Why is everyone so certain that DDG will be a starter under ETH?

VanDeBank said:
You're mispresenting the Spain NT situation to fit your agenda.

It was reported Enrique feared Dave's ego was too big to sit on the bench.
And this isn't unheard of with regards to NT GKs. De Boer told CIllessen to feck off because he feared he would moan being no 2. Michels (or was it Happel?) had done the same.

We don't have Brentford's keeper, and getting him would still not be Enrique's priority if he'd inherit Telles, Maguire and McTominay as starters.
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My agenda is Manchester United.

Where was it reported about Enrique fearing de Gea's ego whilst he sat on the bench?

He benched him because it was reported (i posted the link at the time) that Luis Enrique values two traits in a keeper, and those traits were command of the area and distribution, which de Gea fails at.
Shot-stopping alone is pointless if you fail at the aforementioned attributes in a approach where the aim is to play in the opponent's half. The keeper in such a approach is the 11th out field player. So a proactive keeper is necessary if the aim is to play a proactive brand of football and not a reactive keeper.

I'm sure ten Hag will attempt to coach him to be effective as the 11th outfield player, but he won't stay patient for long.
 
I doubt that he amount of shots we face will dimminish overnight, and DDG is a fantastic stopper. An upgrade would need to take that into consideration.

But this is a really good point. Maybe we face so many shots because of him?
WolfInSharp'sClothing said:
Ralf Rangnick coming out and saying that Goalkeeper is the only position that you don't need to strengthen makes me seriously doubt his judgement on modern football.

De Gea is an all time great of Man United and the Premier League, there is no doubt about that. But he's much more of an old-fashioned shot-stopper than a modern day 'sweeper-keeper'.

Of all the other traditional top 6 teams, their goalkeeper's 'sweeping actions' for this season are all amongst the top 10 (Alisson 25, Lloris 22, Ramsdale 20, Ederson 17, Mendy 15).

De Gea is 16th on 6.

Until this season, I hadn't really seen what a difference having a modern 'sweeper-keeper' could make. At the start of this season, my team Wolves got rid of Portugal's legendary goalkeeper Rui Patricio and replaced him with an uncapped Portuguese player in Jose Sa. Believe me, this didn't go down very well at all at the time.

Patricio was another goalkeeper in that old-fashioned shot-stopper mould. He was great for us, but there was a stat to show that he was the goalkeeper that left his line the fewest times in the Premier League during his time here. Ideal for Nuno's tactics of sitting in and counter-attacking, but less suited to a team trying to push higher up the pitch.

Sa changed this, how wrong we all were about him!

For the early part of the season, Sa's sweeping from goalkeeper transformed how we had been playing under Nuno and pushed us much further up the pitch. He even got an assist with his fast kicked passes. Yes, we have other issues at the moment with our forward players, but goalkeeper is far from a problem for us. Sa is a modern, sweeper-keeper who has been taking many plaudits this season for how he has been performing. He is top for 'goalkeeper sweeping actions' with 30 for this season so far.

As great as De Gea has been for you over the years, I think his goalkeeping style might be holding you back a bit now.
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Rangnick is also a "modern" gegenpressing manager who prefer GK good at his feet and coming out of the line to do sweeper roles.
He has been watching both DDG and Henderson in training everyday. And yet he made DDG undisputed No.1. Hence, next season I predict that it will still be DDG to be No.1 with ETH.

Man Utd defensive problems this season was very little about GK issues but rather the comical defending especially our CBs and CDMs. We need to solve more pressing issues in other areas first rather than worry about GKs.
 
Adnan said:
My agenda is Manchester United.

Where was it reported about Enrique fearing de Gea's ego whilst he sat on the bench?

He benched him because it was reported (i posted the link at the time) that Luis Enrique values two traits in a keeper, and those traits were command of the area and distribution, which de Gea fails at.
Shot-stopping alone is pointless if you fail at the aforementioned attributes in a approach where the aim is to play in the opponent's half. The keeper in such a approach is the 11th out field player. So a proactive keeper is necessary if the aim is to play a proactive brand of football and not a reactive keeper.

I'm sure ten Hag will attempt to coach him to be effective as the 11th outfield player, but he won't stay patient for long.
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Google translate of the original AS article, quoted by The Daily Fail

"On the other hand, the coach's environment provides AS with another detail of the conversation and highlights that at one point De Gea suggested not being called up again, once he knows that his role in the National Team"

Enrique can say whatever he wants in public ("testing out new goalkeepers with the right profile). De Boer said he didn't call Cillesen up because of Covid. It's typical managerial bullshit, like how Ole used to "X player was terrific" after being a ghost on the pitch.

Read through the lines, they don't want moaning no 2s.

So you agree, replacing De Gea won't be happening in his first year? Well then, we agree.
 
Because we are not buying a goalkeeper this transfer window, so who else will start if not DDG? Henderson? No chance.
 
All this talk of distribution and having a keeper that's good with his feet, Pickford rates as one of the best this season for distribution in terms of long passes, yet I wouldn't swap DDG for Pickford at all.

The simple fact is DDG can make decisions that involve him coming off his line - we have seen that against Norwich this season, he can also pass accurately over short distances, so there really isn't much of an issue with DDG when it comes to integrating any potential new possession based philosophy.

I'd wager that DDG will still be our number one next season,
 
VanDeBank said:
Google translate of the original AS article, quoted by The Daily Fail

"On the other hand, the coach's environment provides AS with another detail of the conversation and highlights that at one point De Gea suggested not being called up again, once he knows that his role in the National Team"

Enrique can say whatever he wants in public ("testing out new goalkeepers with the right profile). De Boer said he didn't call Cillesen up because of Covid. It's typical managerial bullshit, like how Ole used to "X player was terrific" after being a ghost on the pitch.

Read through the lines, they don't want moaning no 2s.
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But we can agree that Luis Enrique doesn't rate de Gea as a goalkeeper hence he's dropped him for several other keepers. And i'm on the same page as Luis Enrique and would like to see us evolve as a team by attempting to utilise a proactive keeper and not a reactive keeper.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Rangnick is also a "modern" gegenpressing manager who prefer GK good at his feet and coming out of the line to do sweeper roles.
He has been watching both DDG and Henderson in training everyday. And yet he made DDG undisputed No.1. Hence, next season I predict that it will still be DDG to be No.1 with ETH.

Man Utd defensive problems this season was very little about GK issues but rather the comical defending especially our CBs and CDMs. We need to solve more pressing issues in other areas first rather than worry about GKs.
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Rangnick's mandate was to stabilize the situation while getting the most possible points in half a season. I doubt he wanted to rock the boat anymore than the turbulence he inherited. ETH on the other hand has a much longer term mandate and a manager who looks at the finer details would hardly see de Gea punting half his goal kicks out of play and think this is ok.
 
Adnan said:
But we can agree that Luis Enrique doesn't rate de Gea as a goalkeeper hence he's dropped him for several other keepers. And i'm on the same page as Luis Enrique and would like to see us evolve as a team by attempting to utilise a proactive keeper and not a reactive keeper.
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Agreed, but in my mind that shouldn't come at the cost of having Telles, Maguire, McTominay (as a no 6) anywhere close to the starting line up.
We don't even have one winger that prefer to play on the right, or any other CF options apart from Ronaldo.

It's why I think DDG will be a nailed on starter in the first year.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Rangnick's mandate was to stabilize the situation while getting the most possible points in half a season. I doubt he wanted to rock the boat anymore than the turbulence he inherited. ETH on the other hand has a much longer term mandate and a manager who looks at the finer details would hardly see de Gea punting half his goal kicks out of play and think this is ok.
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Well, if Henderson can do better there is no reason not to start him. In addition, I don't believe Rangnick is the kind of character refuse to rock the boat. He even benched Ronaldo.
 
VanDeBank said:
Agreed, but in my mind that shouldn't come at the cost of having Telles, Maguire, McTominay (as a no 6) anywhere close to the starting line up.
We don't even have one winger that prefer to play on the right, or any other CF options apart from Ronaldo.

It's why I think DDG will be a nailed on starter in the first year.
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That's fair enough.
 
WolfInSharp'sClothing said:
Ralf Rangnick coming out and saying that Goalkeeper is the only position that you don't need to strengthen makes me seriously doubt his judgement on modern football.

De Gea is an all time great of Man United and the Premier League, there is no doubt about that. But he's much more of an old-fashioned shot-stopper than a modern day 'sweeper-keeper'.

Of all the other traditional top 6 teams, their goalkeeper's 'sweeping actions' for this season are all amongst the top 10 (Alisson 25, Lloris 22, Ramsdale 20, Ederson 17, Mendy 15).

De Gea is 16th on 6.

Until this season, I hadn't really seen what a difference having a modern 'sweeper-keeper' could make. At the start of this season, my team Wolves got rid of Portugal's legendary goalkeeper Rui Patricio and replaced him with an uncapped Portuguese player in Jose Sa. Believe me, this didn't go down very well at all at the time.

Patricio was another goalkeeper in that old-fashioned shot-stopper mould. He was great for us, but there was a stat to show that he was the goalkeeper that left his line the fewest times in the Premier League during his time here. Ideal for Nuno's tactics of sitting in and counter-attacking, but less suited to a team trying to push higher up the pitch.

Sa changed this, how wrong we all were about him!

For the early part of the season, Sa's sweeping from goalkeeper transformed how we had been playing under Nuno and pushed us much further up the pitch. He even got an assist with his fast kicked passes. Yes, we have other issues at the moment with our forward players, but goalkeeper is far from a problem for us. Sa is a modern, sweeper-keeper who has been taking many plaudits this season for how he has been performing. He is top for 'goalkeeper sweeping actions' with 30 for this season so far.

As great as De Gea has been for you over the years, I think his goalkeeping style might be holding you back a bit now.
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This is the issue with stats,

To the bolded part - the keeper with the highest number of defensive actions outside their box and the furthest average distance in yards of defensive actions this season is Nick Pope.

Now Burnley aren't exactly known for playing football on the front foot, nor would I classify them as a team that plays a particularly high line.

People are getting carried away with this 'modern football' aspect, there are more than one way for a team to play, and just because their keeper hangs around off their line or can ping a thirty yard ball does not conflate with automatically playing in a possession based way, as Burnley have the least average possession this season, and United have had more average possession than Wolves this season, and similar to Arsenal (whose GK was heralded as a modern sweeper keeper).
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Man Utd defensive problems this season was very little about GK issues but rather the comical defending especially our CBs and CDMs. We need to solve more pressing issues in other areas first rather than worry about GKs.
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I think a goalkeeper that leaves his line to sweep up helps to get rid of that comical defending.

When we had Patricio rooted to his line, Coady and the rest of our back line sat so deep, it didn't matter. There was no space between goalkeeper and defence.

This season, Bruno Lage has encouraged us a lot further up the pitch. Something a lot of Wolves fans thought was impossible with the lack of pace in our back line. It probably would be impossible if we still had Patricio rooted to his line! But Sa's sweeping ability closes the space between goalkeeper and defence. Unfortunately it hasn't solved our problems going forward yet, but it's why we've still managed to maintain one of best defensive records in the league despite playing higher up the pitch. Our defence don't really have to worry about space they leave in behind as they are comfortable knowing Jose Sa has that covered. They can therefore concentrate on what's in front of them and be decisive in their defensive actions.

Man United are expected to play a higher line than most (attack, attack...attack, attack, attack and all that). Some of the issues faced by Maguire and co have been knowing when to press and when to drop off. How many times has Maguire gone to press the ball and left loads of space in behind? I think it's partly because he's going to press, but he's only half-heartedly doing it because he is conscious of the massive space left in behind. Your back line has to worry about what's in front of them and what's behind them, because De Gea will almost always be rooted to his goal-line. It adds doubts and makes defensive actions less decisive, all traits we have seen with United all season.

So I actually think changing how De Gea plays (or getting a new goalkeeper that leaves his line more) will have a very positive knock-on effect to how you collectively defend.
 
PeteReDevil said:
But this is a really good point. Maybe we face so many shots because of him?
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Yes, he is partly at fault for this. Our back line are forced to drop deep (because he doesn’t claim high balls or sweep off his line) which then makes it a lot easier to sustain attacks against us. We’ve also never had an excellent set piece record in all his time here, going right back to the Fergie days. Teams can simply knock the ball from a corner or free kick right into the six yard box and he still won’t come for the ball, if you look back at the Kompany goal in 2012 that cost us the title it’s absolutely criminal he didn’t catch that corner.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Well, if Henderson can do better there is no reason not to start him. In addition, I don't believe Rangnick is the kind of character refuse to rock the boat. He even benched Ronaldo.
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Its a question of short vs long term payoff. de Gea is beneficial when you don't trust your defence and midfield to keep out counter attacks and you are facing a barrage of shots every game. On the other hand, if the keeper is facing fewer shots but contributing more to possession play plus venture out of the box to kill counters early, you can go with Henderson and live with the fact that his shot stopping is not elite.
 
He is on a huge wage and we have more pressing positions to cover.
 
hobbers said:
Because Henderson is shit at the important parts of goalkeeping and equally poor as de gea with the ball at his feet.
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This is the thing that grinds my gears with those that favour Henderson over De Gea citing "distribution".

The discrepancy between Henderson and an Ajax goalie, like Stekelenburg, Cillessen, Pasveer or Onana is much greater than between Henderson and De Gea.

Now, Hendo is also more likely to come off his line, which is often a good thing. But his distribution is only marginally better to De Gea's, if at all.
 
I'd rather have a pitched roof over a rooftop terrace as long as the foundations are not in order.
 
Because Onana already signed with Inter, I think ETH would like Robert Sanchez from Brighton.

With all due respect to DDG, a great servant to a club and great shot-stopper, but nowhere near good enough to fit into ETH's way of playing and consequently you have a player on a massive wage who simply can't justify that kind of money. Would be very surprised if the club triggers his contract for one more year, he should leave for free in the summer of 2023. because no one will pay his transfer fee and also his wages at moment.

On another side, Sanchez would be a sensible signing who would improve us as he is more comfortable with sweeping the high defensive line and possesses very good distribution which ETH likes from his goalkeepers. I was genuinely surprised with him being composed and starting good moves and attacks against very good Tottenham and City sides. Also, he is better than DDG at claiming crosses and aggressively attacking dead balls, so he will improve our set-piece headaches. He is not as good as DDG at shot-stopping but he is also good in that area, so he will generally improve our goalkeeper position.

Moneywise, also sensible because he could be attainable for no more than 30m £ and he would require much less in terms of wages than DDG. So having him in goal would not only complement the ETH system more and improve us on the field but also it will also be financially beneficial due to the difference in wages. Don't expect us to go for this change this summer as we are having more urgent problems to solve before.
 
SO
Flexdegea said:
Can't for the life of me understand when people look at our squad they think the keeper is the main most teething issue :lol:



If Ten Hag doesn't fancy him, he will make the change once he gets the rest sitting right, which won't be any time soon, blowing small fortune on a keeper.
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Me neither. Apart from him, only CR7 and Bruno are good enough for the starting 11 and people want to replace him. Our budget isn't 800 million
 
But remember Dean Henderson is one of the players believed to have been contributing to the toxic environment in the dressing room and doing the leaks, etc.

Ralf might be recommending getting rid of him to help restore harmony in the squad.

So although De Gea's distribution isn't great, he's probably been our player of the season and is on a huge wage. We're stuck with him for the time being.

And we have bigger issues to fix in the team at the moment.
 
Adnan said:
It's difficult to say what ten Hag will do but for us to evolve as a club, de Gea has to be upgraded sooner or later. And the player in the below clip is someone that has trained/played with our keepers and seems to think Henderson is comfortably the best with his feet, so let's see which route ten Hag takes, because I don't see us signing a GK in the summer window.

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This is a weird compilation - there's nothing really impressive in there, it's mainly just long balls up the field, that have as much chance of being headed away by a defender then falling for us (and in one of the clips the defenders actually get to the ball first) ... you could quite easily make a similar compilation for De Gea.

Henderson's distribution isn't great at all - his pass completion last season was 67% from 12 apperances, and De Gea's was 75% from 26 apps...
 
hobbers said:
Henderson's distribution - one of the great myths of our time.
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Indeed it is, he is better than De Gea's in terms of seeing opportunities quicker for breakaways - throwing or rolling the ball out - but his execution in terms of kicking is not much better, if at all.

However, Henderson dealing with more than twice as many crosses into the box and sweeping four times as many balls behind the defence per 90 minutes is not a myth. The defensive record with him in the team vs De Gea is also not a myth.

But to answer the OP, I don't know why anyone would be sure De Gea plays next season. I don't see any reason whatsoever that Ten Hag would pick him as his starting goalkeeper, I think he'd be more likely to use Henderson or sell Henderson and use that money to bring in a £15-20m punt.
 
Simply because hes better than any other option at the club and GK isnt going to be the priority position this summer.

I can't see Henderson displacing him seeming as he has spent this season on the side of a milk carton.
 
Was nodding till you said Henderson. I'd rather stay with De Gea for one more year.
 
I think it simply comes down to the fact we have around 8 other positions we need more urgent strengthening in. DDG is hardly an ideal keeper for ETH, but replacing him shouldn't take precedence over the dross or lack of depth we have in pretty much every other area of the pitch.
 
Kaos said:
I think it simply comes down to the fact we have around 8 other positions we need more urgent strengthening in. DDG is hardly an ideal keeper for ETH, but replacing him shouldn't take precedence over the dross or lack of depth we have in pretty much every other area of the pitch.
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Exactly right— our defense, midfield, and forward options are all worse than our goalkeeper and in an absolute need of immediate attention.
 
I actually think it should be one of the priorities to move him on next year at most, I'm not someone who makes excuses for our defenders but people don't realize how much more comfortable they would feel with a goalkeeper who isn't as one dimensional as De Gea.

The one keeper in the league who's most suited to possession football outside the top 2 is Roberto Sanchez and if we want a more commanding keeper there's Nick Pope who does a lot of sweeping too.
 
WolfInSharp'sClothing said:
I think a goalkeeper that leaves his line to sweep up helps to get rid of that comical defending.

When we had Patricio rooted to his line, Coady and the rest of our back line sat so deep, it didn't matter. There was no space between goalkeeper and defence.

This season, Bruno Lage has encouraged us a lot further up the pitch. Something a lot of Wolves fans thought was impossible with the lack of pace in our back line. It probably would be impossible if we still had Patricio rooted to his line! But Sa's sweeping ability closes the space between goalkeeper and defence. Unfortunately it hasn't solved our problems going forward yet, but it's why we've still managed to maintain one of best defensive records in the league despite playing higher up the pitch. Our defence don't really have to worry about space they leave in behind as they are comfortable knowing Jose Sa has that covered. They can therefore concentrate on what's in front of them and be decisive in their defensive actions.

Man United are expected to play a higher line than most (attack, attack...attack, attack, attack and all that). Some of the issues faced by Maguire and co have been knowing when to press and when to drop off. How many times has Maguire gone to press the ball and left loads of space in behind? I think it's partly because he's going to press, but he's only half-heartedly doing it because he is conscious of the massive space left in behind. Your back line has to worry about what's in front of them and what's behind them, because De Gea will almost always be rooted to his goal-line. It adds doubts and makes defensive actions less decisive, all traits we have seen with United all season.

So I actually think changing how De Gea plays (or getting a new goalkeeper that leaves his line more) will have a very positive knock-on effect to how you collectively defend.
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Very good posts and echos my own thoughts. I think those that downplay this factor seriously fail to realise how important it is. Controversial but I’d sooner replace De Gea than Maguire as I think De Gea causes all of our CBs to struggle more than they should.
 
ETH wanted Henderson at Ajax this season so I'm hopeful he'll come in and bench/get rid of De Gea.
 
Revaulx said:
What LvG did have was a top class goalkeeping coach, who managed to get DeGea to improve in just about every area where he was weak.

All the good he achieved was undone by Jose, sadly. De Gea is seven years older now; maybe he’s now so set in his ways he won’t change. I don’t think people should completely write off the chance that he might.

Regarding Dean’s distribution, I think the main reason it’s better is because he seems to demand defenders to make themselves available for the ball, whereas Dave assumes they won’t and hoofs it long by default. Again, there’s some hope that bad habits aren’t so deeply ingrained that they can’t be eliminated.
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This is a novel debate certainly not seen this discussed before.

We have a team full of people who don't perform in any aspect, yet a certain section of fans care more about replacing those who do excel in some (De Gea, Ronaldo, Bruno).
 
Smores said:
This is a novel debate certainly not seen this discussed before.

We have a team full of people who don't perform in any aspect, yet a certain section of fans care more about replacing those who do excel in some (De Gea, Ronaldo, Bruno).
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Only one aspect in the case of De Gea and that's after 3 years where he excelled in nothing.
 
If we sign a world-class CB in the summer then looking at replacing DDG can wait another year to prioritise other positions.

If we don’t then a new GK with a much better all round game should be one of the most urgent priorities in the transfer market.
 
Lux Thunder said:
Because Onana already signed with Inter, I think ETH would like Robert Sanchez from Brighton.

With all due respect to DDG, a great servant to a club and great shot-stopper, but nowhere near good enough to fit into ETH's way of playing and consequently you have a player on a massive wage who simply can't justify that kind of money. Would be very surprised if the club triggers his contract for one more year, he should leave for free in the summer of 2023. because no one will pay his transfer fee and also his wages at moment.

On another side, Sanchez would be a sensible signing who would improve us as he is more comfortable with sweeping the high defensive line and possesses very good distribution which ETH likes from his goalkeepers. I was genuinely surprised with him being composed and starting good moves and attacks against very good Tottenham and City sides. Also, he is better than DDG at claiming crosses and aggressively attacking dead balls, so he will improve our set-piece headaches. He is not as good as DDG at shot-stopping but he is also good in that area, so he will generally improve our goalkeeper position.

Moneywise, also sensible because he could be attainable for no more than 30m £ and he would require much less in terms of wages than DDG. So having him in goal would not only complement the ETH system more and improve us on the field but also it will also be financially beneficial due to the difference in wages. Don't expect us to go for this change this summer as we are having more urgent problems to solve before.
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Nail on the head. Just getting rid of just one of our GKs plus wages should pay for this lad longterm.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Very good posts and echos my own thoughts. I think those that downplay this factor seriously fail to realise how important it is. Controversial but I’d sooner replace De Gea than Maguire as I think De Gea causes all of our CBs to struggle more than they should.
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I believe we should replace De Gea and bring a DM before spending any more money on another CB and see how it goes we might be in for pleasant surprise.
 
Both Henderson and Heaton are better overall keepers than De Gea.
De Gea's excellent saves also reflect how crap our midfield and defence is.

Having said that I am surprised that our coaching staff had not addressed the issues De Gea has had with distribution and kicking for example.
 
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