brilliant player and seems like a decent guy as well but it will be hilarious if Bayern fail to win Bundesliga for first time in 12 years just after he joined them
Esp after he has been absolutely brilliant for them
Bayern aren't worse this season than they were last season - it's just Leverkusen that is having a blinder. Last season Bayern won the league with 71 points, they look well on course to better that - but this season that wont be good enough
“If he goes to United he makes them title challengers immediately”
We would be top of the league
Clearly not the case though.
While Hojlund goes to Bayern
The biggest risk with Kane has always been his age - he's played a ridiculous amount of games due to a lack of rotation from Southgate, Mourinho, Conte etc; and his gangly awkward style isn't actually a plus, contrary to the oft mentioned notion that he doesn't rely on his physicality, as it'll be putting undue stress onto parts of his body.
The gamble is can you get enough out of him before his body falls apart. It's why I think Spurs sold at the right time and we did better going for an alternative striker (Osimhen would've been ideal but Hojlund looks a lot better than expected). For Bayern it isn't a bad deal since they have a lot of attacking talent and can gamble big money on a striker.
I do feel somewhat sorry for Kane though. Mourinho, Conte, Southgate and now Tuchel successively - he's speed running the highest tier of negative, dull football managers.
The gamble is can you get enough out of him before his body falls apart. It's why I think Spurs sold at the right time and we did better going for an alternative striker (Osimhen would've been ideal but Hojlund looks a lot better than expected). For Bayern it isn't a bad deal since they have a lot of attacking talent and can gamble big money on a striker.
I do feel somewhat sorry for Kane though. Mourinho, Conte, Southgate and now Tuchel successively - he's speed running the highest tier of negative, dull football managers.
Didn‘t he shoot 24 goals in his first 20 games or so at Bayern? You realize they had by far the best attacking stats with Leverkusen overperforming and Bayern underachieving based on stats until 1-2 weeks ago? You sure he complained about his manager there? He likely wonders why he didn‘t notice how toxic that Bayern squad really is and why he decided to go there.
But I guess he didn‘t have that many options. No EPL club because of his Tottenham narrative (and City being all set) , Real wanted (and finally get) Mbappé. Barca is a shitshow and had Lewa. Italian clubs, if even interesting for him, wouldn’t be able to afford him. PSG..well, I’d rather try my luck at Bayern too I think.
Signing that long ass contract back then with Levy really took a toll on his career - although I do appreciate players that don‘t necessarily have a problem to stay at a smaller club to make a difference there. Part of the problem nowadays is that a few super clubs hoard most of the elite players while those were more evenly distributed back in the 90s which made football more competitive. Speaking globally here, not about England in particular.
A fictional one maybe.