Why are United fans so oblivious to importance of good managers?

[Revan]

Kind of ironic some people saying we are too loyal to managers.

Alex Ferguson hand-picked a successor and asked the fans to back him during his final speech.

"I would like to remind you this club stood by me in bad times, the players and the staff," he said. "Your job now is to stand by the new manager."

We hounded said replacement out of the door before a year had even passed.

We had a perfect guy in the mould of Busby and Ferguson, and we chucked him overboard at the first sign of trouble. Ferguson would have been jettisoned too under the modern fanbase. It takes time to for a manager to impliment ideas. Klopp and Pep were wise to give the role a wide berth.

How he was perfect? Because he was Scottish or why?

 

[RedCheekz]

I think Ole has done a good job with signing players and removing deadwood.
But he’s not an elite manager and I don’t think he’s the man who is going win us titles/cups. I think it’s time he leaves.

 

[red woppit]

Wrong again.
You don’t finish second in the most competitive league in Europe without having some idea about tactics and if you can incorporate an attacking style and score a shitload of goals in the process because the general fan base of Manchester United demand it (maybe you just want 3pts regardless) then you are not doing too bad.
My gripe about Ole is that he is too nice with the players as a midfielder that cannot kick a ball properly and is a liability should be nowhere near the starting side and I cannot work that one out.

Perhaps he is too nice in the fact that he doesn't throw a player under the bus when things go wrong, but you are right that we have players who realistically shouldn't be in the team week in, week out.
I believe that he has been given an ultimatum by the owners,/board, that he must win silverware this season, consequently he seems reluctant to get rid of players who are only on the fringe of the first team squad, and probably have no real future at OT to the detriment of players like Hannibal, Elanga and Shoretire, who would benefit greatly from getting some minutes in the Prem, especially Hannibal, who I feel could come into the team now, and we wouldn't notice any decline in our player, in fact I think he would improve it. I appreciate that they still need to play in some under 23 matches, but getting some minutes in the first team would see them improve greatly I believe.

 

[Mickson]

Wrong again.
You don’t finish second in the most competitive league in Europe without having some idea about tactics and if you can incorporate an attacking style and score a shitload of goals in the process because the general fan base of Manchester United demand it (maybe you just want 3pts regardless) then you are not doing too bad.
My gripe about Ole is that he is too nice with the players as a midfielder that cannot kick a ball properly and is a liability should be nowhere near the starting side and I cannot work that one out.

Yes, you can. Bear in mind that his point tally often only gets you to third, fourth, or fifth place, but he came second this time because of the overall low point tally from our rivals. And yes, you can still come second. His tactics are, as far as I can see, to let our attacking players have freedom. We have arguably the best or one of the top 2 best squads in the league. Therefore, we will often win thanks to having better players and players bailing him out. he isn't stupid, he knows that giving some attackers freedom can be good and I think in Bruno's case, even great. But in the long run, you need to have a Galactico squad to even have a chance of winning the league with that outdated tactic. I can't see United finish even second this season, despite having an even better squad now and nothing points to us finishing even second tbf. Ole has so many tactical flaws it's starting to become unsustainable to even beat Everton or Aston Villa.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Ferguson made some mistakes (not very much), and Moyes surely was one. He simply did not have and develop the necessary mentality to manage an elite club. I still can't stop laughing when I see him celebrating that legendary draw against Fulham...

That gif is photoshopped btw. He celebrated when we went 2-1 up. Fulham equalized in added time.

 

[Red Star One]

Yes, you can. Bear in mind that his point tally often only gets you to third, fourth, or fifth place, but he came second this time because of the overall low point tally from our rivals. And yes, you can still come second. His tactics are, as far as I can see, to let our attacking players have freedom. We have arguably the best or one of the top 2 best squads in the league. Therefore, we will often win thanks to having better players and players bailing him out. he isn't stupid, he knows that giving some attackers freedom can be good and I think in Bruno's case, even great. But in the long run, you need to have a Galactico squad to even have a chance of winning the league with that outdated tactic. I can't see United finish even second this season, despite having an even better squad now and nothing points to us finishing even second tbf. Ole has so many tactical flaws it's starting to become unsustainable to even beat Everton or Aston Villa.

Spot on

 

[Bondi77]

Perhaps he is too nice in the fact that he doesn't throw a player under the bus when things go wrong, but you are right that we have players who realistically shouldn't be in the team week in, week out.
I believe that he has been given an ultimatum by the owners,/board, that he must win silverware this season, consequently he seems reluctant to get rid of players who are only on the fringe of the first team squad, and probably have no real future at OT to the detriment of players like Hannibal, Elanga and Shoretire, who would benefit greatly from getting some minutes in the Prem, especially Hannibal, who I feel could come into the team now, and we wouldn't notice any decline in our player, in fact I think he would improve it. I appreciate that they still need to play in some under 23 matches, but getting some minutes in the first team would see them improve greatly I believe.

You could be right regarding the young players and I think an argument could be made for Elanga suiting our play more than Sancho but that is not going to happen.
From what I have seen of Hannibal he looks a real talent and I could be wrong but I think a player in the U23s should be really tearing it up at that level.to warrant a spot in the first team as it is a massive step up

 

[Laurencio]

It has always irked me that some United fans refuse to believe that managers have levels just like players and you simply can't win with average manager who has no plan and tactical nous. We've seen the likes of Klopp, Pep etc. build teams that play identically dominating brands of football across multiple leagues. It's as if they have some sort of formula, a secret recipe that if given time and adequate resources will definitely result in successful teams that dominate games and win silverware. Why are some United fans and the board completely oblivious to this?

We aren't?

We tried for Pep, he went to Bayern. We tried for Klopp, he didn't like the whole disneyland pitch. We went for Van Gaal - who was brilliant with the Dutch national team and known to be an exceptional systems manager, but he was a bit shit and the football was boring. Then went for the most winning manager at the time Mourinho, who was OK for a year or so, but quite shit with the players.

So while waiting for Poch to make up his mind about us or spurs (heavily reported at the time), we hired a club legend with a decent enough domestic record as a stop gap who could placate the fan base for a bit. Turns out he did quite well, changed the attitude within the squad and got results, so we decided to give him a longer run. Since then he's brought back squad mentality, gotten in some really good players and had a few decent league finishes.

Now we're looking to see if he can also implement a system that makes us able to challenge for the title at least once, but preferably consistently. If he can't then he'll likely be replaced.

So to say that we aren't aware of how much the manager matters is not really accurate. We've been trying for years to find the right one - the board is far more guilty of not understanding the importance of role-players over marquee signings. We are still in need of midfielders that are hard working, positionally strong and skilled defensively - and we have been in need of that since Fergie's last few years. Which is an amazing thing to ignore given that the title is won every single year by teams with those kind of players in the squad.

That being said, I don't think anyone rational can deny that there are three managers in the premier who are in a league of their own right now and none of them manage man utd - which is a bit shit.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Because we don't know what its like to be successful while hiring and sacking managers, so United fans are terrified to sack the one manager that has been the best since Fergie.
Also If we sack Ole people fear we will hire the wrong manager and the worst will happen because we've experienced the this more than once already. Our worst = No top 4 and building a shit squad.

What we need to do is put ourselves in a position where hiring the wrong manager and the worst happening is actually still a decent season. For example if Madrid hires the worst manager they could possibly get they will still make top 4 and pass the group stages of CL and the most important thing is their squad will still be strong for the next manager to come and turn things around.

I think that is the problem and why we fear a manager merry go round. United fans from experience dont have that assurance like Madrid does that even if they hire the worst manager they will still make top 4 and the squad will still be strong for the next manager to come in and turn things around quickly.

The counterargument is that we risk entering a state of perpetual timidness where inaction seems to be the only viable choice. Change always entails risk, these two go hand in hand. But most times, change is a necessity. And when you become afraid of change, even though deep down inside you know that you must move on, you'll always find reasons not to take the dreaded step forward. Until the safety and the security you treasure turns into stagnation. Then you watch others pass you by and you're left wondering where the hell did it all go wrong.

I can guarantee you that if we settle for top-four finishes now, the most probable outcome is that we'll soon find ourselves outside the CL spots. We need to keep pushing for better things. It's also kind of tiring hearing people say that "if the next Pep/Klopp becomes available, i would trade Solskjaer for one of them" when, judging by the context of their posts, the truth is simple: No, they absolutely wouldn't. They would always prioritize the sense of security they feel now.

I mean, i can do it too. Let's say this happens back in 2015: "What guarantees are there that Klopp will be a good fit for us? He had a short 3-year cycle at Dortmund and by the end of it, all he left behind was ash and debris. He almost got the relegated and then he jumped ship!!! Is this long-term vision we want at United? Hipster manager, i'd rather stick with Solskjaer and allow him to see the rebuild through".

Or:" Pep who? The one managed to be successful in a certain environment and with the best player in the world accompanied by several other generational talents? What did he achieve at Bayern, outside his safety zone?".

I'm exaggerating, of course, but the point still stands. If you are so afraid of change, the next best-of-class manager will always remain elusive to you. You'll always find a reason not to take the risk. Then, he'll go to your rivals and you'll be left wondering "God, i wish we could find someone like him".

It is what it is, and we can't migrate the club to Italy or Spain. Our best guaranty is the quality of our team. In the end, what are we building it for? To win things, or to make up for the manager's shortcomings?

 

[RedPed]

By our fanbase but their last club stints would've suggested otherwise. Also, Jose's subsequent failure with Tottenham also suggests he was past it when we got him. Football tactics and management has evolved post pep and Klopp so, both of them were dianosours when we got them.

Maybe now they may be seen as 'past it' managers, moreso Mourinho but when they were taken on at United, I don't think many people thought we were employing duds. They still had an element of elite status about them. You can try and reframe history as much as you want but at the time, United had employed world class managers who were going to take us to the top. All this revisionism is quite easy when you have the advantage of hindsight isn't it?

 

[Gehrman]

Kind of ironic some people saying we are too loyal to managers.

Alex Ferguson hand-picked a successor and asked the fans to back him during his final speech.

"I would like to remind you this club stood by me in bad times, the players and the staff," he said. "Your job now is to stand by the new manager."

We hounded said replacement out of the door before a year had even passed.

We had a perfect guy in the mould of Busby and Ferguson, and we chucked him overboard at the first sign of trouble. Ferguson would have been jettisoned too under the modern fanbase. It takes time to for a manager to impliment ideas. Klopp and Pep were wise to give the role a wide berth.

Moyes in the mould of Fergie and Busby?

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is. They actually won trophies.

 

[MuFc_1992]

Maybe now they may be seen as 'past it' managers, moreso Mourinho but when they were taken on at United, I don't think many people thought we were employing duds. They still had an element of elite status about them. You can try and reframe history as much as you want but at the time, United had employed world class managers who were going to take us to the top. All this revisionism is quite easy when you have the advantage of hindsight isn't it?

So, you think we should never hire managers outside the club because of those two? That would seriously handicap us going forward

 

[tenpoless]

"I would like to remind you this club stood by me in bad times, the players and the staff," he said. "Your job now is to stand by the new manager."

It was the first time for us to have a new manager after 26 years. Things are different now.

We had a perfect guy in the mould of Busby and Ferguson

That's an insult to both.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

This is a horrible sentimental fantasy. If it were true Fergie would have an awful lot to answer for.

Fergie and Moyes have never even been particularly close. Where have you concocted this nonsense from?

"When we started the process of looking for my replacement, we established that several very desirable candidates were unavailable."

It is true, and Fergie tried to get Moyes in here as assistant manager since he was at Preston. The line you quoted was from the revised edition of his autobiography, which was conspicuously missing from the one that came out immediately after his retirement, before the Moyes thing went tits up.

The only candidate we were confirmed to approach beyond Moyes were Carlo Ancelotti who remarked years later, Pep Guardiola had that dinner with him in NY but never confirmed he was asked (he joked away that Fergie might have asked but he didn’t understand the accent) and Mourinho never confirmed that he was asked at that time (a fact he’d have loved to brag about, and if you believe Diego Lopez’s book then he was massively disappointed to be snubbed). Klopp was approached by Woodward with the Disneyland crap after Moyes were sacked, not by either Gill or Fergie.

If you look at the actual timeline of things, Fergie said he made the decision to retire shortly before Christmas, at the same time Moyes confirmed he was asked to delay his renewal with Everton. In early February he was invited to Fergie’s house and told in no uncertain term that he will be the next Utd manager. Fergie announced his retirement next month.

It was all there to see, and unless you buy that Moyes belonged on the list of candidates with ‘winning experience’ as stated on the official website at the time, there’s no fecking reason to believe that our list went Pep, Carlo, Mourinho, then Davey man.

It was pure sentimental nepotism.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Yeah it's sad, we're going to bottle one of our best chances to win the league post-Sir Alex.

Let's be real, these players are going nowhere with this coaching. Ole has brought in guys from his Ex-Cardiff and Molde days, as well as promoting unproven coaches like Carrick, McKenna, Fletcher and Ramsey. Mick Phelan was never a proper coach but did more of the donkey work.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

I think it's clear that Moyes was high on the list and under heavy consideration but he wasn't the "chosen one" like all the PR stuff suggested. The club sounded out a few managers before settling on Moyes, we know Fergie always respected him and believed in his ability but I'm not sure he was fully convinced. I actually think he realised fairly quickly that Moyes wasn't up to it. The Glazers were sold on Moyes because they thought he was the second coming of Fergie. They were going to get a manager that would be here for years and they would run the club same as they had done for the previous eight years. It was all about stability.

 

[Monkey bus]

It has always irked me that some United fans refuse to believe that managers have levels just like players and you simply can't win with average manager who has no plan and tactical nous. We've seen the likes of Klopp, Pep etc. build teams that play identically dominating brands of football across multiple leagues. It's as if they have some sort of formula, a secret recipe that if given time and adequate resources will definitely result in successful teams that dominate games and win silverware. Why are some United fans and the board completely oblivious to this?

I don’t think I’ve ever met a football fan, never mind a United fan, in my life who doesn’t see the importance of having a good manager. You must mix in different circles to me and most people.
Do you mean why do some United fans have differing views of what a good manager is?

 

[red4ever 79]

I think Ole has done a good job with signing players and removing deadwood.
But he’s not an elite manager and I don’t think he’s the man who is going win us titles/cups. I think it’s time he leaves.

40m DVB
30m Diallo
70M Sancho - doesn't even play him on the right

 

[RedPed]

So, you think we should never hire managers outside the club because of those two? That would seriously handicap us going forward

Not at all. I never said that. I was just responding to your assertion that LvG and Mourinho were washed up managers when we hired them. They clearly were not.

 

[Carolina Red]

No, he was using Haaland as an example.

As response to… “We wouldn't sign a Molde striker and expect him to excel upfront.” … that’s exactly who Ole is

 

[AndySmith1990]

Because we don't know what its like to be successful while hiring and sacking managers, so United fans are terrified to sack the one manager that has been the best since Fergie.
Also If we sack Ole people fear we will hire the wrong manager and the worst will happen because we've experienced the this more than once already. Our worst = No top 4 and building a shit squad.

What we need to do is put ourselves in a position where hiring the wrong manager and the worst happening is actually still a decent season. For example if Madrid hires the worst manager they could possibly get they will still make top 4 and pass the group stages of CL and the most important thing is their squad will still be strong for the next manager to come and turn things around.

I think that is the problem and why we fear a manager merry go round. United fans from experience dont have that assurance like Madrid does that even if they hire the worst manager they will still make top 4 and the squad will still be strong for the next manager to come in and turn things around quickly.

Can Ole really be considered the best manager we've had since Ferguson? Van Gaal and Jose actually won trophies, and Jose achieved our highest points tally in the league.

The praise Ole gets for this rebuild is overstated. He's not exactly made numerous shrewd signings on a shoestring budget, he's simply spent vast sums of money on established players. Buy good players, sell bad players. It's nothing that most of us wouldn't do in Football manager. It's not as if we couldn't have signed any of them without Ole in charge either. Fair enough he's improved the atmosphere since Jose left by being a nice guy. But again, not something I rate particularly highly as I'd expect that as a bare minimum for any manager.

Managing a club to success goes so far beyond buying a group of good players. It's about building a great team. That's where he's failing and why I don't consider him the best we've had since Ferguson, and that's even with the bar set fairly low by his predecessors.

 

[MackRobinson]

Think you're being very naive about that. I remember when there were talks about Klopp going to United - most people said he is unproven, that we should stick with Van Gaal, stand by your manager and all that, using the same arguments for Ole staying at the job you're using right now. If Klopp from Bundesliga was available right now, there would be a lot of Ole fans still saying that Klopp is overrated, he hasn't proven himself, that he'd have difficulty with this squad, that he won't do better than Ole, that we'd need to change formation and buy a whole new squad in order to accomodate it, yada yada. We've heard all of this before. This isn't our first rodeo.

This is completely made up. Most United fans would have gladly taken Klopp.

 

[MuFc_1992]

Not at all. I never said that. I was just responding to your assertion that LvG and Mourinho were washed up managers when we hired them. They clearly were not.

They were not elite managers who had bunch of clubs clamouring to hire them though. They were sorta like on the way down, with LVG coaching international team and Jose having a meltdown at Chelsea in his last season

 

[MuFc_1992]

I don’t think I’ve ever met a football fan, never mind a United fan, in my life who doesn’t see the importance of having a good manager. You must mix in different circles to me and most people.
Do you mean why do some United fans have differing views of what a good manager is?

So, is Ole a good manager who will lead us to Premier league title? If not why are we wasting out time and prime years of a really good squad

 

[Sandikan]

After the fact revisionism. Fergie knew for years he wanted Moyes to be his successor, as he saw much of himself in Moyes. He literally acted as a mentor throughout most of his career.

He may have half-heartedly 'tried' to get other candidates, but Fergie knew fine well that Moyes would be the only man in a position to take up his offer. Hell, he told Moyes not to renew his contract at Everton, and the reason for this seems rather obvious.

No doubt Fergie wanted to help Moyes the same way Jock Stein had helped him as a young manager.

It's not revisionism again. It's come out from many sources that we wanted many other choices first.
The fact the club said the next manager had to have experience of Europe and winning trophies shows where we were aiming.

We didn't time any of the approaches right and we're left pissing about for an option.

Moyes was probably about 5th or 6th choice and we attempted to put a brave face on it, as did many fans.

But loads of us were horrified when it broke.
It was just utterly ludicrous.

 

[Longshanks]

So, is Ole a good manager who will lead us to Premier league title? If not why are we wasting out time and prime years of a really good squad

Ask again in 6 months, we will know the answer by then I would imagine.

 

[MuFc_1992]

Ask again in 6 months, we will know the answer by then I would imagine.

I think we'll know sooner than that tbh.

 

[Longshanks]

I think we'll know sooner than that tbh.

Maybe, its all part of the fun of following a football side, sometimes you have to strap yourselves in for the ride and hope for the best it would be boring as hell otherwise wouldn't it?

You can't have success without failure, nor highs without lows. We don't know what lies ahead just enjoy it get behind the lads and stop worrying and whinging about something you have absolutely zero control over.

 

[Eriku]

It has always irked me that some United fans refuse to believe that managers have levels just like players and you simply can't win with average manager who has no plan and tactical nous. We've seen the likes of Klopp, Pep etc. build teams that play identically dominating brands of football across multiple leagues. It's as if they have some sort of formula, a secret recipe that if given time and adequate resources will definitely result in successful teams that dominate games and win silverware. Why are some United fans and the board completely oblivious to this?

What a crazy straw man. You’ll struggle to find anyone on here that dismisses the importance of managers, or that there are levels to them.

You say Ole has NO plan and NO tactical nous. I say you lack nuance and are erecting straw men.

It also doesn't help when forums like these are censored so much. Content from anyone with an opposing or critical view is deleted or threads locked.

Free speech and all that....

What absolute self-pitying garbage. Is that why we’ve had a thread called "we are an awfully coached team" for months and months?

Stop ruining discussion with these blatant and idiotic lies.

 

[simplyared]

The reason why we've kept Ole on board for so long is because:
He's legend status as a player.
He played under the biggest icon in the club's history.
He is doing things the "united way"

 

[TheRedHearted]

Anyone else think the conversation would be different if you we didn’t save 10 million on Sancho, and actually bought a DM this summer when it would have been priority?

 

[Rista]

It all comes from this idea that we're different to all other clubs. And since clubs with rich owners are impatient we should be different at all costs and should show it by "backing the manager". It is a 100% unsustainable approach these days if you want to be at the top. Things are extremely different to what they were 35 years ago.

 

[Acole9]

The reason why we've kept Ole on board for so long is because:
He's legend status as a player.
He played under the biggest icon in the club's history.
He is doing things the "united way"

The United way thing is the one that gets me. The football is awful, far from the so called United way.

 

[Monkey bus]

So, is Ole a good manager who will lead us to Premier league title? If not why are we wasting out time and prime years of a really good squad

Of course Ole’s a good Manager. Is he an excellent manager? I think a lot of fans have a split opinion right now in terms of Ole. Has Ole been the right man to get us this far? Id say yes when you look at the mess he inherited and the harmony he’s created.

Are we going to the win the big trophies under Ole? Possibly not, which is why this season will be make or break. I get that a growing number feel more break than make at the moment and his support by fans is no longer as vociferous.

Until he’s had a good opportunity to work with the squad he’s assembled this season, and more importantly, until there’s a credible candidate on the market to replace him then he’s going nowhere.

This is all irrelevant though as my reply to your initial post was asking which United fans don’t recognise the benefit of having a good Manager? I can’t think of any.

 

[NWRed]

Yes, it is. They actually won trophies.

Yeah, van Gaal won the FA Cup, then got sacked immediately as the previous 2 years had been so amazingly good.
And mourinho won the Europa League, whilst finishing 6th, and destroying squad harmony, and humiliating players, and putting his own ego before the club, and then getting sacked because it was just so good.

Whilst, in my opinion, finishing 6th, 3rd and 2nd without destroying squad harmony or boring us to death are greater achievements, the area in which Solskjaer has massively out performed his predecessors is in squad building, his signings have been of a much higher standard and far more successful so far.

Besides all that, the point I was arguing was you can't use coming from Molde as a stick to beat Solsjkaer with, he has (in my opinion) out performed managers with much better CVs and whilst I still have my doubts whether he can take us back to the very top, I think he deserves one more summer window to sort out central midfield.

 

[RedRover]

So, is Ole a good manager who will lead us to Premier league title? If not why are we wasting out time and prime years of a really good squad

This, for me, is the point.

As I've said on here before, I would love this to work. He was a great player in what was my favourite era as a fan. He also seems like a decent guy. But none of that should be relevant.

He didn't have the pedigree for the job and hasn't done anything to suggest that's going to change. I fail to see how the team can look no better than it did last season with the additions made. He dithers at the point in games that tough decisions are required and seems unable to make changes which will turn a game. The UEFA cup final said it all for me - completely out thought tactically. I also struggle to think of a player he's significantly improved in his time as manager.

A top manager would get more out of this squad and I think there are better managers available. Conte, would have this side challenging, in my opinion. The idea that we need to appoint a manager who's going to be here for a decade isn't realistic. The game has changed.

We're treading water as it stands, with one of the best players in the world in the team. It's a waste.

 

[RedRover]

Yeah, van Gaal won the FA Cup, then got sacked immediately as the previous 2 years had been so amazingly good.
And mourinho won the Europa League, whilst finishing 6th, and destroying squad harmony, and humiliating players, and putting his own ego before the club, and then getting sacked because it was just so good.

Whilst, in my opinion, finishing 6th, 3rd and 2nd without destroying squad harmony or boring us to death are greater achievements, the area in which Solskjaer has massively out performed his predecessors is in squad building, his signings have been of a much higher standard and far more successful so far.

Besides all that, the point I was arguing was you can't use coming from Molde as a stick to beat Solsjkaer with, he has (in my opinion) out performed managers with much better CVs and whilst I still have my doubts whether he can take us back to the very top, I think he deserves one more summer window to sort out central midfield.

How much of that is actually down to him?

The players we brought in this summer aren't joining United because he's at the helm and you don't have to be a genius to work out that Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho are going to improve you. He's shopping in Harrods, and because of that, he needs to deliver trophies and mount a proper title challenge.

 

[Abraxas]

That's the point though, It's obvious we can't compete with likes of Tuchel, Klopp and Pep so, shouldn't we at least be on the lookout to get someone who can compete? What's the point of spending so much to finish 4th when we are always likely to finish around that position anyway even if we sack ole and our new manager fails to live up to expectations. There is really no logical reason to stick with Ole and yes there is no guarantee that our next manager will be successful but there was no guarantee with Tuchel too because he'd only won french league with PSG, bottled CL final and won a few cups with Dortmund but you could tell with the way his teams played that they had a plan. I see the same with plenty of mid table Premier league teams and in Europe as well. Why are we not going for those managers?

You would have to ask the board, they are the ones making that decision are they not? It's not the fans so the tone of addressing fans as if they are the problem by entertaining a different opinion seems misplaced. Compared to most clubs the fans have never been particularly vocal around the stadium to induce decisions around management. That is simply the culture of the club that the manager is given a certain amount of patience.

If I had to guess as to why we're not going for "these managers" it is probably to do with the things I outlined previously, i.e. the overall process that the board were trying to address post Mourinho. That included overall footballing staff, recruitment, a realisation the squad needed overhauling and a transition between the manager having all power to a different footballing structure. If you look at the soundbytes and read around what comes out of the club this is clear.

Having one manager on board for that period makes a lot of sense, however in future a more devolved structure may actually remove this need for consistency of management because many facets are overseen by other key staff. You may get what you want at this point, that we don't retain much patience or accept incremental progress as acceptable. Teams like Chelsea have had such a structure for years so in this context you can see why they work the way they do and flip to the next hired gun.

 

[NWRed]

How much of that is actually down to him?

The players we brought in this summer aren't joining United because he's at the helm and you don't have to be a genius to work out that Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho are going to improve you. He's shopping in Harrods, and because of that, he needs to deliver trophies and mount a proper title challenge.

Well, it wasn't being done before he joined, and now it is, maybe it's coincidence.