Lack of movement. For example.. Where has that quick triangle pass backward and direct forward gone. Ten Hag used at this Ajax and it looked like it was implemented a lot when we played quicker with more movement. Haven't seen it been used for a long time..
Why is our passing so garbage?
- Thread starter klayton88
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Whenever we play a high octane team and crumble into pieces, I always wondered why can't our team be the high octane team ffs..
Watching Newcastle or other smaller clubs bully us off the pitch and thinking why are we not capable of that too. Surely our squad is on a different tier to theirs. And it wasn't like Newcastle were playing Stoke-like football, they had a litany of clear cut chances off incisive football. So if we clearly have the better squad and budget, what exactly is the underlying issue here? Coaching? Mentality?
I've seen people saying that we need more players. I agree, but do we really need to sign more quality players to be able to beat that Newcastle team?
He should move Martinez into the double pivot together with Sabitzer inorder for us to control games till Casemiro returns.
I would say we was coping with that much better when casa and eriksen/fred were in form in the middle of the park. Without casa and eriksen we look very average again. ( I know both have had poor games for us but on the whole been very good)
Against Newcastle our passing was back to last season levels and it was very much like watching a game from last season. Fatigue and rubbish mentality of some players is now starting to show.
We also have nobody holding the ball up. Weghorst for all his effort is very poor. We knew that though he was always a stop gap.
You put too much faith in coaches. He has improved United in mentality and positionally. But there's only so much you can improve a players ability.
If you want a possession based team you need possession based players. Even our goalkeeper needs replacing.
Are there still people out there who think a manager can improve a players passing ability?
It is all about moving, positioning, awareness and decision-making. We have too many bystanders, they are looking and waiting for something to happen. For example McT, he has no idea, where he has to stand and how to move out of a deckungsschatten (?cover shadow?). Players like Fernandes are trapped over and over again, because of our (his own) positioning and slow and bad decision-making.
Most of our players look like they pass the ball not to progress the play, but because if they don't get rid of it, they'll lose it, so the pass either does not find a player or puts someone else in a position where they're not ready to receive the ball, that recipient usually is poor at taking care of the ball himself.
This problem was magnified when we played Maguire Lindelof and AwB. Varane Martinez and Dalot are better than the former 3 but when Eriksen and Case are not playing Scott Fred and Sabitzer are not good enough to take care of the ball, Fred's first touch leaves the ball 5-8 yards away from him, and that's in the worst possible direction.
Add Bruno's gung ho approach to it, the, what I can only assume, instructions given to Rashford that he has to create goal scoring opportunities and play direct and Wout's incapability to hold the ball up, and we look like this.
Our wingers don't help either Antony is incapable of stretching play and either loses the ball or just gives it back to someone else who then loses it and Sancho who seems like he has no interest in imposing himself on the game and all he does everytime is drop a shoulder and pass it infield to a technically incapable midfielder. It's just a mess that's compounded with lots of players who cannot take care of the ball.
This problem was magnified when we played Maguire Lindelof and AwB. Varane Martinez and Dalot are better than the former 3 but when Eriksen and Case are not playing Scott Fred and Sabitzer are not good enough to take care of the ball, Fred's first touch leaves the ball 5-8 yards away from him, and that's in the worst possible direction.
Add Bruno's gung ho approach to it, the, what I can only assume, instructions given to Rashford that he has to create goal scoring opportunities and play direct and Wout's incapability to hold the ball up, and we look like this.
Our wingers don't help either Antony is incapable of stretching play and either loses the ball or just gives it back to someone else who then loses it and Sancho who seems like he has no interest in imposing himself on the game and all he does everytime is drop a shoulder and pass it infield to a technically incapable midfielder. It's just a mess that's compounded with lots of players who cannot take care of the ball.
Great post, I completely agree.
I mean we’ve all seen how much one player matters to how well we play. That player is Casemiro. Take Guimaraes out of that Newcastle team and see what happens. He’s the glue that knit’s everything together. Casemiro does the same for us. With the added complication that the player who fills in for Casemiro (McTominay) wouldn’t be good enough to play in that position for any of the clubs in the top half of the table. Hence ETH was forced to try and play other players out of position to compensate for McT’s inability to receive and make passes. Lo and behold, the whole house of cards falls down. Top level football is fragile enough. Very fine margins between being on top and falling apart completely. If your central midfield unit goes missing in action that affects every other area of the pitch.
Simple really...too many footballers who are either outright average/poor in possession (Fred, Weghorst, McTominay De Gea) or who are high-risk/high-reward types who lose the ball frequently (Rashford, Anthony, Fernandes).
Without Casemiro and Eriksen, we also badly lack that CM you can hit with eveŕy 2nd pass to keep the ball moving. Every good team needs one of those. Bruno G. did it for Newcastle at the weekend and we badly missed it
Without Casemiro and Eriksen, we also badly lack that CM you can hit with eveŕy 2nd pass to keep the ball moving. Every good team needs one of those. Bruno G. did it for Newcastle at the weekend and we badly missed it
Won't happen but you can see why ten Hag wants FdJ so badly. Would transform this team.
To move the ball quickly you need to be using all your outfield players. Just one who is below standard can make the whole thing break down, either from losing it directly, not being quick enough with their passing, or not moving to receive the ball. We have a few who fit that description. Weghorst is the most obvious and plays every game, whilst McTominay is a frequent culprit and played against Newcastle. Two players like that in there and the gameplan is finished, especially if they play in the centre of the pitch like McTominay (Sabitzer didnt do much either).
We also have players like Bruno, Dalot, and Rashford who can all have their dodgy moments but ordinarily make up for it in other ways.
We also have players like Bruno, Dalot, and Rashford who can all have their dodgy moments but ordinarily make up for it in other ways.
We can outplay them for sure but I don’t think it can happen with just any players and any mental outlook. I’m pretty sure you put Casemiero, Eriksen and Martial in that team under a ETH who hasn’t had this squad chase four comparisons and we at least match them away and dominate them at home. But with shit midfielders, Wout uptop and others like Dalot, Bruno etc in poor form , it made it an uphill struggle.
The only solution imo is to give a ETH time and money (and scouting support) to slowly build a team meant to play a different way. After multiple managers it’s clear it can’t be done through coaching alone.
He’d make a difference, but I think you need 4-5 players who are a big step up on the ball. I’d say 2 CMs, a CF, and a RB.
We do not have the personnel. Simple as that. We have two good passers of the ball who play regularly. Martinez and Eriksen. That's it. Iqbal is another great passer of the ball but he never plays. So yeah, that is the predicament we find ourselves in. It is why we get outplayed by basically everybody. Because we cannot control games. That is why we need at the minimum two central midfielders who are comfortable on the ball and can control games at a high level.
Definitely a modern style GK too
Amen and that's why it's staggering there isn't talk of signing two midfielders in the summer
People swore Scott McTominay would be a better passer because ETH would have him doing proper passing drills to improve
Also for the record, being a good passer isn't just about completing passes or creating chances. It's about how you complete the pass. Playing it onto the proper foot of the player receiving the ball, at the right pace, leading players onto the pass so they can continue forward momentum. It's little stuff that makes a huge difference and is evident with the top teams that you see but not with us. Licha is excellent at this part of the game, he's brilliant at playing the pass into the perfect area and right pace to make the next players job (often Shaw) easier. For all of his faults, Pogba was world class as well at this. You'd rarely see even on his huge diagonal balls him play it behind the player.
Go watch those two and then watch McT on a break or in space pass it to someone that has to completely stop to receive the ball allowing the defense to get into shape. Makes all the difference.
But can it not be improved upon? Is it simply too late when you are past some age? Or, is it simply a question of managers at top clubs never having enough time to do so, and thus would rather buy the finished product abd be done with it? Even if the marginal gains are better when the player is already a quality passer, the players who are not at ease in possesion could be made to be less crap at it, no?
We've had this group clearly being trained week in, week out in passing drills of all kinds. And yet, the disparity between our best passers and the worst is still as huge as ever.
Yet we are still struggling to be more comfortable in possession. Even if we did expect to be swarmed by Newcastle's pressing all around the pitch, our midfield stand-ins should surely have been able to not completely soil the bed while attempting to string two passes together when not playing absolutely safe. But that was apparently too much to ask.
We've had this group clearly being trained week in, week out in passing drills of all kinds. And yet, the disparity between our best passers and the worst is still as huge as ever.
Yet we are still struggling to be more comfortable in possession. Even if we did expect to be swarmed by Newcastle's pressing all around the pitch, our midfield stand-ins should surely have been able to not completely soil the bed while attempting to string two passes together when not playing absolutely safe. But that was apparently too much to ask.
Great? Really?! What are you basing that opinion on?
It's probably our 2nd highest priority to sign a press-resistant midfielder to play alongside Casemiro.
It would be the first priority for me, as desperate as we are for a striker...
Casemiro and de Gea today, just wow. Sancho as well.
Our ball retention is genuinely embarrassing. It defies belief we can be that bad at passing the ball, at home, against a team flirting with relegation in their domestic league.
This is not something 1 ball playing midfielder can fix. You can count on one hand the number of players we have that you can trust to keep possession of the ball.
This is not something 1 ball playing midfielder can fix. You can count on one hand the number of players we have that you can trust to keep possession of the ball.
To be honest, one midfielder simply won't fix the problem. Even if we had De Jong today we would have still lost possession as we have too many players in the build up that can be careless with the ball.
And I really dont think this problem will be fixed anytime soon. The reason is because we arent looking to replace some of these players that can be careless with the ball as they arre actually goo and rated by Eth eg Bruno, Casemiro De Gea, Varane
And I really dont think this problem will be fixed anytime soon. The reason is because we arent looking to replace some of these players that can be careless with the ball as they arre actually goo and rated by Eth eg Bruno, Casemiro De Gea, Varane
As has been said by some on here, the minimum need is three midfielders that can pass and can control games but i'd do with two this summer. If we go into next season like this, it is going to be worse than last season.
Atrocious in possession. Utterly incompetent in the first phase of the build. Terrible passing.
I don't even know what's needed anymore.
I don't even know what's needed anymore.
A press-resistant baller to partner Casemiro. A technically proficient right-back. A centre-forward at least as assured on the ball as Martial is. A goalkeeper with excellent distribution.
In the long-term, we'll probably have to phase out Bruno but for now we can't afford that.
I am not entirely sure if this is down to individuals at this point. Sevilla was not really pressing us crazy, they had a good shape but we had VERY technical team out there.
IMO Sabitzer and Bruno are playing too high in the build up phase. The only player dropping deep is Antony. This isn't enough to progress the ball smoothly.
I find it weird but Eriksen is the only player who works deep alongside Casemiro. Seems like all the rest are playing much higher, certainly looks like ETH instructions.
IMO Sabitzer and Bruno are playing too high in the build up phase. The only player dropping deep is Antony. This isn't enough to progress the ball smoothly.
I find it weird but Eriksen is the only player who works deep alongside Casemiro. Seems like all the rest are playing much higher, certainly looks like ETH instructions.
It's not that hard to figure out really.
Of our starting back seven today (De Gea, AWB, Varane, Martinez, Malacia, Casemiro and Bruno), the majority are either not all that good on the ball or not possession-orientated players. So you start replacing the weakest of those, keeping the ones who offer most in other ways.
For most people that would point to improving at CM, RB and GK first, in whatever order of priority you like.
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at least people are starting to realize why we need 2 more quality midfielders.I've sang this song for months now, others have labelled me a opposition fan, for calling out our Midfield issues.
But my stand remains, if Ten Hag doesn't sort out our midfield control issues, one day the team will collapse and the players will throw him under the bus, and it might be next season.
Our performing players like Licha,Rashy, Case might be out of form next season and results may unravel quite quickly when control is not there.
He needs to find 2 genuine midfielders.. that's all. He will upgrade this team immensely, if not such today's games will always be with him.
I will judge him by how he solves the Midfield control, without control we cant be consistent, and without consistency we can't win any major trophies. You cant be 90 points team when you can't control a football game in 2 months.
Same same problems Ole had, Ten Hag has, midfield control and structure. Hopefully he will solve it.
I don't disagree but De Jong or someone of that ilk will take some of the pressure off Casemiro. The same for replacing De Gea which should help our defenders more.
For years and years we’ve been a team with very little emphasis on possession, it will take more time, changes in mentality, decision making and new players to fix it.
We are still at our best playing quick transitions and counter attacking, when some of those passes start go astray we can still be overrun by virtually anyone we come up against.
We are still at our best playing quick transitions and counter attacking, when some of those passes start go astray we can still be overrun by virtually anyone we come up against.
United were never a possession based, passing team, its not in your history.
Ferguson had you playing good transitional high tempo football with lots of combinations out wide. I don't get why every team wants to play like Barcelona or Arsenal nowadays.
Ferguson had you playing good transitional high tempo football with lots of combinations out wide. I don't get why every team wants to play like Barcelona or Arsenal nowadays.
We have to modernise wing combination play like City. Annoyingly enough they have some sort of formula how to play in each of their wing that works really well.
You see Mahrez, Sterling, Grealish, Bernardo who isn't actually possession based players playing tiki taka there. Nobody can take the ball from them, because they have that tactics nailed on. It may take years for us to finally achieve that.
People aren't expecting us to play like Barcelona. That's an extreme.
We're asking for a minimum standard of passing. We had Scholes and Carrick as the CM's for years. We've just spent the last two years with McFred.
You see the difference?
That's not tactics. They're just better players.
We have no build up players and we’re now being linked to an Eredivisie midfielder who has 80% passing accuracy. I’m nervous about us not fixing this gaping hole in our side
Because you can't be successful in this era without being excellent at ball retention. Teams that crumble when pressed have a relatively low ceiling. Even if you mainly want to hurt the opponent in quick transitions, your players must be comfortable on the ball in a way too many of our players aren't.