Because patience and stability under the wrong manager equals time wasted.
Why are United fans so oblivious to importance of good managers?
- Thread starter MuFc_1992
- Start date
Great post. I think people are clinging onto the nostalgia aspect.
Winning the league title with ole would be so sweet. Club legend coming back to guide the players and all.
The bitter truth is all the you've mentioned.
If any one watched Italy Spain last night, these are players who don't even play at the same club, they get like 18-20 training sessions per year with each other.
I don't know what else could underline the importance of a good manager.
I don't know what else could underline the importance of a good manager.
What a stupid question. You start from misrepresenting the argument in a way that turns it into something that is self-evidently self-defeating, and then ask why people are so stupid that they think this. Pointless.
The reality of course is:
People don't think that all managers are equally good. They just think that it's a bit more complicated than "Graham Potter 74" and "Jürgen Klopp 98". Among other things because, as experience attests to, it often happens that managers perform splendidly one season and horribly the next, or are huge successes at one club and then a flop at another. This heavily suggests that a lot more things go into the outcome than your manager having "the right level".
They also think that it's not actually that clear who is an "average manager", and rightly reject the notion that anyone who has not yet provided top results at an elite club never will, because he hasn't proven his "elite level" credentials. They may recall the fact that at some point in the past, exactly the same logic could have been employed with the same validity against Klopp, Guardiola, Mourinho or any other manager.
Needless to say, nobody in their right mind think that a club will do well with a manager "who has no plan and no tactical nous". They may however disagree with you that Manchester United currently has a manager with no plan and no tactical nous.
And also needless to say, I think we can safely assume there are few to none United fans who have failed to notice that City and Liverpool play a recognisable brand of football and have had some success with it. They may also have noticed that there are other teams in the world who have also had success, without necessarily doing things in the same way as Klopp or Guardiola, which means that success for United may not be entirely down to finding a replica of Klopp or Guardiola.
So, the answer to your question is: Because, unlike you, they have thought things through sufficiently to at least understand what the questions are.
All he needs to do is pull his finger out, make better decisions and start winning games and ultimately, trophies.
Nope I'm just questioning the distinct lack of Plan in way we approach our games. Do you honestly think it is stupid to point out that our players are second guessing what to do next after getting the ball? Its blatantly obvious to anyone watching us play and I think the point of disagreement between us is that I think it is necessary to have a manager who has a certain style of play and you think that it is optional as Ole has done well enough in other aspects of his job such as recruitment and there have been managers in the past who have done well without having it. Pep and Klopp use repetition in their training sessions to make sure that passing and movement becomes second nature to them and therefore they are able to play much better football than us. They are not the only managers who can do it but our manager who's been here for more than 3 seasons has shown no sign that he's able to do it. Why is it stupid to question the logic of supporting a manager who has shown zero signs of what I believe to be the important part of building a successful team?
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If that's what you want to raise, you've put the wrong question in your OP.
I've pretty much raised the same points in OP but just questioned why some fans refuse to see them? I mean there are still some fans holding out hope that things will gel after a while and we will start playing better but that to me just seems like wishful thinking so, I'm questioning those people in OP.
Indeed. It's a shame - I genuinely would love him to succeed. His era as a player is probably my favourite as a fan.
I can't understand the mental gymnastics some fans are engaging in to justify sticking with him when there are (in my view, objectively) better managers out there.
Looking back, it's insane that they gave him the job in the first place.
The mental gymnastics will continue because on merit they can't really defend him can they. With Ole it's always something intangible or you being a fake fan who doesn't understand the United way.
Great post.
It's funny how the ole in fans claim those wanting him out aren't true reds but then they bang on every season about needing to yet again spend another 100 million in the transfer market every summer to potentially challenge for trophies which to me sounds far more like a plastic fan.
I'm fed up that since fergie left we have this mentality of buying superstar players in every position will make up for having a poor manager over seeing the club
I'm fed up that since fergie left we have this mentality of buying superstar players in every position will make up for having a poor manager over seeing the club
When that so called patience and stability isn’t yielding the expected success and results then continuing down the same road then becomes incompetent and detrimental.
After 7 games, 2pts off the top? Damn incompetent pe teacher and joke club.
After 7 games, 2pts off the top? Damn incompetent pe teacher and joke club.
For the last fecking time it’s not just 7 games in, he’s been here 3 years now and we’re seeing the exact same problems and slipping up in the exact same games.
It's not like we've had a tough run...not played any of the rest of the top four yet and have looked poor in many matches. We'll know more at mid season but I'm afraid that I suspect your optimism is misplaced.After 7 games, 2pts off the top? Damn incompetent pe teacher and joke club.
I swear Ole fans are just fans for nastalga reasons, of a time when this approach to football worked. It's so far behind now, we look like a caveman club.
Not referring to Ole here specifically, but I think our fans are quite patient compared to most big clubs, don’t you think?
Sorry I've just seen this.
I was never implying we should go for Pep or Klopp. What I was implying is great managers generally make great teams.
A good manager will demand a balanced squad and control of the players we buy. The Glazers aren't going to agree to that. We saw how that ends with Jose and how it's turning out with Ole. So did the good managers. So they won't come. All we will get are past their sell by date mercenaries like Jose and LVG or out of their depth mid table types like Moyes and Ole.
To focus on the manager as the problem is to miss the point. It's also exactly what the Glazers want you to do because it means you aren't focusing on them. So the more you blame it on Ole, the more likely they are to keep him in post. It's called lightning conducting in politics.
To focus on the manager as the problem is to miss the point. It's also exactly what the Glazers want you to do because it means you aren't focusing on them. So the more you blame it on Ole, the more likely they are to keep him in post. It's called lightning conducting in politics.
I've no love for the Glazers but why do you think the biggest problem is with them and not with the idiot who has chosen the last 4 managers? I may be wrong but from the outside it looks like they're a more hands off type of owner than many clubs I could mention.
I can't see many grounds either why you think the managers don't get who they ask for. Mou is an obvious example but the club rightly put their foot down when he wanted to sign Willian/Perisic type players.On Maquire, Mou has already bought Bailly and Lindelof as CBs. Is it a surprise the club didn't want to fork out another 70m on a CB at the time?
I can't understand either why you think Ole hasn't got who he wanted. Look at the class of player that's been brought in for him. If the CM position hasn't been sorted it's on Ole who's had 4 or 5 windows to address the position. It wouldn't surprise me if he thinks the position doesn't need looked at because he does love his McFred.
If I were to guess I'd say the only players brought in under Ole who he hasn't ask for are Cavani and Ronaldo but any manager who couldn't use these players don't deserve to be manager of United anyway.
That's downright ridiculous.
No. Definitely not.
We’re not patient compared to other big clubs? Oh ok, I’d have thought we are.
I want a United manager to be someone who deserves to be managing the club. That means you have to have won titles elsewhere. You should have to earn the right to be United manager. Once Mourinho got the sack the board said they would take their time. Ole has a successful two months and suddenly he was hired. Why didn’t they wait until the end of the season to make a decision? What’s even more frustrating is that everything that made him successful and in the initial period he’s moved away from. 4-3-3, Pogba playing CAM.
And let’s be honest United have not hired the right person every single time since Fergie. Moyes should have never got the job. Van Gaal was already past it at the time of his employment and to some degree so was Mourinho.
The club has still not gone for the best manager around that plays high press attacking football. I’m sure that’s what United fans want to see. Simply put when Klopp left Dortmund they should have been straight on the phone persuading him to join us. Same with Pep. Same with Poch. Why are we remaining with a poor performing manager, with no prior success? The football is that bad at the moment, we may as well employ someone like Conte. The football may be boring but at least we would win something.
And let’s be honest United have not hired the right person every single time since Fergie. Moyes should have never got the job. Van Gaal was already past it at the time of his employment and to some degree so was Mourinho.
The club has still not gone for the best manager around that plays high press attacking football. I’m sure that’s what United fans want to see. Simply put when Klopp left Dortmund they should have been straight on the phone persuading him to join us. Same with Pep. Same with Poch. Why are we remaining with a poor performing manager, with no prior success? The football is that bad at the moment, we may as well employ someone like Conte. The football may be boring but at least we would win something.
“why do so many United fans not agree with me?”
Because he's not an idiot. He's following a business model. Just not the one we would like. It's the one the Glazers like. They buy young players with a higher resale value. Or they buy old player on a free or a small fee but for big salaries who sell shirts. They avoid the late twenties types at the peak of their game who decline in value and want big transfer fees.
These were young players of limited pedigree that could most likely be resold for the same or more. That's the business model. Maguire was pretty young but even that was pushing it given his fee. But the need for top four eventually required it. Alderweireld from Spurs (who Jose really wanted most) was a complete non starter given his age and the fee. There was a direct battle between Jose's desire for results and Woodward's desire to manage the long term spreadsheet. Jose lost. Ole wouldn't even be strong enough to have the battle.
I just don't believe that he wanted VdB and Ronaldo more than he wanted a DM. He would have to be a truly terrible manager to think that was right, and I doubt he's that bad. As they say in Belfast, the dogs in the street know who runs transfer policy at Old Trafford, and it isn't the smiley smurf guy with no qualifications but who makes top reds swoon with nostalgia. So they will let him buy Bellingham when his contract nears an end. They won't let him buy Rice right now. That's how we differ from City.
I'm reminded of the politician's syllogism:
Something must be done
Here's something we can do
Therefore let's do this
Replacing the manager is something we can do. Replacing the owners or the players or restructuring the club is much more difficult. But those difficult things are where the solutions actually lie. If we ditch Ole we will just get another unsatisfactory manager because the conditions that gave rise to the last four are still in place.
Something must be done
Here's something we can do
Therefore let's do this
Replacing the manager is something we can do. Replacing the owners or the players or restructuring the club is much more difficult. But those difficult things are where the solutions actually lie. If we ditch Ole we will just get another unsatisfactory manager because the conditions that gave rise to the last four are still in place.
I think from the clubs point of view the Mourinho experience was a big learning curve for them and since then the structure of the club has been changing. Especially regarding transfers and I can't really see anything wrong with that. Gone (I hope) are the days of signing mercenaries like Di Maria. Instead we're focusing on players who want to be here and not just for the fat pay cheques (Sanchez) although obviously that helps.
I don't see any correlation with signing young players with resale value because we don't sell anybody. Quite the opposite in fact. We may take punts on players like James or Pereira but I don't think anyone can say we buy them to make a profit on them. I will agree with you about signing older players for shirt sales but I think any team would benefit from having players like Ronaldo, Cavani or Zlatan in their side. Hopefully we've learnt to stay away from players like Schweinsteiger and Falcao who were finished at a higher level.
I think we've had plenty of opportunities to get rid of players like Bailly but the club don't want to sell and I think we could all name 10 other players in a similar situation so I don't think it's any sort of business model from the club. Basically it boils down to us being useless in selling on players. I do agree there was a battle between Jose and the club in the transfer market but once again I'll say the club were right not to let Jose get his way. I think most are in agreement with this.
I have to say I'm from Belfast and I've never heard that saying
I really don't know what to make of the CM position. I'm at a loss for words. We can all speculate but if Ole is strengthening in all other areas of the pitch less the CM common sense says he thinks it's the area that needs less attention which would be very worrying in itself. Once again I can't see anything wrong with signing Bellingham types. We know he's not being bought only for us to sell him on at a profit. My biggest gripe is not signing them before they go to other clubs and then we have to pay premium value but would you really complain too much if Rice is valued at 90m and we don't buy him? We may be one of the richest clubs in the world but paying top notch for every position isn't the way to go. Especially if the player isn't worth the money.I have to say I'm from Belfast and I've never heard that saying
They used to say it about Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness running the IRA tbf, so it may be very outdated.
The two best managers in the league haven't exactly set the world alight so far, have they?
I'm not an Ole fanboi either, before anyone suggests I am. But let's be honest, those who want him out can do so all they want; the reality is the Glazers will do it once we really are on the decline, both in the league standings and in cups. Neither of those have happened so far.
I'm not an Ole fanboi either, before anyone suggests I am. But let's be honest, those who want him out can do so all they want; the reality is the Glazers will do it once we really are on the decline, both in the league standings and in cups. Neither of those have happened so far.
There's little expectation we should finish above City or Chelsea. If we finish 3rd of 4th they will be satisfied.
Fat pay cheques is exactly what Pogba wants. The fact hes holding out and isnt satisfied with the one on the tableI think from the clubs point of view the Mourinho experience was a big learning curve for them and since then the structure of the club has been changing. Especially regarding transfers and I can't really see anything wrong with that. Gone (I hope) are the days of signing mercenaries like Di Maria. Instead we're focusing on players who want to be here and not just for the fat pay cheques (Sanchez) although obviously that helps.
I don't see any correlation with signing young players with resale value because we don't sell anybody. Quite the opposite in fact. We may take punts on players like James or Pereira but I don't think anyone can say we buy them to make a profit on them. I will agree with you about signing older players for shirt sales but I think any team would benefit from having players like Ronaldo, Cavani or Zlatan in their side. Hopefully we've learnt to stay away from players like Schweinsteiger and Falcao who were finished at a higher level.
I think we've had plenty of opportunities to get rid of players like Bailly but the club don't want to sell and I think we could all name 10 other players in a similar situation so I don't think it's any sort of business model from the club. Basically it boils down to us being useless in selling on players. I do agree there was a battle between Jose and the club in the transfer market but once again I'll say the club were right not to let Jose get his way. I think most are in agreement with this.
I have to say I'm from Belfast and I've never heard that saying
Our fans are arguably patient to a fault. fecking Moyes was having his name sung at OT weeks before he was sacked.
Thats the benchmark they have now set it seems as owners. As long as we still have the fanbase and be able to bring in the revenue we do, they give zero shites.
I agree with most of what you've written and I feel that our real complaint about the Glazers shouldn't be about money we've spent or some model we have - but about the fact they've been unable to put in place the people who would select the right manager. Whatever we've tried has been not been successful, or successful enough, in four attempts.
However, while we obviously struggle to sell players - I think we have a bigger issue: Some weird fear of letting players go for free. We keep giving new contracts to fringe players. Maybe it's an attempt to keep some value attached to them to we can cash him on them, but if we fail to sell them we are just stuck with them.
Exactly. Every single one of them should not have got the job at the time they were appointed.
And yet we act like this is just a random coincidence. It's not. And Ole's replacement will be equally unable to do anything to win silverware. Because the problem is not the manager. The manager is a symptom.
Quite simply the Glazers are not willing to outspend City or, more importantly, restructure the club to put football first. They have no intention of even trying. Fourth is fine. Wenger did this every season for years and it worked very well.
Had City not become an oil state's PR bauble, we probably would have been champions last season and also under Jose. The world has changed from SAF's day and winning the league may be beyond us. Just dreaming that a superstar manager is going to waltz in and make it all work seems a bit simplistic. If that were the case it would have been done long ago.
And yes I know it happened at Liverpool. But Liverpool is run as a sports club, not as a cash machine. That's why Klopp went there and not here.
So well that they're now permament mid-tablers fighting for an Europa League spot. I mean... simply genius stuff.
Yeah, I don’t understand how anyone says we’re not patient - especially not when compared to the other big clubs out there