Why aren't the other teams in the Premier League rallying to have City ousted?

[Josep Dowling]

As a private organization doesn’t the FA/PL gave the legal right to set and enforce its rules as they wish, so long as those rules are not arbitrary?

That's my view. It's a private membership club where clubs have pre-agreed rules before participating. It was agreed that 14/20 clubs can approve changes. I cannot see how an court of law are able to get involved and tell the Premier League to change their rules to suit one member.

The Premier League and FA need to tighten up their regulations to stop anything like this happening. If they had just abided to their fit and proper rules City's owner wouldn't own the club anyway.

 

[HappyCamper]

A story just broke today about Liverpool's shirt sponsor allegedly facilitating ~$100 billion of transactions in breach of sanctions and helping to fund terrorist groups and there is barely a peep about it on here.

Maybe its beneficial to first attempt to have a more neutered version of City around, as they are the current biggest avatar of the money-in-football problem, and the rest can go about their relative grubbiness in peace.

I've read your later posts as well and I find your arguments valid and I agree for the most parts.
That being said, banks are fined all the time. Google whatever bank in the world and all of them have been fined for breaches related to money-laundering. This case might be a bit different due to hiding of evidence and I'm sure Liverpool will cut the ties now, if they are legally able to do so. It will probably also be a profitable move, since a new deal will generate more money than a sponsorship deal made in 2022.

 

[Pascal Quiff]

I don't see the big deal with City. All they've done is spent their own money.

They've just done it a lot better than us, Utd and others. I don't think their spending on players has even been that high.

They could well be relegated, but likely bounce back like Juve did anyway.

Meanwhile the case damages the league I think. Too much focus on it instead of positive things.

What should happen for me, is financial rules that are the same for all the clubs in the league. Not related to revenue or profit. Possibly punish debt / cash ratio being low, or things that can make clubs go under. As La liga do pretty much.

Abu Dhabi getting into AI posts now I see

 

[SuperiorXI]

No surprise to see Chelsea and City fans in bed together since they’ve probably supported both teams at some point anyway.

Steady on, they'd have to get out of bed with their sisters first

 

[duffer]

Steady on, they'd have to get out of bed with their sisters first

Is this the Ryan Giggs thread?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Is this the Ryan Giggs thread?

That's Neymar. Giggsy is the sister in law.

 

[duffer]

That's Neymar. Giggsy is the sister in law.

Potato / Batata.

 

[glaspalast]

What yous need to do is explain with facts and logic and diagrams exactly how Man City and Newcastle's ownership hinders a midtable club achieving their dream of becoming a top team, dampens a lower prem club hopes of achieving mid-table respectability, and damages a newly promoted clubs chances to be competitive without gambling their future away*

That would be a compelling argument.

Arsenal and Liverpool tears are just funny.


*note: I think all this is true, but I need to see your working out.

 

[Posh Red]

What yous need to do is explain with facts and logic and diagrams exactly how Man City and Newcastle's ownership hinders a midtable club achieving their dream of becoming a top team, dampens a lower prem club hopes of achieving mid-table respectability, and damages a newly promoted clubs chances to be competitive without gambling their future away*

That would be a compelling argument.

Arsenal and Liverpool tears are just funny.


*note: I think all this is true, but I need to see your working out.

What about the economical impact of flooding an industry with excessive amounts of inorganic cash, creating hyperinflation, and making it harder and harder for smaller teams to hold on to their best talents, and to compete generally?

 

[glaspalast]

What about the economical impact of flooding an industry with excessive amounts of inorganic cash, creating hyperinflation, and making it harder and harder for smaller teams to hold on to their best talents, and to compete generally?

Good point, - will you curb United's spending as well?

 

[Posh Red]

Good point, - will you curb United's spending as well?

United can only spend what they generate as a club. That’s the opposite of inorganic spending, and relies on income associated with its supporters base.

 

[kaiser1]

United can only spend what they generate as a club. That’s the opposite of inorganic spending, and relies on income associated with its supporters base.

How many clubs can grow organically and challenge the top tier clubs who got a head start in the 70s and 90s and built a healthy financial base

Has there been any club in the top 5 leagues without outside investment in the last 20yrs challenged and became a consistent top team?

 

[AfonsoAlves]

How many clubs can grow organically and challenge the top tier clubs who got a head start in the 70s and 90s and built a healthy financial base

Has there been any club in the top 5 leagues without outside investment in the last 20yrs challenged and became a consistent top team?

Leicester won the league, Aston Villa got top 4, Spurs are david levied, Arsenal consistently underspent.

That's with the ridiculous cash injections of Chelsea and City.

 

[kaiser1]

Leicester won the league, Aston Villa got top 4, Spurs are david levied, Arsenal consistently underspent.

That's with the ridiculous cash injections of Chelsea and City.

Leicester won the league, never made top 4 again and relegated 6 seasons later, they had that investor that died in a chopper crash

Aston Villa just made top 4 for the first time in like 30yrs and will you place a bet on them making top 4 this year again?

Spurs have never won the league in 50yrs

So again which club in the entire top 5 leagues has been able to challenge CONSISTENTLY without outside money

 

[kaiser1]

Leicester won the league, Aston Villa got top 4, Spurs are david levied, Arsenal consistently underspent.

That's with the ridiculous cash injections of Chelsea and City.

Regarding Aston Villa this is what I got from Google search

Billionaires Nassef Sawiris and Wesley Edens own Aston Villa via the holding company V Sports.

Egypt’s richest man Nassef Sawiris and American asset manager Wes Edens created V Sports in 2018. It was called NSWE before rebranding in 2019.

V Sports owns 100 per cent of the club. American investment company Atairos is a minority shareholder in the group.

V Sports also part-own Portuguese club Vitória de Guimaraes. They reduced their shareholding to a 29 per cent stake in 2023 in order to meet Uefa competition rules.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/owns-aston-villa-much-did-144801428.html

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

They really are a despicable club and you can tell their behaviour is damaging people’s trust and love of the game in England. The Premier League must stand firm to them or risk losing their top dog status. People will turn away.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Leicester won the league, never made top 4 again and relegated 6 seasons later, they had that investor that died in a chopper crash

Aston Villa just made top 4 for the first time in like 30yrs and will you place a bet on them making top 4 this year again?

Spurs have never won the league in 50yrs

So again which club in the entire top 5 leagues has been able to challenge CONSISTENTLY without outside money

Could you argue Dortmund?

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Leicester won the league, never made top 4 again and relegated 6 seasons later, they had that investor that died in a chopper crash

Aston Villa just made top 4 for the first time in like 30yrs and will you place a bet on them making top 4 this year again?

Spurs have never won the league in 50yrs

So again which club in the entire top 5 leagues has been able to challenge CONSISTENTLY without outside money

Regarding Aston Villa this is what I got from Google search

Billionaires Nassef Sawiris and Wesley Edens own Aston Villa via the holding company V Sports.

Egypt’s richest man Nassef Sawiris and American asset manager Wes Edens created V Sports in 2018. It was called NSWE before rebranding in 2019.

V Sports owns 100 per cent of the club. American investment company Atairos is a minority shareholder in the group.

V Sports also part-own Portuguese club Vitória de Guimaraes. They reduced their shareholding to a 29 per cent stake in 2023 in order to meet Uefa competition rules.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/owns-aston-villa-much-did-144801428.html

Yet all of these are abiding by FFP rules and working under the same framework as all of the other clubs.

Here, Real Madrid doesn't get cash injections, Man Utd won heaps despite getting its cash drained as dividends, Arsenal the same,

mate, quite literally just Man City and Chelsea are actually consistently up there WITH absurd outside money. Even Barca's outrageous debt problem was a problem of their own making and not external financing.

and PSG of course.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Could you argue Dortmund?

Or maybe Atletico? Although these are not really small clubs.

 

[kaiser1]

Could you argue Dortmund?

Dortmund was a big club in the 90s won some league titles, and the CL had a Liverpool type drop until Klopp came around, And without the consistent big pockets they still lose their best players to bigger clubs which ensures they cant grow beyond a certain level

 

[kaiser1]

Yet all of these are abiding by FFP rules and working under the same framework as all of the other clubs.

Here, Real Madrid doesn't get cash injections, Man Utd won heaps despite getting its cash drained as dividends, Arsenal the same,

mate, quite literally just Man City and Chelsea are actually consistently up there WITH absurd outside money. Even Barca's outrageous debt problem was a problem of their own making and not external financing.

and PSG of course.

Madrid was already a big club before most of us were born, they had the name and brand recognition they can monetize. How will a club like Palace or Luton town grow organically without outside funds

Leverkusen(even with Bayer money) won the league but many of their fans are already resigned to losing their best players and coach in the next 2 yrs which probably mean they cannot consistently challenge.
Bayern Munich is still going to make more from commercial income than Leverkusen and can buy off plus triple the salary of all the best Leverkusen players and we will be talking about once in 20yr wins of Leverkusen like we do for Leicester

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Dortmund was a big club in the 90s won some league titles, and the CL had a Liverpool type drop until Klopp came around, And without the consistent big pockets they still lose their best players to bigger clubs which ensures they cant grow beyond a certain level

A lot of that is down to Dortmund's own choosing rather than being hamstrung by FFP. In the past few years they've received ridiculous sums of money for players. 135m for Dembele, 100m for Bellingham, 75m for Sancho, 60m for Haaland, 60m for Pulisic. And their most expensive singing of all time is what, 30m? If they actually reinvested all of that profit they made from player sales then of course they could consistently challenge for domestic and European titles without outside money.

 

[kaiser1]

A lot of that is down to Dortmund's own choosing rather than being hamstrung by FFP. In the past few years they've received ridiculous sums of money for players. 135m for Dembele, 100m for Bellingham, 75m for Sancho, 60m for Haaland, 60m for Pulisic. And their most expensive singing of all time is what, 30m? If they actually reinvested all of that profit they made from player sales then of course they could consistently challenge for domestic and European titles without outside money.

That is really trivializing their struggles and that of clubs with modest budgets.

If it was that easy many clubs not named Dortmund would have become consistent challengers in their leagues
The salary top players demand is a major part which is even more than the transfer fees. Clubs like Dortmund must invest properly and cannot have any margin for error while the Bayern, Man Utd Madrid Barcelona can make errors and correct it next season by splashing another 100m. Once the players of smaller clubs do well, they are off and another rebuild starts, Year 1 young player is inconsistent and growing, 2nd year he is playing better, 3rd yr you lose him and start all over again

In the past 10yrs Dortmund has played Lewy, Aubameyang, Immobile, Isak, Alcacer, Batsuayi, Ramos, Haaland, Fulkrug, Haller as striker 10 different strikers in 10yrs you can see how hard it will be to adapt tactics to different profiles, wait for one to grow and likely miss just because they have a smaller budget. As soon as Lewy Auba, Haaland turned out good, they were on their way out while Bayern in the same time has Lewy, Mane and Kane. Mane didn't work out thy splashed 100m on Kane. They don't need to worry as much about losing players

Crystal Palace for example are starting to get a rhythm which will make them lose their key players and have to start all over

Madrid took Ronaldo from you and gave you 80M, Years later you reinvested that money but never got 30% of Ronaldo abilities. If you or Ferguson had a choice he will rather keep Ronaldo because the many players they bought and failed while trying to replace Ronaldo

 

[alexthelion]

I don't see the big deal with City. All they've done is spent their own money.

They've just done it a lot better than us, Utd and others. I don't think their spending on players has even been that high.

They could well be relegated, but likely bounce back like Juve did anyway.

Meanwhile the case damages the league I think. Too much focus on it instead of positive things.

What should happen for me, is financial rules that are the same for all the clubs in the league. Not related to revenue or profit. Possibly punish debt / cash ratio being low, or things that can make clubs go under. As La liga do pretty much.

 

[TheLord]

What is the chance of newly promoted teams winning the PL without "cash injection above their means"? Zero

The dominance of historically successful teams like United, Liverpool, Arsenal, and Chelsea will continue for another 100 years if clubs aren't allowed to spend "above their means." And all these successful clubs have flexed their muscles and spent well above their means at some point(s) in their history to be in the top, ultra-advantageous position that they are in right now.

Therein lies the biggest probem - forget our history, but we will remember your present. That is where FFP is inherently flawed.

A wage cap or transfer cap won't work, because what will elite clubs do with surplus cash? Unless radical measures are instituted to give poor clubs (or those with new owners) at least some outside chance of winning the PL, there will always be discontent. FFP in its current format won't work.

 

[caid]

Good point, - will you curb United's spending as well?

I thought the new proposals would do that? There would be a hard cap based off the lowest income club. They should, our income relative to luton is stupid too.
It would be quite hard to police if someone was determined to ignore it mind you. I presume a United player will have better opportunities for outside sponsorship with the higher exposure clubs like us will attract. I presume Cities new striker will coincidentally get a pile of sponsorships from completely unrelated businesses in Abu Dhabi when he signs for them.
FFP was always an ugly, inadequate solution in my view. It was just a foundation to build something more effective over. Its dead in the water if you cant get clubs to engage in good faith with it (i'm not sure us and Real Madrid and others have either to be fair).

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

What is the chance of newly promoted teams winning the PL without "cash injection above their means"? Zero

The dominance of historically successful teams like United, Liverpool, Arsenal, and Chelsea will continue for another 100 years if clubs aren't allowed to spend "above their means." And all these successful clubs have flexed their muscles and spent well above their means at some point(s) in their history to be in the top, ultra-advantageous position that they are in right now.

Therein lies the biggest probem - forget our history, but we will remember your present. That is where FFP is inherently flawed.

A wage cap or transfer cap won't work, because what will elite clubs do with surplus cash? Unless radical measures are instituted to give poor clubs (or those with new owners) at least some outside chance of winning the PL, there will always be discontent. FFP in its current format won't work.

Why should City or Newcastle be able to compete for the league instead of say Palace or Fulham because they won the lottery and a nation state decided to buy them? That hardly seems fairer to me.

 

[Posh Red]

How many clubs can grow organically and challenge the top tier clubs who got a head start in the 70s and 90s and built a healthy financial base

Has there been any club in the top 5 leagues without outside investment in the last 20yrs challenged and became a consistent top team?

Allowing unlimited spending for clubs owned by nation states will make that problem worse, not better.

 

[lysglimt]

I wonder when City-fans will wake up and realize that if they get their way with this lawsuit - Newcastle have an owner who has a fortune that is 20 times bigger than their own owners, and could possibly by the 100 most expensive players on the planet and not even break a sweat.

 

[lysglimt]

I don't see the big deal with City. All they've done is spent their own money.

They've just done it a lot better than us, Utd and others. I don't think their spending on players has even been that high.

They could well be relegated, but likely bounce back like Juve did anyway.

Meanwhile the case damages the league I think. Too much focus on it instead of positive things.

What should happen for me, is financial rules that are the same for all the clubs in the league. Not related to revenue or profit. Possibly punish debt / cash ratio being low, or things that can make clubs go under. As La liga do pretty much.

Can I ask you one questions - do you see ANY problems knowing that Newcastles owners have a net fortune that is....I don't know - 100 times bigger than Chelseas owners ?

 

[Maluco]

People can’t seem to comprehend the difference between Bobby Jones and his tech firm investing in a few players to increase the clubs worth and a sovereign state investing billions and trampling the sporting integrity of the entire competition.

Come on lads, it’s not that hard a distinction to make.

The only clubs that are supporting them are the grubby ones that have fecked up their own finances and, selfishly, don’t mind fecking over fans of the product to get themselves out of it.

Private investment is absolutely fine, raising limits of FFP is a perfectly valid argument, but you can’t regulate a team like City. They are boasting the biggest revenues in football and trying to tell us they only spent £50 million on Haaland. The league’s referees are being paid directly by their clubs owners. The government will probably have to intervene because their investment in the country needs to be protected.

If you can honestly consider what’s happening, and don’t think there is an issue and enough people think similarly, the league is already dead.

 

[kaiser1]

Allowing unlimited spending for clubs owned by nation states will make that problem worse, not better.

It now becomes a race to hustle for your own deep pocket financier, be it nation state, or oligarch, or just anyone

Lower clubs get shafted anyway whether it's by nation states, oligarchs, rich businessmen or old boys club of the league

 

[kaiser1]

Can I ask you one questions - do you see ANY problems knowing that Newcastles owners have a net fortune that is....I don't know - 100 times bigger than Chelseas owners ?

It will by hypocritical of Chelsea fans to suddenly have such problems when they benefited from Roman spending about 30times more than the average EPL team to win their first league in 50yrs
Chelsea from nowhere started taking Bayern captain Ballack, Milan star striker Shevchenko why shouldn't Everton or Burnley get that experience too

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

As good an analysis of *’s challenge with the PL as I’ve read so far. Cuts through a lot of the speculation whirling around this and the other thread…

https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jun/08/manchester-city-premier-league-legal-case

 

[Solius]

I'm not even defending City. I'm providing a rationale (maybe right, maybe wrong) for why a club might not be rushing out with a pitchfork like a bunch of uninformed, emotional fans.

You are seeing things that aren't there and arguing points I'm even not making.

Adexkola reborn.

 

[Fortitude]

As good an analysis of *’s challenge with the PL as I’ve read so far. Cuts through a lot of the speculation whirling around this and the other thread…

https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jun/08/manchester-city-premier-league-legal-case

According to reports, City are not only challenging the APT rules but seeking damages for deals that were affected or lost as a consequence. Those damages would have to be paid by the league, whose shareholders are its 20 member clubs.

It just gets worse at every turn. They need to be expelled.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Adexkola reborn.

Meaning?

 

[Solius]

Meaning?

Adexkola was often contrarian for the sake of it. Or played devil’s advocate in everything possible.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Adexkola was often contrarian for the sake of it. Or played devil’s advocate in everything possible.

How am I doing that?

The subtext of what I am saying is that City's alleged crimes and actions are worse and not the same level; otherwise they're not of as much use for "deflection" purposes. Anyway, the real answer is probably something boring like in house legal restricting the club anyway.

Should everyone just repeat the same answer and agree with the same hypothesis over and over?

 

[RedRocket9908]

It will by hypocritical of Chelsea fans to suddenly have such problems when they benefited from Roman spending about 30times more than the average EPL team to win their first league in 50yrs
Chelsea from nowhere started taking Bayern captain Ballack, Milan star striker Shevchenko why shouldn't Everton or Burnley get that experience too

Everton and Burnley would never be able to get anywhere near Newcastle and City's level of spending and would end up going bankrupt if they even tried