Why do we get battered so often?

[SirMonteyne]

Ultimately this is what will always hold us back. The most successful club in England has the fanbase of Stoke City.

There's a reason Real Madrid are successful decade after decade, regime after regime. The culture of the club and the standards the fan expect are what propel them to be so great. Our fans are pathetic in comparison.

We'll always be like this unless we get a dictator like owner who doesn't give half a shit about the fans, and sets the standard himself.

Absolutely right, the idea of giving a manager time, giving influence to legends in the club, and having players passionate about the club has so much romantic appeal. The problem is that we are running in circles with someone's ideal players left behind, not the best players.

I like how Real Madrid works because they sign the best players and fire managers if they can't handle them. The concept of "we and fans trust you, you build your own team, and if you fail, we lose a few years and half a billion dollars" does not exist. As I have observed, our fans on Twitter and here still believe that someone will come here and build the best team with the signing system players. Like you said, the mentality of Stoke fans.

At the moment, I am happy with the results we have achieved, but it is still unclear to me how we will perform next season, will we really dominate teams the way the best teams do? My concern is based on the fact that we do not have players of that sort, so it is entirely up to the ETH alone. What if ETH were to sign players like Antony, Malacia, and Lica again next season? It is obvious that they are not of the same standard as Real Madrid, they are system players.

 

[Lentwood]

Nah, that’s bollox. Even 3 nil down we should still be looking to score and get back into the game. It would be an absolute dereliction of duty to give up at that point.

Plus I don’t think any of the goals we conceded came from us committing too many men forward and getting caught on the break.

It's not about giving up, it's about having the good sense to know that when you're taking a battering you bunker down and wait for your chance to counter-punch, if it comes.

You mentioned the Spurs game in another post...going in three down at HT is one thing, you can regroup during the break, make some changes and and regain your composure. Liverpool were also once famously 0-3 down at HT and came back to win the game...

However, being 0-3 down in-game is different because there's no natural break in the game to reset. Either the manager or the senior players have to do something to stop the bleeding. If you think about all of our batterings, we concede goals in gluts. 3 or 4 goals in the space of 15/20mins. That comes from not having a plan for what to do when the game starts spiraling out of control.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

It's not about giving up, it's about having the good sense to know that when you're taking a battering you bunker down and wait for your chance to counter-punch, if it comes.

You mentioned the Spurs game in another post...going in three down at HT is one thing, you can regroup during the break, make some changes and and regain your composure. Liverpool were also once famously 0-3 down at HT and came back to win the game...

However, being 0-3 down in-game is different because there's no natural break in the game to reset. Either the manager or the senior players have to do something to stop the bleeding. If you think about all of our batterings, we concede goals in gluts. 3 or 4 goals in the space of 15/20mins. That comes from not having a plan for what to do when the game starts spiraling out of control.

Spot on. Some games just get away from you and you take your medicine.

What we did yesterday was diabolical. At 2-0 down away from home to a big rival I still want us to go for it. At 3-0 it's done. Erik should have made changes earlier to stop the bleeding. It was his worst game in charge yesterday obviously due to the occasion and score but I was baffled by his team selection and tactics too. Anfield isnt the time and place. Hope he learned a valuable lesson.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Spot on. Some games just get away from you and you take your medicine.

What we did yesterday was diabolical. At 2-0 down away from home to a big rival I still want us to go for it. At 3-0 it's done. Erik should have made changes earlier to stop the bleeding. It was his worst game in charge yesterday obviously due to the occasion and score but I was baffled by his team selection and tactics too. Anfield isnt the time and place. Hope he learned a valuable lesson.

The 3rd and 4th goals were 3 minutes apart. He made two subs 8 minutes after that. How much earlier do you think those changes should have been made? And do you really think that would have made much of a difference?

 

[Smores]

It's not about giving up, it's about having the good sense to know that when you're taking a battering you bunker down and wait for your chance to counter-punch, if it comes.

You mentioned the Spurs game in another post...going in three down at HT is one thing, you can regroup during the break, make some changes and and regain your composure. Liverpool were also once famously 0-3 down at HT and came back to win the game...

However, being 0-3 down in-game is different because there's no natural break in the game to reset. Either the manager or the senior players have to do something to stop the bleeding. If you think about all of our batterings, we concede goals in gluts. 3 or 4 goals in the space of 15/20mins. That comes from not having a plan for what to do when the game starts spiraling out of control.

Agree completely, it was a massive feck up by ETH. The actual loss is on the players but the thumping was on Ten Hag, you can't just let your team sink like he did you've got to just admit defeat and shut up shop.

In a wider context it means little as we shouldn't be on the side of a pasting often but I do hope he learns lessons from all these big games we're losing.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

The 3rd and 4th goals were 3 minutes apart. He made two subs 8 minutes after that. How much earlier do you think those changes should have been made? And do you really think that would have made much of a difference?

You can make tactical changes without using subs. Everyone drops in deep and closes the gaps for 10 mins whilst he works out the plan with subs.

Erik had a mare yesterday. Awful all day even with his starting lineup. Still love the man but he must never ever repeat that diabolical result.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

No standards whatsoever amongst the board, owners, players, staff and the fanbase. Look at the responses today on this forum for such a historic humiliation passed off as “bad day at the office.” “It’s just 3 points”

Real Madrid got pasted 0-5 at the Camp Nou in Mourinho’s first year, then they won the league next season, their first in 4 years.

There’s having standards and there’s kneejerk, shortsighted reaction. Pep got a 0-4 against Everton in his first season at City around this time of the year, ended up winning nothing and made top 4 by the skin of his teeth, should they’ve sacked him then?

 

[Mike Smalling]

On my way to work it just dawned on me, that in terms of scoreline this is worse than the 8-2 beating we gave Arsenal. The difference is, that the Arsenal side of that time was filled with kids and average players, where we are just coming off a great series of results and a cup win. Arsenal also had a sending off.

 

[Drizzle]

On my way to work it just dawned on me, that in terms of scoreline this is worse than the 8-2 beating we gave Arsenal. The difference is, that the Arsenal side of that time was filled with kids and average players, where we are just coming off a great series of results and a cup win. Arsenal also had a sending off.

The other thing is that Arsenal were beaten by the Champions. We were beaten by the 6th best team in the country. Mind-boggling.

 

[Hoof the ball]

We have been, for roughly a decade now, so poor at 50/50's and 2nd balls. Even this season, with all our improvement, the one area we're still poor is loose balls and 50/50s in the middle of the field, and indeed all over.

I watched yesterday as 2nd ball after 2nd ball after 2nd ball went to them, but this isn't anomalous. It's present even in our good games. When a team introduces chaos we lose successions of duels because a lot of the same culprits are still here. Flat footed and always a second too late competing for a 2nd ball.

This is a major reason why we look like we can't keep possession, because you need to read the game better and be more aggressive in order to retain the ball well enough to circulate it out of danger. You can't just rely on purely passing it through the press. You need to switch on when the 50/50 presents itdey.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

The other thing is that Arsenal were beaten by the Champions. We were beaten by the 6th best team in the country. Mind-boggling.

Villa 7-2 Pool when the latter were best/second best in the country.

Let's also go through the record of Real Madrid, who is being held up as example for mentality:
08/09: 2-6 Barca, 1-4 Liverpool
09/10: 0-4 Alcorcon (Segunda B team)
10/11: 0-5 Barca
12/13: 1-4 Dortmund
14/15: 0-4 Atletico
18/19: 1-5 Barca, 0-3 Barca, 1-4 Ajax
19/20: 3-7 Atletico

Shit happens. Arsenal got pasted 0-5 by City last year and is now playing the best football in the country. It's not ok losing 0-7 to your biggest rival but it's not the end of the world either given the position we are in and how early in the development of this team we are in.

 

[MrEleson]

Villa 7-2 Pool when the latter were best/second best in the country.

Let's also go through the record of Real Madrid, who is being held up as example for mentality:
08/09: 2-6 Barca, 1-4 Liverpool
09/10: 0-4 Alcorcon (Segunda B team)
10/11: 0-5 Barca
12/13: 1-4 Dortmund
14/15: 0-4 Atletico
18/19: 1-5 Barca, 0-3 Barca, 1-4 Ajax
19/20: 3-7 Atletico

Shit happens. Arsenal got pasted 0-5 by City last year and is now playing the best football in the country. It's not ok losing 0-7 to your biggest rival but it's not the end of the world either given the position we are in and how early in the development of this team we are in.

08/09: That was probably the worst Real Madrid side since the 50s. There’s a reason they had a historic squad overhaul that summer.
09/10 vs Alarcon: That was an early round Copa Del Rey game where they fielded reserve/bench players but in truth they shouldn’t be losing 0-4 to a segunda team.

10/11:Lost to probably the most dominant performance I’ve seen of a club side in history. I think Barca would’ve beaten any team 5-0 that day. They were that good.

18/19: Another historically poor Madrid team that had their lowest league finish since 08/09.

19/20: An insane result but still only a pre-season friendly match.

Key takeway is that all those huge Madrid losses came in seasons where they were either extremely poor or didn’t win anything of note (14/15). The seasons they were actually good, they never lost by such scorelines.

 

[Mike Smalling]

The other thing is that Arsenal were beaten by the Champions. We were beaten by the 6th best team in the country. Mind-boggling.

Yep. I really thought this team was mentally stronger than this. Apparently not.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Real Madrid got pasted 0-5 at the Camp Nou in Mourinho’s first year, then they won the league next season, their first in 4 years.

There’s having standards and there’s kneejerk, shortsighted reaction. Pep got a 0-4 against Everton in his first season at City around this time of the year, ended up winning nothing and made top 4 by the skin of his teeth, should they’ve sacked him then?

Real Madrid's loss was embarrassing, but that was their first loss of the season and they lost to the best club side ever. No team would have beat Barcelona that day.

Pep's loss to Everton was embarrassing, but not to this level.

We didn't lose 5-0 or 4-0. We lost 7-0. To a team who smashed us twice last season(I'm aware we beat them earlier). It's just unacceptable.

No Ten Hag shouldn't be sacked, but if he saw players refusing to run/try, I'd give them a very very short leash going into next season.

We need to maintain some standards. That performance in the 2nd half was unacceptable.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Real Madrid's loss was embarrassing, but that was their first loss of the season and they lost to the best club side ever. No team would have beat Barcelona that day.

Pep's loss to Everton was embarrassing, but not to this level.

We didn't lose 5-0 or 4-0. We lost 7-0. To a team who smashed us twice last season(I'm aware we beat them earlier). It's just unacceptable.

No Ten Hag shouldn't be sacked, but if he saw players refusing to run/try, I'd give them a very very short leash going into next season.

We need to maintain some standards. That performance in the 2nd half was unacceptable.

This isn't his squad yet, and I'm sure he'd make changes to it. To some, it's alarming that when we lost this season, it's been by a big scoreline, but I see it as the result of still having a group of player that hasn't been drilled in a proactive style of play for too long, and has evident mental fragility due to past failures. Some can be improved, some will be shipped out. Granit Xhaka for instance was a walking red card for years who got derided by everybody and is now an important component of the league leaders midfield. We have to learn how to walk before we run and a few heavy falls are part of the course.

 

[Judge Red]

When the players show they’ve given up and stop defending, City and Liverpool are going to keep taking advantage of it. Brentford could have too but didn’t bother.

 

[Charles Ufarley]

We didn't concede 7 because of them.

Nope. We just didn't score 1 because of them.

 

[DRJosh]

At least we’ve hit rock bottom as far as thrashings go. Don’t think Spurs or Chelsea will smash 8 against us. It can only get better. I guess there is a lingering sense of fear amongst most of us that we haven’t really turned a corner or a big enough corner than what was initially envisaged. Hopefully this is just one horrible blip in an otherwise semi-decent season.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

08/09: That was probably the worst Real Madrid side since the 50s. There’s a reason they had a historic squad overhaul that summer.
09/10 vs Alarcon: That was an early round Copa Del Rey game where they fielded reserve/bench players but in truth they shouldn’t be losing 0-4 to a segunda team.

10/11:Lost to probably the most dominant performance I’ve seen of a club side in history. I think Barca would’ve beaten any team 5-0 that day. They were that good.

18/19: Another historically poor Madrid team that had their lowest league finish since 08/09.

19/20: An insane result but still only a pre-season friendly match.

Key takeway is that all those huge Madrid losses came in seasons where they were either extremely poor or didn’t win anything of note (14/15). The seasons they were actually good, they never lost by such scorelines.

And we aren't 'actually good yet'. 12 months ago we were on course to achieve our lowest point total in the PL era and were a toxic mess from top to bottom, now we are still in all cups competition, already won one and on course to finish top 4 with just 7 or 8 more wins out of 13. It sucks losing by such scoreline against our biggest rival, but it's not worth extrapolating it all that much because we are what we are, a work very much in progress.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

It also won us league titles. Remember the 5-3 win against Spurs, after going 3 down? Just as well we didn’t shut up shop and accept defeat in that match…

That was at home (I was actually at that game!) and it didn't have quite the same impact the City result did.

Today was Anfield and also a very different United side, but if you're content we still did the right thing after a 7-0 pumping, that's cool.

We were 3-0 down away to Spurs. . .

 

[Lee565]

Our match day fanbase have to take some of the blame, do you think the players are afraid of the fans backlash when most of them will continue to clap like seals at what ever rubbish the players and the manager serve, look at how fans were cheering on the likes of moyes and ole when they were producing an awful run of results.

Even the owners get off very lightly by our easily.pleased fanbase

 

[Judas]

Our match day fanbase have to take some of the blame, do you think the players are afraid of the fans backlash when most of them will continue to clap like seals at what ever rubbish the players and the manager serve, look at how fans were cheering on the likes of moyes and ole when they were producing an awful run of results.

Even the owners get off very lightly by our easily.pleased fanbase

Brilliant we were long overdue a shit post like this blaming the actual people who go to games. How about you start going and boo them, hell why not throw some horse shit at them too? What goes through the heads of supporters like you, not a lot apparently.

 

[horsechoker]

Bunch of cod fam

 

[Long Time Red]

The 5 players that started in the Brentford 4-0, Man City 6-3 and Liverpool 7-0:

De Gea
Martinez
Dalot
Fernandes
Rashford

 

[Bwuk]

Our match day fanbase have to take some of the blame, do you think the players are afraid of the fans backlash when most of them will continue to clap like seals at what ever rubbish the players and the manager serve, look at how fans were cheering on the likes of moyes and ole when they were producing an awful run of results.

Even the owners get off very lightly by our easily.pleased fanbase

Sure your making a huge difference sitting behind a screen watching a dodgy stream.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

On my way to work it just dawned on me, that in terms of scoreline this is worse than the 8-2 beating we gave Arsenal. The difference is, that the Arsenal side of that time was filled with kids and average players, where we are just coming off a great series of results and a cup win. Arsenal also had a sending off.

Our first team players are shot. Fatigue is real both mental and physical.

We've played more games tha any other club in Europe post world cup without a backup squad.

My worry is that there is no let up on the fixture list so this could continue.

 

[Siorac]

Ultimately this is what will always hold us back. The most successful club in England has the fanbase of Stoke City.

There's a reason Real Madrid are successful decade after decade, regime after regime. The culture of the club and the standards the fan expect are what propel them to be so great. Our fans are pathetic in comparison.

We'll always be like this unless we get a dictator like owner who doesn't give half a shit about the fans, and sets the standard himself.

Some people seriously suggest signing Wout Weghorst on a permanent basis in the summer. It's utterly baffling.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

The 5 players that started in the Brentford 4-0, Man City 6-3 and Liverpool 7-0:

De Gea
Martinez
Dalot
Fernandes
Rashford

I personally think Dalot was poor defensively and AWB should've played.

 

[Judas]

What I’m taking from this thread is Old Trafford needs more white hanky waving?

 

[Lee565]

Brilliant we were long overdue a shit post like this blaming the actual people who go to games. How about you start going and boo them, hell why not throw some horse shit at them too? What goes through the heads of supporters like you, not a lot apparently.

It's true, we have allowed standards to drop massively since fergie retired with the rubbish we have got behind the manager and team for producing, do you think real mqdrid supporters would have been OK with real getting smashed 7-0 by barca?

 

[Rooney in Paris]

And we aren't 'actually good yet'. 12 months ago we were on course to achieve our lowest point total in the PL era and were a toxic mess from top to bottom, now we are still in all cups competition, already won one and on course to finish top 4 with just 7 or 8 more wins out of 13. It sucks losing by such scoreline against our biggest rival, but it's not worth extrapolating it all that much because we are what we are, a work very much in progress.

It's nice to see there is still some sense on here, though there's mostly massive kneejerk reactions. It was a bit of a reality check regarding where we are in terms of development (i.e., still very much a work in progress), it really sucks but it was mainly a really strange day (or more exactly, second half), where everything went to absolute shit for us, and everything went absolutely perfect for them.

It doesnt fundamentally change much when you take a step back to gain some perspective.

 

[Lee565]

Sure your making a huge difference sitting behind a screen watching a dodgy stream.

Better that than supporting the glazers, I am not stepping foot back in old Trafford until glazers move on and I am not giving money to sky when it is own by murdoch

 

[The Oracle]

Why do we get battered so often?

David De Gea

• He doesn’t organise his defence
• He doesn’t command his area
• He is easy to beat in one on one situations
• His weak distribution constantly invites pressure onto us

The sooner we move on from him the better.

 

[horse_pills]

Some people seriously suggest signing Wout Weghorst on a permanent basis in the summer. It's utterly baffling.

Some people seriously suggest Wout was the reason we got tanked yesterday. It's utterly baffling.

 

[kaku06]

Real Madrid got pasted 0-5 at the Camp Nou in Mourinho’s first year, then they won the league next season, their first in 4 years.

There’s having standards and there’s kneejerk, shortsighted reaction. Pep got a 0-4 against Everton in his first season at City around this time of the year, ended up winning nothing and made top 4 by the skin of his teeth, should they’ve sacked him then?

Why are you equating 4-0, 5-0’s to 7-0? We already got our 5-0 at home last year to Liverpool if you wanna compare to Real Madrid 5-0 to Barca. Now it’s 7-0, SEVEN. Bloody hell, that many goals means something. Biggest loss in our history and we have people like you comparing it to 4-0 and pretending it’s the same score line.

 

[2 man midfield]

Why do we get battered so often?

David De Gea

• He doesn’t organise his defence
• He doesn’t command his area
• He is easy to beat in one on one situations
• His weak distribution constantly invites pressure onto us

The sooner we move on from him the better.

I really don’t want to blame de gea for this, or even yesterday apart from maybe the third goal, but he does have an annoying habit of just not moving for shots when we’re having our arses handed to us. The amount of times we’ve conceded the 4th or 5th goal and De Gea just stands and watches it go in…

 

[Siorac]

Some people seriously suggest Wout was the reason we got tanked yesterday. It's utterly baffling.

He isn't the reason we got tanked.

But we still shouldn't even consider the mere idea of potentially thinking about the remotest possibility of signing him on a permanent basis.

Because, and here's the kicker, 'not being the reason we lost 7-0' is not some sort of rousing endorsement. This sort of response is exactly what we mean when we talk about lack of standards among the fans.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Why are you equating 4-0, 5-0’s to 7-0? We already got our 5-0 at home last year to Liverpool if you wanna compare to Real Madrid 5-0 to Barca. Now it’s 7-0, SEVEN. Bloody hell, that many goals means something. Biggest loss in our history and we have people like you comparing it to 4-0 and pretending it’s the same score line.

I don't pretend anything, the only reason it wasn't more on that Classico is because Barca stopped trying somewhat, and the match devolved into a fighting mess. And the 0-4 for City was against a team with a fraction of their budget who had no business beating them, much less by that much. We were away at a ground historically terrible for us even under the best of time with Fergie, we played 5 games more than them in the last 2 months, most of them physically and mentally draining, and we had a bad 45 min collapse when they scored 7 goals out of 8 shots on target. Is it hard to stomach? Absolutely. Is it going to materially affect the outcome of this season for us? No, and that's where it stops. A year from now when we are fighting for the league, nobody is going to bring it up aside from Scousers, and as I recall, they don't get much mileage out of the 4-1 at our ground when we pipped them to the title in 09.

 

[Charles Ufarley]

Bunch of cod fam

The Cod Fellas.

 

[horse_pills]

He isn't the reason we got tanked.

But we still shouldn't even consider the mere idea of potentially thinking about the remotest possibility of signing him on a permanent basis.

Because, and here's the kicker, 'not being the reason we lost 7-0' is not some sort of rousing endorsement. This sort of response is exactly what we mean when we talk about lack of standards among the fans.

You misunderstood my post. I wasn't suggesting that you were one of the posters blaming Wout for the debacle yesterday - neither was I suggesting that him not being to blame was some kind of ringing endorsement. I agree we shouldn't remotely consider signing him on a permanent contract - I just find it bizarre that so many posters are laying into him in threads about the defeat, when he was about as far removed from the cause of the result as any player on the pitch.